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Paulus
2010-04-24, 11:06 PM
I'm making an extremely agile Catfolk Bard who relies more on music/bows then he does spells, which means Cha is low and Dex is high. I'm going sub optimized just for the fun and RP potential instead of super tricking him out for spells or combat, so it'll be straight bard. Not a full spell caster, in fact casting is an afterthought, won't be a superb bowman, but I was going for just decent with a bow.


Level 16 Catfolk Bard, 32 point buy.
Str:14
Dex:30 (16 +4 Racial +4 lvl +6 gloves of dexterity) Wheeeee!
Con:18 (14 +4 amulet of health)
Int:10
Wis:10
Cha:16 (14 +2 Racial)

WBL $200,000gp
$-64,000gp Bracers of Armor
$-50,000gp +5 Ring of Protection
$-36,000gp Gloves of Dexterity
$-5,300gp Handy Haversack, Survival Pouch
$-25,000 Cloak of Resistance
$-16,000 Amulet of Health

Feats
1. Weapon Finesse
3. Melodic Casting
6. Catfolk Pounce
9.
12.
15.


I considered going TWF including rend, but I think I'd rather go archer for this build. I was thinking of an Elvencraft short bow (Yeah, I've been watching too much Avatar) but would rather just see if anybody else had better suggestions for weapons etc. Basically he'll be singing, using spells that only buff the party, heal, or utility like grease, and stuff so he doesn't need a high DC. What I'm asking is this: What does he need to be decent with a bow? Point blank? Many shot? Rapid shot? All books available. Thanks!

Pluto
2010-04-25, 01:21 AM
Good archer bards usually involve Arcane Archer 2/Sublime Chord and/or a few feats/spells/moneys invested in Inspire Courage.

I have no idea what's going on with those feats, though. Catfolk Pounce only affects one attack per combat and only when you get the jump on the other group. And, unless you have a lot of bonus damage, characters who can benefit from Weapon Finesse tend to have no reason to take Weapon Finesse -- melee with finesse weapons and low strength puts you in the front line, but doesn't help you contribute while there.

Melodic Casting's good, though. And Precise Shot and Rapid Shot are good to take in some form (whether through a feat slot, a vestige, a bow enhancement or something else).

Mushroom Ninja
2010-04-25, 09:48 AM
In ages past, I have heard tell of the awe-inspiring power of the woodland archer feat from RoW and of the knowledge devotion feat from CC. Seek ye these and combine them with Rapid Shot. If the tales are true, ye shall have an archer who can set forth a veritable "crap-ton" of damage and who fears not his foe's armor.

Also, tales speak of a tome, almost lost to all during the fall of Gleemax, which was saved in part by a scribe. This tome, though now incomplete, rests in the vaults of the Gameologists. It is said that the tome is a manuel of sorts concerned with the nature of archery. Seek ye this handbook, (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.0) and ye may find more answers to thy questions.

Paulus
2010-04-25, 02:34 PM
Good archer bards usually involve Arcane Archer 2/Sublime Chord and/or a few feats/spells/moneys invested in Inspire Courage.

I have no idea what's going on with those feats, though. Catfolk Pounce only affects one attack per combat and only when you get the jump on the other group. And, unless you have a lot of bonus damage, characters who can benefit from Weapon Finesse tend to have no reason to take Weapon Finesse -- melee with finesse weapons and low strength puts you in the front line, but doesn't help you contribute while there.

Melodic Casting's good, though. And Precise Shot and Rapid Shot are good to take in some form (whether through a feat slot, a vestige, a bow enhancement or something else).

They were just options I threw on paper, remember I though of going TWF line with Two Weapon Rend and that would have been handy with Weapon Fin, and Pounce. But I wanted to Archer instead and I've never built one before. Precise Shot and Rapid Shot, roger, got it.

How does one invest money and feats in Inspire Courage? Thanks!



