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TheMinxTail
2010-04-24, 03:19 PM
Edit: I forgot to ask originally, but what constitutes as 'defeated' as far as XP rewards go? And The main question was supposed to be 'how do I defeat the Tarrasque ONCE-AND-FOR-ALL'. I know I could just cast Imprison, pierce its Spell Resistence and be almost guaranteed to succeed afterwords in defeating it that way, but then it can just get free and wreck the world apart once more - or the wizard who probably freed it the last time could just cast Freedom, or some evil cult could lend it a hand in exchance for 'power', or whatever else.

Feel free to skip first paragraph following this if you have the Pathfinder Beastiary or otherwise know the combat stats for today's subhect matter.

Alright, I'm skimming through the beastiary and I found the easily strongest entry so far - the Tarraque. Defensive abilities alone are staggering; Spell Resistence 36, DR15/epic, AC 40 (touch 5), 525 HP (30 HD), Regeneration 40 that can make it survive and be brought back almost instantly after being reduced to ash by disintegrate, +31 Fortitude, +22 Reflex, +12 Will, Carapace (negates and 30% reflects all cones, lines, rays and magic missiles), Combat Maneuvre Defence 66, and Immunity to the following: Acid, ability damage, bleed, disease, energy drain, fire, mind-affecting affects, paralysis, petrification, poison, polymorph and PERMANENT WOUNDS! It has a whole bunch of melee attacks per round with extreme attack bonuses and its main bite has grab and swallow, not to mention a nasty critical threat range, Great Cleave, Stunning Critical, Reach 30 (60 with tail), the ability to chuck spines, a once a minute rush ability, huge bonuses to Perception and Acrobatics checks made to jump (though nothing else), a frightning presence, scent, and the ability to chuck a volley of spines at people at a range incrememnt of 120 feet. Make no mistake gentlemen and ladies; this is just mean. And as a DM, I shall take great pleasure in fulfilling my duty to see it duke it out with a bunch of PCs with CR 5 lower than it a piece.

Really, this beast would make for a plenty climactic battle to end a campaign. With intelligence of 3 and no abiity to speak, though limitted understanding of Aklo, its hardly a mastermind but certainly the equivalent to, say, the Thing In The Shadows from OotS - the ultimate weapon that the mastermind lets loose around the time the PCs fell him in battle. There have been badder things, but few are in core books. So guys, how would you combat the great Tarrasque, the fantasy setting equivalent of GODzilla? I have a few ideas of my own, but I want to hear what you guys think. If theres any decent strategy and cunning you bring up, I might just use this as the ultimate foe in the first high-level campaign I run. Keep in mind that this is pre-epic Pathfinder (though any d20 supplement just about goes), so "I'd cast Nail to the Sky" just doesn't work.

May the epic level Psionic Power Point Pool be with you.

Ranos
2010-04-24, 03:20 PM
Still can't fly.
PCs win.

Touchy
2010-04-24, 03:21 PM
Still can't fly.
PCs win.

It might be 4e but doesn't tarrasque have something that auto-lowers all nearby fliers(Read: over 100 feet) to his reach?

TheMinxTail
2010-04-24, 03:27 PM
Still can't fly.
PCs win.

Well, yeah, if you want to be lazy about it. But the PCs are meant to be heroes - questing and saving the fine folks of the Good-Aligned nations (or in the case of my campaigns the misled populace of cardboard cut outs inhabiting dictatorships). It isn't enough to just periodically cast Overland Flight and just run away forever or until they run out of age categories - the at least have to hold back the tide of blood whilethey live on.

senrath
2010-04-24, 03:28 PM
The idea isn't to run. It's to fly out of its range, then slowly wear it down.

Gnaeus
2010-04-24, 03:28 PM
I have a few ideas of my own, but I want to hear what you guys think. If theres any decent strategy and cunning you bring up, I might just use this as the ultimate foe in the first high-level campaign I run. Keep in mind that this is pre-epic Pathfinder (though any d20 supplement just about goes), so "I'd cast Nail to the Sky" just doesn't work.

May the epic level Psionic Power Point Pool be with you.

It is still immune to ability damage, but not drain, so commanding several types of undead to drain it to 0 still works.

TheMinxTail
2010-04-24, 03:29 PM
It might be 4e but doesn't tarrasque have something that auto-lowers all nearby fliers(Read: over 100 feet) to his reach?

Where does it say that? I have a couple of E-Books here, but I don't thin its in the Monster Manual for 4e. Anyway, this is Pathfinder here - revised 3rd Edition.

Eldariel
2010-04-24, 03:32 PM
This thread may be of interest to you (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7221238#post7221238). Of course, I suggest you don't allow Wizards anywhere near the thing as they'll do so ugly things you'll be dealing with a PC Tarrasque with 9th level spells after Magic Jars/True Mind Switches and stuff. If he didn't, he could just kill it. But...yeah. As long as they can keep it down forever, that should constitute a victory. Or...y'know, make it so dysfunctional, it cannot act ever again.

Touchy
2010-04-24, 03:32 PM
Where does it say that? I have a couple of E-Books here, but I don't thin its in the Monster Manual for 4e. Anyway, this is Pathfinder here - revised 3rd Edition.

No, I said it might be 4e abilities of tarrasque, meaning I'm possibly mixing things up the stat blocks on those two editions. Plus I know what pathfinder is, I own the book.

Edit: I was mixing it all up, he doesn't have that ability in PF. Just checked the PFSRD.

TheMinxTail
2010-04-24, 03:33 PM
The idea isn't to run. It's to fly out of its range, then slowly wear it down.

And the fact that it can regenerate in 3 rounds from disintegrate doesn't mean they're mincemeat when their evasive spells end durations end because why? I know you raise a decent point in the case of fighting, oh, say, ANY OTHER MONSTER, but this one requires more than your standard "he can cast fireball, surround him' or 'he has great cleave, tanglefoot and snipe from a distance' type tactics.

TheMinxTail
2010-04-24, 03:35 PM
This thread may be of interest to you (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7221238#post7221238). Of course, I suggest you don't allow Wizards anywhere near the thing as they'll do so ugly things you'll be dealing with a PC Tarrasque with 9th level spells after Magic Jars/True Mind Switches and stuff. If he didn't, he could just kill it. But...yeah. As long as they can keep it down forever, that should constitute a victory. Or...y'know, make it so dysfunctional, it cannot act ever again.

Tanks for link. I'll glean through for now and read more thoroughly later. For now though, the forum's still good and open over here.

TheMinxTail
2010-04-24, 03:40 PM
It is still immune to ability damage, but not drain, so commanding several types of undead to drain it to 0 still works.

Hm... since Drain is a more extreme (specifically just permanent duration) version of damage, I'm afraid that even if I were to support the PCs fighting teh Tarrasque, I would still have to rule that even though it doesn't directly say so, the beast is immune to drain. It jsut seems fair - well, as fair as a fight to teh death with a Tarraque can be... well, it's somewhat more realitic that way anyway.

Actually, now that I think about it, most drain provides Fort saves or Spell Resistence or has to actually hit its AC - three departments that it excels at. Its not much of a viable strategy, really, even if I didn't rule out drain for damage-immune monsters.

Nero24200
2010-04-24, 03:54 PM
You know, you could also dig a large enough pit to contain it (or use spells, making the process alot quicker/easier), cover it with an illusion, then lure it in. It has the intellegence of an animal and it's weakest save is Will (+12, not exactly high for a high level creature...let alone epic), so having it chase...I dunno, maybe a giant floating ham? Or something it will follow....anyway, have it follow it over an illusion covering the pit and in it goes.

