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krossbow
2010-04-24, 02:54 PM
:smalltongue: anyways, here's the challenge: Figure out a way to stat out legolas from the movie version of lord of the rings and him being able to do all the insane stuff he does without blatantly cheating.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-04-24, 02:55 PM
:smalltongue: anyways, here's the challenge: Figure out a way to stat out legolas from the movie version of lord of the rings and him being able to do all the insane stuff he does without blatantly cheating.

Wizard 20. [/thread]

Seriously, though, there are at least two or three ways to get floating feats, as many ways to take 10 or 11 on attack rolls, and numeros spells for everything else.

penbed400
2010-04-24, 02:58 PM
I dunno, I'm pretty sure that Legolas was so good because he trained for a while. It's hard to miss a shot with a bow if you've been training in it for the past 400 years

Eldariel
2010-04-24, 03:00 PM
He's an Eternal Blade. Done.

krossbow
2010-04-24, 03:02 PM
He's an Eternal Blade. Done.

Does one gain the ability to surf on a shield down an incline from that class?

arguskos
2010-04-24, 03:03 PM
Does one gain the ability to surf on a shield down an incline from that class?
That's called, "Make a Balance check." :smalltongue:

Flob
2010-04-24, 03:04 PM
Does one gain the ability to surf on a shield down an incline from that class?

The DM (one of the middle earth gods I guess) used the rule of the cool and let that happen.

krossbow
2010-04-24, 03:04 PM
That's called, "Make a Balance check." :smalltongue:

True, but one would think that would require a pretty insane one to do so while full attacking foes with your bow. :smallwink:

Estimated DC?

jindra34
2010-04-24, 03:05 PM
An Exalted Dawn cast archer. What you never said what system.

Cleverdan22
2010-04-24, 03:11 PM
It's a homebrew d20 campaign with different skill checks and the like.

...

Yes, I'm going to be that guy.

JaronK
2010-04-24, 03:12 PM
I've always assumed Legolas was just a Ranger, but he was played by the DM's girlfriend so he just let her get away with stuff.

JaronK

Animefunkmaster
2010-04-24, 03:15 PM
I would see the balance as a sloped or angled floor (10) + severely slippery (5) + severely obstructed -steps- (5). DC 20.

Instead of a full attack he could be using manyshot (shutters).

Partysan
2010-04-24, 03:18 PM
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1071
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1235

had to...

Nidogg
2010-04-24, 03:25 PM
Arcane archer. That way he can use his ultimate Arrows (slaying, seeking ect) and Max ranks in Climb, jump and balance. And good charisma.

Aron Times
2010-04-24, 03:28 PM
4e archer ranger fighting against a billion minions.

/thread

Mordokai
2010-04-24, 03:30 PM
4e archer ranger fighting against a billion minions.

/thread

That pretty much does cover everything...

Eldariel
2010-04-24, 04:19 PM
Honestly, Eternal Blade uses Quicksilver Motion to move and decides to fluff his full attack on the same time as the movement instead of shooting after, and TWFs with Arrow + Bow vs. average mooks and Time Stands Still a billion arrows per turn and learns whatever Strike he needs whenever he needs it with Eternal Training and yeah. He's an Eternal Blade.

lord_khaine
2010-04-24, 04:26 PM
I've always assumed Legolas was just a Ranger, but he was played by the DM's girlfriend so he just let her get away with stuff.

JaronK

This explains just about the entire movie.

AslanCross
2010-04-24, 05:24 PM
This explains just about the entire movie.

I'd also think that's why he's such a bishie. :P

"So, I've got a scruffy, unwashed ranger, a grumpy dwarf, and an elf whose hair is always perfect. Which one--"

"ELF! THANKIES!"

Morithias
2010-04-24, 06:55 PM
http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html

Read it. Legolas, Aaragon and such, where not level 20 god people. They were...get this...Level 5.

krossbow
2010-04-24, 07:03 PM
http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html

Read it. Legolas, Aaragon and such, where not level 20 god people. They were...get this...Level 5.


Book Fellowship of the rings yes; Movie fellowship of the rings, no way in the 9 hells :smallbiggrin:

Starbuck_II
2010-04-24, 07:07 PM
http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html

Read it. Legolas, Aaragon and such, where not level 20 god people. They were...get this...Level 5.

Please, Gandalf was a Maiar. Alexander hasn't read the book I think if he passes off Gandlaf as lv 5.

Morithias
2010-04-24, 07:10 PM
Please, Gandalf was a Maiar. Alexander hasn't read the book I think if he passes off Gandlaf as lv 5.

If you actually read the article you would see this statement "Gandalf is a demigod cloaked in mortal form and I’d have difficulty statting him up as even a 10th level character."

So yeah...you didn't even read it. Read the info before trying to discredit it.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-24, 07:11 PM
If you actually read the article you would see this statement "Gandalf is a demigod cloaked in mortal form and I’d have difficulty statting him up as even a 10th level character."

So yeah...you didn't even read it. Read the info before trying to discredit it.

So even he states he is wrong. As he states, okay not everyone is 5th lv. :smallwink:

EvilJoe15
2010-04-24, 07:20 PM
Did he invent E6?~
I find his arguments very convincing.
I am also a big fan of both E6, and Epic Level.

Amphetryon
2010-04-24, 07:27 PM
I'd also think that's why he's such a bishie. :P

"So, I've got a scruffy, unwashed ranger, a grumpy dwarf, and an elf whose hair is always perfect. Which one--"

"ELF! THANKIES!"

:biggrin: hysterical.

lesser_minion
2010-04-24, 07:38 PM
By RAW, a character with at least 10 ranks in a skill can use that skill to perform 'practically impossible' actions. One of the listed examples was "swim up a waterfall."

Grinding down a staircase on the back of an orcish shield certainly qualifies.


So even he states he is wrong. As he states, okay not everyone is 5th lv.

There are exceptions. He was trying to point out that you don't have to be ridiculously high level to be exceptional.

The LotR heroes are shown to be threatened by basic opponents that could easily fit in the CR 1 - 5 range. The fact that the character performs the occasional stunt that appears to be level-inappropriate is irrelevant - clearly they are gestalt/have some custom feat, skill, magic item, spell, or whatever.

Divide by Zero
2010-04-24, 07:41 PM
An Exalted Dawn cast archer. What you never said what system.

+1 to this. That sort of stuff is pretty much par for the course in Exalted.

sambo.
2010-04-24, 07:42 PM
The DM (one of the middle earth gods I guess) used the rule of the cool and let that happen.

eg: the Dramatic Tactical Combat system of Paranoia.

krossbow
2010-04-24, 07:47 PM
eg: the Dramatic Tactical Combat system of Paranoia.

What are you doing in this sector citizen? You don't have Clearance!

Tiki Snakes
2010-04-24, 07:50 PM
I've always assumed Legolas was just a Ranger, but he was played by the DM's girlfriend so he just let her get away with stuff.

JaronK

This. Especially when you compare the book to the film in that reguards.

sambo.
2010-04-24, 07:59 PM
be careful citizen.

false accusations of treason are treasonous.

Hobs
2010-04-25, 12:21 AM
http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html

Read it. Legolas, Aaragon and such, where not level 20 god people. They were...get this...Level 5.

That was an excellent article.