In ages past, I have heard tell of the awe-inspiring power of the woodland archer feat from RoW and of the knowledge devotion feat from CC. Seek ye these and combine them with Rapid Shot. If the tales are true, ye shall have an archer who can set forth a veritable "crap-ton" of damage and who fears not his foe's armor.

Also, tales speak of a tome, almost lost to all during the fall of Gleemax, which was saved in part by a scribe. This tome, though now incomplete, rests in the vaults of the Gameologists. It is said that the tome is a manuel of sorts concerned with the nature of archery. Seek ye this handbook, (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.0) and ye may find more answers to thy questions.

Okay I had to giggle a little. Not mockingly, but like, barely suppressed Glee. I wish one of my DM's would talk like that sometime. ssssiiiiiggghhh~
Woodland Archer and Knowledge Devotion, Roger. Ooo I'd seen the Bard Handbook but never though there was an Archer one! Thanks!

Eldariel
2010-04-25, 02:56 PM
They were just options I threw on paper, remember I though of going TWF line with Two Weapon Rend and that would have been handy with Weapon Fin, and Pounce. But I wanted to Archer instead and I've never built one before. Precise Shot and Rapid Shot, roger, got it.

How does one invest money and feats in Inspire Courage? Thanks!

Vest of Legend [item, DMGII], Mw. Drum [item, CArc], Song of the Heart [feat, ECS], Words of Creation [feat, BoED] & Inspirational Boost [spell, SC] are all ways to improve Inspire Courage.

As for Sublime Archer, my favorite is:
Star Elf Bard 8/Arcane Archer 2/Sublime Chord 2/Sacred Exorcist 4/Abjurant Champion 4. Sacred Exorcist has Turning which you can use to pick up Divine Might which gives you Cha to damage.

Arcane Archer imbues your impressive spell list on arrows, you have Inspire Courage, Song of Arcane Power and you can use Swift Action to expend spell slot for damage or to hit with Abjurant Champ too (like a ranged Arcane Strike with swift instead of free action). Only prob is, Arcane Archer requires Elf, so your Catfolk doesn't really qualify.


But yeah, listen to Ye Olde Ninja; he has the mastery of the ancient lore and knows the truth he weaves unto his words.

But...yeah. The feat selection given is solid. In addition, few handy metamagic feats like Extend and Persistent Spell suit a Sublime Chord's spell selection fine, as does Quicken Spell (given Rapid Metamagic). Something to think about. Lots of Charisma, Dexterity and Strength, Precise + Rapid Shot, Woodland Archer, et cetera, et cetera. May be worth considering Greatbow since Bards lack natural Longbow proficiency.

If you were going Arcane Archer, Planar Touchstone [PlH] to gain Longbow Prof + Weapon Focus: Longbow with War-domain granted power would of course be optimal (since the class requires WF: Bow), but as that's not the case, Greatbow is better (though saving a feat and going Shortbow, or Bracers of Archery to avoid needing feat for proficiency with a Longer Bow, may be best for you here).

Paulus
2010-04-25, 04:51 PM
Vest of Legend [item, DMGII], Mw. Drum [item, CArc], Song of the Heart [feat, ECS], Words of Creation [feat, BoED] & Inspirational Boost [spell, SC] are all ways to improve Inspire Courage.

~snip

Spending a lot of me cash on your everyday items, but I'll definitely keep those in mind for when I get higher. Can always use more Inspire Courage!

I've slogged through and picked a few feats thanks to everyone's suggestions:

1. MELODIC CASTING
3. EXOTIC WEAPON PROFICIENCY (Greatbow)
6. POINT BLANK SHOT
9. WOODLAND ARCHER
12. PRECISE SHOT
15. IMPROVED PRECISE SHOT

I'm thinking Rapid Shot for level 18...

Also, a question on Melodic Casting by the by, when I need to make concentration checks to keep my Bardic music abilities going, does this feat allow me to make those are perform checks instead? In the feat all it says is that it still requires a standard action to keep concentrating.

