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View Full Version : [3.5] Optimizing with class combo feats.



Mythestopheles
2010-04-23, 03:41 PM
I've been checking out all the different class combo feats (ascetic rogue, daring outlaw etc.). As well as the duel progression PrCs. I'm wondering how many of these you can stack up and still have a good character.

All sources, any level. And preferably relatively low on the cheese.
Lets see what can be made.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-04-23, 04:04 PM
The problem is that you are going to need one 'base' class, then one or two 'dip' classes, then the feats to let the 'base' class and each 'dip' class stack.

Most often, the 'crossed' classes are mutually exclusive.

For example: Rogue, can get Ascetic Rogue with a one-level dip in Monk, and Daring Outlaw with a minimal investment in Swashbuckler.

However, to be able to take advantage of both feats, you need to continue progression as a Rogue. But the whole point of Daring Outlaw is to be able to continue as a Swashbuckler with full BAB while getting Sneak Attack. And Ascetic Rogue just gives you unarmed damage progression of monk + rogue. But if you don't use a weapon, most of your Swashbuckler class abilities are kinda worthless.

See how they really aren't all that good when trying to make a 'blend'?

Human Paragon 3
2010-04-23, 04:09 PM
Rogue/Fighter/Swashbuckler can get sneak attack and fighter feats on a swashbuckler chassis as long as you're willing to take weapon spec.

Maybe Rogue 1/Sneak Attack Fighter 5/Swashbuckler X

That would give you even better sneak attack than a strait rogue. The fighter feats replace themselves.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-04-23, 04:18 PM
Rogue/Fighter/Swashbuckler can get sneak attack and fighter feats on a swashbuckler chassis as long as you're willing to take weapon spec.

Maybe Rogue 1/Sneak Attack Fighter 5/Swashbuckler X

That would give you even better sneak attack than a strait rogue. The fighter feats replace themselves.

Actually... not. The Fighter/Swashbuckler feat only gives you access to feats that require Fighter levels. It doesn't actually give you any bonus feats. You'd be doing better as Rogue/Swash-x

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-04-23, 09:01 PM
Your best bet to benefit from one of these dual feats and similar PrC are Master Spellthief, Caster of choice, Spellthief, and Unseen Seer. If you want to get really silly, jump into every single base class arcane caster you can, hit Ultimate Magus 10 and jump around casting PrCs for great justice caster level fun. Nothing says "love" like a 124 CL Holy Word:smalltongue:

In all seriousness, though, you could probably get some mileage out of Daring Outlaw and Ascetic Rogue if you went Swashbuckler 3/Monk whatever is needed (possibly 0, depending on the wording of the feat)/Rogue X-(3+whatever). Assuming you can get by with Monk 0, you may want to go Swashbuckler 4 for seduction and +16 BAB pre-epic. I personally find the Rogue special abilities offer more than Swasbuckler has at around the same levels of play.

EDIT: Just checked the Ascetic Rogue feat, and you can get by with a whopping zero levels of monk. Eats another feat for IUS, but it's probably worth it in this case. Other feats that work on similar principles are also probably going to be at least decent picks, assuming whatever else you use to qualify other than the intended class is at least half-way decent itself.

Pluto
2010-04-23, 09:40 PM
Unless I'm terribly off base, "Stacking" levels of two classes to determine the numeric effects of specific class abilities means the effective class levels granted by Bloodline levels become relevent in determining class features.

So something like a Rogue 10/Scout 3/Swashbuckler 3/Ranger 1 with a Major Bloodline could get Sneak Attack like a 19th level Rogue and Skirmish like a 23rd level Scout.

Akal Saris
2010-04-23, 10:21 PM
Here's a Bardadin! I tried to cram almost every ACF I could find into it too :P I'm actually quite pleased with the results!

Billy the Wee Singing Paladin, LG Strongheart Halfling Bard 2/Paladin 18

What does he get? BAB +19, 18d10 HPs, 2 bard spells (1 of them is the boost to inspire courage), full smite evil progression, full bardic music progression and 20 bardic musics/day, 18th level paladin mount (Celestial Young Adult Gold Dragon!), can rebuke dragons, replaces Remove Disease with more uses of Inspire Greatness, has an additional 20/day Inspire Courage attempts (for 40/day total), tons of turn undead and high saves, and standard mounted charger feats.

Assuming standard items, inspire courage is at around +11 and can grant either +11 att/dmg or +11d6 Sonic damage (Battle dragon heritage) as a swift action.

ACFs: Drakkensteed Mount (Dragon magic), Rebuke Dragons (Dragon magic), Harmonious Knight 1, Harmonious Knight 9, Planar Paladin 6, Holy Warrior Spells-less Paladin 4/8/11/14 (Complete Champion), Divine Bard (optional), Paladin of Freedom (optional), Cityscape Paladin (replace survival type skills with social skills, but keep ride)

Stats:
Str: 14
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 8
Cha: 16

Feats:
1: Dragontouched (Counts as dragonblood race and a sorcerer for feats)
1B: Draconic Heritage: Battle Dragon (Perform is a permanent class skill!)
2B: Song of the Heart (+1/+1 to Inspire Courage, lose Inspire Competence - EBCS ACF)
3: Devoted Performer (C. Adv. - Stack classes for smite evil and bardic music/day, multiclass freely)
6B: Mounted Combat
6: Initiate of Milil (Champs of Valor - stacks paladin and bard for power of bardic music
9: Dragonfire Inspiration
10B: Ride-by Attack
12: Spirited Charge
14B: Awesome Smite
15: Dragon Mount (Young Adult Gold Dragon)
18B: Law Devotion (or another divine feat)
18: Words of Creation (requires raising Int first)

Godskook
2010-04-23, 10:42 PM
A Sorcadin can, with non-horrible pain, qualify for both Ascetic Mage and Knight. He can also make use of both, although the former requires going armor-less to get his SAD-stat to AC, and the later requires being an unarmed striker. Gets better if you're allowed to UMD a Relic, cause you can then get a full 20 monk levels of damage without ever taking a level of monk(+5 belt, +5 relic, +4 SUS, +4 Tattoo, +2 Ascetic Knight). Would get a +3 AC from his effective monk level too.

