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Zom B
2010-04-24, 10:14 AM
The beguiler is supposed to be a good class, but I just don't see it. Here's a list of cons that I'm coming up with:


One-level-later spells: I'd really rather play a wizard and prepare mostly illusion and enchantment spells than do the same thing and get my spells one level later.
Cloaked Casting/Surprise Casting: All right, so if I get the drop on someone or I feel like making a Bluff check AND a Concentration check AND being in melee to cast a spell that doesn't require me to be in melee (seriously, I see very few spells that have a touch range in them, and besides, if I'm an illusionist/enchanter, I'm not going to want to be a melee kind of guy.), I can get cool bonuses. I get that. But until level 6, Feinting is a standard action, so I get to cast a spell every other round until then.
Advanced Learning: Oh, hey, I get to add a spell to my list. Maybe now I can pick up magic missile or something so that when I'm fighting undead I'm not sitting on my thumbs with a bunch of illusion and enchantment spells. Oh, wait, no, it's more illusion and enchantment.
Silent Spell and Still Spell as bonus feats: I get that this fits thematically, but 1) Spell levels are a precious resource, since I get them later than almost everyone else, and 2) Casting a spell as a full-round action is not at all compatible with Feinting unless I continue casting every other round. For out of combat, I can see it as handy but then again there are the spell level increases to consider. Some other classes get to apply metamagic bonus feats to their spells without increasing the spell level, which would work well here, but the beguiler doesn't get that, unfortunately.


So what am I missing?

The Glyphstone
2010-04-24, 10:33 AM
Automatically knowing all those spells can be very handy, and while yes, Enchantment is one of the weaker spell schools, Beguilers are still very decent T3 casters. Armored casting isn't anything to sneeze at either, particularly in the levels before you can afford Twilight Mithril Chain.

One of the sneaky tricks, since you mentioned Advanced Learning, is to take one level of a PrC somewhere between your 1st and 2nd Advanced Learning slots. Choose Shadow Evocation or Shadow Conjuration, since you'll be able to cast 4th level spells, and go to town with the entire Evocation school.

Oh, and a crazy good capstone, making them one of the few base classes actually worth leveling to 20.

TheYoungKing
2010-04-24, 10:34 AM
RE: Advanced Learning- Warmage has an ACF called Eclectic Learning that could be adapted to the Beguiler with ease.

Forever Curious
2010-04-24, 10:37 AM
Automatically knowing all those spells can be very handy, and while yes, Enchantment is one of the weaker spell schools, Beguilers are still very decent T3 casters. Armored casting isn't anything to sneeze at either, particularly in the levels before you can afford Twilight Mithril Chain.

One of the sneaky tricks, since you mentioned Advanced Learning, is to take one level of a PrC somewhere between your 1st and 2nd Advanced Learning slots. Choose Shadow Evocation or Shadow Conjuration, since you'll be able to cast 4th level spells, and go to town with the entire Evocation school.

Oh, and a crazy good capstone, making them one of the few base classes actually worth leveling to 20.

I typically go with Mindbender, then follow it up with the Mindspot (sp?) feat from Lords of Madness.

AmberVael
2010-04-24, 10:37 AM
The beguiler is supposed to be a good class, but I just don't see it. Here's a list of cons that I'm coming up with:


