PDA

View Full Version : messed up fighter



Naturebane
2010-04-24, 02:12 AM
I had an odd idea today for i character to play as.
Well here's the basic stats

Human fighter LE
str 7
dex 8
con 16
int 14
wis 16
cha 13

well the problem comes to turning it in to something that is useful in comparison even with the obvious disadvantages so how would you play it?

sonofzeal
2010-04-24, 02:17 AM
Fullplate's a necessity. Hm.


You obviously won't be relying on melee attacks, nor ranged much. You can still tank (Goad, Combat Expertise, Fighting Defensively), so that's probably a good idea. A Zen Archery build might help too, although you won't get much synergy off it.

IonDragon
2010-04-24, 02:20 AM
So the plan is... taking something hideously under powered and make it playable? I like this.

Why LE?

What books, etc?

Naturebane
2010-04-24, 02:21 AM
oh i just found out what the party had planed
a psion
a wizard
and cleric

Dr.Epic
2010-04-24, 02:23 AM
I had an odd idea today for i character to play as.
Well here's the basic stats

Human fighter LE
str 7
dex 8
con 16
int 14
wis 16
cha 13

well the problem comes to turning it in to something that is useful in comparison even with the obvious disadvantages so how would you play it?

...what? ...why? ...how?

Why not just make a wizard with an 8 int?

Runestar
2010-04-24, 02:25 AM
Your only hope is to bribe the party wizard to cast polymorph on you prior to every fight. Or pay a higher lv wizard to PAO you into something with impressive physical stats. :smalltongue:

Naturebane
2010-04-24, 02:31 AM
ok the story the world is going down the drain and if the M plane goes then the planes will soon to follow.
the party is of a made up of a band of unlikely allies "the alignment extremes" they have to put a side there conflicting methods and views for this one mission to save every thing.

books
the completes
phb 1-2
tome of battle
vile darkness
exalted deeds
expanded psioncs
magic of incarnim
stromwrack
frostburn
sandstrom

edit : yes making an under powered character playable

Naturebane
2010-04-24, 02:44 AM
yes double posting


Your only hope is to bribe the party wizard to cast polymorph on you prior to every fight. Or pay a higher lv wizard to PAO you into something with impressive physical stats. :smalltongue:

not if im a wall with high will and fort as well as hp, standing between the 3 casters and hostiles just need to soke the damage while the spell casters hammer at them.

oh the compendiums and eberon
and the cleric is an archer with a long bow
edit :
wizard is playing as the master of wands and battle field control.
and the psion is a shaper

Hawk7915
2010-04-24, 02:53 AM
Has to be asked, but do you have to be a Fighter, or just a "fighter-type" with d10+ HD and full BAB? Because maneuvers and stances from Tome of Battle will go a long way towards making this dude playable.

As I see it, you have only a few options:
Fear Build: You don't seem to have access to Imperious Command, but you don't have the CHA for that anyhow. Still, you could do something with the demoralize effects, maybe. . .

Sneaky Fighter Build: Take the "Sneak Attack Fighter" alternate class feature. Have your feat line include Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, and other defensive stuff. Basically, you use defensive fighting + expertise + plate armor to be un-hittable, and then hope for a lucky feint sneak attack on offense. Defensive Strike is good for this too, helping you overcome your terrible attack penalties.

Wisdom build: use "Intuitive Attack" or "Zen Archery" to add your massive wisdom to attack instead. Then, find a way to get maneuvers (Cross-classing, Martial Study) for more damage. Ideally, you can go Sword Sage for even more wisdom synergy, but wearing full plate is really nice so maybe Crusader is a better option.

EDIT:

yes double posting



not if im a wall with high will and fort as well as hp, standing between the 3 casters and hostiles just need to soke the damage while the spell casters hammer at them.
If you don't actually damage your enemies, even a generous DM will have a hard time justifying enemies attacking the dude in platemail with awesome saves instead of the casters. With your massive strength penalties, a reach weapon Attack of Opportunity tank build is near-impossible, so people can just run right past you. So you really need to find a way to still be a threat despite your low physical stats.

