How much LA is this worth? (3.5)

[PersonMan]

I'm stating out a race and I can decide on how much LA their racial abilities are worth. Here they are:

-2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Int, -4 Cha, +18 Wis
+4 Natural Armor
Natural Spellcasting: Crystallions either cast as clerics of Crystal Casters* of their ECL, chosen at creation. This spellcasting stacks with that of class levels. Example here.
Racial Skills: Crystallions gain a +10 racial bonus on Knowledge(Religion) or Knowledge(Arcana) checks, chosen at creation. They also have a -4 to Diplomacy due to their fanaticism, but a +4 to Intimidate those of other beliefs. If a Crystallion is not raised among her people, these bonuses are ignored.

So, how much are these worth? I intend for them to be high ECL due to their abilities, and they have 10 RHD. 'Crystal Caster' is a homebrew class which I may or may not post here, depending on how lazy I am when faced with making their table.

Here's the fluff:

The Crystallions are a race of extreme fanatics. Created by a little-down deity known as the Most Crystalline, or the Crystalline One, they live in small, isolated pockets and wield incredible spellcasting ability. To keep from being sucked dry from the incredible amount of divine energy flowing into its followers, the Crystalline One requires the Crystallions to worship multiple times a day-usually around five-and go on monthly raids in which they bring back powerful creatures to sacrifice to their deity.

The Crystallions have light gray skin and small crystals embedded in their foreheads and the backs of their hands. Removing these kills the Crystallion, and is quite difficult, as the crystals grow into their bones. Also, if a Crystallion worships the Crystalline One, these crystals act as their holy symbol.

They're basically meant to be the antitheses of the Ethergaunt with lots of crystal flavoring.

[Milskidasith]

No amount of LA would make this balanced. The concept is very dumb. They get an automatic +9 bonus on the DCs of all cleric spells, they have 10+LA levels in cleric spells, and their other stat mods aren't cripplingly bad (in fact, they're probably OK for a cleric that isn't using DMM).

In short: This is not, can not, and will not ever be balanced if you give absurd wis bonuses *and* full casting.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Milskidasith and I have a habit of often disagreeing (Or so it seems :smalltongue:), so the fact that we agree here should be looked at especially closely.

This cannot be properly balanced. +18 Wisdom and what amounts to basically a free Gestalt class is far above and beyond reasonable.

Also, people need to start posting fluff with their races, so we can get an idea of what their intent actually is.

[PersonMan]

No amount of LA would make this balanced. The concept is very dumb. They get an automatic +9 bonus on the DCs of all cleric spells, they have 10+LA levels in cleric spells, and their other stat mods aren't cripplingly bad (in fact, they're probably OK for a cleric that isn't using DMM).

In short: This is not, can not, and will not ever be balanced if you give absurd wis bonuses *and* full casting.

I see. If I were to axe the cleric fullcasting and lower the Wisdom bonus to, say, +10, would that be more workable?


Milskidasith and I have a habit of often disagreeing (Or so it seems :smalltongue:), so the fact that we agree here should be looked at especially closely.

This cannot be properly balanced. +18 Wisdom and what amounts to basically a free Gestalt class is far above and beyond reasonable.

Also, people need to start posting fluff with their races, so we can get an idea of what their intent actually is.

I see. I'll edit the OP with the fluff.

[vasharanpaladin]

Here's an ECL calculator. (http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/shadows/Handbook/ECLcalc.html)

[Milskidasith]

I see. If I were to axe the cleric fullcasting and lower the Wisdom bonus to, say, +10, would that be more workable?

No. With 10 RHD, it's going to be useless as a character without casting, and with casting, it's going to be broken.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Honestly, your best bet is to choose a desired ECL, and build the race as you might build a monster (not using that calculator). Then assign a LA to it based on the final result.

[Milskidasith]

Here's an ECL calculator. (http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/shadows/Handbook/ECLcalc.html)

It's pretty terrible; a -2 str, -2 dex, +4 con, -4 cha, -2 wis, +30 int character is ECL 1.

Plus, the ECL calculator fails to take into account the fact that, you know, full casting levels make any RHD or LA given because of it negligable penalties.

[PersonMan]

No. With 10 RHD, it's going to be useless as a character without casting, and with casting, it's going to be broken.