Theres also the "Improved Invisability + Nail File" to get the components required to make a few simirculims. It only costs 7500 per simirculim, so you could generate quite a few at high levels. In fact, you'd only need to be level 15 to create one, so provided you have the gold you can create quite a few. It also has regeneration, so you don't need to worry about spending 100gp per hit point to heal it.

A thought springs to mind....if I had those spells, I wouldn't want to kill the tarrasque...why kill something which will act as a source for my army of almost indestructable.

Though actually permanatly killing a Tarrasque is problematic. Paizo basically went as far out there was as possible to make it a "DM Fiat" monster (why I wouldn't know).

If you had a ready source of ability drain though, that could put a tarrasque out of action quickly. Since Allips deal ability drain on a critical hit, you could still use the "Turn a bunch of Allips and let loose" tactic, though you'd need alot more Allips than before to get it done reliably.

Cogidubnus
2010-04-24, 03:56 PM
Dominate Monster. Will is it's lowest defence. Charm monster. Suggestion. Wizards get enough bonus languages they can probably find a way to communicate with it. Just cast fly, then control it. Then make it kill whatever brought it from beneath the earth. Then order it to fail all saves against your spells and use it as a living lawn ornament.

Gnaeus
2010-04-24, 04:04 PM
Actually, now that I think about it, most drain provides Fort saves or Spell Resistence or has to actually hit its AC - three departments that it excels at. Its not much of a viable strategy, really, even if I didn't rule out drain for damage-immune monsters.

House ruling it away certainly works, but FYI the way you drain it to death is with alips or other critters that do AOE drain, or incorporeal undead that glide through the ground underneath it and target it with touch attacks.

TheMinxTail
2010-04-24, 04:07 PM
You know, you could also dig a large enough pit to contain it (or use spells, making the process alot quicker/easier), cover it with an illusion, then lure it in. It has the intellegence of an animal and it's weakest save is Will (+12, not exactly high for a high level creature...let alone epic), so having it chase...I dunno, maybe a giant floating ham? Or something it will follow....anyway, have it follow it over an illusion covering the pit and in it goes.

Theres also the "Improved Invisability + Nail File" to get the components required to make a few simirculims. It only costs 7500 per simirculim, so you could generate quite a few at high levels. In fact, you'd only need to be level 15 to create one, so provided you have the gold you can create quite a few. It also has regeneration, so you don't need to worry about spending 100gp per hit point to heal it.

A thought springs to mind....if I had those spells, I wouldn't want to kill the tarrasque...why kill something which will act as a source for my army of almost indestructable.

Though actually permanatly killing a Tarrasque is problematic. Paizo basically went as far out there was as possible to make it a "DM Fiat" monster (why I wouldn't know).

If you had a ready source of ability drain though, that could put a tarrasque out of action quickly. Since Allips deal ability drain on a critical hit, you could still use the "Turn a bunch of Allips and let loose" tactic, though you'd need alot more Allips than before to get it done reliably.

Dude, you can't clone the end of campaign boss! Next campaign the DM will probably punish you by reducing your old character to moustache twirling Adam West-ian villain that you'll have to fight against! Seriously though, and illusion is about what I expected - low Will Save and all. Something about that angle just seems cheap though. Maybe its the fact taht even though it doesn't have a burrow speed, it could probably just break apart the eart around it to create a disgonal tunnel to the surface - making the whole thing only a temporary solution That, or an evil spellcaster who can cast Tongues comes along and agrees to cast Fly on it if it lowers its SR, thus letting it soar out of the hole. As for energy drain, thr post above you explains why that idea isn't so grand, at least not if I'm DM, though you probably took a while typing, so whatever.

Still though, pretty decent ideas.

Eldariel
2010-04-24, 04:09 PM
Since the link has yet eluded this thread, let's just link the Pathfinder Tarrasque (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/tarrasque.html#tarrasque) or "Baby Tarrasque" as we in the business call it (compared to the 3.5 Tarrasque (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm), which is worse in the regard that its feats suck, it entirely lacks a ranged attack instead of just having a poor one and so on, but is much bigger and would eat Baby Tarrasque for breakfast).

But yeah, Big T is basically case-in-point as to why magic, not brute force, reigns supreme in D&D. No matter how impressive your numbers, they won't breach magical barriers (though Wall of Force can actually be penetrated now, which means it merely takes Big T a while to break rather than being completely impregnable), no matter how fast you are a teleport moves faster, no matter how good your defenses, some effects will get past to you. And a single Allip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/allip.htm) can still Wisdom-drain it to oblivion as it's immune to ability damage, not drain. All it takes is Scrying + Teleport + Control Undead. But...if looking for ways to use it, not kill it, well, it'll make for a nice pawn for the Big Bad. If you make it a bit more powerful, it could make for a good world-ending menace. Like, make the ranged attacks actually hit a barndoor and pierce generic protections.

TheMinxTail
2010-04-24, 04:09 PM
House ruling it away certainly works, but FYI the way you drain it to death is with alips or other critters that do AOE drain, or incorporeal undead that glide through the ground underneath it and target it with touch attacks.

Yeah, I remembered the touch attack apect, don't worry. I was jsut refering in case of, say, vampires using slam attacks or however it was they drain energy. Though that isn't ability drain, or is is... Dunno, my friend is in the middle of nstching teh Beastiary from me.

I knwo the house ruling seems cheap, but think about it; if you could cause temporary damage, why would causing permanent damage on the same axis work?

Gnaeus
2010-04-24, 04:12 PM
I knwo the house ruling seems cheap, but think about it; if you could cause temporary damage, why would causing permanent damage on the same axis work?

If I were going to rules lawyer you, I would answer that Drain is more powerful than Damage so immunity to the weaker form doesn't necessarily mean immunity to stronger attacks. I think your ruling is fair, and only cheap if you try to spring it on the players without a way of knowing (like with a knowledge check) that that strategy won't work.

lord_khaine
2010-04-24, 04:14 PM
As i recall the general way of dealing with this thing is just to fly our of range and just spam save or lose spells, like Polymorp any object.

Alternatively it shouldnt be very hard to take down in melee combat with some propper buffing, like improved invisibility.

In the end the Tarrasque is severly overrated in how much danger it pose, the the most powerfull critter from the MM1 is properly the Solar.

TheMinxTail
2010-04-24, 04:17 PM
Dominate Monster. Will is it's lowest defence. Charm monster. Suggestion. Wizards get enough bonus languages they can probably find a way to communicate with it. Just cast fly, then control it. Then make it kill whatever brought it from beneath the earth. Then order it to fail all saves against your spells and use it as a living lawn ornament.

The problem with that idea my good friend is still its Spell Resistence. SR 36 is the main obstacle, not its crappy +12 Will save. This reminds me of the lizard Varsuvius v younger Black Dragon conundrum; Ring of Wizardry, no other spell above 3rd level prepared, nothing else to do with actions but continuously cast and the knowledge that teh Dragon would eventually fumble its save vs. Suggestion. To which the Dragon reponds that the one number he forgot to account for was his hit point total and tries to swallow him whole. Dominate Monster is a close range spell (75 ft. at 20th level), and the range incrment on its spine attacks is 120 - it maximum melee 60 ft., meaning it still factors in if not casting from maximum range.

Oh, yeah, there was one other, teeny tiny thing, what was it... IMMUNITY TO MIND-AFFECTING EFFECTS. Kind of puts a stopper in that plan, sadly.