Naturebane
2010-04-24, 03:15 AM
phb-1 and expanded pisonics for the first 8 lvls class' and no substitution lvls i might take the crusader but then id only get a max of 12 lvls before epic

Keld Denar
2010-04-24, 03:24 AM
PsyWar. Take advantage of that decent Wisdom. Use Strength of my Enemy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/strengthofMyEnemy.htm) to get a +8 to your Str, and Expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm) to get another +2 to +4 from size.

Do note that the bonus from Strength of my Enemy doesn't stack with a Belt of Giant Str or similar enhancement bonus.

Naturebane
2010-04-24, 03:34 AM
and with strength of my enemy i still have to hit

after using expansion still have i have the same chance to hit them

and i start off with less bab but then i am still faced with the cant hit or dammage them problem

Keld Denar
2010-04-24, 03:41 AM
Deep Impact to start the chain. Manifest Hustle to regain your focus and Deep Impact again. Once you've sapped some Str, it'll get easier.

Naturebane
2010-04-24, 03:53 AM
YAY for touch attacks

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-24, 03:53 AM
There's a couple good intimidate builds floating around. Imperious Command, Fearsome Armor, demoralize the foe to submission?

Naturebane
2010-04-24, 04:11 AM
i might have to find some of thous just to give an edge in melee an stand more then 2 rounds in combat

Runestar
2010-04-24, 04:28 AM
Another way would be to find ways of applying your good stats. For example, zen archery lets you use your wis mod instead of dex, insightful reflexes uses your int instead of dex for reflex saves, while deepwarden uses con instead of dex for AC.

Human fighter2/stoneblessed3/deepwarden2? Still not sure what you would be good for though. :smalltongue:

TheMadLinguist
2010-04-24, 05:06 AM
Spellfire wielder?

Darrin
2010-04-24, 06:58 AM
If you're having trouble hitting things, Dragonfire Adept.

Escheton
2010-04-24, 09:39 AM
pyrokineticist(?) some/ crusader lots

full plate, towershield (free prof), flamewhip

Optimator
2010-04-24, 02:24 PM
Psion Cleric Wizard and... Fighter? Fighter with balmy stats? Yeeouch.

I second the Intimidate-based Fighter levels from that Faerun book. That plus Imperious Command and a dash of Never Outnumbered would do you well, it would seem.

Critical
2010-04-24, 02:28 PM
Umm... Dragonfire Adept to the rescue?

Thrawn183
2010-04-24, 02:34 PM
Why not go Hexblade and concentrate on debuffing enemy saves? The three casters you'll be hanging out with will love you for it.

Pluto
2010-04-24, 02:41 PM
Knight/Crusader? You don't have to be especially threatening to tank. Just yell at the bad guys a lot.

Hexblade/Blackguard? Walk up to the enemies and just kind of stand there. Let Aura of Despair and the Spooky Shadow Panther do the rest. Add a bit of demoralization to taste.

Duskblade? You won't have to worry about itineratives. Knowledge Devotion + Arcane Strike can halp make up for low strength.

krossbow
2010-04-24, 02:52 PM
Why LE?



To incur the wrath of the flaming fist of course!

Irreverent Fool
2010-04-24, 02:56 PM
Leadership + wizard cohort.

obnoxious
sig

Togo
2010-04-24, 03:01 PM
Melee druid? All you really need is con and wis, and you have both in spades.

If you're stuck on fighter, maybe go pious templar, for extra durability and so decent buff spells.

DueceEsMachine
2010-04-24, 03:39 PM
Why not just make a wizard with an 8 int?

Why stop at 8? I once had a gully-dwarf wizard that did just fine, and they get a -4 to int, taking into account that he could only count to 1, I think it was quite enjoyable.

On a related note, there was no way -ever- that he could have saved the world. He was lucky to survive the other party members.

OP:
Unless I missed it, what level character were you going to play? Even a weak character with some dodge bonuses can crank their AC into the stratosphere. And there has to be a way to use ToB to use skill ranks for your to hit/ damage - I don't have the book personally, but I've seen something like that.

Learnedguy
2010-04-24, 04:42 PM
Be the barbarian.

Have a scary angry face.

Share it with your enemies.

DanReiv
2010-04-24, 04:46 PM
Leadership + wizard cohort.

I like that one for a sane dm might allow it if you really make a screwed up char.

I'd go Fighter + fighter cohort.