One-level-later spells: I'd really rather play a wizard and prepare mostly illusion and enchantment spells than do the same thing and get my spells one level later.
Cloaked Casting/Surprise Casting: All right, so if I get the drop on someone or I feel like making a Bluff check AND a Concentration check AND being in melee to cast a spell that doesn't require me to be in melee (seriously, I see very few spells that have a touch range in them, and besides, if I'm an illusionist/enchanter, I'm not going to want to be a melee kind of guy.), I can get cool bonuses. I get that. But until level 6, Feinting is a standard action, so I get to cast a spell every other round until then.
Advanced Learning: Oh, hey, I get to add a spell to my list. Maybe now I can pick up magic missile or something so that when I'm fighting undead I'm not sitting on my thumbs with a bunch of illusion and enchantment spells. Oh, wait, no, it's more illusion and enchantment.
Silent Spell and Still Spell as bonus feats: I get that this fits thematically, but 1) Spell levels are a precious resource, since I get them later than almost everyone else, and 2) Casting a spell as a full-round action is not at all compatible with Feinting unless I continue casting every other round. For out of combat, I can see it as handy but then again there are the spell level increases to consider. Some other classes get to apply metamagic bonus feats to their spells without increasing the spell level, which would work well here, but the beguiler doesn't get that, unfortunately.


So what am I missing?

1. Full caster class. Is it as good as Wizard? No. But it's still a full caster.
2. Large spell known list. The Beguiler's known spell list is pretty massive, and they know all of them automatically. Plus, they're spontaneous casters, which just makes it more fun.
3. 6 skill points per level + trapfinding. Is it powerful? Not too powerful, but it IS really fun, and it means you're a full caster who really has no need for a rogue. At all.

Here's the deal: It's not as powerful as a Wizard, and a well built Sorcerer can probably still best it. Beguiler is a tier 3 class.
But thing is, right out of the box, Beguiler is amazing. It needs no tweaking to be good- it has lots of skills, lots of spells to cast, and lots of spells per day. It also only needs Intelligence to be effective (meaning it can be more skill focused than a rogue with no loss of capability...)

The class features? Not the most impressive, I admit. But hey, Sorcerer is Tier 2, and it has no class features.
All you need is spellcasting, and that's what you're missing here.

Full spellcaster. Large spell list. Spontaneous casting.
Everything else is icing.

Ernir
2010-04-24, 10:41 AM
One-level-later spells: I'd really rather play a wizard and prepare mostly illusion and enchantment spells than do the same thing and get my spells one level later.

Wizards are more powerful. :smalltongue:

Seriously, just about anything you compare with the Wizard is bound to come up short. Try comparing it to the Rogue instead.

And yeah. To repeat, this is the real thing the class has.
Full spellcaster. Large spell list. Spontaneous casting.

sofawall
2010-04-24, 12:18 PM
Also, Shadow Conjuration is a fun spell.

Roderick_BR
2010-04-24, 12:30 PM
It's a rogue/sorcerer class, not a full caster wizard class.

Irreverent Fool
2010-04-24, 12:47 PM
It's a rogue/sorcerer class, not a full caster wizard class.

This. Much like the Duskblade is meant to fill the place of the Fighter/Wizard, the Beguiler fills the place of the Sorcerer/Rogue. It's a skillmonkey as well as a sneaky, manipulative caster. It's not as good as a wizard, no, but some players want a character that doesn't necessarily feel like a full caster and yet they understand the importance of being a caster in D&D.

Beguiler is a solid class and with its spontaneous casting and manipulative tricks combined with some combat survivability without relying on multiple buffs and wizard-like bookkeeping. It's decent out of the box and doesn't require a lot of manipulation or work to make it playable.

obnoxious
sig

ThunderCat
2010-04-24, 01:29 PM
The beguiler is supposed to be a good class, but I just don't see it.
<snip>
So what am I missing?
That it's a good class, not an overpowered class. Echoing Vael, it's a full caster with the skills of a rogue. It has spontaneous casting (which quite a few people prefer to vancian casting, even if it's less powerful), a very large (albeit specialised) spell list, armoured casting, and a bunch of nice class features on top of it.

It's weak against undead and constructs, but it still has some buffs to contribute with, and the option to get shadow evocation/conjuration spells via advanced learning. It doesn't require a lot of optimisation to be effective (though one level of mindbender to delay advanced learning, and the mindsight feat from LoM, is a classic), and unlike a sorcerer, newbies can't incapacitate themselves through a bad spell selection (they can use the wrong spells, but it's an easier mistake to remedy).