If I really wanted to trick this out I'd go Fighter two for the extra feat space and go for Knowledge Devotion with delicious damage and such but as I'm going sub optimal I'll keep it low key so as to keep the character support based with the party. Besides, with this build it's pretty much guaranteed I'll hit whatever I'm shooting at which makes for a pretty decent archer, don't you think?


EDIT: Oh I forgot to mention I'll be trying to get an Elvencraft Greatbow of Force.

Having trouble finding what book "Splitting" is in... oh, Champions of Ruin. Ah. Don't have access to it. heh. Bummer.

Icewraith
2010-04-25, 10:42 PM
Is the greatbow really worth not being able to shoot into melee without penalty untill 12/15?

Mushroom Ninja
2010-04-25, 10:50 PM
Is the greatbow really worth not being able to shoot into melee without penalty untill 12/15?

Woodland archer helps make up for that penalty. Personally, I'd try to get rapid shot earlier than level 18. I'd be tempted to dip a level or two of fighter or PsiWar to get some of those archery feats earlier and free up room for knowledge devotion.

gorfnab
2010-04-26, 12:11 AM
Is the greatbow really worth not being able to shoot into melee without penalty untill 12/15?

The Precise (MIC) weapon enhancement is fairly cheap (+1) and for his build might free up a feat or two, unless he really needs Improved Precise Shot.

Ruinix
2010-04-26, 11:22 AM
woodland archer is useless if u get improv. precise shot from feat or enhance.

and for imp. presice shot i prefer feat, cause the enhance can be dispeled.

Paulus
2010-04-26, 05:59 PM
Is the greatbow really worth not being able to shoot into melee without penalty untill 12/15?

Character starts at level 16.


Woodland archer helps make up for that penalty. Personally, I'd try to get rapid shot earlier than level 18. I'd be tempted to dip a level or two of fighter or PsiWar to get some of those archery feats earlier and free up room for knowledge devotion.

Yeah, I even said so too, if I wanted to trick him out. But he'll be a support character That I'll most likely play with another (four person group including the DM, everyone has two characters) and he'll be just an awesome idea to keep around without being super archer. I'm also thinking Raptor Arrows, and thus can't afford another arrow for another hit, three is fine with me at this level since I have three attacks. I figured I'd rapid shot later when I had the cash to buy another reusable arrow.


The Precise (MIC) weapon enhancement is fairly cheap (+1) and for his build might free up a feat or two, unless he really needs Improved Precise Shot.

woodland archer is useless if u get improv. precise shot from feat or enhance.

and for imp. presice shot i prefer feat, cause the enhance can be dispeled.

It is? I though having all three would allow me to volley, snipe, and generally never miss. So you're saying I should choose between woodland archer and the precise shot line? I'd rather Woodland archer because it allows me to Volley, Snipe, and hit through concealment. Does it negate the need ofr the precise shot line?

Doc Roc
2010-04-26, 06:02 PM
Wait, character STARTS at 16?

Oh god. Okay, how do you feel about sublime chord, because there's really no reason not to take two levels of it, and then some abjurant champion.

Paulus
2010-04-26, 06:18 PM
Wait, character STARTS at 16?

Oh god. Okay, how do you feel about sublime chord, because there's really no reason not to take two levels of it, and then some abjurant champion.

Hey doc!

Really no reason? From my first post:


I'm making an extremely agile Catfolk Bard who relies more on music/bows then he does spells, which means Cha is low and Dex is high. I'm going sub optimized just for the fun and RP potential instead of super tricking him out for spells or combat, so it'll be straight bard. Not a full spell caster, in fact casting is an afterthought, won't be a superb bowman, but I was going for just decent with a bow.

And the post above your own:



Yeah, I even said so too, if I wanted to trick him out. But he'll be a support character That I'll most likely play with another (four person group including the DM, everyone has two characters) and he'll be just an awesome idea to keep around without being super archer.

