PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] 20th level, one combat, go!!!



Person_Man
2010-04-23, 03:13 PM
Next weekend my group will be playing a one-shot combat. 20th level. All WotC 3.5 books and Pathfinder feats allowed (we'll be playing with 3.5 rules, but can import classes/PrC/feats that we like). No magazines, web material, homebrew, or 3rd party material. The DM has stated that the combat will be utterly ridiculous in it's difficulty level. There's going to be me and two other players - but they don't optimize much so I don't expect them to be much help.

There will be no pre-combat buffing. So I'll have 1-5 rounds to do pretty much anything I want (assuming I survive past the 1st round), but I have no idea what I'll be fighting.

Ideas?

AtwasAwamps
2010-04-23, 03:21 PM
...you're the person whose threads I turn to whenever I need help on melee builds.

My only suggestion is: Make it hit stuff. Make it hit so hard your DM feels it.

arguskos
2010-04-23, 03:24 PM
Dear god. Do something insane with casters. Like, I mean, triple 9s or something truly godawful insane, and just grind down your opponent with your superior casting power.

the humanity
2010-04-23, 03:27 PM
do nothing but 1-2 drops in many classes.

I mean, why not?

Eldariel
2010-04-23, 03:30 PM
Dweomerkeeper. Nested Time Stops. DMM: Persist. Celerity & Cunning Legacy Weapon (if you aren't allowed to have any constant magic effects online at the start that's the only way). Initiative maxing. Go Twice-Betrayer... Whatever he throws at you won't be enough and you're buffed for the whole day. And you just regain everything at the start of the next day. If you're allowed to, and almost required to, power-trip, then by gods power-trip!

jiriku
2010-04-23, 03:30 PM
Barbarian fist of the forest bear warrior with optimized initiative. Whatever you face, it will be much less frightening after it takes 400 damage while still flat-footed.

Alternately, a sorcerer 20. Lack of pre-buff is irrelevant when you can celerity+(rod of) maximized time stop + greater arcane fusion (buffspambuffspambuffspam)

Edit: Plus, a L20 sorcerer nova should be able to drop at least a thousand untyped AoE damage with no save or spell resistance in one round... if anything survives that, it deserves to kill you.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-23, 03:34 PM
Bard that grants everyone in part +20 to hit/damage (+10, doubled from Words of creation)?

or
Lumi with Multi-headed template (Lernean). He is now immortal.

Mythestopheles
2010-04-23, 03:35 PM
do nothing but 1-2 drops in many classes.

I mean, why not?

This I want to see being effective.

deuxhero
2010-04-23, 03:37 PM
No [...]web material,


Why?

Wizard/inchantrix/tainted scholar is win*3 as always.

Pathfinder summoner (use the earliest version you can find) can be fun.

Amphetryon
2010-04-23, 03:38 PM
Binder/Bard/Scion of Dantalion. Use Boomerang Daze combined with Dahlver-Ner vestige. I've seen the DC on the former pumped up to the mid-50s without significantly impairing overall power. Multiple daze effects will make your party better as a whole.

Masaioh
2010-04-23, 03:38 PM
Barbarian with the Insectile and Multi-headed templates. Take Multiweapon fighting, and triple-wield Minotaur Greathammers.

Deth Muncher
2010-04-23, 03:56 PM
Artificer?

Keld Denar
2010-04-23, 03:57 PM
When you say no prebuffing, do you mean ABSOLUTELY NO BUFFS PERIOD, as in buffs will be stripped at the door? or are like, 24+ hour duration buffs ok? That changes things a lot.

I'd do Wizard5/DivineOracle10/X5

Divine Oracle gives you continuous Foresight, meaning that you are NEVER flatfooted. Thats important in a fight where you will have absolutely no prebuffage. That allows you to cast immediate actions (like Celerity) in the opening round of combat which will probably affect the overall outcome of the combat. Use Celerity to get a Time Stop up, get some tastey buffs floating and Gate in something BIG.

That should at least treat you well. Items should probably focus on boosting initiative and increasing action economy (Belt of Battle does BOTH, Circlet of Rapid Casting helps as well), as well as giving continual immunities, especially vs stunning and [Death] effects.

Eldariel
2010-04-23, 04:02 PM
Divine Oracle gives you continuous Foresight, meaning that you are NEVER flatfooted. Thats important in a fight where you will have absolutely no prebuffage. That allows you to cast immediate actions (like Celerity) in the opening round of combat which will probably affect the overall outcome of the combat. Use Celerity to get a Time Stop up, get some tastey buffs floating and Gate in something BIG.