Morithias
2010-04-25, 12:34 AM
That was an excellent article.

Glad you liked it. I find it a good way to quickly end most "What level is so-and-so" debates.

Talon Sky
2010-04-25, 12:57 AM
Level 20 characters are near-gods. Hell, level 12 characters are near-gods. Aragorn, Legolas and the others were much lower, however, they were perfectly maxed characters. :D

Talkkno
2010-04-25, 12:59 AM
An Exalted Dawn cast archer. What you never said what system.

Graceful Crane Stance FTW

Frosty
2010-04-25, 01:22 AM
Gandalf probably doesn't have 20 levels. What he DOES have is a race with like 10 RHD and +10 LA that gives like 20 levels of casting...

Draz74
2010-04-25, 01:32 AM
4e archer ranger fighting against a billion minions.

/thread

That pretty much sums up my views. Anytime he appears overpowered, I think he was just fighting unreasonably easy foes.


Gandalf probably doesn't have 20 levels. What he DOES have is a race with like 10 RHD and +10 LA that gives like 20 levels of casting...

I'll never understand why so many people think so much of Gandalf's power was because of his race, just because he's a Maiar ...

If he was allowed to utilize the real advantages of his race, he wouldn't be in the form of an old man.

Meanwhile, he does kind of have several centuries of adventuring experience, plus a couple of major artifacts, to explain his power.

Frosty
2010-04-25, 02:29 AM
You're not getting it. His experience and power DID come from adventuring. How do you think he went from a 1 HD Maiar to the ECL Godly Maiar he is now? He just uses his exp to purchase more RHD and LA instead of class levels.

2xMachina
2010-04-25, 03:31 AM
All Wizards are Maiar. And all introduced Maiar are wizards. (There is 5. All wizards. 3 mentioned in passing. Also, both seen are old men for some reason.)

I'd say they're pretty much the Black Ethergaunts of Tolkien. Inherent wizardry. And wizards are old men.

Heliomance
2010-04-25, 04:27 AM
Actually, not all Maiar are wizards.

-Sauron is a Maia
-The Balrogs are Maiar
-Goldberry, Tom Bombadil's wife, may well be a Maia
-There are several other Maiar, mostly nature spirits, mentioned in the Silmarillion.

Kaun
2010-04-25, 05:47 AM
The DM (one of the middle earth gods I guess) used the rule of the cool and let that happen.

Peter Jackson?

2xMachina
2010-04-25, 06:07 AM
Actually, not all Maiar are wizards.

-Sauron is a Maia
-The Balrogs are Maiar
-Goldberry, Tom Bombadil's wife, may well be a Maia
-There are several other Maiar, mostly nature spirits, mentioned in the Silmarillion.

Ah, crap, I don't remember those (except for the 1st).

The Cat Goddess
2010-04-25, 06:20 AM
You want epic level & near-epic level characters, read the Silmarillion.

Finwe, Fingolfin, Turin, Beren... there's lots of high-level stuff in that book.

Morty
2010-04-25, 06:56 AM
It's not the first time I get the impression D&D's power level was intended to be lower than it actually is. If only because the examples of high-level characters are badass and competent people, not demigods.

Eldariel
2010-04-25, 07:43 AM
Actually, not all Maiar are wizards.

-Sauron is a Maia
-The Balrogs are Maiar
-Goldberry, Tom Bombadil's wife, may well be a Maia
-There are several other Maiar, mostly nature spirits, mentioned in the Silmarillion.

Melian, much? Hell, Aragorn is 1/1000th Maia.

Il_Vec
2010-04-25, 09:21 AM
He has some class that allows supreme cleave and ranged cleave. So each time he shot and killed 1 orc, he took a 5' ft step.

Yora
2010-04-25, 09:56 AM
It's not the first time I get the impression D&D's power level was intended to be lower than it actually is. If only because the examples of high-level characters are badass and competent people, not demigods.

When a single man runs between the legs of 12 frost giants and kills them all with a big grin on the face, ECL 18 doesn't seem that far off.

Friv
2010-04-25, 01:38 PM
http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html

Read it. Legolas, Aaragon and such, where not level 20 god people. They were...get this...Level 5.

The article is seriously flawed in a number of ways, not the least of which are attack bonuses. If Aragorn is Level 5, with apparantly well-rounded stats, his attack bonus is hovering around +7 to +9. Against a typical orc soldier, Aragorn would only actually hit his enemy about two-thirds of the time, and it would take two to three hits to kill each one - meanwhile, he has a maximum AC of about 16-22 (no heavy or magic armor or weapons, and only three total feats between defending himself and attacking), so in the time it took him to kill each orc, he'd get hit at least once and up to five times by the others surrounding him. Killing eight orcs would have left him a bloody mess. Instead, he and Boromir managed to off ten people without taking so much as a scratch (according to the passage, four fighters kill thirteen orcs, plus a large group of orcs that run away, without taking any damage at all.)

D&D also doesn't reflect the real world very well to begin with. Its core mechanic posits that absolutely everyone has a 5% chance of success or failure in a stressful situation.

Skill-wise, 3e is very front-loaded. At Level 5, Einstein has a +15 to his checks. If he manages to reach Level 10... he's still only at +20, with his chances of answering mind-boggling questions only up 20%. That's doubling his experience level for a much, much less than double output.

Certainly, most real-world people are going to be capping out at Level 5-6. Most fantasy world or legendary people, however, are a hell of a lot more powerful than the author gives them credit for.

Mike_G
2010-04-25, 03:30 PM
The article is seriously flawed in a number of ways, not the least of which are attack bonuses. If Aragorn is Level 5, with apparantly well-rounded stats, his attack bonus is hovering around +7 to +9. Against a typical orc soldier, Aragorn would only actually hit his enemy about two-thirds of the time, and it would take two to three hits to kill each one - meanwhile, he has a maximum AC of about 16-22 (no heavy or magic armor or weapons, and only three total feats between defending himself and attacking), so in the time it took him to kill each orc, he'd get hit at least once and up to five times by the others surrounding him. Killing eight orcs would have left him a bloody mess. Instead, he and Boromir managed to off ten people without taking so much as a scratch (according to the passage, four fighters kill thirteen orcs, plus a large group of orcs that run away, without taking any damage at all.)



Actually, your basic 1 HD Orc warrior has like 5 HP, so with a magical Bastard sword, Favored Enemy (Orc) and a Strength bonus, Aragorn should be one-shotting Orcs at 5th level. It's almost impossible for him not to.

Heck, a well built 1st level Fighter should be one-shotting Orcs. 5 damage ain't all that hard.

And just because he was outnumbered Doesn't mean that he was surrounded by 6 Orcs every round. Part of fighting outnumbered, which rangers would do fairly often, is tactical movement. In the fight in Moria in the book, he and Boromir would have stood together in the front, meeting the advance, while Leggy sniped away from behind, and Gimli and Sam got one apiece.

Not too unbelievable for a party of 4-5th level.

I have never seen a 5th level party challenged by Orcs, short of the army of hundred.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-25, 03:34 PM
Not too unbelievable for a party of 4-5th level.

I have never seen a 5th level party challenged by Orcs, short of the army of hundred.