I know I could do a whole lot more with him, but he's a support character That's more RP potential then combat or otherwise. I already have another character in the game who is pretty bad on my DM's "You can do WHAT?" scale... so instead of increase my silly power exponentially, I was just going to add support. And I've been watching Avatar a bit too much lately... :smallsmile:

Doc Roc
2010-04-26, 06:24 PM
It has been my experience that when you are one level short of The Dying Earth, support means casting. However! In the end, if you feel this is best, then I have to assume you know the group. After all, they're your group, it's your playgroup, it's your GM.

So, with that in mind, I'm going to second the earlier suggestions re: feats, and add my own.


Dragonfire Inspiration:
When the traditional pain-train has to make unexpected stops, we will be there.

Soranar
2010-04-26, 06:51 PM
How about a crossbow?

Because a simple feat (crossbow sniper) gives you half your Dex bonus to damage (+5 damage in your case). Also lets you ignore Str completely.

I would drop weapon finesse and catfolk pounce, you're a support character anyway with only d6 health, you should stay away from melee. Besides, at your level your UMD can make you use wands to grease the floor, web it, or just generally keep nasty people away from you. And you always have other spellcasting options if you go sublime chord.

I usually prefer going the singing optimization route (boosts your own damage and everyone elses on your team so win win situation). Some prestige classes let you have 2 inspirations active at once and dragonfire adept lets you convert those into elemental damage , all of which are fun for everyone, including ranged fighters.

Paulus
2010-04-26, 07:12 PM
It has been my experience that when you are one level short of The Dying Earth, support means casting. However! In the end, if you feel this is best, then I have to assume you know the group. After all, they're your group, it's your playgroup, it's your GM.

So, with that in mind, I'm going to second the earlier suggestions re: feats, and add my own.


Dragonfire Inspiration:
When the traditional pain-train has to make unexpected stops, we will be there.

Well one campaign has a Wizard, Wizard/Ranger, Forsaker/omgwtf/bbq/??!, and I tried to play a favored soul... DM threw a lich/wizard at us and now the forsaker is 'somewhere we have no idea.' So I switched my Favored soul in favor or a Dragonfire Adept since I was useless as a favored soul in an undead heavy campaign against a wizard lich. So yeah, apparently I can't play a healer/full caster very well. So I'm switching to Invocations. ...of course, it WAS my first campaign and my first character, and I started at level 15... but hey, what's done is done. I can learn/remember invocations and breath on things better anyway. No flyby attack though and here is why.

My other campaign (group rotates DM's monthly) I'm a factotum/swashbuckler and my DM is all like "You do WHAT?! How?" and he even disallowed Brains over Brawn to work with initiate. So I know my way around arcane pretty well. Which is why I'm comfortable with a Bard, however, not a full caster bard. Because I've never made an archer before either and would like to try it. Oh, this party btw is made up of a Druid, Uber Charger, and bear warrior barbarian. ...yeah I feel he may start banning other things about my factotum if I start using them too well so I'm looking to bring in a Warlock instead... Invocations are far easier and a "pew pew" each round should satisfy his "WTFO'meter"... of course I'm going glaivelock too, but at least not HELLFIRE. I also have a Warblade/Fighter ready...

My group still works with 3.0 and haven't changed totally to 3.5 yet. So. I can't go overboard, because they aren't. They optimize sometimes, but their definition of optimized is my definition of sub-optimized. So my definition of sub-optimized is just enough to help out, but not outshine anything while at the same time being awesome to RP. because I LOVE Rp. I'd RP all day in night, my characters always use their free action to say things. I've been playing with the group for a year come this august and I think I've learned their lactose tolerance... I certainly don't want to over step it... after all... My factotum only attacks with his hands and blaster spells, he doesn't even have a cloak of resistance, no knowledge devotion nor Itjatsu focus... and the DM called me one of the worst optimizers.

