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View Full Version : Building a Better BBEGuiler (3.5e)



ArcanistSupreme
2010-04-23, 09:38 PM
In an upcoming confrontation in my campaign, the PCs will be encountering a Beguiler and some of his/her charmed minions. The players are a VoP Druid (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=181773), an intimidate focused Barbarian (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=183017), a Warbardbarian (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=183234) (Warblade/Bard/Barbarian), and a spiked chain wielding Duskblade (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=184052). All are level 5 and fairly optimized (with the exception of the Barbarian).

My question for all of you is how do I create an encounter that will really push these players but still be winnable? What level should the Beguiler be? Are there any feats/skill tricks/advanced learning spells that would be good for this situation? What tactics should (s)he use?

Finally, what terrain should I bring into play? Is there a terrain type that would enable clever tactics? I would prefer a small town or a bridge over a very wide river, but I'm open to suggestions.

Any and all 3.5 books are allowed, but I unfortunately do not have access to Dragon Magazine.

Thanks!

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-04-24, 01:20 AM
I like the special property of Orpheus' +1 Greataxe: "causes DM fiat"

What is the Druid's animal companion? What race is the BBEGuiler?

When dealing with PCs who have flaws which aren't much of a drawback, I'll typically give opponents one extra feat as though they had a flaw which didn't affect play, or give them two flaws as well.

I'd make it at least a Beguiler 5/ Mindbender 1, with Mindsight in Lords of Madness and Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon. That would allow him to cast 4th level spells, such as Greater Mirror Image and Solid Fog. He could have used Charm Monster to gain some nonhumanoid allies, so I'd throw in something with a low Will save like an Ogre. Keep in mind that charmed creatures would regard him as a trusted friend, so he would likely be their employer if they fight for him. Something like, "You should come work for me, friend, I need someone I can trust to watch my back."

Assuming the Druid has a Dire Eagle or a Dire Bat he can ride on, it's going to be difficult to give him a terrain advantage. I'd give him probably three basic guards, something like Gnome Fighter 2's with Shield Specialization, Shield Ward, Dodge, and Titan Fighting (RoS), who should mostly just try to get in the way and be unkillable. Give him two Ogres, who act as linebackers and will be dealing the majority of the damage. I'd slightly adjust their ability scores and give them masterwork equipment, with hand picked feats and flaws, as follows:

Tweedle-Dum
Ogre, CR 3
Str 19, Dex 13, Con 13, Int 6, Wis 8, Cha 9
Flaws: Weak-Willed, Shaky
Feats: Blooded (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Blooded_%28FR%29) (via Kn: Local 2 ranks), Combat Reflexes, Large and In Charge, Weapon Focus: Glaive
Equipment: Masterwork Large Glaive, Large Banded Mail, Masterwork Large Armor Spikes
Shtick: Stand behind the gnome guards threatening past them, use AoOs with Large and In Charge to keep opponents at bay, attack anyone who's within reach on his turn if any or ready an action to attack anyone who gets within reach. If it's difficult terrain they can't even 5-ft. step up to him.

Tweedle-Dee
Ogre, CR 3
Str 21, Dex 8, Con 15, Int 6, Wis 8, Cha 9
Flaws: Weak-Willed, Noncombatant
Feats: Rock Hurling (RoS), Brutal Throw, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot
Equipment: Large Scale Mail, Masterwork Spiked Gauntlet, Heavy Shield, three Potion of Hawkeye, pile of rocks
Shtick: Throw rocks at people. Possibly replace Rock Hurling with Weapon Focus: Javelin and give him a pile of large javelins, since they would have twice the range increment, but rocks are probably more fun/fitting.