The fact that each orcs greataxes kill most people on a crit...

randomhero00
2010-04-25, 05:03 PM
I would put the elf at level 6, superhuman, but just barely. Class would be unique, or he would have an extra amount of feats or something for being so old. He'd have full bab. So maybe a pathfinder ranger. Or a ranger//fighter gestalt. I'd give him something between 18-20 dex. Either way his to hit total would be about +12 or +13. Which means he'd auto hit except for fumbles on anything with an AC of 15 or less.

I'd stat the majority of the orc's in the book as something slightly less than what they are in D&D. Lower con and dex, because they were newly born and hadn't received any real training. All their weapons and armor would be the opposite of masterwork, shoddily made and mass produced. In other words all one-shottable and auto-hittable by the elf (except for the elite ones.)

He really didn't pull off anything all that amazing except some balancing stunts. But for all we know he rolled nat20s (or some kind luck/fate/karma point system was in place to auto get a 20) for those maneuvers.

Mike_G
2010-04-25, 05:27 PM
The fact that each orcs greataxes kill most people on a crit...

D&D Orc warriors are a bit of a glass cannon, with the x3 crit greataxes, but Tolkien's Orcs, book and film, generally had one handed swords or bows or spears.

I'd actually class the Moria Orcs as D&D Goblins, since that's kinda how they seemed on film. And a 5th level party can kill gobbos all day long, if they can keep from being totally surrounded for too long.

I still don't get worried about the mob of Orcs after my Ranger hits third level.

I don't think Aragorn did anything in the book that a 5th level Ranger couldn't. For the movie we might be talking a bit higher, but certainly not above 10th.

Movie Legolas could easily be represented as a 6th level Archer Ranger who rolled really good stats.

Mongoose87
2010-04-25, 05:40 PM
Movie Legolas could easily be represented as a 6th level Archer Ranger who rolled really good stats.

High point-buy.

I think one think people are forgetting is that DnD HP isn't health per se, it's health and ability to defend oneself. A hit doesn't technically have to be a movie hit, where blood is drawn from our hero, it merely has to wear him down.

Lysander
2010-04-25, 06:32 PM
Gandalf actually isn't really much of a wizard in D&D terms. He rarely does anything overtly magical. I think in the hobbit he might cast the equivalent of fireball once to kill some goblins. I wouldn't even be surprised if Gandalf had more fighter levels than spellcaster levels. Maybe some gish PrC that gives him a tiny amount of casting and knowledge arcana as a class skill. Also remember that some if not most of Gandalf's magical power is entirely based on a custom magic item (his staff) and an artifact ring.

Frozen_Feet
2010-04-25, 06:49 PM
If anything, Gandalf's more of a Cleric than Wizard, with War and Fire domains. Maybe a cloistered one, to add Exposition Knowledge to the list.

In Hobbit, he used Lightning once or twice, and threw done burning pine cones. The latter is equivalent to something like magic missile, at most. Possibly a cantrip to kindle fire.

I've always felt Alexander's article makes good points, and many people are a bit misguided in trying to find fringe occasions where something he said doesn't hold water. The big point wasn't "D&D is realistic". It was "D&D is realistic to this extent and benchmark", with corollary that "things past the benchmark are vastly more out of this world than people think".

Morithias
2010-04-25, 10:06 PM
In the end, the fact is that you're never going to find an rpg with a perfect system for every character in all of fiction.

I mean I could name a few characters that would literally be impossible to stat, because they have abilities that well......as far as I know don`t exist in Dnd.

Go ahead, try to stat Keitaro from Love Hina who about one an episode get punched and goes flying across half a city.

Or Negi from Mahou Sensei Negima, whose sneezes have clothes destroying powers.

I could go on, but I think you get the point. You can try to stat Legolas all you like, but you're never going to pull it off perfectly, cause well....Lotr wasn't written with the Dnd game in mind, and vise versa. The former had a lot of influence on the latter, but I doubt the creators ever went "we need to have it so every power and such in Lotr is in dnd", even less so after 3 upgrades.

Draz74
2010-04-25, 11:56 PM
In Hobbit, he used Lightning once or twice, and threw done burning pine cones. The latter is equivalent to something like magic missile, at most. Possibly a cantrip to kindle fire.

I'm pretty sure this is precisely the literary origin of the Fire Seeds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireSeeds.htm) spell.

Not that this tells us anything real about Gandalf, unless we want to completely accept without reservation the interpretation of whoever first invented the Fire Seeds spell. No guys, I swear, Gandalf was obviously a Druid!!!11!!

sambo.
2010-04-26, 12:05 AM
In the end, the fact is that you're never going to find an rpg with a perfect system for every character in all of fiction.

GURPS would probably come fairly close.

Mongoose87
2010-04-26, 12:27 AM
Gandalf actually isn't really much of a wizard in D&D terms. He rarely does anything overtly magical. I think in the hobbit he might cast the equivalent of fireball once to kill some goblins. I wouldn't even be surprised if Gandalf had more fighter levels than spellcaster levels. Maybe some gish PrC that gives him a tiny amount of casting and knowledge arcana as a class skill. Also remember that some if not most of Gandalf's magical power is entirely based on a custom magic item (his staff) and an artifact ring.

Gandalf is a Suel Arcanamach.

Frozen_Feet
2010-04-26, 04:21 AM
I'm pretty sure this is precisely the literary origin of the Fire Seeds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireSeeds.htm) spell.

Not that this tells us anything real about Gandalf, unless we want to completely accept without reservation the interpretation of whoever first invented the Fire Seeds spell. No guys, I swear, Gandalf was obviously a Druid!!!11!!
That begs a question: why on earth did they stat throwing down burning plant matter as a 6th level spell? Actually, I think this illustrates one point of Calibrating Your Expections rather well - some abilities can be represented by multiple different ways, and getting too hung up on singular ability is good way to miss something else.

To (mis)quote something from WH40K forums: "Enhanced arrows are missiles and they're magic, but they're not Magic Missiles. It's like a small axe thrown by native american; it's a Tomahawk and yes, it's a missile, but it sure as hell ain't a Tomahawk Missile!"

Ubercaledor
2010-04-26, 04:55 AM
Gandalf actually isn't really much of a wizard in D&D terms. He rarely does anything overtly magical. I think in the hobbit he might cast the equivalent of fireball once to kill some goblins. I wouldn't even be surprised if Gandalf had more fighter levels than spellcaster levels. Maybe some gish PrC that gives him a tiny amount of casting and knowledge arcana as a class skill. Also remember that some if not most of Gandalf's magical power is entirely based on a custom magic item (his staff) and an artifact ring.

Don't forget glamdring... Let's face it, Gandalf was magic-item-ed to the max. Plus riding a semi-magical steed... He starts to sound more like a 3.5 Paladin.

Oh, and I agree that Legolas is definately the DM's girlfriend, who else would choose someone as pretty as Orlando Bloom?

Yora
2010-04-26, 05:08 AM
Gandalf is a unique outsider, who got severly limitations to his power by his superiors. Even within the D&D rules, he wouldn't have to have class levels at all.
I think the closest thing in D&D to gandalf would be a solar.

