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SolkaTruesilver
2010-04-23, 12:43 PM
Hi everbody. I had this little concept on my mind for some time, and maybe this forum might want to suggest additional elements.

First of all, one house-rule is allowed: if I take Feat X during my character development, and later on, a class feature also gives me Feat X automatically,then I am allowed to replace it with another like-themed feat. So please, people, don't worry about taking something that I'll get for free later on.

I wanna play a dirty fighter. The kind of fighter that grabs your testicles, twist them, and punch your face to a pulp while choking you to death. And I thought playing it as a dishonored dwarves would be a nice touch.

So, the initial built I thought was Barbarian 1/Fighter 4, to get meself some good feat and a strenght/speed bonus. (Nothing beats a running charge at high speed). I will probably be wearing spiked medium armor for the fun of it.

Also, probably the Wrestler PrC from Complete warrior. The one that allows you to knock people out, maybe kill them, if you pin them long ennough.

Any good feat proposition, or other PrC? the Wrestler PrC I think about only has 5, so maybe you could suggest something.

Also, I will play it with lots of wisdom. Lil' intelligence, but lots of wisdom. He is smart, but not book-smart. Think a midget Jayne.

subject42
2010-04-23, 01:01 PM
Dwarf - Obvious

Barbarian - Also obvious

Fist of the Forest - Gives you CON to AC and an improved unarmed strike. This is important because you can use it in a grapple.

Deepwarden 2 - CON instead of DEX for AC bonus. This is dwarfy to the extreme.

Reaping Mauler - You wanted it.

Mix and match as necessary.

SolkaTruesilver
2010-04-23, 01:07 PM
Dwarf - Obvious

Barbarian - Also obvious

Fist of the Forest - Gives you CON to AC and an improved unarmed strike. This is important because you can use it in a grapple.

Deepwarden 2 - CON instead of DEX for AC bonus. This is dwarfy to the extreme.

Reaping Mauler - You wanted it.

Mix and match as necessary.

Thanks for the First of the Forest. Where can I find it?

Also, I was thinking maybe taking Drunken Master. It fits perfectly in the character's design, methink. maybe not optimal, but will be fun as hell! :smallbiggrin:

subject42
2010-04-23, 01:12 PM
Fist of the forest is in Complete champion.

Drunken master makes me cry a little inside. That said, search these forums for "Fistbeard Beardfist".

Another thing to look at is the Poison Healer feat. There's a guy on here who figured out how to fill his trousers with serpents and then punch his pants whenever he was low on HP.

AtwasAwamps
2010-04-23, 01:13 PM
Also, probably the Wrestler PrC from Complete warrior. The one that allows you to knock people out, maybe kill them, if you pin them long ennough.



The Reaping Mauler is...meh. The prereqs make little sense and it negates the best way to gain grappling advantages: increased size. There's a rewrite here that I think works well: http://www.wakinglands.com/htm_files/prestige_classes_reaping_mauler.htm

Try that out. It's 10 levels and quite entertaining.

Sandstorm has a feat that lets you make an automatic grapple check after landing an unarmed attack. It's pretty nice.

A dip into swordsage at the right level will net you the grapple-related stance and a nice feat would be the one that does an extra d12 if you're pinning. This will let you activate a nice chunk of damage and your special RM tricks while grappling.

subject42
2010-04-23, 01:18 PM
Take a look at this thread. It will give you a good idea how to build a grapple-centric character with a barbaric bent.

Being Bane (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105525)

Vizzerdrix
2010-04-23, 01:25 PM
Here's one I've been working on. Maybe it'll give you a few ideas.



Lesser Grey Dwarf/ Half minotaur (total +1 LA)

Chaos Monk-2, Bear Barb-2, Fighter-4, Frostrager-5,

Feats:
Flaw-(inatentive)-Extra Rage
HD1-Duergar Expansion
Barb1-Toughness (Will Retrain for Imp. Toughness)
Chaos Monk1-Improved Unarmed Strike
Chaos Monk1-Stunning Fists
Barb2-Improved Grapple
HD3-Choke Hold
Chaos Monk2-Fiery Fist
Fighter1-Frozen Berserker
Fighter2-Improved Initiative
HD6-Earth's Embrace
Fighter4-Rattlesnake's Strike
HD9-Scorpion's Grasp
HD12-Duergar Expansion (stacks)/ Extra Rage (stacks?)
HD15-Superior Unarmed Strike
HD18-Skill focus: knitting (not really. Just a place holder. I don't know what to take this high up)


Stay the heck away from reaping mauler. It will only make you suck at grappling and the ability you want from it can be gotten as a feat. Heck, the feat is better than the ability.

SolkaTruesilver
2010-04-23, 01:35 PM
Stay the heck away from reaping mauler. It will only make you suck at grappling and the ability you want from it can be gotten as a feat. Heck, the feat is better than the ability.

Ok, what is that ability?

And why is Reaping Mauler considered to be so weak?

