rubycona
2010-04-24, 05:44 PM
Hey, all.
Ok, we had a very, very, very unfortunate event happen yesterday during a game (Pathfinder with lots of 3.5 books) in which I was a player. A fellow player had an item... more specifically, his single most valued possession... pickpocketed.
However, it really looks like the DM made a mistake here to me, but I hesitate to bring it up with him until I double check the details. I did speak with the DM and confirmed he wasn't, as a DM, trying to take that item away from the player, it simply was the most valuable looking item the player had, and he was hoping it would lead into an encounter.
Anyway, so it's not a DM-fiat.
The DM thought that the dagger counted as "unattended," which had previously been described as being strapped in a special, hidden scabbard in the player's sleeve, pressed up to his arm, and it was pickpocketed during, ironically, a trap-disabling attempt. It, along with, between the two of us, 10 lbs of coinage in our coinpurses, were snatched by this invisible pickpocket, we failed our perception checks with 22 and 18 respectively, at level 6, and we didn't notice this till nearly an hour later when we needed the dagger.
According to page 174 (and a few others) of Pathfinder Core, "An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character’s saving throw bonus)." I can't find anything Specifically detailing attended items, but it repeatedly states, "grasped, touched, or worn" in the various descriptions.
Which suggests to me that the dagger counted as being attended, being as the hilt was pressed against the player's skin (so touched), and strapped to his wrist (so worn).
I can't seem to find more specific details on what exactly can be sleight-of-hand lifted away. It does say, you can palm a "coin sized, unattended object," but it also says stuff like being able to lift coin purses, and gives the DC 20 thing about taking something from another creature... which, almost by definition, would have to be "attended," if "attended" is "grasped, touched, or worn." But, it doesn't seem to say anything about the size of object that can be lifted with this DC 20 check, or specify attended or not, in that section of Sleight of Hand.
It was invisible, hence why it could do this and not get spotted. But... really, no matter how dexterous it is, considering the weight alone that was snatched, we should have noticed it. Maybe not the Instant it was taken, but maybe a round or two later. It just doesn't make Sense to me that with pretty good perception checks (again, 22 for him, and 18 for me) that we didn't notice 10 lbs of coinage and the dagger which is constantly pressing against his skin, that we didn't notice these things missing for so long?
So basically, it seems to me there must be some rule or something, somewhere, that clarifies this. There Has to be a weight limit or something. That won't necessarily save his dagger, of course, but this isn't so much about changing what has happened as it is understanding how it works in the future. And more importantly, how to safeguard our items in the future from invisible pickpockets.
Though, how much more cautious can you get beyond literally having the dagger pressed against your skin?
Thanks for your help, all!
Ok, we had a very, very, very unfortunate event happen yesterday during a game (Pathfinder with lots of 3.5 books) in which I was a player. A fellow player had an item... more specifically, his single most valued possession... pickpocketed.
However, it really looks like the DM made a mistake here to me, but I hesitate to bring it up with him until I double check the details. I did speak with the DM and confirmed he wasn't, as a DM, trying to take that item away from the player, it simply was the most valuable looking item the player had, and he was hoping it would lead into an encounter.
Anyway, so it's not a DM-fiat.
The DM thought that the dagger counted as "unattended," which had previously been described as being strapped in a special, hidden scabbard in the player's sleeve, pressed up to his arm, and it was pickpocketed during, ironically, a trap-disabling attempt. It, along with, between the two of us, 10 lbs of coinage in our coinpurses, were snatched by this invisible pickpocket, we failed our perception checks with 22 and 18 respectively, at level 6, and we didn't notice this till nearly an hour later when we needed the dagger.
According to page 174 (and a few others) of Pathfinder Core, "An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character’s saving throw bonus)." I can't find anything Specifically detailing attended items, but it repeatedly states, "grasped, touched, or worn" in the various descriptions.
Which suggests to me that the dagger counted as being attended, being as the hilt was pressed against the player's skin (so touched), and strapped to his wrist (so worn).
I can't seem to find more specific details on what exactly can be sleight-of-hand lifted away. It does say, you can palm a "coin sized, unattended object," but it also says stuff like being able to lift coin purses, and gives the DC 20 thing about taking something from another creature... which, almost by definition, would have to be "attended," if "attended" is "grasped, touched, or worn." But, it doesn't seem to say anything about the size of object that can be lifted with this DC 20 check, or specify attended or not, in that section of Sleight of Hand.
It was invisible, hence why it could do this and not get spotted. But... really, no matter how dexterous it is, considering the weight alone that was snatched, we should have noticed it. Maybe not the Instant it was taken, but maybe a round or two later. It just doesn't make Sense to me that with pretty good perception checks (again, 22 for him, and 18 for me) that we didn't notice 10 lbs of coinage and the dagger which is constantly pressing against his skin, that we didn't notice these things missing for so long?
So basically, it seems to me there must be some rule or something, somewhere, that clarifies this. There Has to be a weight limit or something. That won't necessarily save his dagger, of course, but this isn't so much about changing what has happened as it is understanding how it works in the future. And more importantly, how to safeguard our items in the future from invisible pickpockets.
Though, how much more cautious can you get beyond literally having the dagger pressed against your skin?
Thanks for your help, all!