Summon Construct? Need help

[WildPyre]

I was looking at the 3.5 summon monster spell... I'm wanting to allow the wizard in my game to summon a construct version rather than a fiendish or celestial version of some of the creatures on the lists.

My first thought was to simply switch the "Fiendish" or "Celestial" template with the "Effigy" template, but I'm afraid that might make them too powerful.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Perhaps just refluffing the current creatures, or altering the templates slightly?

[sigurd]

What will be the origin of the constructs? Do you have any rationale in mind?


Sigurd

[WildPyre]

Rather than drawing a creature directly from an aligned plane, they're drawing essence from the plane of elemental creation, so instead of than pulling through a creature they're pulling through a chunk of raw creation...

So while the way the spell currently works, with summon monster 1 you get say, a celestial fire beetle, with this you could form the raw essence of matter into a construct fire beetle.

It seems more humane to me to form a mindless automaton than you just temporarily uproot a celestial or divine creature from it's home and throw it into battle, or have it do some other task. It also seems less of a stretch to me for this thing to blindly follow your commands. I'm not suggesting replacing the spell entirely, but I'd just like to offer it to wizards in my game as a more humane substitute, and a bit of a fad, allowing young mages to argue over who can form the coolest construct.


I've got no problem with the flavoring and reasoning... I'm just trying to look at the numbers at this point and keep it balanced.

[Kamai]

Have you taken a look at the psionic power Astral Construct? The resistances that Fiendish and Celestial are probably balanced with construct traits, maybe also granting SR at the same rate as Fiendish and Celestial templates. That is just a really rough guess, however.

[Fizban]

Ooh, ooh! I have a whole pile of notes on this idea that I never finished, mostly because it would require a DM to decide what to allow. I shall spoiler it for you here:

go through lists of constructs and golems and estimate some summon/concentration summon/replacement summon/calling spells
golems (rough order): magma core, force, stained glass, brass, web, mud, rope, brain, clay, stone, ice, ruby (psionic), iron, dragonflesh, dragonbone, drakestone, demonflesh, ironwrym, hellfire

constructs: animated objects (CR 1/x through 8), clockroach, nimblewright, slaughterstone evicerator/behemoth, juggernaut, cadaver collector, hommunculi, caryatid column, effigy creature, ice beast (has spell line already), dustform, too many to recall

summon I-x lines:
animated object (varying materials?)
ice beast (see frostburn)
effigy creature
dustform creature (bonus: bludgeoning crit death means little with short duration)
golem? (need to index all golems first)

calling: compare to call inevitables, try 1 hour duration. use with individual constructs, should probably only work with intelligent, might summon uncontrolled and require outside spell to influence instead

replacement: try for powerful individual choices (slaughterstone, high end golems), compare to planar exchange and polymorph subschool

concentration: as replacement, try with highest end uses, compare power with elemental monoliths and summon elemental. might see use with animated objects at lowest levels

summon individual: longer duration summon could see use with hommunculi for scouting

MMI-V, fiend folio, xph, frostburn, sandstorm, draconomicon, planar handbook?

alternate tiering method: summon/temporarily enchant construct or constructs of value Xgp or less, a la the eberron artificer's weapon/armor infusions.
weapon augmentation specs:
1 minute casting time, 10 min/level duration, expensive component
lesser, 2nd, 20gp, 10,000gp limit, available at 3rd level
normal, 4th, 100gp, 70,000gp limit, available at 8th level
greater, 6th, 200gp, 200,000gp limit, available at 14th level

armor is similar but has 1/2 the limit

if summoning any construct of choice is too powerful, spell could instead temporarily power the unenchanted body of the construct. these usually cost quite a bit, and if the construct was destroyed, the body would be wasted, giving a cost to use of the spell. transportation would be an issue, requiring either shrink item, or having the spell instead use a miniaturized replica of the body, priced at the same amount.

if the problem is simply choice and not cost of spell, instead require that the expensive component of the spell be specific, so that the caster must pay for each available choice of construct, and how many times it can be used before restocking. only one of these choices should be used, but each probably has a different limit of power level

could stipulate that damage taken by construct is either healed with each casting (better with tiny focus) or remains and must be repaired (better with full body)


Animate Construct
Temporarily animates the provided construct body or bodies. The resulting constructs may have a total market value (cost to create?)of up to XXXXgp. Damage taken by the construct remains after the spell has ended: if the spell is cast again on the same body, the construct returns with the same amount of hit points it had when the spell ended. If the construct is destroyed, the body is destroyed as well. The body can be repared by any normal method for the state it's in: when it's an inanimate object it can be repaired by craft checks and spells such as make whole, if under the effect of this spell it can be repaired by the repair damage spells and any special methods listed in the construct's entry.
Duration: 1 hour or 10 min/level. Compare to Call Inevitable and Augment Weapon/Armor. Expensive, bulky, destroyable focus takes the place of xp cost.
Gp cost is used as a limiting factor due to it's precedence with the artificer, and because there are no setups as with planar binding to mitigate the discrepancy between hit dice and power. As a bonus, the cost is a perfect determination of when they are available to PC"s anyway, the only question being weather to calibrate based on market price or cost to create.