So yes, on this forum when I ask for suggestions and turn down peoples 'no reason not to take this or that' I cringe because I feel like people think I'm an idiot for not going for more optimization when I can. But then I look at my humble little group and I think, I'll find a reason. So while part of me WANTS to go sublime chord for full sorc casting and better bard music applications, the other part of me says "this is enough." and I have trouble explaining my reasons to people who are kind enough to enlighten me with their patience, and feel just terrible when I have to turn down parts of their advice 'for no good reason'. :smallredface:

I do appreciate everyone's help I really do, and I try to remain respectful and courteous to people who take the time to actually try to help me. But how does one turn down that help if it is too much without seeming to throw it back in their face so often they see me as stubborn and not willing to take their help even if offered so therefore there is no point in offering it? I haven't found that balance yet, though I try, lord do I try, most often it is just easier to say "I'm too lazy" to learn or do that stuff. Especially since I hate putting the blame on my group who would turn it down or nerf it because they are too laz no I can't even finish implying it, I love my group and they can do no wrong in my eyes. I'm just happy to play. :smallsmile:

My apologizes to anyone on this forum if I come off the wrong way or handle your help indelicately. I thank you for all your help and advice, even if I can not take it.


How about a crossbow?

Because a simple feat (crossbow sniper) gives you half your Dex bonus to damage (+5 damage in your case). Also lets you ignore Str completely.

I would drop weapon finesse and catfolk pounce, you're a support character anyway with only d6 health, you should stay away from melee. Besides, at your level your UMD can make you use wands to grease the floor, web it, or just generally keep nasty people away from you. And you always have other spellcasting options if you go sublime chord.

I'd thought about it, but wanted to emulate the Na'vi ways of fighting simply because I though it looked cool, hence elevncraft greatbow, raptor arrows (so I only need like three) and most of my spells slots will be used up on healing or grease, glitterdust, and so fourth. Dont' expect to use my spells in combat for more then that at all actually. :smallsmile:

OH, on that note, Dragonfire Inspiration, helps casters become better casters yes? With the groups I have, unless I know for sure I'll be with the first, I'll keep it in mind- but to switch it out with what?- Casting isn't a major issue with the second group and it wouldn't support the melee well, especially since i have a sneaking suspicion I'll be putting this char in that group.

sofawall
2010-04-26, 07:57 PM
You have a +5 Ring of Protection (50k). Why not grab +2 Prot (8k)+2 Nat AC (8k)+1 Insight (5k). Save 29k.

Paulus
2010-04-26, 08:00 PM
You have a +5 Ring of Protection (50k). Why not grab +2 Prot (8k)+2 Nat AC (8k)+1 Insight (5k). Save 29k.

From what books please? If it's not too much trouble.

sofawall
2010-04-26, 08:02 PM
From what books please? If it's not too much trouble.

The Dungeon Master's Guide. Amulet (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/WondrousItems.htm#amuletofNaturalArmor) and Ioun Stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/WondrousItems.htm#iounStones).

Paulus
2010-04-26, 08:06 PM
The Dungeon Master's Guide. Amulet (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/WondrousItems.htm#amuletofNaturalArmor) and Ioun Stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/WondrousItems.htm#iounStones).

Oh, ha ha! I forgot about thus little floaty stones, thanks!

Raging Gene Ray
2010-04-26, 08:23 PM
You mentioned buffing, so here's some more stuff from the Magic Item Compendium:

The Badge of Valor from a set called Regalia of the Hero. Only 1400 gold and it has 3 charges that can be activated as a free action to boost your Inspire Courage up 1. For flavor purposes, you could have it take the form of a tribal talisman or a necklace made from the fang or claw of some legendary beast.

There's also the Dove's Harp. When you use any Bardic Music effect, all allies gain fast healing 3 for 10 rounds. That's nearly unlimited out of combat healing...not sure if it will be useful in combat, though.

You might also consider the Warning enchantment from the MIC for your bow. It's +1 equivalent and gives you a +5 bonus on initiative checks as long as you hold the weapon.

Then there's the Savage Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard) variant from Unearthed Arcana. You get good Fort saves as a bard at the expense of Reflex saves, you get Survival as a class skill, and you trade some of your available Spells Known for Summon Nature's Ally, Reincarnate, and other spells that work well with the Na'vi theme.