TheMinxTail
2010-04-24, 04:21 PM
As i recall the general way of dealing with this thing is just to fly our of range and just spam save or lose spells, like Polymorp any object.

Alternatively it shouldnt be very hard to take down in melee combat with some propper buffing, like improved invisibility.

In the end the Tarrasque is severly overrated in how much danger it pose, the the most powerfull critter from the MM1 is properly the Solar.

Most Save v. Death or otherwise pwnt spells are polymorph, major damage or mind-affecting; none of which are effective. And while I agree that some well armed fighters are usually the answer to Spell Resistence 36, the fact taht it can regenerate from a bloody mound of flesh, bones, charred remains, pulp or even ashes and the fact that Fighters can only deal hit point damage in most instances, that plan's out the window. Yeah, the Tarrasque damage kind of sucks per attack on a 30 HD monster, but it doesn't have to hurry; it will always win by attrition if need be.

Eldariel
2010-04-24, 04:21 PM
The problem with that idea my good friend is still its Spell Resistence. SR 36 is the main obstacle, not its crappy +12 Will save.

That's not difficult. A level 20 Wizard can have CL 26 (Beads of Karma, Orange Prism Ioun Stone, Archmage Spell Power), +4 to Spell Penetration and then some. That's PF Core. He needs 6 to pass SR. Outside that...no, it's not gonna be a problem.

But it's immune to mind-affecting so you can't dominate it. You can wreck its combat ability with e.g. Slow though. Or Glitterdust. But you can't actually take its mind, which is a pity. People are thinking of the 3.5 version which doesn't have all the immunities but is otherwise more impressive (as linked).

lord_khaine
2010-04-24, 04:23 PM
The problem with that idea my good friend is still its Spell Resistence. SR 36 is the main obstacle, not its crappy +12 Will save. This reminds me of the lizard Varsuvius v younger Black Dragon conundrum; Ring of Wizardry, no other spell above 3rd level prepared, nothing else to do with actions but continuously cast and the knowledge that teh Dragon would eventually fumble its save vs. Suggestion. To which the Dragon reponds that the one number he forgot to account for was his hit point total and tries to swallow him whole. Dominate Monster is a close range spell (75 ft. at 20th level), and the range incrment on its spine attacks is 120 - it maximum melee 60 ft., meaning it still factors in if not casting from maximum range.

Oh, yeah, there was one other, teeny tiny thing, what was it... IMMUNITY TO MIND-AFFECTING EFFECTS. Kind of puts a stopper in that plan, sadly.

Fortunately Immunity to mindaffects doesnt help against Polymorp attacks.

Also, even though it have gotten a ranget attack in PF, then thats still no help against a invisible Wizard.

Also, SR 36 isnt that much for someone with greater spell penetration or all the other crap that boost caster level, meaning that a simple slow could more or less shut it down totaly.

Eldariel
2010-04-24, 04:25 PM
Fortunately Immunity to mindaffects doesnt help against Polymorp attacks.

Also, even though it have gotten a ranget attack in PF, then thats still no help against a invisible Wizard.

Also, SR 36 isnt that much for someone with greater spell penetration or all the other crap that boost caster level, meaning that a simple slow could more or less shut it down totaly.

AHEM...

"DR 15/epic; Immune ability damage, acid, bleed, disease, energy drain, fire, mind-affecting effects, paralysis, permanent wounds, petrification, poison, polymorph; SR 36"

Check its stuff here (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/tarrasque.html#tarrasque)

TheMinxTail
2010-04-24, 04:27 PM
If I were going to rules lawyer you, I would answer that Drain is more powerful than Damage so immunity to the weaker form doesn't necessarily mean immunity to stronger attacks. I think your ruling is fair, and only cheap if you try to spring it on the players without a way of knowing (like with a knowledge check) that that strategy won't work.

Hm... Maybe I can let the party wizard snag the mastermind's research notes on the Tarasque when they raid the villain's home base at the adventure climax - i.e. a photocopy of its stats out of character. Gives them enough time to prepare whatever spells are effective.

As for the topic of drain, I do see where you're coming from, but my mind tends to work on a round by round basis and I just don't see it working like that. Besides, and more importantly, if they just bet it in one move with a decent check v SR to drain away its measly Intelligence score of 3, it would feel like a bit of an underwhelming victory, wouldn't it?

TheMinxTail
2010-04-24, 04:30 PM
AHEM...

"DR 15/epic; Immune ability damage, acid, bleed, disease, energy drain, fire, mind-affecting effects, paralysis, permanent wounds, petrification, poison, polymorph; SR 36"

Check its stuff here (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/tarrasque.html#tarrasque)

Ooh, a titan ranks and Tarrasque veteran! Welcome to the forum, man. Or woman. Orwhatever you are in between or outside, none of my business. And yeah, I greet everyone that way. I'm fun at paries.

Eldariel
2010-04-24, 04:30 PM
Hm... Maybe I can let the party wizard snag the mastermind's research notes on the Tarasque when they raid the villain's home base at the adventure climax - i.e. a photocopy of its stats out of character. Gives them enough time to prepare whatever spells are effective.

As for the topic of drain, I do see where you're coming from, but my mind tends to work on a round by round basis and I just don't see it working like that. Besides, and more importantly, if they just bet it in one move with a decent check v SR to drain away its measly Intelligence score of 3, it would feel like a bit of an underwhelming victory, wouldn't it?

Int Drain is hard to come by with. But yeah, adding immunity to Ability Drain beforehand is a very fair addition given lacking it makes the thing ridiculously easy to beat. While at it, give it some means to affect incorporeal creatures (like magical attacks instead of just having them count magical for piercing DR) and move more notable distances.

And maybe rip holes to the fabric of space-time enabling it to effectively shift through planes so it's more of a threat to the multiverse than just the material plane.


Ooh, a titan ranks and Tarrasque veteran! Welcome to the forum, man. Or woman. Orwhatever you are in between or outside, none of my business. And yeah, I greet everyone that way. I'm fun at paries.

Yeah, I'm betting you are a riot indeed. Though I don't know how to react so I'll just point you towards my gender-icon. :smallwink:

TheMinxTail
2010-04-24, 04:32 PM
That's not difficult. A level 20 Wizard can have CL 26 (Beads of Karma, Orange Prism Ioun Stone, Archmage Spell Power), +4 to Spell Penetration and then some. That's PF Core. He needs 6 to pass SR. Outside that...no, it's not gonna be a problem.

But it's immune to mind-affecting so you can't dominate it. You can wreck its combat ability with e.g. Slow though. Or Glitterdust. But you can't actually take its mind, which is a pity. People are thinking of the 3.5 version which doesn't have all the immunities but is otherwise more impressive (as linked).

Oh, I didn't really ever play 3rd edition, I'm kind of new. I didn't even know that the Tarrasque existed in past editions, thoug you'd think since I marked the thread for Pathfinder there wouldn't be confusion over that.

Eldariel
2010-04-24, 04:34 PM
Oh, I didn't really ever play 3rd edition, I'm kind of new. I didn't even know that the Tarrasque existed in past editions, thoug you'd think since I marked the thread for Pathfinder there wouldn't be confusion over that.

The Tarrasque draws back all the way to 1st Ed AD&D. But yeah, people probably pick up the "Tarrasque"-part more than the "Pf"-part; it's just how their mind works; Big T is something they're familiar with while Pathfinder is something they are less so.