Summon Construct I-IX
As Summon Monster I-IX, but instead summons a construct from the Summon Construct list.
Creatures: effigies, animated objects, standard golems. Animated objects would have a few pre-set choices of form and material at each level, gaining more hardness and abilities at higher levels. Will likely use the same animals as the main summon monster list for effigies, with animated objects functioning as the vermin (large grapplers), individual specific constructs for certain tasks (probably including the basic hommunculus), and golems for elementals. Significantly less power in exchange for versatility. Summon Undead and Conjure Ice Beast may also be good judges of power.

Summon Specific Construct
Each spell summons a specific construct for concentration, up to 1 round/level.
Creatures: Spell Compendium has examples at levels 4, 5, 6, and 9 (hound archon/elementite swarm, bralani/bearded devil, greater elemental, elemental monolith).

Summon Hommunculi
Summons a hommunculi (standard or choice?) for 1 hour/level to serve as a scout or messenger. I'd guess level 4 or so, comparing to Call Faithful Servants (calls lantern archons permanently, costs str damage).


Summon Construct List
I:
small chair (hardness 5, 50' speed)
small hankerchief (fly 20' clumby, blind, constrict)
small clod of earth
warforged warrior (unarmed) (MMIII)

II:
effigy animal I
medium table (hardness 5, 50' speed)
medium rug (fly 15' clumsy, blind, constrict)
medium boulder (hardness 8)
hommunculus
clockroach (MMIV)

III:
effigy animal II
large table (hardness 5, 30' speed)
large sheet (fly 10' clumsy, blind, constrict)
large boulder (hardness 8)
iron cobra (with poison) (FF)
dread guard (MMII)
automaton (pulverizer or hammerer) (MMII)
magmacore golem (MMV)

IV:
effigy animal III
maug (FF)
stained glass golem (MMII)
force golem (MMV)
warforged charger (MMIII)

V:
effigy animal IV
huge table (hardness 5, 30' speed)
huge carpet (fly 10' clumsy, blind, constrict)
huge boulder (hardness 8)

VI:
effigy animal V
gargantuan clod of earth
shardsoul slayer (MMV)

VII:
effigy animal VI
gargantuan table (hardness 5, 30' speed)
gargantuan tent (fly 5' clumsy, blind, constrict)
gloom golem (MMIII)

VIII:
effigy animal VII
gargantuan iron statue (hardness 10, 20' speed, trample)

IX:
effigy animal VIII
colossal clod of earth
bronze serpent

Constructs tend to have more hp but less attack power at each level. The last few levels are rather bare, and the IX choices push a bit to get something in.


Summon Individual Construct:

3rd:
Stained Glass Golem (MMII)

4th:
Flesh Golem

5th:
Clay Golem

6th:
Stone Golem
Dragonbone Golem (Draconomicon)

7th:
Iron Golem
Slaughterstone Evicerator (MMIII)
Dragonflesh Golem (MMII)

8th:
Drakestone Golem (Draconomicon)

9th:
Slaughterstone Behemoth (MMIII)

Levels based on CR (summon creature of levelx2-1 CR) and adjustment between each other based on offensive ability. I would have liked the Ironwyrm for the 9th level, but since it's breath weapon deal more damage than most 9th level spells before accounting for multiple uses, I couldn't.

Summon Homunculi
Level 4 spell, 1 hour/level duration. Summons 1d4 homunculi of a single type. You are considered bound to them, so they obey you faithfully and can communicate telepathically with you, but you also take damage if they are destroyed before the spell ends.

Crafting a construct at the minimum required level (caster level, ignoring spell prerequisites) looks to take about 1/4-1/3 of WBL for that level (looked at ironwyrm, flesh and stone golems), which is a little more than the last 2 levels worth of gear. The sample indicates that this 1/3 of WBL construct could be from 0-3 CR below the crafter's level. Animate Construct will have to be weaker still than that, to account for there being no major loss. I think 2 levels below normal should work, and I'll use the pre-built body clause. Might try basing the spell off of the minimum caster level required to create the construct, or use both that and a gp limit. The gp limit feels very right, but it makes it very obvious that you're gaining a powerful ally you wouldn't normally have. Greater Magic Weapon gives you the same virtual gold, but it doesn't have the same presence. Should also compare body costs to costs for planar ally service, and CL to craft construct. Planary ally cost is 100gp/HD for 1 min/level, 500gp/HD for 1 hour/level, and 1,000gp/HD for 1 day/level, half cost for non-dangerous, double cost for dangerous, suicide is quite right out. Maybe just make a straight up ripoff charging the same cost. Long term service for some could end up costing more than it would to build one.