Fighter being the PC with a big big armor and an oversized whatever double handed (make sure you're on heavy load). (edit = scythe would be fun, some god of death caricature who can't hit much and try to intimidate opponents)

Kind of Fighter/Hexblade mix (to keep it simple and useless the combat expertise tree seems the way to go) to make your dm allow...

Your cohort, a well optimized character, who would beat the living *** of the "master PC" if they were to face 1 on 1.

Batman and robin. Except Batz is near to useless, and Robin saves the day everytime.

Got to lulz with your PC and do the job with the cohort.

Irreverent Fool
2010-04-24, 04:59 PM
I like that one for a sane dm might allow it if you really make a screwed up char.

I'd go Fighter + fighter cohort.

Fighter being the PC with a big big armor and an oversized whatever double handed (make sure you're on heavy load).

Some kind of Fighter/Hexblade mix (to keep it simple and useless the combat expertise tree seems the way to go) to make your dm allow...

Your cohort, a well optimized character.

Batman and robin. Except Batz is near to useless, and Robin saves the day everytime.

Got to lulz with your PC and do the job with the cohort.

This has more-or-less happened with one of the players in the group I DM. They get bonus points for calling the cohort "Sir Charles" and using him as a figurehead leader.

I like to optimize, so I built the cohort Chuck as a defense-specialist, figuring it wouldn't take spotlight from anyone in the group of less-than-optimized PCs and that it would provide a role they were kind of lacking (front-line melee).

Well, a flaming sword and more WBL than the rest of the party invested into the cohort (their choice, not mine) he is currently the most combat-effective member of the party. PCs have even sacrificed themselves and eaten the subsequent level loss from raise dead to keep Chuck from feeling the icy fingers of death.

obnoxious
sig

Naturebane
2010-04-24, 04:59 PM
starting 4th lvl and the class has to be from phb and/or expanded psioncs

and we have to each be one of the alignment extremes CG,LG,LE,CE. Thats why LE

and for prestige class' we have to find a master in it who will give an enterce test

EDIT: not that prestige class' can be taken any way

Irreverent Fool
2010-04-24, 05:13 PM
starting 4th lvl and the class has to be from phb and/or expanded psioncs

and we have to each to as the alignment extremes thats why LE

and for prestige class' we have to find a master in it who will give an enterce test

EDIT: not that prestige class' can be taken any way

I always viewed LG and CE to be the two alignment extremes.

obnoxious
sig

Aron Times
2010-04-24, 05:46 PM
Why am I the first to call BS on this build request? He's an intentionally gimped fighter in party of two tier 1 and one tier 2 characters. This seems like a passive-aggressive attempt to screw the party over.

Naturebane
2010-04-24, 06:12 PM
ok so it might end up as a passive-aggressive attempt to screw the party over.

but D&D is about FUN, challenge and role playing and in this case the challenge is being emphasized at this time with the stats i have been given im not playing the game to be a tier 2 class that can move planets with a few words and a blink more the little guy that ends up doing something great.

i was asking for a way to turn bad in to playable not if it was BS so rather then criticizing and saying how bad it is how about say how you could make it work.

The Glyphstone
2010-04-24, 06:18 PM
Why am I the first to call BS on this build request? He's an intentionally gimped fighter in party of two tier 1 and one tier 2 characters. This seems like a passive-aggressive attempt to screw the party over.

Re-read your own post...he's a gimped fighter...in a party of tier 1's and tier 2's...the only way he can screw the party over is by flanking them with the monsters, and even that won't do a whole lot.

He got bad stats, but instead of whining at the DM for a re-roll, he's looking to eke something at least playable out of it.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-24, 06:51 PM
I always viewed LG and CE to be the two alignment extremes.

obnoxious
sig

LE and CG are also considered to be alignment extremes, as they are equally distant from Neutral.

Moral Axis | Law | Neutral | Chaos
Good | Lawful Good | Neutral Good | Chaotic Good
Neutral | Lawful Neutral | True Neutral | Chaotic Neutral
Evil | Lawful Evil | Neutral Evil | Chaotic Evil

ryzouken
2010-04-24, 08:47 PM
Re-read your own post...he's a gimped fighter...in a party of tier 1's and tier 2's...the only way he can screw the party over is by flanking them with the monsters, and even that won't do a whole lot.