Kyuu Himura
2010-04-26, 07:25 PM
I believe Gandalf to be either one of a Solar, a High level cleric or a Wizard, but, he wasn't clericzilla or batman wizard and wasn't some glory hound eager to prove he is the most powerfull creature on earth. We only know of one time when he went all fire-and-lighting-magic-crazyness, when he fought the Balrog, a battle that explicitly looked like a storm from an outside perspective. He would probably have pulled off his gloves when fighting the Witch King had he not been interrupted by Pippin saying that Denethor went crazy and was trying to kill Faramir and himself....

Draz74
2010-04-26, 08:29 PM
I think the closest thing in D&D to gandalf would be a solar.

Whereas I, on the other extreme, say that a standard Aasimar would be the best way to represent his race (under the limitations it was placed under).

Mike_G
2010-04-26, 08:50 PM
The closest way to stat out Gandalf as a PC would be a Diplomancer Bard.

Most of what he's good at is talking to people, and he has a huge Bardic Lore/Bardic Knowledge skill.

He never really does much D&D style spellcasting.

Eldariel
2010-04-26, 08:54 PM
Gandalf could actually be a very real high-level Wizard pulling punches so the rest of the people don't know how awesome he really is, and doesn't feel that overshadowed (even though they end up feeling like just that when things really get nasty, they can at least kill the Orcs). That whole "dying in Moria"-story? Cover so the rest think they're doing something. Ring being destroyed destroying Sauron? Hogwash, the volcanic eruption gave Gandalf enough time to ride up to the tower on an eagle and destroy him, and then save Frodo for good measure to leave the rest thinking he was there all along.

Eagles know, of course, and show up when it's convenient for him so that he doesn't need to reveal his power. They're Wizards too, just Polymorphed. Why do you think not one eagle ever died anywhere in the books even though they were engaged in two massive conflicts? And the whole meeting with Saruman? Actually, Gandalf just lost track of time on a fast-time plane and left a second later than he meant to. And he only uses the staff to make others believe he's old; it has about as much to do with casting as his face has to do with how he really looks. His somantic components just require hands so might as well wave a staff to make it look better.

Ubercaledor
2010-04-26, 08:55 PM
Though in the books/Hobbit, he was a prestidigitation master.

Mongoose87
2010-04-26, 08:56 PM
Stuff

LOTR: A Wizard Did It.

amaranth69
2010-04-27, 07:19 PM
LOTR predated rpgs, so the point is moot. Tolkien created the basis for some of the D&D races in his works, Elves are agile, dwarves hearty and stubborn, halflings simple and quiet, orcs brutal and nasty etc. However, in the books Legolas does not use the shield slide tactic and the such, but for the movie, they had to adapt to the fact that most people have the attention span of a two year old and will not watch a movie for good plot and sound story.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-04-27, 08:50 PM
That pretty much sums up my views. Anytime he appears overpowered, I think he was just fighting unreasonably easy foes.
"These are no rabble of mindless Orcs. These are Uruk-Hai. Their armor is thick and their shields broad."
- Gimli

I don't believe the Uruk-Hai at Helms Deep were "unreasonably easy".

tyckspoon
2010-04-27, 09:39 PM
"These are no rabble of mindless Orcs. These are Uruk-Hai. Their armor is thick and their shields broad."
- Gimli

I don't believe the Uruk-Hai at Helms Deep were "unreasonably easy".

Elite Array and better but still mundane gear. Still not a real challenge for a level 5-6 character- it would give them another point of attack bonus and 4-6ish more AC.

Mongoose87
2010-04-27, 10:05 PM
Elite Array and better but still mundane gear. Still not a real challenge for a level 5-6 character- it would give them another point of attack bonus and 4-6ish more AC.

I thought Uruk-Hai were part man, too? I know they don't have Orcs' aversion to the sun. 3/4 Orcs?

VanBuren
2010-04-27, 10:08 PM
I thought Uruk-Hai were part man, too? I know they don't have Orcs' aversion to the sun. 3/4 Orcs?

Half-orcs, maybe? DnD does provide a part-man/part-orc hybrid y'know.

Knaight
2010-04-27, 10:16 PM
"These are no rabble of mindless Orcs. These are Uruk-Hai. Their armor is thick and their shields broad."
- Gimli

I don't believe the Uruk-Hai at Helms Deep were "unreasonably easy".

They still were casually butchered by a force they heavily outnumbered at Helms Deep. Sure, a heavy cavalry charge does that, and its not as bad as the movie, but clearly they aren't up to the well led soldier standard. Unreasonably easy, just less unreasonably easy than some.

sambo.
2010-04-27, 10:31 PM
They still were casually butchered by a force they heavily outnumbered at Helms Deep. Sure, a heavy cavalry charge does that, and its not as bad as the movie, but clearly they aren't up to the well led soldier standard. Unreasonably easy, just less unreasonably easy than some.

errr, the Uruk Hai were winning, rather comprehensivly too, until the cavalry arrived.

once they blew that hole in the deeping wall, the defenders were largely screwed.

Talon Sky
2010-04-27, 11:21 PM
I thought Uruk-Hai were part man, too? I know they don't have Orcs' aversion to the sun. 3/4 Orcs?

I think they're an orc/goblin breed, if I remember correctly. More resistant to sunlight.


LOTR predated rpgs, so the point is moot. Tolkien created the basis for some of the D&D races in his works, Elves are agile, dwarves hearty and stubborn, halflings simple and quiet, orcs brutal and nasty etc. However, in the books Legolas does not use the shield slide tactic and the such, but for the movie, they had to adapt to the fact that most people have the attention span of a two year old and will not watch a movie for good plot and sound story.

Sorry, a pretty butterfly flew by my window and I forgot what you were saying.


The closest way to stat out Gandalf as a PC would be a Diplomancer Bard.

Most of what he's good at is talking to people, and he has a huge Bardic Lore/Bardic Knowledge skill.

He never really does much D&D style spellcasting.

Finally, quoted for win. Someone beat me to it :D

VanBuren
2010-04-27, 11:27 PM
I think they're an orc/goblin breed, if I remember correctly. More resistant to sunlight.

I don't believe it's ever been explicitly stated. I've always been under the impression it was Orc/Man.

FatR
2010-04-28, 01:37 AM
Book Fellowship of the rings yes; Movie fellowship of the rings, no way in the 9 hells :smallbiggrin:
Legolas and Aragorn in the movie are about level 7, Gimli maybe 6. Legolas doesn't really need any ability to shoot a real ton of arrows to model his feats in the movie, just Manyshot/Rapid Shot, a second attack, and high Climb and Balance checks. The latter two can be achieved by having skill-boosting items. Aragorn has strength at about human peak, but his only clearly superhuman ability is to withstand trauma.

FatR
2010-04-28, 01:47 AM
Gandalf probably doesn't have 20 levels. What he DOES have is a race with like 10 RHD and +10 LA that gives like 20 levels of casting...
I don't remember that part of the book, where Gandalf teleported into Mordor and single-handedly obliterated Sauron and his armies without even breaking a sweat. (Then, maybe, turned Middle-Earth into a post-scarcity society.) Face it: a 9th level full spellcaster in any edition of DnD totally blows Gandalf out of the water without even trying. Even at his assumed full power, Gandalf was wasted by a creature approximately equivalent to a Huge fire elemental. And Huge fire elemental is only CR 7.

sambo.
2010-04-28, 01:56 AM
I don't believe it's ever been explicitly stated. I've always been under the impression it was Orc/Man.

iirc: it's stated pretty explicitly that "Saruman has been crossing Orcs and Goblins, He's breeding an army...." in Fellowship (possibly in Two Towers).