EDIT: This was mostly to say he's old and legendary. Though not all that scary as a martial monster, but at least he has an impressive stat block :smallamused:

TheMinxTail
2010-04-24, 04:40 PM
Int Drain is hard to come by with. But yeah, adding immunity to Ability Drain beforehand is a very fair addition given lacking it makes the thing ridiculously easy to beat. While at it, give it some means to affect incorporeal creatures (like magical attacks instead of just having them count magical for piercing DR) and move more notable distances.

And maybe rip holes to the fabric of space-time enabling it to effectively shift through planes so it's more of a threat to the multiverse than just the material plane.

Yeah, I'm betting you are a riot indeed. Though I don't know how to react so I'll just point you towards my gender-icon. :smallwink:

We have gender icons? You'd think I'd figure this place halfway figured out by the time I reached halfling rank, but whatever...

Anway *clears throat". Aha, my friend, glad you brought up the aspect of things outside the monster description, I was waiting for someone to do so! Yes, there's no rule that says that it can't form an alliance with an evil wizard to have it cast buff or handy spells - See Invisibility, Plane Shift, Overland Flight, whatever else. Its fun to fight as is if you're a fighter, but jsut for good measure through in buff spells to take down taht pesky wizard who just won't exit the etheral plane long enough to be stepped on! The Tarrasque: when in combinations with super-wizards a normally immovable object becomes and unstoppable force!

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-24, 04:48 PM
This is easy. Grab an empty book with, say, 300 pages. Cast explosive runes on it as many times as you can fit, then cast an area dispel on it after tossing it in the tarrasque's space (use your familiar to drop it). 3,600d6 potential damage later (use assay resistance on it and boost the heck out of your caster level), and it'll be down for awhile. Have the party's melee grunts (planar bound minions, of course) coup de grace it with scythes each round.

In the meantime, spam whatever spells you want on it. Favorites include magic jar, simulacrum, and so on. For extra fun, follow up the magic jar with a mind seed from the party's telepath (if any). Once you're done playing with it, a nice plane shift (unconscious creatures count as willing :smallwink:) should send it to a remote part of, say, the elemental plane of water, or the positive energy plane. Alternately, strap the thing down using whatever means necessary (and have it constantly Wis-drained by control undead'd allips), then hack chunks off to use for various purposes, such as tarrasque carapace-armored vehicles, as well as armors, shields, and even cooking utensils.

Eldariel
2010-04-24, 04:51 PM
We have gender icons? You'd think I'd figure this place halfway figured out by the time I reached halfling rank, but whatever...

Anway *clears throat". Aha, my friend, glad you brought up the aspect of things outside the monster description, I was waiting for someone to do so! Yes, there's no rule that says that it can't form an alliance with an evil wizard to have it cast buff or handy spells - See Invisibility, Plane Shift, Overland Flight, whatever else. Its fun to fight as is if you're a fighter, but jsut for good measure through in buff spells to take down taht pesky wizard who just won't exit the etheral plane long enough to be stepped on! The Tarrasque: when in combinations with super-wizards a normally immovable object becomes and unstoppable force!

The biggest issue with casting buffs is that they need to pierce SR too. 25% chance to fail on attack spells is acceptable, but 25% chance to fail on buffs is annoying. But yeah, I think you might want to give it inherent abilities. If it is the ultimate weapon of a Wizard, he surely has given it the ability to somehow transcend the planes.

And I've always thought the lack of immunity to Ability Drain and the lack of ability to hit incorporeal creatures is just an oversight; that's what we in the business call "easy way out". Note that you aren't forced to use it as written; plugging those holes makes it much harder to just destroy it. And PCs don't know its stats so they can't call foul. It's still beatable.


But yeah, ways to kill it:
There are ways. First is to just beat down its HP and then beat it faster than it regenerates. Then you have an entire generation of "beaters" who each take turns beating it to keep it from regenerating ever. This'll make for a worthy lineage (or just a Beatdown Golem crafted by the Wizard for the express duty of beating it for eternity). Of course, it requires a guy capable of beating it down first, but level 20 adventures can certainly have martial prowess of that level. Strong martial types and indeed, casters buffed to be strong martial types can accomplish this (also, things casters can Gate/Planar Bind in like the one thing stronger than Big T in the Core Pathfinder, the greatest Dragons). This can be aided by magical effects that hamper its combat ability like the aforementioned Glitterdust and Slow. Basically, Will-save affecting effects that don't allow saves. Illusions help too. This is a fair fight and probably the kind of encounter you'd want; everyone does something and works together to bring it down.

Second...well, spamming it with Save-or-X effects until it fails one save enables you to easily reduce it to 0 HP for above bashing to commence. Natural 1 on fortitude save always fails so just hitting it with Death Effects works in the end. This can be done from the safety of flight with wards (or protection) against its ranged attacks. This is probably quite unfulfilling and indeed, you may want to give it something like the Pride-domain granted power that rerolls 1s on saves so they can't just spam it to death, but they have to actually overpower it somehow or hit its weakness (Will-save)

Third, Plane Shift. If you Plane Shift it to the Positive Energy plane, it will overcharge on HP and blow up. Other similarly useful planes exist and indeed make fine means of permanently disposing of the Tarrasque. Also, Plane Shift is a Will-save and it just so happens to have a weakness there. This is another reason the Plane Shifting-ability would be interesting for it; it'd make it far less vulnerable for this.

Fourth, well, as stupid as it is, drowning can kill it. It needs to breathe, eat and sleep as a magical beast. Teleport/Bull Rush it underwater so it'll drown. Or just raise a sea on it. You're a level 20 caster, that's childs' play for you.


For reference also, Magic Jar (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/magicJar.html#magic-jar).

Starbuck_II
2010-04-24, 04:54 PM
This is easy. Grab an empty book with, say, 300 pages. Cast explosive runes on it as many times as you can fit, then cast an area dispel on it after tossing it in the tarrasque's space (use your familiar to drop it). 3,600d6 potential damage later (use assay resistance on it and boost the heck out of your caster level), and it'll be down for awhile. Have the party's melee grunts (planar bound minions, of course) coup de grace it with scythes each round.


Psst: Exlosive Runes has SR.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/explosiverunes.htm

That means you have to roll 300 times to attempt to bypass it.

Nero24200
2010-04-24, 05:00 PM
Something about that angle just seems cheap though.Yeah, I admitt the illusion tactic seems pretty cheap, and even unreliable if you apply some common sense vrs game mechanics (for instance, as you pointed out, the tarrasque would eventually be able to "dig" a slope up and out). However, I think it's oddly fitting this I personally consider any creature with this description...


No form of attack can suppress the tarrasque's regeneration—it regenerates even if disintegrated or slain by a death effect. If the tarrasque fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly, it rises from death 3 rounds later with 1 hit point if no further damage is inflicted upon its remains. It can be banished or otherwise transported as a means to save a region, but the method to truly kill it has yet to be discovered.


...to be a cheap creature in the first place. As I said, barring some highly unothodox tactics, it's a DM fiat creature. Even if you used my "Army of Monsters" tactic you couldn't actually kill it with them. In fact, partly the reason why my "Army of Monsters" tactic is so damm out there is because you would actually be creating an unkillable army.



....I so need to do this as the BBEG's plan. "Yes, Mr Bond, and once I free the Tarrasque my simulacrum machine will create an army of clones...and then I shall destory Paris Mr Bond." The problem being though that if the party failed you pretty much couldn't use that setting again.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-24, 05:05 PM
Psst: Exlosive Runes has SR.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/explosiverunes.htm

That means you have to roll 300 times to attempt to bypass it.Not a big deal if you can succeed on a '1'.