(I like the 10-level variant, however. Makes the abilities themselves quite powerful. But I only have 5 level lefts.. And I am not sure I want to enrage my GM by making them all-dips)

AtwasAwamps
2010-04-23, 01:37 PM
As a five level class, your DCs are very low. The feat Vizzerdrix is suggesting is Chokehold, which is in 3.0 OA (I think) and thus has your average DM looking a little wary of it (I think he made the same suggestion like, a year ago when I wanted to make a grappler and I couldn't really use the character because my DM wouldn't let me use OA material. Sucks.)

SolkaTruesilver
2010-04-23, 01:43 PM
As a five level class, your DCs are very low. The feat Vizzerdrix is suggesting is Chokehold, which is in 3.0 OA (I think) and thus has your average DM looking a little wary of it (I think he made the same suggestion like, a year ago when I wanted to make a grappler and I couldn't really use the character because my DM wouldn't let me use OA material. Sucks.)

OA's fluff is great, the mechanics can be broken very easily, however.

A 10-level RM would work, however. But I want to know, why does it make me a "lesser grapler"?

Oh, and please forget any overly fancy race or overly exotic PrC/alternate class.

subject42
2010-04-23, 01:43 PM
I think that chokehold was updated in Complete Warrior or Complete Champion.

AtwasAwamps
2010-04-23, 01:50 PM
OA's fluff is great, the mechanics can be broken very easily, however.

A 10-level RM would work, however. But I want to know, why does it make me a "lesser grapler"?

Oh, and please forget any overly fancy race or overly exotic PrC/alternate class.

The 10 level one doesn't. The five level one does, because it prevents you from gaining increased size, gives you weak options during a pin, and forces you to take prereqs taht are counter to your desire, which means you can't take the strong ones and delays your grappling strength AND cuts options off. Clever Wrestling is NOT a good feat, but can be useful in some situations.

EDIT: OA was the last update of Choke Hold, I think:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats

SolkaTruesilver
2010-04-23, 01:52 PM
The 10 level one doesn't. The five level one does, because it prevents you from gaining increased size, gives you weak options during a pin, and forces you to take prereqs taht are counter to your desire, which means you can't take the strong ones and delays your grappling strength AND cuts options off. Clever Wrestling is NOT a good feat, but can be useful in some situations.

Wait. Please, I don't have access to my books right now. Why does the 5-level prevent me from gaining increased size?

Weak option during a pin? What u mean?

Clever Wrestling.. isn't that the one that cuts in half the penalty for opposing someone bigger than me?

Eldariel
2010-04-23, 01:58 PM
Wait. Please, I don't have access to my books right now. Why does the 5-level prevent me from gaining increased size?

Weak option during a pin? What u mean?

Clever Wrestling.. isn't that the one that cuts in half the penalty for opposing someone bigger than me?

Clever Wrestling is a prerequisite for Reaping Mauler and requires Medium or Smaller Size. Guess what: When you become Large you lose the feat and thus the prerequisites for Reaping Mauler. The other issue is that the class does not really improve your Grapple-check (+2 over 5 levels; any Barbarian-class is better). Which sucks, especially for a Grappler class. And you still can't Grapple Larger-than-Normal creatures. Meh.

Grapplers need:
- Strength
- Size
- BAB
- Bonus to Strength-checks

Reaping Mauler gains you no Str, actively stops you from gaining Size only having full BAB and generic +2 to Grapple-checks. That's all, and that's why e.g. Level 5 Bear-totem Barbarian (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bearTotemClassFeatures ) does so much more. Pick Extra Rage along the way, Reckless Rage and rip things apart. Level 5 Bear-Totem Barbarian can have:
- Strength +6 (Reckless Rage)
- Improved Grapple
- Bear-Totem Bonus
- Enlarge

for a total of 5 BAB + 9 Str (29; 18 to start with, +1 level, +2 item, +6 Reckless Rage, +2 Enlarge) + 4 Improved Grapple + 4 Bear-bonus, +4 Large = +26. And frankly, Barbarian is the best dirty Fighter you can ever get anyways. Street Fighter (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) Barbarian ACFs would make the further levels somewhat worthwhile too, and combined with Fist of the Forests and Deepwarden, you'd just kick ass.

Nice trick would be to get Mountain Rage for inherent Large size while Raging. You can do this with Stoneblessed. So Dwarf Paragon 1/Stoneblessed: Goliath 3/Barbarian (Bear-totem, Mountain Rage) 5/Fist of the Forests 3/Deepwarden 2. This'd actually mean that even without Enlarge, you'd have the Grapple-check outlined above. And your UA Strikes deal 1d10 and yeah. Whirling Frenzy would get you something Flurryish too, if you feel so inclined. Then just go like Drunken Master or something, drink a lot and profit.

Vizzerdrix
2010-04-23, 02:02 PM
Yes. But when you no longer meet the requirements for a feat, you loose it until you do. The best way to get a boost for grappling is to up your size. If you up your size, you'll no longer be medium or smaller, so you loose the Clever wrestling feat. Since you no longer have the required feat, you loose Most of the Reaping Mauler goodies.


The Race combo I posted starts large, and can get bigger. That means better reach to snag someone and better bonuses. It also means better damage from bigger armor spikes and attacks while in said grapple.