Cunning Legacy Weapon does that too; there's one premade one, Mau-Jehe, with the ability which saves 10 levels. Of course, if Surprise Round does happen... Oh, and Contingent Spells are items so Contingent Time Stops/Celerities are a good idea.

And I'd definitely go Twice-Betrayer. Though Dweomerkeeper is in a web enhancement now that I think about it so it might not be allowed, so you'll have to "make do" with Domain Stack, Shadow Weave Magic and all that.

Azernak0
2010-04-23, 04:13 PM
Binder/Bard/Scion of Dantalion. Use Boomerang Daze combined with Dahlver-Ner vestige. I've seen the DC on the former pumped up to the mid-50s without significantly impairing overall power. Multiple daze effects will make your party better as a whole.

Hmm, what does a build like that look like?

Amphetryon
2010-04-23, 04:18 PM
Hmm, what does a build like that look like?

Killoren Bard 1/Binder 3/Hexblade 4 (Dark Companion)/Blackguard 3/Warchanter 9 looks doable at first blush. I didn't really crunch the numbers thoroughly, but it's a riff on one of Person_Man's own guide builds.

Il_Vec
2010-04-23, 04:22 PM
For a thing like that, I'd try triple nines, or double nines at least.

Jack_Simth
2010-04-23, 04:26 PM
What's your cheese tolerance?

Wizard//Incantatrix.
1) Persistent Spell(Time Stop).
2) Rest.
3) Make a form around your opponent with Wall of Stone.
4) Use lots of Wall of Stone spells to put an absurd amount of rock over your opponent.
5) Use Transmute Rock to Mud to make the Walls of Stone fall into the form... as mud.
6) Use Dispel Magic to turn the mud back into rock, sealing your opponent in a stone tomb.
7) Persistent Spell(Time Stop) - yes, they're technically nestable.
8) Rest.
9) Ready an action for another Persistent Spell(Time Stop) if the opponent escapes.

Akal Saris
2010-04-23, 04:31 PM
Barbarian with the Insectile and Multi-headed templates. Take Multiweapon fighting, and triple-wield Minotaur Greathammers.

This is my favorite suggestion so far.

My suggestion: go with a class that is easy to make and still effective. Dread Necro or Beguiler 20, for example, so you don't need to pick spells but are still effective. Don't make your own gear if you ever want to finish the character.

Alternatively, truenamer 20. Speak My Name And I Am There! :smalltongue:

Thrawn183
2010-04-23, 04:33 PM
Well, you first need to tell us just how set you are on winning. If winning isn't a must then you can see just what kind of craziness you can get to.

Curmudgeon
2010-04-23, 04:34 PM
Everyone's looking for a way to get big magical guns going as fast as possible. I'd go for avoidance instead.

Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight plus Darkstalker feat (Lords of Madness, page 179) plus (of course) ridiculously high Hide. (Get yourself a custom +30 item, even if you've got to take Craft Wondrous Item and UMD the whole thing into existence yourself.) See Invisibility and True Seeing aren't going to help against Hide.

Max out Spot, add Combat Reflexes, and very high Initiative just to be on the safe side. Nerveskitter will boost your Initiative modifier, and Rules Compendium made triggering that spell from a wand be an immediate action that (with the erratum) you can use even when flat-footed, so go into the thing with a Nerveskitter wand in hand.

The combat itself is an afterthought, unless somebody's using nukes at 10 paces. :smallsmile:

Mushroom Ninja
2010-04-23, 06:33 PM
No buff rounds? Celerity an Empowered Timestop and make buff rounds!

Also, since this isn't the sort of chance one gets often, I'd suggest at least double 9th level spells. Wizard 4/Binder 1/Ur Priest 2/MT 8/Anima Mage 5 could be entertaining...

BobVosh
2010-04-23, 06:42 PM
Have you ever gotten to play your Haberdash? This could be his time to shine.

Person_Man
2010-04-23, 09:58 PM
Dweomerkeeper. Nested Time Stops. DMM: Persist.

That's definitely a very strong option, and one of the first things I thought of as well. But to a certain extent I consider Time Stop "cheating," and I fear that if I rock out the Time Stop that the DM is just going to have someone use an Immediate Action Counter Spell and/or their own action advantage shenanigans. But I probably will end up keeping a Time Stop in reserve just in case.



When you say no prebuffing, do you mean ABSOLUTELY NO BUFFS PERIOD, as in buffs will be stripped at the door? or are like, 24+ hour duration buffs ok? That changes things a lot.

First round of combat will essentially be the first round of the character's existence. No pre-anything unless it's a normally continuous ability, like a stance or an aura.