He got bad stats, but instead of whining at the DM for a re-roll, he's looking to eke something at least playable out of it.

Actually, he gimps the rest of the party by taking 1/4 of the xp with minimal returns on that investment. If the Tier 1's and 2's PKed the crappy fighter, they'd see a significant uptick in xp gain, resulting in having a nice "bonus" pool of xp for crafting contingencies, wishes, items, etc.

Further, I'm sure the crap fighter is going to request a share of treasure (and indeed, will require even more treasure than normal to be even relevant) resulting in yet another net loss for the group.

It really is a case of "This character should not be played, as it should not have survived long enough to be trained in its primary occupation." Now, if the OP had access to Dragonfire Adept, those craptastic stats would be manageable. With the right feat selection, the DFA would easily be able to find a niche in the party of casters and psykers.

As is? ... I wouldn't even want that character in my party, let alone play it.

The Glyphstone
2010-04-24, 08:58 PM
Actually, he gimps the rest of the party by taking 1/4 of the xp with minimal returns on that investment. If the Tier 1's and 2's PKed the crappy fighter, they'd see a significant uptick in xp gain, resulting in having a nice "bonus" pool of xp for crafting contingencies, wishes, items, etc.

Further, I'm sure the crap fighter is going to request a share of treasure (and indeed, will require even more treasure than normal to be even relevant) resulting in yet another net loss for the group.

It really is a case of "This character should not be played, as it should not have survived long enough to be trained in its primary occupation." Now, if the OP had access to Dragonfire Adept, those craptastic stats would be manageable. With the right feat selection, the DFA would easily be able to find a niche in the party of casters and psykers.

As is? ... I wouldn't even want that character in my party, let alone play it.

Y'know, not all adventuring parties are Evil...

TheMadLinguist
2010-04-24, 09:06 PM
Y'know, not all adventuring parties are Evil...

And not all adventuring parties are handicapped accessible either.

Thurbane
2010-04-24, 09:15 PM
The PHB II Combat Form feats all rely on WIS 13+, and are Fighter bonus feats, so you might want to grab some of those. Combat Vigor is pretty nice.

Maybe go into Divine Crusader, which has casting based off WIS. Sadly, not full BAB.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-24, 09:25 PM
My vote? Either wildshape ranger or The Big Guy Is With Me (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19866674/The_big_guy_is_with_me_(psicrystal_build)).

What level was this again?

The Glyphstone
2010-04-24, 10:22 PM
And not all adventuring parties are handicapped accessible either.

No, but the 'bumbling sidekick' is a well-rooted story trope. If the other players in the group are in on this, and don't mind doing a disproportionate share of the combat activity, it could work out fine.

And for that matter, it's hardly 'handicapped accessible to have a low-Strength fighter. That would be closer to a low-Int wizard or low-Wis cleric, incapable of even making an effort at their role. A weak fighter can still fight, he's just bad at it.

Naturebane
2010-04-24, 11:14 PM
is it so bad to want to play an extras in comparason to the gods you usaly play also the roles where "like life" style roles and class types were drawn straws

yes the other players are in on this.

lvl 4 and only phb and expanded psioncs for starting class' till 8th lvl.

also the 3 other players are the other extremes forming an alliance that we have to put our points of view off to the side as part of the uneasy truse to save the world throu a rather challenging time and unusual battles these are the characters that are remembered as well even if they don't damage the most they are also remember for how they are role played, thought has to go in to combat rather then just swing sword blood fly's or fireball this and that.

ryzouken
2010-04-24, 11:57 PM
I'm not going to bother arguing this further. It's not worth it to me to try to change your mind. I'm just going to point out
1) that you've invoked Stormwind Fallacy
2) you can't save the world if you're incapable of doing so
3) no one remembers who took 4th place

Maybe instead of Fighter you should consider the Warrior NPC class. It's probably more suited for your minion level design objective.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-25, 12:21 AM
I'm not going to bother arguing this further. It's not worth it to me to try to change your mind. I'm just going to point out
1) that you've invoked Stormwind Fallacy
2) you can't save the world if you're incapable of doing so
3) no one remembers who took 4th place

Maybe instead of Fighter you should consider the Warrior NPC class. It's probably more suited for your minion level design objective.Why not commoner? I mean, it worked for her (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19558998/Commoner_Campaign).