FatR
2010-04-28, 01:59 AM
You want epic level & near-epic level characters, read the Silmarillion.

Finwe, Fingolfin, Turin, Beren... there's lots of high-level stuff in that book.
The only one character in Silmarillion (barring god- and demigod- equivalents of Middle-Earth) who does epic- or near-epic stuff is Luthien. Because she was played by author's wife, likely. Fingolfin is maybe level 14-15 (although in case of fighting classes it is hard to peg their level even semi-accurately on the base of a single known feat), the rest are lower. Again, dragons were the only thing in Morgoth's arsenal that was probably worthy of CR greater than 10, and only one of the fought against elves and humans prior to the final battle.

FatR
2010-04-28, 02:07 AM
It's not the first time I get the impression D&D's power level was intended to be lower than it actually is. If only because the examples of high-level characters are badass and competent people, not demigods.
DnD is consistently schizophrenic in this area across edition. It attempts to make us believe that high-level characters are not demigods, then not only gives them ludicrous powers, but pits them against monsters that not even demigods ever fought. Serioisly, Lernaean Hydra, slaying which was probably Hercules' most dangerous labor, or at least one of the most dangerous? CR 6. (EDIT: CR 10, actually - it had nine heads and equivalent of a breath weapon, but the main point still stands.) This schizophreny might stem from the habit of writing most NPCs as if they were level 5 at most, then giving them a ton of virtual levels, that exists only for purpose of confronting PCs.

Sholos
2010-04-28, 02:41 AM
I don't remember that part of the book, where Gandalf teleported into Mordor and single-handedly obliterated Sauron and his armies without even breaking a sweat. (Then, maybe, turned Middle-Earth into a post-scarcity society.) Face it: a 9th level full spellcaster in any edition of DnD totally blows Gandalf out of the water without even trying. Even at his assumed full power, Gandalf was wasted by a creature approximately equivalent to a Huge fire elemental. And Huge fire elemental is only CR 7.

You may have noticed a particular similarity in the name of that beast and a commonly known D&D monster. The Balrog. Actually, it used to be called that, but is now called a Balor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#balor). So, not quite a Huge Fire Elemental at all. Also, Gandalf didn't exactly get "wasted" by it.

VanBuren
2010-04-28, 02:43 AM
iirc: it's stated pretty explicitly that "Saruman has been crossing Orcs and Goblins, He's breeding an army...." in Fellowship (possibly in Two Towers).

And that's just confusing, given that 'orc' and 'goblin' has been used interchangeably in the mythos before.

FatR
2010-04-28, 02:58 AM
You may have noticed a particular similarity in the name of that beast and a commonly known D&D monster. The Balrog. Actually, it used to be called that, but is now called a Balor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#balor). So, not quite a Huge Fire Elemental at all. Also, Gandalf didn't exactly get "wasted" by it.
Exept... DnD balor has absolutely nothing in common with Tolkien's Balrog, as far as their abilties are concerned. The latter cannot even teleport, and teleports are, like, the spare change of DnD outsiders' powerset. As far as abilties are concerned the only things ever demonstrated by balrogs that was beyond the ability of a Huge fire elemental is flight (and then only in the First Age - both in the book and the movies sending it falling from a bridge was a reliable way to shake off a balrog from one's tail). Also, Gandalf exactly got wasted by the Balrog of Moria. His divine patrons reincarnated him in a better body.

hamishspence
2010-04-28, 03:18 AM
iirc: it's stated pretty explicitly that "Saruman has been crossing Orcs and Goblins, He's breeding an army...." in Fellowship (possibly in Two Towers).



"By foul craft, Saruman has crossed Orcs with Goblin-men" was movie-only.

In the books, there are references to half-orcs in The Two Towers.

Interestingly, the Uruks were originally invented by Sauron- and I think there are references to their first appearences in the appendicies.

VanBuren
2010-04-28, 04:17 AM
Exept... DnD balor has absolutely nothing in common with Tolkien's Balrog, as far as their abilties are concerned. The latter cannot even teleport, and teleports are, like, the spare change of DnD outsiders' powerset. As far as abilties are concerned the only things ever demonstrated by balrogs that was beyond the ability of a Huge fire elemental is flight (and then only in the First Age - both in the book and the movies sending it falling from a bridge was a reliable way to shake off a balrog from one's tail). Also, Gandalf exactly got wasted by the Balrog of Moria. His divine patrons reincarnated him in a better body.

1. Gandalf killed it just before he died, so they basically wasted each other.

2. Minor nitpick, but he actually just got thrown back into the old body. That's why he didn't rejoin the Fellowship sooner; He had to go and get healed up first.

Aotrs Commander
2010-04-28, 06:02 AM
Of course, it's because you're all trying to fit LotR into D&D.

When they are all clearly Rolemaster characters. I even have all three of ICE's Lords of Middle Earth source books to prove it!

According to RM, Legolas would have been level 281 by the time of LotR, with (before counting skills) a +45 moving manuver bonus. Which is pretty damn respectable, even without skills.

Sadly, the first book (which contains the stats for the Elves, Maiar and Valar(!)) doesn't contain any actual skill bonus (though some of the later books did), but certainly Legolas could easily have the skills to pull that off.

Or, he just rolled 96+ several times in a row. (Which happens of a semi-regular basis in Rolemaster. Despite being one of the most supposedly realistic games, I've seen more moments of random greatness or total, utter incompetance thank to open-ended rolls than all the other systems I've ever played combined...)



Hilariously, according to the books, one of the flat-out deadliest Elves EVER was dear Luthien, who was level 150! (Which is about as crazy-powerful as it sounds). Only Finwe was the same level as her...Her Offensive Bonus with her +88 dagger (hits as a battleaxe, with an 8000' range with no range penalty, returning and dealing additional Impact and Puncture criticals...) was a mind-boggling +410! Which is as OTT as it sounds; even an inaccurate 5:1 D100-D20 conversion gives her an equivilent D&D attack bonus of +82... She could have kicked the ass of the Balrog AND Saruman at the same time, probably before they could even get within spell range. Delightfully, she has a higher OB and DB than freakin' Sauron WITH THE ONE RING ON! Despite him being level 360... (She'd still probably lose though, as Sauron has the cheating ability to cast 360 levels of spells simultaneously...) I guess she earned some serious XP for pulling one over the level 500 Morgoth... And she was a Bard, a class, like in D&D, not especially noted for it's combat ability... (Elan take note).

It should of course, be noted that these stats are really nominal estimates, probaly because the authors would have gone quite mad trying to fully stat out a level 500 characters. (I actually did it for a level 100, highly optimised character, so I know how much effort that is!) The difference between levels is not quite as vast as in D&D, because things like RRs (saves) are based on the difference between levels, and skills, the working end of the game, give diminishing returns beyond 30 ranks or so (achievable at level 14 with effort). And of course, for the purposes of the RPG, you really only need to make them just Better Than the PCs. (Though I've got to say, I do feel the LotR characters are perhaps not overly well optimised...)

Still, it's an amusing diversion from the typical D&D arguments, isn't it?