And to further clarify, the DM will obviously be reading all of our character sheets (including equipment, spells, etc) days before the game starts. So if he sees common hax like DMM and Time Stop on the character sheet, he'll just up the difficulty to adjust, and add off map reinforcements on round 2 if I destroy everything in round 1. The key will be to do something that is unexpected, powerful, and fun at the same time, without blowing every resource on the first round. A very hard needle to thread when playing with a DM that's been playing longer then I have (20 years).

But you make a very valid point - getting Foresight and/or boosting Initiative (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6000.0) to ridiculous levels will definitely be important.



Killoren Bard 1/Binder 3/Hexblade 4 (Dark Companion)/Blackguard 3/Warchanter 9 looks doable at first blush. I didn't really crunch the numbers thoroughly, but it's a riff on one of Person_Man's own guide builds.

A debuffer of some sort would be interesting. I assume you're using Doomspeak + Hex + Dark Companion + Aura of Despair + Aura of Sadness + Fear Effects for a -20 (or more) penalty to my enemy's Save, followed by something that kills.

Another great idea, but unfortunately IIRC Doomspeak can't be quickened. So I'd have to depend on someone else to in my party to kill my enemy, and I couldn't reliable kill multiple enemies in the same round.



Have you ever gotten to play your Haberdash? This could be his time to shine.

Oh yeah - I've played him, and by 3 other strangers who read my post were nice enough to play various riffs on the build and then PM'd me with their thoughts (which I always appreciate, btw). Very fun and flexible. And Factotum 19/Master of Masks 1 works fine. But at the moment I'm sick of Trip/Grapple/Sunder/blah blah blah, which I've played to death at this point.



Well, you first need to tell us just how set you are on winning. If winning isn't a must then you can see just what kind of craziness you can get to.

Oddly, I rarely feel the need to win combat. I just want to survive and have a good time. So uber can take a back seat to crazy awesome.



For a thing like that, I'd try triple nines, or double nines at least.

Yeah. Having thought about it more, I'm thinking I want 9th level maneuvers and 9th level spells (either divine or arcane will do). I've got a couple of weird combos I haven't tried yet. I forget, is there a way to do that without Ur Priest, Apostle of Peace, or Sublime Chord?

Amphetryon
2010-04-23, 10:17 PM
If you can use Boomerang Daze to hit multiple foes in a round, the debuffer Bard concept I posted can theoretically be effective BFC.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-23, 10:21 PM
Why not try something else?

Shapechange + Veil of Undeath

Choose a form with regeneration, and get immunity to the regeneration bypasses.

You're now immune to damage. Possible to do round 1 with a greater rod of quicken.

From there, Spell Turning to reflect targeted spells, an Effulgent Epuration (to absorb any attempt to counterspell your magic, as counterspells target the caster), and go to town.

For build?

Wizard 3 / Ardent 2 / Cerebremancer 10 / Wizard +3(Or PrC) / Archmage 2

Get Greater Dispel as a SLA (so it can't be countered).

Now you can't be hurt, hit with most effects undead are immune to, and you are next to immune to spells.

Do what you can from there. I've given you a defense.

TheMadLinguist
2010-04-24, 01:15 AM
Play a sharn/Iot7V.

Il_Vec
2010-04-24, 01:45 AM
I usually go with Ur-priest, it is one of my favorite concepts, so I wouldn't know. =)

imperialspectre
2010-04-24, 10:20 AM
A Swordsage/Ur-Priest/Ruby Knight Vindicator build would work pretty well for getting 9th-level maneuvers and spells. You would need either a dip in Crusader, a ToB legacy weapon, or a couple feats to get the Devoted Spirit prereq for RKV; the 1-level Crusader dip gives you a boost to your Fort save that helps you qualify for Ur-Priest.

This build lets you easily incorporate Curmudgeon's stealth recommendations, since you get some stealth support from the swordsage and RKV abilities. You can also become a very efficient caster by grabbing a level of Prestige Paladin (of Tyranny, so you meet all your alignment restrictions) and Battle Blessing, letting you cast all spells on your list as swift actions. Combine that with the RKV ability to get extra swift actions by spending a turn undead attempt, and you're actually stronger than many DMM-based clerics. '

The final build would look something like Swordsage 4/Crusader 1/Ur-Priest 2/Prestige Paladin of Tyranny 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/Swordsage 2. Your IL for Swordsage maneuvers is 18, your IL for Crusader maneuvers is 15 (so you could trade out the last level of Swordsage, still have 9th-level maneuvers, and grab a couple 8th-level Crusader maneuvers by grabbing an extra level of Crusader at the end), and your Ur-Priest progression gives you 9th-level divine spells. You have strong Wisdom synergy for casting, maneuver DCs, and AC, and with a couple of nightsticks you'll be able to nova a bunch of buff spells in the first round of combat (by spamming swift actions and recovering them).