Also, FYI, pages have 2 sides.

TheMinxTail
2010-04-24, 05:06 PM
The biggest issue with casting buffs is that they need to pierce SR too. 25% chance to fail on attack spells is acceptable, but 25% chance to fail on buffs is annoying. But yeah, I think you might want to give it inherent abilities. If it is the ultimate weapon of a Wizard, he surely has given it the ability to somehow transcend the planes.

And I've always thought the lack of immunity to Ability Drain and the lack of ability to hit incorporeal creatures is just an oversight; that's what we in the business call "easy way out". Note that you aren't forced to use it as written; plugging those holes makes it much harder to just destroy it. And PCs don't know its stats so they can't call foul. It's still beatable.


But yeah, ways to kill it:
There are ways. First is to just beat down its HP and then beat it faster than it regenerates. Then you have an entire generation of "beaters" who each take turns beating it to keep it from regenerating ever. This'll make for a worthy lineage (or just a Beatdown Golem crafted by the Wizard for the express duty of beating it for eternity). Of course, it requires a guy capable of beating it down first, but level 20 adventures can certainly have martial prowess of that level. Strong martial types and indeed, casters buffed to be strong martial types can accomplish this (also, things casters can Gate/Planar Bind in like the one thing stronger than Big T in the Core Pathfinder, the greatest Dragons). This can be aided by magical effects that hamper its combat ability like the aforementioned Glitterdust and Slow. Basically, Will-save affecting effects that don't allow saves. Illusions help too. This is a fair fight and probably the kind of encounter you'd want; everyone does something and works together to bring it down.

Second...well, spamming it with Save-or-X effects until it fails one save enables you to easily reduce it to 0 HP for above bashing to commence. Natural 1 on fortitude save always fails so just hitting it with Death Effects works in the end. This can be done from the safety of flight with wards (or protection) against its ranged attacks. This is probably quite unfulfilling and indeed, you may want to give it something like the Pride-domain granted power that rerolls 1s on saves so they can't just spam it to death, but they have to actually overpower it somehow or hit its weakness (Will-save)

Third, Plane Shift. If you Plane Shift it to the Positive Energy plane, it will overcharge on HP and blow up. Other similarly useful planes exist and indeed make fine means of permanently disposing of the Tarrasque. Also, Plane Shift is a Will-save and it just so happens to have a weakness there. This is another reason the Plane Shifting-ability would be interesting for it; it'd make it far less vulnerable for this.

Fourth, well, as stupid as it is, drowning can kill it. It needs to breathe, eat and sleep as a magical beast. Teleport/Bull Rush it underwater so it'll drown. Or just raise a sea on it. You're a level 20 caster, that's childs' play for you.


For reference also, Magic Jar (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/magicJar.html#magic-jar).

I can't believe I didn't notice the whole 'needs to breathe thing'. Can something explode from gaining too much HP on the positive energy plain...? I dunno, but it'd be fun to see. Anyway, if I were to use Plane Shift for anything, it would be to transport it to the elemental plain of water, I guess. That's work. Assuming the evil wizard didn't think to cast a permanent Water Breathing, it'd be fine. It's be funny actually if it just went about for the rest of time killing water elementals until it gained enough experience to gain enough caster levels to plane shift back. Now that would be a truly epic follow up to teh campaign, right? As for SR v buff spells, I think I read that SR is optionally lowered - ie if the villain could communicate an alliance, the Tarrasque could be enclined to dropping the defences to let him cast, say, Bear's Endurance. I'd certainly rule in either case that the villain didn't have to make checks.

Well, you've had better suggestions than some of the dominate the mind-affect-immune monster ideas to say the least. I think I might had the Tarrasque beatable by way of artefact; a weapon could be forged with the ability to overcome its huge regeneration. This might entail teh problem of who wields the Deus Ex Machina blade, but it would take quite a bit of effort for the fighter to solo the beast anyway, so the team would have to work together to even the playing field.

Edit: Hm, I guess I didn't read the entry on Magic Jar thoroughly enough. That'd be good for a laugh - the PCs almost convince the Tarrasque to destroy someone else's world and even pack its luggage then BAM the beaten to a pulp lich sorcerer uses his last spell slot to mind jar into the Tarrasque's body to face off with teh group personally. In this case, does immunity to mind-affecting effects still apply in teh case of necromantic possession?

TheMinxTail
2010-04-24, 05:13 PM
Yeah, I admitt the illusion tactic seems pretty cheap, and even unreliable if you apply some common sense vrs game mechanics (for instance, as you pointed out, the tarrasque would eventually be able to "dig" a slope up and out). However, I think it's oddly fitting this I personally consider any creature with this description...



...to be a cheap creature in the first place. As I said, barring some highly unothodox tactics, it's a DM fiat creature. Even if you used my "Army of Monsters" tactic you couldn't actually kill it with them. In fact, partly the reason why my "Army of Monsters" tactic is so damm out there is because you would actually be creating an unkillable army.



....I so need to do this as the BBEG's plan. "Yes, Mr Bond, and once I free the Tarrasque my simulacrum machine will create an army of clones...and then I shall destory Paris Mr Bond." The problem being though that if the party failed you pretty much couldn't use that setting again.

Such is the problem with taming the untamable emodiments of fury from the dark corners of teh earth - teh Simalcrum Tarrasques would be quite the danger if teh controlling wizard was himself dominated. Or, as wizards with cosmic-scale powers are one to do, get bored with the world being so damn free of Godzillas. "I should engineer together a Mothra clone out of all these goblin corpses! Wait a minute, didn't I already have a huge, world shattering magical dinosaur? Oh yeah, and an army of clones under my control! Weeeeeee!"

Anyway, yeah, it's cheap, I'll admit it. But it's also the ultimate punching bag - conventional methods are useless against it. It takes what's awesome about fighting an army of zombies (fancy invulnerabilities) as opposed to just about any other non-extraplanar threat and magnifies it into being something ridiculous and awesome... if you're not on the recieving end, that is.

TheMinxTail
2010-04-24, 05:19 PM
This is easy. Grab an empty book with, say, 300 pages. Cast explosive runes on it as many times as you can fit, then cast an area dispel on it after tossing it in the tarrasque's space (use your familiar to drop it). 3,600d6 potential damage later (use assay resistance on it and boost the heck out of your caster level), and it'll be down for awhile. Have the party's melee grunts (planar bound minions, of course) coup de grace it with scythes each round.

In the meantime, spam whatever spells you want on it. Favorites include magic jar, simulacrum, and so on. For extra fun, follow up the magic jar with a mind seed from the party's telepath (if any). Once you're done playing with it, a nice plane shift (unconscious creatures count as willing :smallwink:) should send it to a remote part of, say, the elemental plane of water, or the positive energy plane. Alternately, strap the thing down using whatever means necessary (and have it constantly Wis-drained by control undead'd allips), then hack chunks off to use for various purposes, such as tarrasque carapace-armored vehicles, as well as armors, shields, and even cooking utensils.

The rest of the post seemed pretty cool right up to cooking utensils. What?

Hmm... if you cut of parts of the Tarrasques body and then maim those parts, would they regenerate themselves? Probably not. An explosive ruins A-Bomb though, that's awesome right there.

Nero24200
2010-04-24, 05:19 PM
Alternatively, the Sphere of Annialation works the same in PF as it does in 3.5Even if a Tarrasque survies it, it is still sucked into a void. Take one, move it to an appropraite location, the cover it with an illusion. Repeat the floating ham tactic.