1Level comparision between D&D and RM is dicely, because due to the way the skills work (RM 2nd edition skills anyway); they start to plateau at about 10th level and tail off at 20th.

Spellwise, it takes much longer to get anywhere with spells, but spells are a lot more swingy in power then in D&D. For example, Lightning Bolt is a 10th level spell - (but also horrifically dangerous, comparable to the middle tiers of sci-fi energy weapons and firearms. Even being half-way to a 50-cal is nothing to be sneeezed at!) Some spells are much more dangerous at lower levels though - the 'A' heat critical of the 4th level spell Firewall makes it far more deadly than D&D's Wall of Fire as you don't make an attack roll or get a Resistance Roll (save). It's criticals (A being the bottom severity of the normal range of A to E) that kill you in RM, not hits2.

The spells go all the way up to 50 (or beyond in some books!), though, and some of them are terrifying, like the ones that allow you to cast any spell on the same list of lower level, one a round, for one round per level. On the other hand, there's the likes of the hilariously bad Strand Bolt on the prosaic leather-working spell list. (Yes, Rolemaster does have that sort of thing. It's nothing iif not thorough...) Which is level 20-30 and shoots a chunk of leather at your enemy, which is about as effective as a light crossbow... Leaving aside begging the question, that outside of the First Age of Middle Earth, who the hell learns 30 levels of a spell list designed to work with leather...

2Unless you get hit by a 50-cal, but then you're pretty dead, as if the 250-odd hits don't kill you the 'M' (!) critical will...

Ormur
2010-04-28, 06:14 AM
Yeah LotR would have been pretty boring with Gandalf as a 20th level wizard.

"It must be taken back deep into to Mordor and cast into the fiery chasm from whence it came."

"Sure", Gandalf greater teleports the Fellowship to Mount Doom. If Frodo has any second though about destroying the ring so early he just casts dominate person on him to do it. All the while using divinations and buffs to keep himself from harm.

Not that they'd even have to go to Mordor. They could just disjunction the ring until it's destroyed.

Gandalf is more like a 5th level evoker from a celestial race with a bit of LA and perhaps a few racial hit dies plus his ring.

Optimystik
2010-04-28, 06:15 AM
4e archer ranger fighting against a billion minions.

/thread

That pretty much does cover everything...

And this is why I like 4e :smallbiggrin:

paddyfool
2010-04-28, 06:36 AM
A Fantasy Craft build with the Scout class and lots of Bow feats would do the whole "carving down a horde of mooks, like wheat before a scythe" deal rather well, too. And, once again, he wouldn't have too be all that high a level.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-28, 08:27 AM
Yeah LotR would have been pretty boring with Gandalf as a 20th level wizard.

"It must be taken back deep into to Mordor and cast into the fiery chasm from whence it came."

"Sure", Gandalf greater teleports the Fellowship to Mount Doom. If Frodo has any second though about destroying the ring so early he just casts dominate person on him to do it. All the while using divinations and buffs to keep himself from harm.

Not that they'd even have to go to Mordor. They could just disjunction the ring until it's destroyed.

Gandalf is more like a 5th level evoker from a celestial race with a bit of LA and perhaps a few racial hit dies plus his ring.

Gandalf was a Solar: that means Cleric casting not Wizard. They don't get disjunction. As an outsider he gets sword proficiency (he magic sword I forget the name).

Optimystik
2010-04-28, 08:48 AM
Gandalf was a Solar: that means Cleric casting not Wizard. They don't get disjunction. As an outsider he gets sword proficiency (he magic sword I forget the name).

And his domains were Purity and Sue.

Hobs
2010-04-28, 09:55 AM
The closest way to stat out Gandalf as a PC would be a Diplomancer Bard.

Most of what he's good at is talking to people, and he has a huge Bardic Lore/Bardic Knowledge skill.

He never really does much D&D style spellcasting.

I second the diplomancer bard idea.

That also struck me when watching the movies anyway. That Gandalf's heroics was usually just diplomacy.

(never managed to get very far in the books [other than the Hobbit] but I haven't tried since I was a kid)

Amiel
2010-04-28, 10:04 AM
What if Gandalf was a druid? With none of the shapechanging or "traditional" druidic powers?

Mongoose87
2010-04-28, 10:11 AM
What if Gandalf was a druid? With none of the shapechanging or "traditional" druidic powers?

Then there's nothing druid-ey about him? I'd find him closer to a favored soul. He even has Knowledge (Arcana).

Draz74
2010-04-28, 10:13 AM
Hmmm, I used to follow the Gandalf = bard idea, until I got convinced that Gandalf = factotum works even better. Except he's got some strong arguments for Paladin, too, actually. Hmmm.

In any case I maintain that the best way to model him is a very high-level character ... in an E6 or similar campaign. No crazy teleporting-and-single-handedly-conquering-Mordor going on here, he's still just a Level 6 character with a truckload of bonus feats.


I don't believe the Uruk-Hai at Helms Deep were "unreasonably easy".

Did Legolas single-handedly kill over twenty of them? Then for whatever adventurer level he was, they were "unreasonably easy."


I think they're an orc/goblin breed, if I remember correctly. More resistant to sunlight.

In LOTR, "goblin" is just the elven word for "orc." No difference.

The Uruk-Hai did indeed have human blood mixed into them, and that was what made them tougher, bigger, and more able in sunlight.


What if Gandalf was a druid? With none of the shapechanging or "traditional" druidic powers?

Then that would nicely explain ... what, exactly? :smallconfused:

Amiel
2010-04-28, 10:21 AM
From the movie; Gandalf has an animal companion. He can ride his animal companion without a saddle.
We don't see him cast many spells (he favours his swordarm), but he does do so on occasional; his spells tend to be "nature-y".
He seems wiser than intelligent.
He has great rapport with giant eagles and moths.
He doesn't seem to be a people-person.

I found a build of him written, for 3.5 edition, as a druid. I'll see if I can dig it up for you.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-28, 10:28 AM
From the movie; Gandalf has an animal companion. He can ride his animal companion without a saddle.
We don't see him cast many spells (he favours his swordarm), but he does do so on occasional; his spells tend to be "nature-y".
He seems wiser than intelligent.
He has great rapport with giant eagles and moths.
He doesn't seem to be a people-person.

I found a build of him written, for 3.5 edition, as a druid. I'll see if I can dig it up for you.

Solar with Wild cohort feat. Why does it matter that he rides without a saddle (so did Native Americans and not everyone of them was a druid).
Naturey spells? What + when?
He never cast entangle I believe.

Amiel
2010-04-28, 10:44 AM
A solar is exceedingly beyond the rest of the Fellowship, let alone some of the foes they faced. His melee attacks alone would demolish all enemies; his spellcasting is only going to compound this issue. Yet, Gandalf had to struggle in some fights.

He has speak with animals for sure, that's a given; possibly pass without trace, foresight. I'll need to go re-watch the movies before I can give any more examples; which is why I said tend.


Also, all native Americans were either druids or rangers FTW :smallbiggrin:

hamishspence
2010-04-28, 03:07 PM
Then there's nothing druid-ey about him? I'd find him closer to a favored soul. He even has Knowledge (Arcana).

In The Hobbit, he throws acorns at the wargs- which explode.