Naturebane
2010-04-25, 12:35 AM
ok so i might have invoked it but that is beside the point at the moment.
and hes not necessarily incapable just disadvantaged. which leads to interesting role play scenes and combat becomes a battle of tactics rather then just simple charge and kill them all. it has been proven that there are ways to add his more stronger stats combat like wis to attack.

instead of criticizing the idea can you construct on it.

edit: an npc class would be fun to play and with these stats... but i would be better of as a fighter then a commoner

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-25, 01:48 AM
ok so i might have invoked it but that is beside the point at the moment.
and hes not necessarily incapable just disadvantaged. which leads to interesting role play scenes and combat becomes a battle of tactics rather then just simple charge and kill them all.Except that fighters are not a class that has that option. They hit things, and that's all they CAN do, with the (extremely rare) exception of ACFs like the Zhentarim fighter Intimidate build. Fighters hit things. They target AC, they deal damage, and they push smaller enemies around. They use Strength for that. They dodge using their Dexterity. They take hits using their Con. You can't do that if your MAD stat block is rubbish.


it has been proven that there are ways to add his more stronger stats combat like wis to attack.Yeah, using resources that are intended (and needed) to make you stronger just to cover up glaring weaknesses. If the class you're using has synergy with those resources, and use those feats to turn a weakness into a strength (ie, Wis-based casters, or monks, or psychic warriors), then you've got something.

But with a fighter? Doesn't work so well.


instead of criticizing the idea can you construct on it.We're trying to find better ways to express your desires in a mechanically strong way, rather than forcing your party to deal with a millstone around their necks. Why buff you when they could be summoning MUCH stronger allies they could be buffing? The psion alone can render you completely obsolete with a 1st level power, and the others can buff those to much better effect.

You want to be a waste of XP? Fine, but don't complain when you ignore our suggestions and dive into an extremely suboptimal build and end up feeling useless.


edit: an npc class would be fun to play and with these stats... but i would be better of as a fighter then a commonerNot by much. A commoner with better stats can actually have a stronger character build than a garbage-for-stats fighter. JaronK has proven that.

grinner666
2010-04-25, 02:10 AM
Don't bother with Fighter. You've got a decent Wisdom and Con ... if you could play NE or any Neutral alignment I'd say go with Druid, but as it is ... go Cleric. You've got a good Wisdom, you've got a good Con, and Clerics have spells that will allow you to have at least an okay Str ... for a while.

The basic problem isn't your character's stats, the basic problem is that you've chosen (or been given?) a class that relies on at least one of the two crappiest stats you've got. With your lousy Dex you NEED heavy armor, but with your lousy Str you're unlikely to be able to maneuver in it. You will NEVER manage to do any real damage in either melee or missile combat as a fighter, so why bother?

Play a Cleric. If you rely on spells you won't have to worry about your crap Strength, and if you insist on being a melee cleric, at least you'll have spells that will allow you to not be a complete combat LOAD.

Math_Mage
2010-04-25, 03:51 AM
I'm having trouble imagining this from a roleplaying perspective, actually.

The guy's got 14 INT. He's very smart--a genius to us. He's also got 16 WIS, which implies incredible capacity for understanding, presumably including self-understanding. The guy would make an incredible philosopher in real-world terms, especially with the CHA to express himself. On the flip side, he's STR 7 and DEX 8--very weak and fairly clumsy. Maybe he has some native health and endurance, but he lacks the power and coordination to be good at physical activity (other than, say, holding his breath). And this character decides that his preferred course of action is training as a fighter? I find that as unbelievable as any convoluted and contradictory backstory resulting from CharOp builds.

From a slightly different perspective: while it may be interesting and fun to play a low-powered campaign, it will not be so for a low-powered character in a high-powered campaign. I respect your determination to make this underpowered combination of ability scores and class work, but I find it misplaced. D&D is a group game, and that means you need to take into account what the other players and the DM are expecting from the game. If you were going into a party with a Ninja, a Monk, and a Samurai, I would tell you that your character concept fits in the party. But you aren't. You're running around with a Psion-Wizard-Cleric party, with what sounds like at least a minimal level of optimization. You are not being considerate of the other people at the table when you so completely disregard the tone they have set for the game. This is especially true when you are deliberately choosing the worst class for your stat distribution; your friends are less likely to be charitable when your fighter's weakness is premeditated.