As for the BBEGuiler, his first Advanced Learning can be a 2nd level spell with Versatile Spellcaster and the best choice is usually Ray of Stupidity. Keep in mind that with Mindsight he can see everyone's Int scores, so he would automatically know the best targets. This alone can outright disable the Druid's animal companion in a single shot, brutal but effective. Consider giving him a Circlet of Rapid Casting and he can do that as a swift action. He should probably cast Glitterdust on everyone, then Slow, and maybe Confusion. He should always use two lower-level spell slots to cast every spell via Versatile Spellcaster. Be sure he casts Greater Mirror Image (an immediate action) as soon as he's attacked, possibly earlier so it gets up to the full number of images by the time he is engaged.

Taking all of the above advice will make an extremely difficult encounter, but this being a primary villain it probably should be.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-04-24, 07:25 AM
First off, holy cow, this is great stuff! Thanks for such an in depth response. There are a couple questions I have, as well as some answers to your questions.


I like the special property of Orpheus' +1 Greataxe: "causes DM fiat"

Cute, I hadn't noticed that. Long story...


What is the Druid's animal companion? What race is the BBEGuiler?

The animal companion is a crocodile, cleverly named Crocky. As of now I'm leaning towards human or gnome for the Beguiler, but it's part of a pirate organization that includes basically every race, so it's not super important what race it is.


When dealing with PCs who have flaws which aren't much of a drawback, I'll typically give opponents one extra feat as though they had a flaw which didn't affect play, or give them two flaws as well.

That's a really good call. No point in the game going on easy mode.


stuff about Charm Monster

Yeah, I was thinking about this, but was discouraged by the limitations of Charm Person. Thanks, Versatile Spellcaster!


Assuming the Druid has a Dire Eagle or a Dire Bat he can ride on, it's going to be difficult to give him a terrain advantage.

No pets for flight, but his preferred wildshape form is a Desmodu hunting bat, and of course he has Natural Spell shenaniganed in. What effect would having the fight take place in a cave have?


Stuff about gnomes and ogres.

I love the names (the Beguiler will probably call them that). The gnomes are also cool, as I've always had trouble making monsters capable of staying alive very long against this party. They are also making me think of making it just a gnome pirate organization (the players know there are pirates, but haven't encountered them yet), which would be hilarious.


Tactics.

This is all brilliant, and some of it's down-right mean. My only issue is that while most of the players are pretty good at optimizing, they aren't necessarily that amazing at strategic thinking (the druid once cast entangle centered on the party because it also hit the bad guys). I want to do all of this, but what do I do if they start getting slaughtered? I suppose an NPC they're supposed to meet up with can step in if things get too nasty. Thoughts?

EDIT: Oh, and that Blooded link is giving me a 404. Assuming it's the feat that gives +2 to spot and initiative from FCS, why not just take Improved Initiative?

PersonMan
2010-04-24, 08:17 AM
Here (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Blooded_%28FR%29) should work.

Alright, my link isn't working either. Well, then. It gives a +2 to Initiative and spot, along with immunity to being shaken. This is probably due to the warbadbarian's intimidation.

TheYoungKing
2010-04-24, 08:24 AM
No, here (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Blooded) should work.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-04-24, 09:22 AM
I'm not seeing how that grants immunity to being shaken. I seem to recall a feat that does, but that doesn't look like it's it.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-04-24, 04:36 PM
Try this link (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/featsform.pl), and just click it from the list. It gives +2 Initiative, +2 Spot, and immunity to the Shaken condition, so for any fear effect to work it must skip Shaken and go straight to Frightened or Panicked.

Add four Tanglefoot Bags to Tweedle-Dee's equipment, and remember the range increment will be 15 feet with Hawkeye up. Tanglefoot Bags and Nets are the great equalizer when it comes to flying PCs. Keep in mind, if the first Tanglefoot Bag hits it will impose a -4 Dex as per the Entangled condition, so a second one would be more likely to disrupt his flight. After that just keep throwing rocks probably.

When I give opponents expendable buff items like potions and scrolls, I'll typically give them three times as many as I expect them to use in the fight. That way they wouldn't be reluctant to use one for the current fight, and they won't end up drinking up all the loot before the fight even begins.