And the class is fun. The skills gives an opportunity to contribute even more outside combat without wasting spell slots, and many of the features, such as the metamagic feats, as well as many of its spells, are the sort of things most people really like having, but don't want to waste feats on.

So it has all the sorts of things that aren't overpowered in themselves, but extremely nice to have anyway, and as a full caster with a relatively effective spell list, it's never going to fall completely behind no matter what, and with the proper optimisation and clever use of spells, it can be downright powerful without completely overshadowing everything else like the top tier classes tend to do.

Pluto
2010-04-24, 01:30 PM
I'm not sure how you can compain about the power of a class with 9th level spells and 6+Int skill points.

Unless you're just saying it's less powerful than a specialist Wizard; if that's the case, you're missing the point.

Optimator
2010-04-24, 01:32 PM
6 skill points a level on an Int-based caster with a large skill list. Hawt.

Keld Denar
2010-04-24, 03:34 PM
Beguilers aren't completely neutered against things that are immune to [Mind Affecting]. They have Grease and Glitterdust, 2 of the MOST effective low level spells in the game. Grease is RENOWN as a construct killer, due to their low Ref save and lack of Dex/Balance skills. Glitterdust works on any corporial undead OR constuct.

Silent Image is also good vs mindless undead or constructs. If they don't interact with it, they don't get a save or SR. Since they are mindless, they most likely don't have the mental facilities to comprehend what an illusion is, and that its not real. Thus, if a skeleton finds itself inclosed in a 5' x 5' x 5' Silent Image made to look like a brick room with no exit, its unlikely to claw at the walls or try to escape. It'll just sit there until conditions change.

Also, don't forget buffing. Beguilers get HASTE, the best low level melee buff in the game. Haste comes close to DOUBLING a typical fighter's melee prowass. If you can't dominate the construct, buff your beatstick to do it for you. Force multiplication has a direct impact on combat.

SolkaTruesilver
2010-04-24, 04:15 PM
The Beguiler, in my opinion, is probably the quintessential Trickster Rogue. It's like what a rogue could be without the murderous aspect of Sneak Attacks.

Ony of my favourite game was playing an elven Beguiler, Lawful Good. Why Lawful Good and Beguiler? How does that fit?

My name is Bael. Jor Bael, I am a Spy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Bond)in the service of High Majesty the Speaker of the Sun of Qualinost. (http://www.dlnexus.com/lexicon/15680.aspx)

He could get where he wanted, claim to be who he wanted. He was licensed to kill, but rather'ed never be detected at all.

aivanther
2010-04-24, 04:19 PM
The beguiler is supposed to be a good class, but I just don't see it. Here's a list of cons that I'm coming up with:


One-level-later spells: I'd really rather play a wizard and prepare mostly illusion and enchantment spells than do the same thing and get my spells one level later.


(snip)

So what am I missing?

You're comparing a broken tier 1 (yay I can do anything I could ever imagine or want to do) to a balanced tier 3 class (I can do the things I was meant to really well, and be useful to some degree in most circumstances).

This would be like asking why a psychic warrior is so good, a druid can trash them!

EagleWiz
2010-04-25, 08:44 PM
Don't think of the Beguiler as a bad Wizard, think of it as a non-useless rouge

Curmudgeon
2010-04-25, 09:17 PM
think of it as a non-useless rouge
Rouge is only useless if you've got naturally rosy cheeks. Some people don't have completely compliant complexions. :smallwink:

krossbow
2010-04-25, 09:20 PM
Rouge is only useless if you've got naturally rosy cheeks. Some people don't have completely compliant complexions. :smallwink:

Nerf Rouges. (http://www.darklegacycomics.com/41.html)

TheMadLinguist
2010-04-25, 09:33 PM
Heighten + versatile spellcaster. Oh, look, I can cast my second level spells at first level.