Sounds a lot like Fire Seeds.

Eldan
2010-04-28, 03:10 PM
Aren't those in the fire domain?

Anyway, Gandalf's not a Druid. Radagast is, and he's the one sending the beasts, if I'm not mistaken.

hamishspence
2010-04-28, 03:19 PM
They are- and in the Sun domain.

However, I don't know if they were, when the druid class was first written into D&D.

Were Fire Seeds as a spell, modelled on Gandalf in The Hobbit?

Doug Lampert
2010-04-28, 03:37 PM
Did Legolas single-handedly kill over twenty of them? Then for whatever adventurer level he was, they were "unreasonably easy."

Gimli won the contest at Helm's Deep, 42 to 41. Or to put it another way, two members of the fellowship took out at least 83 orcs in one battle.

The walls are an advantage of course, but the orcs at Helm's deep are totally outclassed by the fellowship.

Knaight
2010-04-28, 08:20 PM
errr, the Uruk Hai were winning, rather comprehensivly too, until the cavalry arrived.

once they blew that hole in the deeping wall, the defenders were largely screwed.

Sure, overall. They were still fought off for days by a force 3% the size of theirs, who inflicted significant casualties, until heavy cavalry with a force about 15% the size of theirs finished the job. But heavy cavalry are nasty, nasty things to fight, and were more rested, so that bit is excusable. Still, even if they were winning, the fact that they were being held back so effectively suggests that individually they aren't up to par with well trained human soldiers. Thus, mooks.

Mike_G
2010-04-28, 08:30 PM
Gimli won the contest at Helm's Deep, 42 to 41. Or to put it another way, two members of the fellowship took out at least 83 orcs in one battle.

The walls are an advantage of course, but the orcs at Helm's deep are totally outclassed by the fellowship.

And Boromir took out 20 while defending Merry and Pippin. Without any defensive fortress. And they had to shoot him down becuase they couldn't face him in melee.

Heck, even Sam got one in Moria.

Orcs are Stormtroopers.

Tiki Snakes
2010-04-28, 09:28 PM
And Boromir took out 20 while defending Merry and Pippin. Without any defensive fortress. And they had to shoot him down becuase they couldn't face him in melee.

Heck, even Sam got one in Moria.

Orcs are Stormtroopers.

Orcs are what happens when stormtroopers have to make their armour out of garbage and don't even get to go to the Stormtrooper Marksmanship Academy.

Eldariel
2010-04-28, 10:03 PM
Orcs are what happens when stormtroopers have to make their armour out of garbage and don't even get to go to the Stormtrooper Marksmanship Academy.

Huh? They totally went to Stormtrooper Marksmanship Academy; where else did they learn to miss?

randomhero00
2010-04-28, 10:52 PM
If you read the books Gandalf was still definitely a wizard. Just because he didn't have teleport didn't make him low level either. Wizards need to learn spells...no mortals had created such a spell at that time, and hence, Gandalf wouldn't be allowed to use it. It was only in the movies that Gandalf entered melee so much. I think they either thought it'd be cooler or they didn't want to fork over the $$ for extra special effects.

If you read the books you'll see that he goes all out a couple of times. He can do massive aoe of fire or lightning i.e. chain lightning (6th level spell) He also has break enchantment (a 5th level spell). He has telekinesis (another 5th level spell). He also has some sort of globe of invulnerability equivalent (6th level spell.)He also has major blinding power (sunburst 8th level spell). He also has something that can shatter stone and send people flying. I can't find a DnD equivalent for it but it'd be another 6th-8th level spell for sure.

As you can see Gandalf would be about 15th level. 11th at minimum. Its just that his spell list is very small compared to a DnD wizard plus he holds back a lot (and the movie is pretty inaccurate) both because of his humility, and because he's forced to by gods.

To be truly accurate you'd also need two different builds, one for Gray and one for White.

Tolkien based Gandalf on Thor/Odin. So one might even consider giving him a divine rank (0 or 1), even in his mortal form.

penbed400
2010-04-28, 11:26 PM
errr, the Uruk Hai were winning, rather comprehensivly too, until the cavalry arrived.

once they blew that hole in the deeping wall, the defenders were largely screwed.

I found it funny how they brought in a giant army during the movie for absolutely no reason at all. If an elf army showed up at Helm's Deep during an invasion in the book it would've gone more like:

Haldir: There's an army of what coming this way?

Human: Uruk-Hai

Army of 200 elves: Hahahahahahaha

Haldir: Sit down children and be assured no harm shall fall you, Legolas good to see you, join the ranks.

Book Wyrm
2010-04-29, 02:14 AM
I found it funny how they brought in a giant army during the movie for absolutely no reason at all. If an elf army showed up at Helm's Deep during an invasion in the book it would've gone more like:

Haldir: There's an army of what coming this way?

Human: Uruk-Hai

Army of 200 elves: Hahahahahahaha

Haldir: Sit down children and be assured no harm shall fall you, Legolas good to see you, join the ranks.

Very true, if they are all about equal level with Legolas.

Legolas alone kills 41 orcs during the battle, if every elf in Hladir's army (lets assume about 200 strong, it's not in the books, and the number isn't given in the movie) only kills about 30 uruks (maybe their not all quite as good as Legolas) that would amount to 6000 of the 10000 total uruks the elves would have taken care of all by themselves. I'm sure Gandalf, Eomer, Aragorn, Gimli, the riders of rohan, and the huorns could have taken care of a measly 4000 uruks.

FatR
2010-04-29, 02:55 AM
Legolas, Gimli, Boromir and Aragorn are bad-ass, legendary heroes even in the context of the book, never mind the movie. They are the best or among the best warriors of their respective peoples. So their fighting feats aren't even unrealistic in the slightest, particularly considering that the book orcs are smaller and weaker than humans and the movie Uruk-hai are only several weeks old. Of course, the same feats cannot be expected from average warriors.
Also I'm ****ing tired of Stormtroopers being presented as bad soldiers, for some unknowable reason.

krossbow
2010-04-29, 02:59 AM
Also I'm ****ing tired of Stormtroopers being presented as bad soldiers, for some unknowable reason.


http://halloweenswimteam.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/ewok.jpg

This is what stormtroopers see in their nightmares.

absolmorph
2010-04-29, 04:03 AM
Legolas, Gimli, Boromir and Aragorn are bad-ass, legendary heroes even in the context of the book, never mind the movie. They are the best or among the best warriors of their respective peoples. So their fighting feats aren't even unrealistic in the slightest, particularly considering that the book orcs are smaller and weaker than humans and the movie Uruk-hai are only several weeks old. Of course, the same feats cannot be expected from average warriors.
Also I'm ****ing tired of Stormtroopers being presented as bad soldiers, for some unknowable reason.
In the movies, they're horrible.
In the books and EU lore, they're pretty good.
Most people just watch the movies and see those fellas that krossbow so kindly provided a picture of kicking the crap out of storm troopers.

Deca
2010-04-29, 04:35 AM
1. Gandalf killed it just before he died, so they basically wasted each other.

2. Minor nitpick, but he actually just got thrown back into the old body. That's why he didn't rejoin the Fellowship sooner; He had to go and get healed up first.

A Balrog also has some sort of Spellcasting. In the book, Gandalf actually tries to use magic to hold it off but it counterspells him fairly casually.