Doc Roc
2010-04-26, 08:28 PM
OH, on that note, Dragonfire Inspiration, helps casters become better casters yes? With the groups I have, unless I know for sure I'll be with the first, I'll keep it in mind- but to switch it out with what?- Casting isn't a major issue with the second group and it wouldn't support the melee well, especially since i have a sneaking suspicion I'll be putting this char in that group.

DFI is actually a bard feat from dragon magic. It makes Hurties Hurt Moar, as long as an attack roll was involved. There are guides here and there to using it, I think. Even if you don't optimize your inspire courage, it's still amazing. Effectively, it switches the attack-bonus on Inspire Courage to a +xd6 damage bonus, where x is the attack bonus it would have offered.

So things like Words of Creation, badge of valor, and stuff, very good for it.

Eldariel
2010-04-26, 08:38 PM
DFI is actually a bard feat from dragon magic. It makes Hurties Hurt Moar, as long as an attack roll was involved. There are guides here and there to using it, I think. Even if you don't optimize your inspire courage, it's still amazing. Effectively, it switches the attack-bonus on Inspire Courage to a +xd6 damage bonus, where x is the attack bonus it would have offered.

So things like Words of Creation, badge of valor, and stuff, very good for it.

This is very true and just to add few more interesting points of note: Additionally, it stacks with normal Inspire for a great combination. Also, the bonus damage is energy damage, depending on your Dragon ancestry. And uhh, Dragon Magic contains dragon ancestry variants for common races and then there's the Dragontouched-feat for Dragonblood subtype.

And if it wasn't clear enough, it basically replaces the normal bonuses of Inspire Courage to both, attack and damage, with the +Xd6 energy damage bonus; so Dragonfire Inspiration no longer grants +X to hit and +X to damage, but it does grant the Morale-bonus to saves. If you combine the two, you get +X to hit, +X and +Xd6 energy to damage, and +X to saves. It's easy to see why this is a rather potent ability.


And if you ask how to combine them since you can't maintain two songs at once, it's by utilizing the fact that a song's effects last for 5 rounds (10 with Lingering Song) after you stop singing.

Sophismata
2010-04-26, 10:19 PM
Because of easy access to bonus damage and spells, Bards can make very effective archers. Moreover, they are still excellent support characters due to the nature of bardic music and the variety offered by spellcasting.

That said, a lot of the options available to you would make your DM cringe, so it's up to you to know how much is enough:


Inspire Courage Class Ability
Bonuses to attack and damage for you and your party. All bards get this from level 1. Like most bardic music, has certain requirements and penalties.
Level 1: +1 attack / +1 damage
Level 8: +2 attack / +2 damage
Level 14: +3 attack / +3 damage
level 20: +4 attack / +4 damage


Song of the Heart Feat
Requires Inspire Competence (Obtained at Bard 3), 6 ranks in Perform, Bardic Music
Bonuses granted by some bardic music types increase by +1. This includes Inspire Courage.


Inspirational Boost Spell
Swift Action, Bard 1, Verbal and Somatic components
Used before you Inspire Courage, Inspirational Boost increases the bonuses granted by +1.


Dragonfire Inspiration Feat
You need the Dragonblood subtype, or Draconic Heritage, a Sorcerer feat.
You may trade your attack and damage bonuses when using Inspire Courage for extra damage dice commensurate with the bonus lost.
Eg, a +3 attack / +3 damage Inspire Courage becomes a +3d6 damage bonus on all weapon attacks.
This is fire damage, unless you are a Half-Dragon or a Sorcerer with Draconic Heritage.


Vest of Legends Item
+5 (competence) to Diplomacy and Perform checks, Bard level is 5 higher for the purposes of Inspire Courage.


Badge of Valour Item
Works 3 times per day, amongst other things can increase Inspire Courage benefits by +1.


Bow of Songs Item
Special weapon, +1 Shortbow. Allows you to expend bardic music attempts to get Charisma to attack and damage (next attack only). Updated in the MIC.


There are two nice melee options, Crystal Echoblade and the Harmonising enchantment, but I've skipped those. As a result, you'll need/want the Melodic Casting feat, but you already know about that.