If you bring this Fighter to the table, one of two things will happen:
1) He will be killed off quickly and brutally in a high-powered encounter, and you will probably have to make a new character anyway; or
2) The DM will feel like he has to protect your character, your friends will increasingly feel like they're on an escort mission rather than in a party, and you will feel extremely uncomfortable playing Unferth while Beowulf battles the mighty Grendel.

I'm serious. The longer you hang on to this character for this campaign, the more trouble he will cause in your group. Maybe you won't run into all the problems I posed, but unless the campaign is meant as pure comedy, you cannot avoid all the problems either. The solution is to build another character for this campaign, and hang on to this character for another campaign more suited to his concept.

Please, play a Druid or some other class that can make use of your character's strengths. Everyone will be happier for it, including you.

EDIT: A side note--I find the 'play the four alignment extremes' restriction to be a bad sign. It will be extremely difficult to keep the party together while engaging in meaningful alignment roleplay; this isn't to say it can't be done, but it will be very tricky. Yet another reason not to play Fighter: there will be more than enough trouble handling the roleplay with equanimity, without introducing such a massive gameplay issue on top of it.

And no, I'm not just adding this because I realized the alignment restriction makes my suggestion of Druid look stupid--whyever would you think that? :smalltongue:

Human Paragon 3
2010-04-25, 09:02 AM
I would take Knight instead of fighter for a few reasons.

1) The Knight's Challenge feature will force opponents to attack you.

2) Uses for Cha

3) Your will save will be unstoppable

4) Good battlefield control through class features that don't rely on STR

5) The ability to full move in medium (and then heavy) armor, which you will be wearing

6) Mounted combat (with spirited charge) is inherently powerful, and will compensate for your shortcomings

7) d12 HD, Tank's Delight

The only down side is nothing to do with that wisdom score other than make saves. I would recommend either taking the PHB II combat form feats to play a self-actualized knight who uses his self knowledge and inner strength in combat. OR take Martial Study from TOB multiple times to grab manuevers that care about your WIS. Intuitive attack will also be great for you.

The intimidate feats are good, but your CHA is only 13, so not really optimal IMO.

Hexblade is another solid choice.

DanReiv
2010-04-25, 10:11 AM
But Knights aren't in PHB...

That's quite a limitation. If variant from phb classes are ok I guess Wildshape Ranger is a neat idea, with wildshape feats.

Still on the "fighter" side of thing, lots of skill points, decent HP, wildshape and fast movement instead of combat mastery that you wouldn't put to good use anyway with your low DEX/STR. Up to lvl10 to grab you evasion, couple spells, animal compagnion and lots of wildshape use that last for long and then...

Pick up altertness, you already have endurance from ranger 3 and you're ready for some serious cheese with Master of Many forms from Comp.Adv.

lsfreak
2010-04-25, 12:13 PM
I'm having trouble imagining this from a roleplaying perspective, actually.

The guy's got 14 INT. He's very smart--a genius to us. He's also got 16 WIS, which implies incredible capacity for understanding, presumably including self-understanding. The guy would make an incredible philosopher in real-world terms, especially with the CHA to express himself. On the flip side, he's STR 7 and DEX 8--very weak and fairly clumsy. Maybe he has some native health and endurance, but he lacks the power and coordination to be good at physical activity (other than, say, holding his breath). And this character decides that his preferred course of action is training as a fighter? I find that as unbelievable as any convoluted and contradictory backstory resulting from CharOp builds
This is the biggest problem. You've got a genius-level character, who knows full well his physical and mental capabilities, flat-out trying to do something he sucks at. This is like an incredibly creative person who isn't capable of grasping basic calculus, KNOWS they're terrible at math, but still tries to make a living as a structural engineer. Except your moment-to-moment livelihood is at stake here. The character is not only a poor character for pulling his weight in the group, but a poor character from a role-playing perspective - the character knows they suck at physical combat, why would they go into life-threatening situations using nothing but physical combat?