I see. So, would reduced the RHD to, say, 3+1 level casting work? They'd start with one level of casting, 2 RHD and a lowered Wisdom bonus. They'd look more like this:

-2 Str, +2 Int, -4 Cha, +4 Wis
+2 Natural Armor
3 RHD
Cast as level 1 Cleric/CC, stacks with levels of the class

Djinn, if I do so, could you help me determine the ECL? I think it's a good idea, but I'm not very good at things like this(clearly visible in the problems with the race pointed out by you two), and will need help with it.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

The Crystallions are a race of extreme fanatics. Created by a little-down deity known as the Most Crystalline, or the Crystalline One, they live in small, isolated pockets and wield incredible spellcasting ability. To keep from being sucked dry from the incredible amount of divine energy flowing into its followers, the Crystalline One requires the Crystallions to worship multiple times a day-usually around five-and go on monthly raids in which they bring back powerful creatures to sacrifice to their deity.

Alright. So, there's no real reason to give them a huge Wisdom bonus. I'm also going to assume that these things are, as their name implies, made of crystal? If not, a bit about their physical appearance/qualities might help.

I intend to build this as a monster, and then take a look at it from there.

[PersonMan]

Physical appearance up.

Also, here is a base creature, with you twos' suggestions, without the spellcasting abilities.

Crystallion
Medium Monstrous Humanoid
Hit Dice 5d10+5 (30 HP)
Speed 30 ft. (6 squares);
Initiative: +5
Armor Class 15; touch 11; flat-footed 14
(+4 natural, +1 dex)
Base Attack/Grapple +5/+5
Attack Shortsword +6 melee (1d6, 19-20/x2)
Full-Attack Shortsword +6 melee (1d6, 19-20/x2)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks X
Special Qualities X
Saves Fort +5 Ref +5 Will +3
Abilities Str 10, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 15, Cha 7
Skills Knowledge(Religion) +9, Listen +10, Spot +10
Feats Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus(shortsword)
Environment Deep caverns, isolated cities
Organization Name (Number appearing)
Challenge Rating
Treasure X gold; X gems; X art; X magical items
Alignment Usually LE
Advancement by Crystal Caster/Cleric
Level Adjustment +?

Now, here it is in its original state:

Crystallion
Medium Monstrous Humanoid
Hit Dice 10d10+10 (60 HP)
Speed 30 ft. (6 squares);
Initiative: +5
Armor Class 15; touch 11; flat-footed 14
(+4 natural, +1 dex)
Base Attack/Grapple +10/+10
Attack Shortsword +10 melee (1d6, 19-20/x2)
Full-Attack Shortsword +10 melee (1d6, 19-20/x2)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks Spells
Special Qualities X
Saves Fort +8 Ref +8 Will +12
Abilities Str 10, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 29, Cha 7
Skills
Feats
Environment Deep caverns, isolated cities
Organization Name (Number appearing)
Challenge Rating
Treasure X gold; X gems; X art; X magical items
Alignment Usually LE
Advancement by Crystal Caster/Cleric
Level Adjustment +?

Spells: A Crystallion casts as a level 10 Cleric.

Spells Per Day:
0th: 6
1st: 7
2nd: 6
3rd: 5
4th: 5
5th: 4

[PersonMan]

I'll disappear for a while, going to post the Crystal Caster class, since you seem to be busy 'brewing the Crystallion as a monster.

[Flickerdart]

They could be balanced if, say, you had them cast as Clerics of their Racial HD and not ECL. Then their massive Wisdom bonus would be outweighed by whatever LA they had. In that case, an LA of 4 or 5 would be reasonable. They're also horribly min-maxed; I'd suggest reducing the WIS bonus a tad and maybe boosting up the INT.

[Magikeeper]

They could be balanced if, say, you had them cast as Clerics of their Racial HD and not ECL. Then their massive Wisdom bonus would be outweighed by whatever LA they had. In that case, an LA of 4 or 5 would be reasonable. They're also horribly min-maxed; I'd suggest reducing the WIS bonus a tad and maybe boosting up the INT.


I think that still falls under "broken or unplayable". Losing 4-5 caster levels is not worth +18 wisdom until you are near epic. Maybe even post epic. You would be a 14-15th level PC with access to 5th level cleric spells. You would have many spells and very high DC for them, but I don't think it would be worth it. A +9 mod increase is worth ...1 bonus spell per level? 1 per spell level, at most 5 of which will be of use. An actual 15th level cleric would probably have more spell slots in total. That cleric's highest level spells would have +3 DC over the creature from spell levels, so the net DC gain for that would only be +6 when talking about the PC's strongest spells. And the actual cleric would be using a far better spell or even one with no DC at all.
^- Working from memory.