Eldariel
2010-04-24, 05:22 PM
I can't believe I didn't notice the whole 'needs to breathe thing'. Can something explode from gaining too much HP on the positive energy plain...? I dunno, but it'd be fun to see. Anyway, if I were to use Plane Shift for anything, it would be to transport it to the elemental plain of water, I guess. That's work. Assuming the evil wizard didn't think to cast a permanent Water Breathing, it'd be fine.

That...might just get Dispelled before it gets Plane Shifted though. Arcane Sight is pretty commonly available at that point so they'll know if it's magically augmented. But yeah, Positive Energy Plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#positiveEnergyPlane) is Majorly Positive Dominant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#positiveDominant) which means all creatures on it gain Fast Healing 5 (or 5 Temp HP per turn if they're at full HP, which thanks to T's Reg is basically always) and when their HP exceeds its HP total, it'll eventually fail that Fortitude-save and explode in a riot of light. There's no way to counter that other than being immune to Fort-saves.


It's be funny actually if it just went about for the rest of time killing water elementals until it gained enough experience to gain enough caster levels to plane shift back. Now that would be a truly epic follow up to teh campaign, right? As for SR v buff spells, I think I read that SR is optionally lowered - ie if the villain could communicate an alliance, the Tarrasque could be enclined to dropping the defences to let him cast, say, Bear's Endurance. I'd certainly rule in either case that the villain didn't have to make checks.

Spell Resistance (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/glossary.html#spell-resistance) may be lowered voluntarily, but doing so is a standard action so it's a slow business and leaves him vulnerable to non-friendly spells too. And yeah, Tarrasque with PC classes is pretty scary. Tarrasque Cleric (of himself) in particular can be quite scary, but I wouldn't unleash that on a non-epic party unless I was sure of their optimization skills.


Well, you've had better suggestions than some of the dominate the mind-affect-immune monster ideas to say the least. I think I might had the Tarrasque beatable by way of artefact; a weapon could be forged with the ability to overcome its huge regeneration. This might entail teh problem of who wields the Deus Ex Machina blade, but it would take quite a bit of effort for the fighter to solo the beast anyway, so the team would have to work together to even the playing field.

Eh, it's generally less fulfilling to need The One Ring to defeat it when you're of such power level that you could do it normally. Regeneration 40 isn't really that bad; a level 20 character can easily deal 200-300 points of damage per round, more if buffed. If there's a party of them, they'll have no trouble overcoming its Reg even with the DR.

You may want to check the fights in the link I gave you in the very beginning; that's a lone Fighter taking on the Tarrasque. Let me assure you, dealing sufficient damage is not the issue with beating him. Heck, the third of the characters is doable (with a bit different build) in PF Core.


Edit: Hm, I guess I didn't read the entry on Magic Jar thoroughly enough. That'd be good for a laugh - the PCs almost convince the Tarrasque to destroy someone else's world and even pack its luggage then BAM the beaten to a pulp lich sorcerer uses his last spell slot to mind jar into the Tarrasque's body to face off with teh group personally. In this case, does immunity to mind-affecting effects still apply in teh case of necromantic possession?

Magic Jar lacks the mind-affecting tag :smallamused:

lord_khaine
2010-04-24, 06:43 PM
AHEM...

"DR 15/epic; Immune ability damage, acid, bleed, disease, energy drain, fire, mind-affecting effects, paralysis, permanent wounds, petrification, poison, polymorph; SR 36"

Ahh, so they did fix the most common way of taking the critter down, though slow and invisibility still remains to take it down when you have a party behind you.

Eldariel
2010-04-24, 06:50 PM
Btw, I tossed together a generic PF Core Orc Fighter that could quite possibly beat the Tarrasque senseless for eternity with little trouble thanks to Magic Item Mojo. Sheet here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=202744). Again, Fighter 20 'cause I guess it's best for making the point. It has constant AC 57 & 50% miss chance and immunity to criticals so Big T should have relatively big trouble relevantly inconveniencing him; hits on 1 (PA and stuff accounted for in the To Hit). And he can charge for ~200 points of damage or full attack for similar numbers. He should really have little trouble taking it out.

krossbow
2010-04-24, 07:13 PM
F*%& YOUR FLIGHT. The tarrasque comes for you all!

http://1d4chan.org/images/e/ed/Balloon_Tarrasque.png

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-24, 07:14 PM
F*%& YOUR FLIGHT.That's what he/she/it said!

Starbuck_II
2010-04-24, 07:15 PM
Mr. T isn't smart enough to build a blimp. So while cute, that is an unlikely situation.

krossbow
2010-04-24, 07:16 PM
Mr. T isn't smart enough to build a blimp.

http://screenrant.com/wp-content/uploads/Mr.-T.jpg

Starbuck_II
2010-04-24, 07:23 PM
I pity the foo that counts on Mr. T to build him a blimp. Build your own blimp. Mr. T can't build that.


Likely, the blimp was created by a BBEG so you just need to stop the BBEG or find out how it controls Mr T.

Runestar
2010-04-24, 07:30 PM
Even without resorting to tricks, I don't see how the tarrasque can pose a challenge. The sad reality is that higher lv monsters just don't stand a chance without some magical support or tricks up its sleeve. Straight melee is simply too easily countered, because the tarrasque has no means of forcing the party to fight on its terms.

For instance, I could have the party caster hit it with a heightened slow, which limits it to just 1 melee attack/round. I noticed it also has a fairly potent ranged attack, but the attack bonus stinks (why didn't the designers give it brutal throw, which lets it use its str on thrown weapons?). Then just surround the big T and pound away.

In fact, in a 3.5 game, my 14th lv party managed to take down the tarrasque in this exact same fashion. Wizard+assay resistance+arcane mastery = negligible sr. :smallamused:

TheMinxTail
2010-04-25, 06:05 AM
Even without resorting to tricks, I don't see how the tarrasque can pose a challenge. The sad reality is that higher lv monsters just don't stand a chance without some magical support or tricks up its sleeve. Straight melee is simply too easily countered, because the tarrasque has no means of forcing the party to fight on its terms.

For instance, I could have the party caster hit it with a heightened slow, which limits it to just 1 melee attack/round. I noticed it also has a fairly potent ranged attack, but the attack bonus stinks (why didn't the designers give it brutal throw, which lets it use its str on thrown weapons?). Then just surround the big T and pound away.

In fact, in a 3.5 game, my 14th lv party managed to take down the tarrasque in this exact same fashion. Wizard+assay resistance+arcane mastery = negligible sr. :smallamused:

Yeah, 3.5 maybe, but Pathfinder bulks up its stats immensly - in particular giving it regeneration 40 that can't be overcome by even Disintegrate or death attacks.

TheMinxTail
2010-04-25, 06:26 AM
And yeah, Tarrasque with PC classes is pretty scary. Tarrasque Cleric (of himself) in particular can be quite scary, but I wouldn't unleash that on a non-epic party unless I was sure of their optimization skills.

