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View Full Version : Perception VS Sleight of Hand?



rubycona
2010-04-24, 05:44 PM
Hey, all.

Ok, we had a very, very, very unfortunate event happen yesterday during a game (Pathfinder with lots of 3.5 books) in which I was a player. A fellow player had an item... more specifically, his single most valued possession... pickpocketed.

However, it really looks like the DM made a mistake here to me, but I hesitate to bring it up with him until I double check the details. I did speak with the DM and confirmed he wasn't, as a DM, trying to take that item away from the player, it simply was the most valuable looking item the player had, and he was hoping it would lead into an encounter.

Anyway, so it's not a DM-fiat.

The DM thought that the dagger counted as "unattended," which had previously been described as being strapped in a special, hidden scabbard in the player's sleeve, pressed up to his arm, and it was pickpocketed during, ironically, a trap-disabling attempt. It, along with, between the two of us, 10 lbs of coinage in our coinpurses, were snatched by this invisible pickpocket, we failed our perception checks with 22 and 18 respectively, at level 6, and we didn't notice this till nearly an hour later when we needed the dagger.

According to page 174 (and a few others) of Pathfinder Core, "An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character’s saving throw bonus)." I can't find anything Specifically detailing attended items, but it repeatedly states, "grasped, touched, or worn" in the various descriptions.

Which suggests to me that the dagger counted as being attended, being as the hilt was pressed against the player's skin (so touched), and strapped to his wrist (so worn).

I can't seem to find more specific details on what exactly can be sleight-of-hand lifted away. It does say, you can palm a "coin sized, unattended object," but it also says stuff like being able to lift coin purses, and gives the DC 20 thing about taking something from another creature... which, almost by definition, would have to be "attended," if "attended" is "grasped, touched, or worn." But, it doesn't seem to say anything about the size of object that can be lifted with this DC 20 check, or specify attended or not, in that section of Sleight of Hand.

It was invisible, hence why it could do this and not get spotted. But... really, no matter how dexterous it is, considering the weight alone that was snatched, we should have noticed it. Maybe not the Instant it was taken, but maybe a round or two later. It just doesn't make Sense to me that with pretty good perception checks (again, 22 for him, and 18 for me) that we didn't notice 10 lbs of coinage and the dagger which is constantly pressing against his skin, that we didn't notice these things missing for so long?

So basically, it seems to me there must be some rule or something, somewhere, that clarifies this. There Has to be a weight limit or something. That won't necessarily save his dagger, of course, but this isn't so much about changing what has happened as it is understanding how it works in the future. And more importantly, how to safeguard our items in the future from invisible pickpockets.

Though, how much more cautious can you get beyond literally having the dagger pressed against your skin?

Thanks for your help, all!

Harperfan7
2010-04-25, 01:30 AM
You can sleight of hand lift anything up to the size of a loaf of bread.

Personally, as a DM, I would have just increased the DC by 5 or so for circumstance (the dagger being where it was), but the guy was invisible, so its hard to say. Real life pickpockets can steal worn belts and bracelets, but they are usually distracting you with words and gestures.

ForzaFiori
2010-04-25, 01:35 AM
I'm not sure about the rules, but in real life, stealing bags and worn items happens all the time. The problem with a worn item is that after you have had it for a while (always wearing a watch, or having a dagger attached to you, or a bag hanging off your waist), when it is removed, most people have a "phantom item" much like phantom pain after an amputation. It feels like the item is still there. I can also attest to having seen in person a person take a a watch off someones wrist without them noticing (he gave it back afterwards. One of my friends is REALLY good at that stuff and was showing off). Many pickpocket gangs also specialized in stealing coin purses, and people rarely noticed that till later also.

ka_bna
2010-04-25, 04:43 AM
I'm not sure about PF, but in 3.5 it struck me that you would get no saves (oddly).
In 3.5: If you try to take something from another creature, you must make a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check to obtain it. The opponent makes a Spot check to detect the attempt, opposed by the same Sleight of Hand check result you achieved when you tried to grab the item. An opponent who succeeds on this check notices the attempt, regardless of whether you got the item. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/sleightOfHand.htm)

So my question would be: under PF, would you get a saving throw to prevent a sleight of hand? If so, you'd be entitled one. If no, you'd be not.

As for how to prevent pickpockets stealing one item, some thoughts:
- Put the item in a handy haversack
- Put the item in a bag of holding
- Put the item in a bag of tricks (if the DM allows it)
- Coat the item in some glue or poison
- Stick the item to a locking gauntlet
- Wildshape (hey, my gear merges with me! Pickpocket that!)
- Have multiple daggers on your skin, so the thief must guess which one to take.

Curmudgeon
2010-04-25, 06:33 AM
I've glanced over the PF rules for Sleight of Hand, and they don't appear to be different from the D&D 3.5 rules. (Perception instead of Spot is the only substitution.) This is an opposed skill check, with no saving throws involved. So it's possible for this item to be lifted with Sleight of Hand -- but you've got to get the DC right. In D&D, the DC to lift a sheathed weapon is 50 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#sleightOfHand). My guess is your DM didn't set the appropriate DC for the thief's attempt.