Ormur
2010-04-25, 10:31 PM
I've only played them in gestalt where I've been putting rogue-ish melee classes on the other side to use the improved feint for eventual swift action faints. It's not optimal being in melee as a spellcaster but it's fun and the Beguiler actually has numerous spells that draw fire away from him. It's essentially a specialized spontant caster. Spontant is easier and the spell list is closer to being balanced (weaker) than the wiz/sorc spell-list.

If you're only in it for the "unlimited powah" then you should stick to tier one.

Il_Vec
2010-04-25, 10:33 PM
Heighten + versatile spellcaster. Oh, look, I can cast my second level spells at first level.

How does that work?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-04-25, 10:37 PM
One-level-earlier spells: Take Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon, and you get early access to the entire next level of spells. Some DMs may rule that this does not grant you spells known of the next level, so get Arcane Disciple and it still works. Plus those spells are cast spontaneously, so you have every situational spell at your fingertips without sacrificing your more useful spells to prepare something you may never need to cast.
Cloaked Casting is worthless, Surprise Casting is sometimes useful.
Advanced Learning: With Versatile Spellcaster and a one-level dip into Mindbender, you can learn the following spells: Ray of Stupidity, Shadow Form, Greater Shadow Conjuration, Superior Invisibility, Greater Shadow Evocation. Now you can do nearly everything a Wizard can, but spontaneously cast it instead of waiting a day to prepare all the right spells.
Silence effects, being immobilized, and similar situations always happen when you can't spontaneously use silent spell or still spell. Just having the ability to use these will magically ward off those situations entirely. Plus, spell levels aren't such a precious resource with Versatile Spellcaster.
Beguiler is the most versatile class both in and out of combat, hands down. No matter what is going on, you will always have a tool suited for the situation. You're Batman without stressing over which spells to prepare. The true power of this class is in the player's ability to use its abilities, and to know what to do in a given situation.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-04-25, 10:43 PM
Heighten + versatile spellcaster. Oh, look, I can cast my second level spells at first level.


How does that work?

Versatile Spellcaster is in Races of the Dragon, it allows you to spend two spell slots of equal level to cast any spell you know of one level higher. A Beguiler 1 can spend two 1st level spell slots to cast any 2nd level spell from his class list, because he automatically knows every spell of a level he can cast. Technically just having the feat grants him knowledge of the next higher level of spells, but some DMs may rule otherwise. You may need to get Heighten Spell or Arcane Disciple to cast a spell of the next higher level in practice before gaining knowledge of all spells of that level. It is similar to a Wizard 5 who knows only 1st and 2nd level spells, who is capable of casting 3rd level spells even though he cannot demonstrate it, and qualifying for a prestige class which requires 3rd level spellcasting.

olentu
2010-04-25, 10:44 PM
One-level-earlier spells: Take Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon, and you get early access to the entire next level of spells. Some DMs may rule that this does not grant you spells known of the next level, so get Arcane Disciple and it still works. Plus those spells are cast spontaneously, so you have every situational spell at your fingertips without sacrificing your more useful spells to prepare something you may never need to cast.
Cloaked Casting is worthless, Surprise Casting is sometimes useful.
Advanced Learning: With Versatile Spellcaster and a one-level dip into Mindbender, you can learn the following spells: Ray of Stupidity, Shadow Form, Greater Shadow Conjuration, Superior Invisibility, Greater Shadow Evocation. Now you can do nearly everything a Wizard can, but spontaneously cast it instead of waiting a day to prepare all the right spells.
Silence effects, being immobilized, and similar situations always happen when you can't spontaneously use silent spell or still spell. Just having the ability to use these will magically ward off those situations entirely. Plus, spell levels aren't such a precious resource with Versatile Spellcaster.
Beguiler is the most versatile class both in and out of combat, hands down. No matter what is going on, you will always have a tool suited for the situation. You're Batman without stressing over which spells to prepare. The true power of this class is in the player's ability to use its abilities, and to know what to do in a given situation.