[Debihuman]

The major problem with summoning constructs is that most constructs already have a creator who is going to be darned mad at you for taking his or her creation. Also, a golem only takes orders from his creator so summoning one won't allow you to command it.

Debby

[Starbuck_II]

I was looking at the 3.5 summon monster spell... I'm wanting to allow the wizard in my game to summon a construct version rather than a fiendish or celestial version of some of the creatures on the lists.

My first thought was to simply switch the "Fiendish" or "Celestial" template with the "Effigy" template, but I'm afraid that might make them too powerful.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Perhaps just refluffing the current creatures, or altering the templates slightly?

There is Incarnum Construct (requires you have incarnum subtype though) in Magic of incarnum.

[WildPyre]

The major problem with summoning constructs is that most constructs already have a creator who is going to be darned mad at you for taking his or her creation. Also, a golem only takes orders from his creator so summoning one won't allow you to command it.

Debby

Yes... normally. You'd have similar problems if you saw a celestial firebeetle walking down the road. This is avoided however if you read the second post I made about the fluff of the spell. You're not actually summoning "Bob the wizard's iron golem", you're pulling essence from a source of elemental creation and crafting it into something.

So rather than tapping into a plane and yanking a creature out to do your bidding, you're pulling out a glob of creation's metaphysical clay so to speak, and bending it to your will. It seems much more humane to me.

Also it would add in a bit of spellcaster flair as they'd be able to describe their summons however they want so long as it doesn't change the numbers. One could use summon monster 1 and choose the dog and describe it as a brass fox with two tails and glowing purple runes covering it... mechanically speaking it would be just the same.

[DracoDei]

Glowly purple runes might give minus's to hide checks, but I take your point.

This is a cool idea. I like it, I think you should use it. It makes things interesting and is a fresh take and summoning. The reasoning behind it is, in my humble opinion, misguided (not that the misguidedness couldn't be that of the summoners, rather than the players... hang a lampshade on it as they say on TVtropes).

When it comes to cruelty, I don't know if that argument really applies (although part of that relates to a slight house-rule of mine), and here is my reasoning:

1.) They have INT 3, and thus are capable of at least basic thought... If one extends this to language (which I like to do to give people more to do with their bonus languages and translation spells until they get into the stuff with telepathy), then they can have the whole thing explained to them by wandering lantern archon teachers (at a "Doctor Seuss" level of course).
2.) Celestial and Fiendish creatures are strongly aligned, so they probably like contributing to the struggle. If they are summoned in a slightly more morally neutral situation (say a True Neutral caster who rolled a 1 on his spot check to notice the she-bear and her cub in dense underbrush and walked between them).
3.) Given that Raise Dead and Resurrection don't work on Outsiders, getting Summoned is the only way that such creatures can strike out at what they hate directly without risking their ETERNAL existences. They don't get an afterlife... there is no "after".

In short, the reaction of most celestial badgers/dogs/whatever is probably "throw me in that briar patch", and anything with higher INT scores probably kneels (if it has knees) and says "My deepest thanks." if you give it a chance after the battle is over.


Druids on the other hand are probably being ruthless pragmatists (even the NG and CN ones) when they use their Summon Nature's Ally spells.

[WildPyre]

Yeah it really seems to me, like something mages would do in high magic worlds.

I'm also considering writing up a 0 level summon that just calls up a little pupper guy of small size that's good for flanking and little else. Hmm can you be considered flanking if you don't have any attacks?

[Ashtagon]

Yeah it really seems to me, like something mages would do in high magic worlds.

I'm also considering writing up a 0 level summon that just calls up a little pupper guy of small size that's good for flanking and little else. Hmm can you be considered flanking if you don't have any attacks?

I believe there is already a level 1 spell that creates a "flanker". Anything that has a meaningful combat effect should be beyond the power of a 0th level spell.

[DracoDei]

I believe there is already a level 1 spell that creates a "flanker". Anything that has a meaningful combat effect should be beyond the power of a 0th level spell.

Acid Splash, Daze, Disrupt Undead, Ray of Frost, and probably several I am forgetting disprove this assumption.

[WildPyre]

I believe there is already a level 1 spell that creates a "flanker". Anything that has a meaningful combat effect should be beyond the power of a 0th level spell.

Honestly if theres a level 1 spell that does nothing but creates a flanker... that spell is pointless and completely outshadowed by summon monster 1.

I'm seeing this as a small construct with an AC of 11, 1d4 HP, movement speed of 15 and no attacks at all. So yeah it stands there and says "Hi I'm flanking you... please don't sneeze or I'll die."