The feats could be used better, but the build can use them, especially if you're going gestalt, where you can squeeze the feats in better and get swordsage AC instead of the Monk's.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-04-23, 11:06 PM
A Sorcadin can, with non-horrible pain, qualify for both Ascetic Mage and Knight. He can also make use of both, although the former requires going armor-less to get his SAD-stat to AC, and the later requires being an unarmed striker. Gets better if you're allowed to UMD a Relic, cause you can then get a full 20 monk levels of damage without ever taking a level of monk(+5 belt, +5 relic, +4 SUS, +4 Tattoo, +2 Ascetic Knight). Would get a +3 AC from his effective monk level too.

The feats could be used better, but the build can use them, especially if you're going gestalt, where you can squeeze the feats in better and get swordsage AC instead of the Monk's.

Unfortunately, that is ultimately Fail, because you loose too many caster levels to get 9th level spells. You loose 2 on Paladin and 1 on Monk for 3 lost caster levels. For a Sorcerer, this really blows.

Ascetic Knight is Pal/Monk... umm... yea. It doesn't get any benefit from going Sorcerer, who has individual spells more powerful than this combination.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-04-24, 12:09 AM
Unfortunately, that is ultimately Fail, because you loose too many caster levels to get 9th level spells. You loose 2 on Paladin and 1 on Monk for 3 lost caster levels. For a Sorcerer, this really blows.

Ascetic Knight is Pal/Monk... umm... yea. It doesn't get any benefit from going Sorcerer, who has individual spells more powerful than this combination.

Well, at least with the Ascetic X feats, you don't actually need levels in monk to qualify, which would leave us with an unarmored and unarmed sorcadin who just happened to blow three feats on getting some unarmed strikes.

Pluto
2010-04-24, 12:12 AM
Well, at least with the Ascetic X feats, you don't actually need levels in monk to qualify, which would leave us with an unarmored and unarmed sorcadin who just happened to blow three feats on getting some unarmed strikes.

Problem is that Ascetic Knight doesn't really do anything in a Sorcadin (well 1d6 unarmed damage, I guess) and Ascetic Mage doesn't give the Cha-to-AC part without Monk levels.

Godskook
2010-04-24, 12:28 AM
Unfortunately, that is ultimately Fail, because you loose too many caster levels to get 9th level spells. You loose 2 on Paladin and 1 on Monk for 3 lost caster levels. For a Sorcerer, this really blows.

Ascetic Knight is Pal/Monk... umm... yea. It doesn't get any benefit from going Sorcerer, who has individual spells more powerful than this combination.

1.Ascetic Feats can be qualified for with a fanged ring at 10k, or taking IUS. No actual monk levels are required(and you can note that they aren't used in my calculation either).

2.Sorcadin requires Paladin 2 for the Cha to all saves. So yes, 9ths@ECL20, but that's typical for a gish.

3.@Pluto, a monk's belt supplies the "Wis to AC" that Ascetic Mage converts.

4.I didn't say it was a *good* combo, but it does utilize both feats toward's an existing build's(Sorcadin) primary schtick(melee).

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-04-24, 12:35 AM
Problem is that Ascetic Knight doesn't really do anything in a Sorcadin (well 1d6 unarmed damage, I guess) and Ascetic Mage doesn't give the Cha-to-AC part without Monk levels.

Cheat and use a monk's belt perhaps?

EDIT: Ninja'd due to failing to read everything.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-04-24, 12:45 AM
1.Ascetic Feats can be qualified for with a fanged ring at 10k, or taking IUS. No actual monk levels are required(and you can note that they aren't used in my calculation either).

2.Sorcadin requires Paladin 2 for the Cha to all saves. So yes, 9ths@ECL20, but that's typical for a gish.

3.@Pluto, a monk's belt supplies the "Wis to AC" that Ascetic Mage converts.

4.I didn't say it was a *good* combo, but it does utilize both feats toward's an existing build's(Sorcadin) primary schtick(melee).

When the choice comes to blowing a feat for casting stat to AC, or a Metamagic Feat... AC takes hind teat. For AC, I have Mirror Image, Greater and a Lesser Cloak of Displacement. Miss Chance > AC in most cases. Or, a simple Invisibility to keep them from seeing you in the first place. Or Phantom Steed/Overland Flight to stay out of reach.

Most things you need to worry about don't target AC. Those that do, have multiple superior ways for a sorcadin to deal with it than a few paltry AC.

The Rabbler
2010-04-24, 12:53 AM
Gets better if you're allowed to UMD a Relic, cause you can then get a full 20 monk levels of damage without ever taking a level of monk(+5 belt, +5 relic, +4 SUS, +4 Tattoo, +2 Ascetic Knight).

it specifically states that the relic does not stack with the belt. and I think the tattoo doesn't either, but I'm not sure.