I think sandstorm may have choke Hold. If not, it has several nice grapple related feats at least.


One day, you Ninjas will get what's coming to you! :smalltongue:

SolkaTruesilver
2010-04-23, 02:07 PM
Well, I am sorry, but the whole point is based on a stupid rule point :smallconfused:

The simple way is tell my DM about it, and ask for a modification of Clever Wrestling, and tada! You know, to play RAI, which is more important than RAW.

AtwasAwamps
2010-04-23, 02:13 PM
I think sandstorm may have choke Hold. If not, it has several nice grapple related feats at least.


It doesn't. Trust me, I looked. I spent a long time trying to find that feat.

Oriental Adventures, Page 61 is the only printed place I could find it :(

Eldariel
2010-04-23, 02:17 PM
Well, I am sorry, but the whole point is based on a stupid rule point :smallconfused:

The simple way is tell my DM about it, and ask for a modification of Clever Wrestling, and tada! You know, to play RAI, which is more important than RAW.

Well, that doesn't really change the fact that Reaping Mauler is very bad. The Fort-saves are:
1) Wisdom-based (you're a grappler so you need all the Str you can get)
2) Reaper Level-based (5-level class means they'll never catch up)

And they're Fort-saves and most of the class's abilities are actually about countering grapple and avoiding it (even Clever Wrestling) than actually being a good Grappler. Hell, the class has multiple Escape Artist-using abilities even though your Grapple-checks are without a doubt better when you have Improved Grapple, full BAB and all. Just...the class is bad at what it does. That's the real issue. And that's why rewrites are strongly recommended.

As I said, Barbarian is just better. And much more of a "dirty fighter" to boot. Some feats may interest you though. Anything Strength-based, really. And maybe Sneak Attack; after all, that's dirty fighting in a nutshell - hitting where it really hurts.


It doesn't. Trust me, I looked. I spent a long time trying to find that feat.

Oriental Adventures, Page 61 is the only printed place I could find it :(

It's the only printing, period. WoTC Feat Index says as much. Unfortunately, Choke Hold is Wis-based too. At least it's derived off ½ character level, but still far from good for a Grappler...

Keld Denar
2010-04-23, 02:27 PM
Desire to Grapple....high wisdom...

Sounds like you need a Tashalatoran Monk/PsyWar!

Stats should be Str > Con > Wis > Else

Start off with Monk2, picking up Imp Grapple as your 1st level bonus feat, and maybe Scorpion's Grasp (Sandstorm) as your 1st level general feat. Scorpion's Grasp gives you Improved Grab, allowing you to start grapples against anyone you punch. This is your dirty testicle grab move.

2nd level, take Monastic Training (PsyWar). Its in the Eberron Campaign Setting and allows you to freely Multiclass between Monk and PsyWar. Its also the prereq for Tashalatora

3rd level, take Tashalatora as your general feat. This one is in Secrets of Sarlona. It stacks your Monk levels with the one psionic class you took Monastic Training for, for the purpose of determining your UAS damage, your flurry, and your AC bonus. That means you get 3 of the best features of being a monk, without ACTUALLY having to take more monk levels. Your bonus Psionic feat should be Practiced Manifestor from Xpanded Psionic Handbook.

4th level is another PsyWar level, and all levels from now on will be PsyWar levels. You get another bonus feat, I HIGHLY recommend Link Power from Complete Psionic. This dramatically accelerates your hulk buffing rounds.

For powers, at 3rd level, take Inertial Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/inertialArmor.htm), at 4th level, take Expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm), and at 5th level, Grip of Iron (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/gripofiron.htm). For your first 2nd level power, you want either Hustle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hustle.htm), or Psionic Lion's Charge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psionicLionsCharge.htm). Past there, you are golden, but I'd recommend getting Claws of the Vampire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/clawsoftheVampire.htm) (works with your UAS) as your first 3rd level power. You'll get so many temp HP from this that you'll be REALLY hard to kill.

For feats, Snap Kick (Tome of Battle), Superior Unarmed Strike (Tome of Battle) and Improved Natural Attack (MM) are all solid choices. It might also be worthwhile to pick up a form of Constrict (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#constrict), either from Martial Study/Martial Stance to get Crushing Roots of the Mountain stance (Tome of Battle) or taking Shape Soulmeld(Kraken Mantle) with Open Lesser Chakra(Arms). The former does more damage, but only works when you are touching the ground. The latter doesn't come fully into play till level 12, but as a bonus gives you a swim speed. Your choice.

Combat at lowish levels is going to consist of manifesting Expansion linked with Grip of Iron, then running in and smashing people. If you feel like your attack bonus is low, you can skip straight to grapple, but otherwise just punch them and let Scorpion's Grasp do its thing.

Combat at mid levels is probably gonna happen when you start with a manifestation of Claws of the Vampire in the opening round, and after your turn, manifest Grip of Iron as an immediate action, linked to Expansion. This gets your main 3 combat powers up in a single round, allowing you to move up to your foe and start shredding faces in 6 seconds flat.