As I recall for arcane disciple the character learns the spells as normal for the class.

Edit: And just the feat does not grant knowledge of the next level of spells without something else.

Though perhaps I should explain in more detail. It is because the character does not have access to the level through having neither a slot of the appropriate level nor being able to cast spells of the appropriate level.

The slot is obvious but as the confusion is on the casting it is as follows.

It says that beguilers automatically know all spells of a level when they gain access to that new level of spells so unless that is redundant the beguiler would have to be lacking that knowledge before access to the new level of spells is gained.

And as per versatile spellcaster one can use two slots of a level to cast a spell that one knows that is one level higher.

Now if assuming that the passage about beguilers is not redundant for example a beguiler that can cast only first level spells does not know the spells of second level that are on the list. And so since versatile spellcaster requires that the spell cast must be one that you know a second level spell could not be cast because it is not known. Then since a second level spell could not be cast the beguiler would not gain knowledge of second level spells.


Edit edit: In the end though it is perhaps better not to start a tangential discussion on just how this works.

TheMadLinguist
2010-04-25, 10:53 PM
How does that work?

Versatile spellcaster: turn two first level slots into a second level slot
Heighten spell: turn a first level spell cast from a second level slot into a second level spell

You now can cast (really awful) second level spells. This triggers your knowledge mechanic, so now you know second level spells that aren't heightened first level spells. You still need to spend two first level slots on them.

Il_Vec
2010-04-25, 11:08 PM
The art of RAW-fu is amazing...

"When you gain acess to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level..."

The RAI is clear, it's supposed to trigger when you go up to a level that lets you cast higher level spells... Yet, RAW... Yeah, it pretty much allows you to.

AslanCross
2010-04-25, 11:12 PM
It's a common misconception that the Beguiler is stuck with illusion and enchantment spells; that's only for Advanced Learning. They've got a whole bunch of other spells on their list, and they know them automatically. They have Haste, Solid Fog, and a whole bunch of other useful spells.

EDIT: Also, "a weaker wizard" does not necessarily mean the class is sewage-level awful. It's seen as a good class because it has a good spell list, great skillmonkey potential, and is basically really good at what it does and then some, without having reality-breaking uberness like the wizard.

Escheton
2010-04-26, 08:35 AM
beguilers are arcane casters with umd
they can use eternal wands free and can UMD the rest.

valadil
2010-04-26, 09:15 AM
Sneaky casters are hard to play. I tried a few rogue/wizards. For the most part I was better off either going full wizard with knock and invisibility or full rogue with UMD for wands. Beguiler fills the role of the sneak who uses magic to break in. This role requires a lot of utility spells, more than a wizard would prepare in any one day.

Beguiler is also cool because it just works. You don't have to do any extra homework or read the CharOp boards. It's a reasonably strong class right out of the box.

Eldariel
2010-04-26, 11:36 AM
I typically go with Mindbender, then follow it up with the Mindspot (sp?) feat from Lords of Madness.

Mindsight is the feat. Great, great choice for a Beg btw. Also aligns your future Advanced Learnings perfectly for the levels they should be on. Beg 19/Mindbender 1 is my favorite.


Sneaky casters are hard to play. I tried a few rogue/wizards. For the most part I was better off either going full wizard with knock and invisibility or full rogue with UMD for wands. Beguiler fills the role of the sneak who uses magic to break in. This role requires a lot of utility spells, more than a wizard would prepare in any one day.

True to a degree, though Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10 tends to match Beguiler in the Sneaky Caster-role very well and has Wizard spell list, non-Wizard spell access and wider skill list (though about 8 less skill points over the course of the game).

And full CL with P. Spellcaster, which you obviously pick along with equally fast spell level progression due to Beguiler suffering of the "spontaneous casters' progressions are crippled for no reason"-idiocy.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-04-26, 12:01 PM
So is the capstone or the delayed advanced learning more worth it? Assuming the beguiler will eventually get to level 20, of course.