Also remember that an Ogre has a 16 ft. vertical reach (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/jump.htm), so the reach weapon should probably extend that to about 26 ft. If the Druid tries to fly past him, he can knock him back with Large and In Charge. If his maneuverability were Average or worse it could stall his flight, but with Good maneuverability he can just hover there. Putting the fight in a cave where anyone trying to fly past the ogres would put them within reach could be a good idea.

If you think the fight looks too hard, replace the ogres with Half-Ogres from Races of Destiny. Their Strength would be a bit lower, I'd probably make Tweedle-Dee a Fighter 2 with Far Shot, and Tweedle-Dum a (maybe Whirling Frenzy) Wolf Totem Barbarian with Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown), Combat Reflexes, and Large and In Charge. That would put them at the same CR but they would have fewer HP and wouldn't hit as hard.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-04-24, 05:38 PM
That'll work. How do concentration checks work after a spellcaster gets hit by a tanglefoot bag? The item description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#tanglefootBag) gives a flat DC of 15, but the entanglementdescription (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#entangled) says it's 15+spell level? Is it both or just the 15? What if they get hit by a net and a tanglefoot bag?

Azernak0
2010-04-24, 06:01 PM
Legion of Sentinels is an excellent damage dealer. Cast it on top of someone and they immediately provoke attacks of opportunity because the sentinels are inside them. Then as they try to escape it, they get more swings at them.
Use illusionary magic to make some Charmed allies look like Sentinels. The players will have a hard time finding out which is just an AoO machine and which is just an attack machine.

Beguilers are kind of infamous for having high spell DC's with spells that are generally capable of turning enemies into goo. A Gray Elf Beguiler who gets the drop on the party can reach DC 19 Gliterdust with just a +2 Intellect adder. Throw out other spells that are just meant to make their lives hell.

Honestly, what I would do is make him higher level then the party (say, 8th level) and the real fight is having to fight his dominated and charmed enemies. Give the minions Haste, give some Displacement, maybe cast some debuffs on the party like Slow or Glitterdust. When the fight goes awry for the Beguiler, he can use Glibness to lie to the party that he is just a pawn or escape with Invisibility, a potion of flight, and his high Move Silently. If the party tries to attack him, Greater Mirror Image + Displacement will make him nigh-impossible to hit.

The party gets loot for killing off all his minions, and gets exp based off of killing the minions and having a successful encounter with an 8th level Beguiler. If the Beguiler tries to just beat them in a straight fight, he is going to lose. I hate to use the overused analogy, but a Beguiler is THE Joker of DnD. He has lots of little tools that make him difficult to defeat, is great at manipulating people to his will, but is not much of a stand-up and fight guy.

A reoccurring Beguiler BBEG might be fun. A Lawful Evil Beguiler with a set of morals that he won't just crush the players (because Beguilers naturally like to play with mice, not just slaughter them) and will instead bend the will of the party to his own use would be a great villain. One idea I always thought would be fun; Dominate the party, make the BBEG a 'quest giver' and then have the Dominate fade and make the players have to RP their way out of the mob of good guys killing them for their actions.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-04-24, 09:16 PM
That'll work. How do concentration checks work after a spellcaster gets hit by a tanglefoot bag? The item description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#tanglefootBag) gives a flat DC of 15, but the entanglementdescription (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#entangled) says it's 15+spell level? Is it both or just the 15? What if they get hit by a net and a tanglefoot bag?

RAW, they'd actually have to succeed in two Concentration checks to cast, one at DC 15 for the Tanglefoot Bag, and another at DC 15+spell level for the Entangled condition.