Don't worry, the return of the Tarrasque with class levels would be reserved for an epic party. Hmm... that would be a pretty cool adventure though. Picture it; after the Tarrasque is 'defeated' by Plane Shifting to he Plane of Elemental Water, Water Breathing left undispelled because the PCs were in such a hurry to beat it that they forgot to even check, and the DM thereafter orders them to roll up new characters for another mid- or high-level campaign. At some point, using the same setting by the way, the PCs need to gather some Macguffins from each of the Elemental Plains (I say each because if it was just the water plain they might grow suspicious). The Cleric Plane Shifts them out systematicallly as they go for a by the book routine of snatching what they need before they get rushed by elementals, when all of a sudden, the second they shift in - the Tarrasque emerges from teh darkness, now with Self-Cleric Kung Fu Action! The story I guess would be that the Tarrasque had been building up the XP for high enough levels in Cleric to escape by itself, but halfwaythrough teh PCs walk in. It uses its surprise round to incapacitate - but not kill - the Party Cleric, so as to later force him to cast Plane Shift on its behalf so that it might tear through reality once more! You have to admit there would be something awesome about that, even if you were the random PC who got chewed to death by it.
And don't worry - I'd let the PCs use Epic power by the time they had to face it for real.


Eh, it's generally less fulfilling to need The One Ring to defeat it when you're of such power level that you could do it normally. Regeneration 40 isn't really that bad; a level 20 character can easily deal 200-300 points of damage per round, more if buffed. If there's a party of them, they'll have no trouble overcoming its Reg even with the DR.

I suppose you might be right... What if an epic wizard cast buff spells on the whole party that allowed them to cease its regeneration? I'd triple the things hit points and give it a few better attacks and will caves to actually even the odds though, since regeneneration is the real obstacle with that thing. That or the PCs could just whack it until one too many concussions forced it to see the value of human life, it took teh Vow of Nonviolence feat and defended the world as a new Cleric to whoever teh got of tea cosies is, and they all lived happily ever after. Until the villain tried the cliched way of counter acting brain damage - MORE brain damage. Or Magic Jar, whatever.

Reminds me of this one idea I had - an epic wizard finds away to overcome its Polymorph and Mind-Affecting immunities, and seals its memories away, turning it into some run of the mill adventurer (only its awesome regeneration, though at a scaled rate, remaining). Over the course of however long it takes for the Tarrasque to regain its memories, it has learne dteh value of the world it almost destroyed and instead becomes its greatest defender. The End.

Nostalgia Critic: OR IS IT? :smallamused:

vegetalss4
2010-04-25, 06:27 AM
Yeah, 3.5 maybe, but Pathfinder bulks up its stats immensly - in particular giving it regeneration 40 that can't be overcome by even Disintegrate or death attacks.

it had that already.

TheMinxTail
2010-04-25, 06:32 AM
Alternatively, the Sphere of Annialation works the same in PF as it does in 3.5Even if a Tarrasque survies it, it is still sucked into a void. Take one, move it to an appropraite location, the cover it with an illusion. Repeat the floating ham tactic.

Hmm... Sphere of Annihalation... its an Artefact so teh PCs couldn't makeit themselves, but I could run a couple of adventures revolving around them retrieving one from,oh let's say, the Briefcase from Pulp Fiction.

TheMinxTail
2010-04-25, 06:33 AM
it had that already.

Really? I dunno, I don't own a monster manual for 3.5 or 3rd edition. A frined of mine might, but I don't have it handy either way.

Prime32
2010-04-25, 06:40 AM
Really? I dunno, I don't own a monster manual for 3.5 or 3rd edition. A frined of mine might, but I don't have it handy either way.It was already linked (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm).

Side-note: in earlier editions the tarrasque had an ability called "Sharpness Bite" which caused its bite attack to sever limbs randomly.

The Cat Goddess
2010-04-25, 06:58 AM
1) Could someone post the link to the "an unconcious subject is automatically willing" rule? There was an argument about this at my last game (fireball on the party camp).

2) The PF Tarrasque is not immune to Cold(?!), nor does it's Carapace deflect Orbs... so spam-Orbs of Frost FTW (Sonic & Force work too). Once the Tarrasque is at neg HP... simply apply constructs (5 creatures doing 23+ points per round each) for eternal neg HP.

Graymayre
2010-04-25, 07:04 AM
kill it, cut it into pieces, and put said pieces in sealed jars of acid.

Graymayre
2010-04-25, 07:05 AM
kill it, cut it into pieces, and put said pieces in sealed jars of acid.

Or if you're feeling lucky, feed it to a village. I highly doubt it can still regenerate after being turned into ground up waste.

The Cat Goddess
2010-04-25, 07:07 AM
kill it, cut it into pieces, and put said pieces in sealed jars of acid.

Or if you're feeling lucky, feed it to a village. I highly doubt it can still regenerate after being turned into ground up waste.

Immune to Acid... thus, the pieces would regenerate (causing villagers to explode) and merge together again in 3 rounds!

Graymayre
2010-04-25, 07:10 AM
Immune to Acid... thus, the pieces would regenerate (causing villagers to explode) and merge together again in 3 rounds!

Well, the digestive system causes crushing damage as well, so if they eat really fast...

Like in a Tarrasque eating contest! Come one come all! Test your stomachs against the mighty Tarra of Terror! We got Tarrasque pies, soups, sushi, steaks! We even got a Tarrasque dog! First Prize gets the XP!

2xMachina
2010-04-25, 07:11 AM
Or each piece turns into a Terrasque!


1) Could someone post the link to the "an unconcious subject is automatically willing" rule? There was an argument about this at my last game (fireball on the party camp).

No link, but what has fireball got to do with willing?

(Also, edit button exists)

The Cat Goddess
2010-04-25, 07:13 AM
Or each piece turns into a Terrasque!



No link, but what has fireball got to do with willing?

(Also, edit button exists)

Willing means you don't save against the spell. (See example of Plane-shifting unconcious Tarrasque.)

2xMachina
2010-04-25, 07:28 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm

^ Under Targets, says Unconscious is always willing.

However, this only applies to Spells that targets willing creatures.

Your fireball? Doesn't care if you're willing or not. Also, you can give up a save, but only when conscious.

However, IIRC, you don't get to roll reflex saves if you can't react to it. So the fireball should do full damage.

EDIT: The no reflex thing... isn't actually true. It's a usual houserule, but RAW, nothing says you can't reflex save while unconscious. Probably while tied too.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-25, 07:52 AM
1) Could someone post the link to the "an unconcious subject is automatically willing" rule? There was an argument about this at my last game (fireball on the party camp).

2) The PF Tarrasque is not immune to Cold(?!), nor does it's Carapace deflect Orbs... so spam-Orbs of Frost FTW (Sonic & Force work too). Once the Tarrasque is at neg HP... simply apply constructs (5 creatures doing 23+ points per round each) for eternal neg HP.http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=unconscious+creatures+are+automatically+consider ed+willing+d20srd.org&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

Also, an ubercharger could fairly easily take it out in a single round, though you may want the party's wizard to cast true strike on him first (or better yet, give him a spell storing ring, in which true strike was cast earlier).

You could have the party's totemist or psychic warrior grapple it while the wizard does nasty and bad things to it.

Sic Tucker's Kobolds after it.

Toss a dust of sneezing and choking at it, then proceed to hamper it with any and/or all of the following: entangle, a net, a lasso, grease, solid fog, ray of exhaustion, waves of exhaustion, ray of enfeeblement, tanglefoot bags, slow, glitterdust, ghoul touch, summon swarm (make it nauseated), bestow curse, blindness AND deafness, stinking cloud, symbol of sleep, symbol of pain, transmute flesh to stone, acid fog, eyebite, magic jar, power word: blind, forcecage, reverse gravity, dimensional anchor and/or lock (though I'm not 100% sure why you'd want to), trap the soul, power word: stun, temporal stasis, imprisonment, deceleration, entangling ectoplasm, energy stun, fate link (for negative levels not based on energy drain), psionic blast, fuse flesh, decerebrate, ectoplasmic cocoon (and the mass version), crystallize, and anything you can find outside of Core + the XPH, and go to town with whatever you want to do to it.