Tiki Snakes
2010-04-29, 09:11 AM
Huh? They totally went to Stormtrooper Marksmanship Academy; where else did they learn to miss?

Natural Talent.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-29, 09:17 AM
http://halloweenswimteam.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/ewok.jpg

This is what stormtroopers see in their nightmares.

Hey, Ewoks are badass. Did you see the Ewok movies?
They fought spiders as big as a truck. And won.

Chuck Norris is a just an ewok in a human suit.

Tiki Snakes
2010-04-29, 09:29 AM
Hey, Ewoks are badass. Did you see the Ewok movies?
They fought spiders as big as a truck. And won.

Chuck Norris is a just an ewok in a human suit.

They do seem to be able to handle some pretty nasty stuff (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRm7yuVWM-A).

Ossian
2010-04-29, 09:46 AM
Gandalf is a mess to stat, because of the Balrog. Up until and after it, it could easily fit into whatever combination of mid level classes. The thing is, if a Balrog is anything like a Balor, as in a fiery Demon from hell, lieutenant of the MBA Morgoth (Mighty Bad Ass), able to singlehandedly wipe out the dwarven kingdom and take over the misty mountains....well, that changes a lot of things.

Tolkien didn't really care about Roleplay consistency and went by the rule of cool a lot more than we like to admit, so stats are a pain. Still, G. does go toe to toe (and he is already tired) with the Demon, to the point that he chases after a fleeing Balrog in the depths of Moria. The Balrog knows that if Gandalf gets lost in those caves and tunnels then he IS royally screwed, and tries to shrug him off. They do battle, for many days (alone an epic thing, as I cannot stay AWAKE sitting on my chair for that long) until they are both shattered and spent (still 1-0 for the old grey).

Shadowfax, spells here and there, Glamdring, seem to point in the direction of a high level Paladin of freedom, with some sort of ranged smite (by sword or by staff), building on an outsider base. Druid class levels without shapechanging do seem to fit as well, although the overall behaviour (no need to memorize spells, arcane type, has a sword, high charisma) does smell of a high level sorceror.

Ormagoden
2010-04-29, 09:55 AM
Wizard 20. [/thread]

Seriously, though, there are at least two or three ways to get floating feats, as many ways to take 10 or 11 on attack rolls, and numeros spells for everything else.

I just lol'ed sooo hard

Thespianus
2010-04-29, 03:31 PM
Tolkien didn't really care about Roleplay consistency and went by the rule of cool a lot more than we like to admit, so stats are a pain. Still, G. does go toe to toe (and he is already tired) with the Demon, to the point that he chases after a fleeing Balrog in the depths of Moria. The Balrog knows that if Gandalf gets lost in those caves and tunnels then he IS royally screwed, and tries to shrug him off. They do battle, for many days (alone an epic thing, as I cannot stay AWAKE sitting on my chair for that long) until they are both shattered and spent (still 1-0 for the old grey).

Then again, we only have Gandalf's own word for all this. Maybe he's a Bard with awesome Bluff-ranks? ;)

Ormur
2010-04-29, 05:30 PM
Or maybe a ToB class that can Iron Heart Surge fatigue away.

I also doubt the Balrog has anything close to the spell like abilities of D&D Balors. They may be based on it but as 20 CR creatures at the ridiculous power level that entails they're far removed from most fantasy creatures. Numerical attributes like resistances, BAB, damage and such only matters in relation to the opposed numerical attributes of the opponent. If having the attributes of a mid-level character is enough for Gandalf in relation to low level opponents like orcs then a challenging opponent like the Balrog only has to match those figures.

Of course it's the spells that mostly screw up the balance in D&D and comparisons to fantasy in other media. You could always say guys like Gandalf and the Balrog are high level equivalent characters apart from the spells and SLAs, but as those are the main things that distinguish high level D&D characters and that level dependent figures only matter in relation to your opponents I don't see the reason for statting them as 20th level or epic D&D characters when lover levels suffice.

Talon Sky
2010-04-29, 05:57 PM
Legolas, Gimli, Boromir and Aragorn are bad-ass, legendary heroes even in the context of the book, never mind the movie. They are the best or among the best warriors of their respective peoples. So their fighting feats aren't even unrealistic in the slightest, particularly considering that the book orcs are smaller and weaker than humans and the movie Uruk-hai are only several weeks old. Of course, the same feats cannot be expected from average warriors.
Also I'm ****ing tired of Stormtroopers being presented as bad soldiers, for some unknowable reason.

In my campaigns, once the players hit around level 4-5 I begin making it out like they're the best around. Point being, most NPCs in my games don't get past levels 1-2, so anyone around 4-5 is pretty well accomplished. 6-9 is famous everywhere. 10+ is legendary.


If you read the books you'll see that he goes all out a couple of times. He can do massive aoe of fire or lightning i.e. chain lightning (6th level spell) He also has break enchantment (a 5th level spell). He has telekinesis (another 5th level spell). He also has some sort of globe of invulnerability equivalent (6th level spell.)He also has major blinding power (sunburst 8th level spell). He also has something that can shatter stone and send people flying. I can't find a DnD equivalent for it but it'd be another 6th-8th level spell for sure.

As you can see Gandalf would be about 15th level. 11th at minimum. Its just that his spell list is very small compared to a DnD wizard plus he holds back a lot (and the movie is pretty inaccurate) both because of his humility, and because he's forced to by gods.

1) how many of those abilities were granted to Gandalf by his many, many magical items?

2) Annnnnnd that sounds like a cleric, in a lot of ways.

SethFahad
2010-04-29, 11:39 PM
:smalltongue: anyways, here's the challenge: Figure out a way to stat out legolas from the movie version of lord of the rings and him being able to do all the insane stuff he does without blatantly cheating.

Man, Legolas has nothing to do with 3.5 version!
If you have access to some MERP books, read the stats and weep!!!

So... TAKE THAT BACK (about cheating and stuff)!!! :smalltongue:

Draz74
2010-04-29, 11:48 PM
1) how many of those abilities were granted to Gandalf by his many, many magical items?

By "many, many", you mean ... like 3 major ones? 4 while he carried the Palantir, or 5 if Shadowfax counts?

(Narya, Glamdring, and his staff definitely count. I'm struggling to remember any confirmations that his hat, for example, has any magic properties.)

SethFahad
2010-04-30, 12:05 AM
Oh, and Gandalf surely has some divinity. Saruman and Radagast has too.
They were spirits...servants to the Major Deities.

edit: Gandalf hat, provided protection from tha sun (pointy) and from cold. It was a normal hat.:smalltongue:

What about the "horse-effect" in the river with the Wringwraiths?

Eldan
2010-04-30, 02:03 AM
Wasn't that partially Elrond's doing and partially an existing enchantment on the river?

2xMachina
2010-04-30, 02:38 AM
I think Gandalf buffed that spell too.

Aotrs Commander
2010-04-30, 02:37 PM
Man, Legolas has nothing to do with 3.5 version!
If you have access to some MERP books, read the stats and weep!!!

So... TAKE THAT BACK (about cheating and stuff)!!! :smalltongue:

See! See! I'm not just the only one who knows the truth! MERP/Rolemaster for the win...er...I mean, King!