Give the BBEGuiler Obtain Familiar from Complete Arcane with Improved Familiar (DMG version) for an Imp or Quasit, depending on his alignment. Make its alternate forms a parrot or monkey and an eel. The familiar can help throw tanglefoot bags, it can attack to deliver poison, and if injured it can use Invisibility and wait for its Fast Healing to heal up. If an Imp, it should have Ability Focus: Suggestion and Weapon Finesse, and Suggestion the druid into returning to his normal form. A Quasit should probably have Ability Focus: Poison and Weapon Finesse, maybe also Virulent Poison from Savage Species.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-04-24, 10:27 PM
RAW, they'd actually have to succeed in two Concentration checks to cast, one at DC 15 for the Tanglefoot Bag, and another at DC 15+spell level for the Entangled condition.

Give the BBEGuiler Obtain Familiar from Complete Arcane with Improved Familiar (DMG version) for an Imp or Quasit, depending on his alignment. Make its alternate forms a parrot or monkey and an eel. The familiar can help throw tanglefoot bags, it can attack to deliver poison, and if injured it can use Invisibility and wait for its Fast Healing to heal up. If an Imp, it should have Ability Focus: Suggestion and Weapon Finesse, and Suggestion the druid into returning to his normal form. A Quasit should probably have Ability Focus: Poison and Weapon Finesse, maybe also Virulent Poison from Savage Species.

Are there early entry shenanigans for an imp/quasit familiar or are we simply thinking long term at this point? The DMG says that you need to be level 7 in order to get either, so the feat would have to be acquired after this. This would probably happen at level 9, correct?

dextercorvia
2010-04-24, 10:32 PM
Are there early entry shenanigans for an imp/quasit familiar or are we simply thinking long term at this point? The DMG says that you need to be level 7 in order to get either, so the feat would have to be acquired after this. This would probably happen at level 9, correct?

I believe you can take the feat at sixth, and then call the familiar at 7th. A player probably wouldn't want to wait the level, but the BBEG shouldn't mind.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-04-24, 11:48 PM
You can actually take Improved Familiar as soon as 3rd, though you also have to get Obtain Familiar no sooner than 3rd level. You can get around that by giving him his flaw feat at 3rd, pick up both of those, and still get Mindsight at 6th. It won't change him much to bump him from 6th to 7th level, he'd get a few more spells/day but that probably won't even make a difference. That way he can have it right away instead of waiting.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-04-25, 08:32 AM
I guess he could nab a fiendish tiny viper at 3 and then call the other imp/quasit at 7. My players are going to be so mad that a "monkey" is giving them so much trouble :smallbiggrin:

On a related note, this guy (he's now officially a male gnome) will get surprise casting (move action) at level 7. How useful is this ability? It seems like it would be a better idea to avoid melee than to make use of this.

Kosjsjach
2010-04-25, 09:51 AM
Here's an idea you might not have considered: make your BBEGuiler a Tibbit.

Also called cat-weres, Tibbits from the Dragon Compendium. Basically, they can shift at-will between a halfling-esque form, and the form of a regular-looking housecat. The wonderful part of having one as your BBEG is that your players won't assume that the cat being stroked menacingly by the guy giving the evil monologue is actually the mastermind.

If played right, you can have your players defeat the villain... but they might not notice that the "pet cat" slunk away when things took a downward turn. With telepathy from Mindbender for minion-control, and perhaps the Conceal Spellcasting skill trick, your players (probably) won't figure it out until it's too late.

Mwahahahaha.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-04-25, 03:37 PM
Alas, I don't have access to the Dragon Compendium. The idea is pretty hilarious, though.

Azernak0
2010-04-25, 03:42 PM
On a related note, this guy (he's now officially a male gnome) will get surprise casting (move action) at level 7. How useful is this ability? It seems like it would be a better idea to avoid melee than to make use of this.

It's a level 6 ability, and you are correct about avoiding melee. When I played my Beguiler, I used it a few times in very specific conditions. Mainly, if you are using it on a creature that kills with melee attacks, you are in big trouble. The most notable I managed to use it was when I shifted towards a Warlock, Feinted, and then hit him with a Dominate Person. If I had not gotten the bonus from Cloaked Casting, he would have made the save.

However, I usually used my move actions to run and hide after unloading Confusion so that the victims would not attempt to slaughter me.