Or, you could cast sanctify the wicked on it, to turn it Good.

TheMinxTail
2010-04-25, 07:54 AM
Well, the digestive system causes crushing damage as well, so if they eat really fast...

Like in a Tarrasque eating contest! Come one come all! Test your stomachs against the mighty Tarra of Terror! We got Tarrasque pies, soups, sushi, steaks! We even got a Tarrasque dog! First Prize gets the XP!

Or feed it to a white dragon (its insides are pretty cold, a great wyrm might actually have enough damage per round to hold back its regeneration). Would it be able to regenerate from fecal matter? Hmm... It wouldn't react with stomach acid or much else I imagine. Maybe you could cast Eternal Indigestion (a wizard did it) on the White Wyrm and just have the Tarrasque's chewed up remains sit in its stomach for a few hundred years until it croaks it. Then you have to kill it all over again... unless you feed the dragon to and ven bigger dragon, ad infinitum!

Overlord Mao (Disgaea 3): Mwuhahahahahaha!

Starbuck_II
2010-04-25, 07:56 AM
kill it, cut it into pieces, and put said pieces in sealed jars of acid.

Or if you're feeling lucky, feed it to a village. I highly doubt it can still regenerate after being turned into ground up waste.

Mr. T don't regenerate as the noun anymore. Only in 2E did you grow back from pieces. It just lowers damage to nonlethal.

TheMinxTail
2010-04-25, 07:58 AM
Or, you could cast sanctify the wicked on it, to turn it Good.

Sanctify the Wicked...? Sounds mind-affecting, probably but not definetely useless against PF Tarrasque, but what source is it from? I'm borrowing by friend's laptop full of DnD pdf's, I might just have it here.

TheMinxTail
2010-04-25, 08:00 AM
Mr. T don't regenerate as the noun anymore. Only in 2E did you grow back from pieces. It just lowers damage to nonlethal.

Able to regenerate from disintegrate. I think he can regenerate from being eaten or chopped into pieces. I pity the fool who uses death attacks!

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-25, 08:08 AM
Sanctify the Wicked...? Sounds mind-affecting, probably but not definetely useless against PF Tarrasque, but what source is it from? I'm borrowing by friend's laptop full of DnD pdf's, I might just have it here.Sanctify the wicked is a necromancy spell from the Book of Erotic Evil ExoticDancing Exalted Deeds, and it's not [mind-affecting]. It just strips a creature's essence and/or soul from it (Will negates), and forces it to contemplate its evil actions for a year. If it survives, it turns Good on a failed Will save.

Its body is destroyed. It's a pretty evil spell, actually, [Good] or not.

TheMinxTail
2010-04-25, 08:20 AM
Sanctify the wicked is a [Good] necromancy spell from the Book of Erotic Evil ExoticDancing Exalted Deeds, and it's not [mind-affecting]. It just strips a creature's essence and/or soul from it (Will negates), and forces it to contemplate its evil actions for a year. If it survives, it turns Good on a failed Will save.

Of course, it goes without food and water for a year, which would kill it. It's a pretty evil spell, actually, [Good] or not.

Did you read the Book of Erotic Fantasy? Not as intresting as it sounds, but pretty pictures, heh.

Yeah, ignoring the fact that there's a crap load of inherent evil in there that would trump it being a 'Good' spell (I think the cynical-ass party wizard might actually have more qualms about the breash of freewill than the LG Cleric), the one disadvantage other than the costs is the time it takes before its safe to release the thing. That's a whole year that some evil doer could show up and destroy the receptacle to free the Tarrasque. I suppose it would put a stopper on the campaign, but you just know there would be a follow up adventure or two when the PCs specialy tailored dungeon created for the precise purpose of defending the receptacle was infiltrated by, say, Xykon.

On teh other hand, assuming success, the forces of good just got themselves a powerful defender.

Tinydwarfman
2010-04-25, 08:23 AM
What exactly is the problem here? Any optimized melee can kill it in one round, and presumably they have casters to keep it dead. Don't coddle your PCs with artifacts, force them to be smart! This this is easily beatable.

EDIT: You do know that PF is not actually a separate edition than 3.5, but is actually just a big collection of of houserules for 3.5? There is almost nothing original in it.

2xMachina
2010-04-25, 08:49 AM
RE: StW

Find a fast time plane. Toss the diamond there. Pooh, fast StW, ala mindrape.

TheMinxTail
2010-04-25, 08:58 AM
What exactly is the problem here? Any optimized melee can kill it in one round, and presumably they have casters to keep it dead. Don't coddle your PCs with artifacts, force them to be smart! This this is easily beatable.

EDIT: You do know that PF is not actually a separate edition than 3.5, but is actually just a big collection of of houserules for 3.5? There is almost nothing original in it.

Yeah I know all that, but the differences are significant in the case of the Tarrasque, in that it apparently has all sorts of immunities that it didn't have before in PF. Also, Pathfinder is the only sourcebook related to 3.5 that I own a physical copy of, so whatever. As for the artefact stuff, they can kill the Tarrasque easily, teh problem is keeping it dead.

TheMinxTail
2010-04-25, 09:00 AM
RE: StW

Find a fast time plane. Toss the diamond there. Pooh, fast StW, ala mindrape.

Oh, forgot about fast time planes. But then, none of my players own manual to the planes. If they chose to kill it that way, I would first have to tell them taht time can work that way. Good idea though.

Eldariel
2010-04-25, 01:39 PM
Frankly, want the fight to be a tough physical fight at the end of which they can finally end Tarrasque? Return the 3.X clause where a Wish or a Miracle (cast the hard way, paying XP and all) can stop it from being reborn.

The 3.5 version (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm) specifically regenerates everything but a Wish after beating it senseless can end it permanently.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-25, 01:47 PM
Frankly, want the fight to be a tough physical fight at the end of which they can finally end Tarrasque? Return the 3.X clause where a Wish or a Miracle (cast the hard way, paying XP and all) can stop it from being reborn.

The 3.5 version (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm) specifically regenerates everything but a Wish after beating it senseless can end it permanently.Doesn't help if it's constantly exploding/drowning/being eaten by the raw forces of entropy on an entirely different plane.

Once you've sent it to the Far Realm, it's in for an eternity of brainspiders whether it likes it or not.

Plus, this makes body-swapping even better.

Eldariel
2010-04-25, 02:44 PM
Doesn't help if it's constantly exploding/drowning/being eaten by the raw forces of entropy on an entirely different plane.

True, true, but giving it planeshifting, removing its need to breathe, eat and sleep (but it does that anyways 'cause it's Big T) and making it immune to Ability Drain makes it slightly more difficult to kill the easy way already. If one wants it to be an actual tank instead of a glass howitzer. Magic Jar is hawt tho.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-25, 02:48 PM
True, true, but giving it planeshifting, removing its need to breathe, eat and sleep (but it does that anyways 'cause it's Big T) and making it immune to Ability Drain makes it slightly more difficult to kill the easy way already. If one wants it to be an actual tank instead of a glass howitzer. Magic Jar is hawt tho.

But Big T does need to eat/sleep, otherwise he 'd never wake up. Best part regeneration doesn't stop nonlethal from starving.

olelia
2010-04-25, 02:49 PM
That's why he eats his own flesh and just regenerates the chunk he bit off :smallbiggrin:.