There's an Exlted feat called Words of Creation, but I've ignored it. It doubles your Inspire Courage bonus (it's been argued as base or total bonus).


I have a suspicion that if you combine everything you'll get the evil eye, but you should be able to choose one or two for flavour. A +4d6 or +5d6 to allied damage rolls isn't bad, and while it technically applies to you, as well, we can pretend it doesn't if need be.

If you go straight bard for simplicity, you could be looking at (up to) +7d6 fire damage on attacks, and a further +7 morale to attacks, damage, and saves for you and your party.

If melee, that would be +7d6 + 15 + Charisma damage with a Crystal Echoblade and Slippers of Battledancing.

Paulus
2010-04-26, 11:40 PM
There's also the Dove's Harp. When you use any Bardic Music effect, all allies gain fast healing 3 for 10 rounds. That's nearly unlimited out of combat healing...not sure if it will be useful in combat, though.

Then there's the Savage Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard) variant from Unearthed Arcana. You get good Fort saves as a bard at the expense of Reflex saves, you get Survival as a class skill, and you trade some of your available Spells Known for Summon Nature's Ally, Reincarnate, and other spells that work well with the Na'vi theme.

Nice variant! I'll certainly look into it, a question about the harp though, I'm guess you need perform string for it?



Song of the Heart Feat
Requires Inspire Competence (Obtained at Bard 3), 6 ranks in Perform, Bardic Music
Bonuses granted by some bardic music types increase by +1. This includes Inspire Courage.


Oo what book is this in please?

As for Dragonfire Inspiration, if You need the Dragonblood subtype, or Draconic Heritage, a Sorcerer feat. I'll skip it because it'll take a feat from my bowmenship, plus it doesn't fit flavor fully very well.

But I would certainly look into
Vest of Legends Item
Badge of Valour Item

And strong heart!

But tell me, wha of my bow feats? Should I choose between woodland archer and the precise shot line? I'd rather Woodland archer because it allows me to Volley, Snipe, and hit through concealment, does it negate the need for the precise shot line?

Thanks!

Eldariel
2010-04-26, 11:51 PM
Oo what book is this in please?

Eberron Campaign Settings.


But tell me, wha of my bow feats? Should I choose between woodland archer and the precise shot line? I'd rather Woodland archer because it allows me to Volley, Snipe, and hit through concealment, does it negate the need for the precise shot line?

Thanks!

Precise Shot is the worst of the bunch so I'd first skip it and pick it later when you have a free feat (or just use "Precise" bow instead if you don't can't use Splitting bow, freeing up some enhancement and making Precise Shot less necessary). Rapid Shot is absolute gold and Woodland Archer is quite good. So...about in that order.

It's pretty easy to just aim guys not in melee (or just have allies fight from 10'+ with reach weapons or whatever or 5' step away before you act or any such to avoid it), and cast Glitterdust if you can't and aren't willing to eat up the penalties, making Precise kinda meh.

Doc Roc
2010-04-27, 12:30 AM
Nice variant! I'll certainly look into it, a question about the harp though, I'm guess you need perform string for it?



Oo what book is this in please?

As for Dragonfire Inspiration, if You need the Dragonblood subtype, or Draconic Heritage, a Sorcerer feat. I'll skip it because it'll take a feat from my bowmenship, plus it doesn't fit flavor fully very well.

But I would certainly look into
Vest of Legends Item
Badge of Valour Item

And strong heart!

But tell me, wha of my bow feats? Should I choose between woodland archer and the precise shot line? I'd rather Woodland archer because it allows me to Volley, Snipe, and hit through concealment, does it negate the need for the precise shot line?

Thanks!

Actually, Silverbrow human sends its regards, as a dragonblooded race with a bonus feat. It's pretty great.

Ruinix
2010-04-27, 07:27 AM
It is? I though having all three would allow me to volley, snipe, and generally never miss. So you're saying I should choose between woodland archer and the precise shot line? I'd rather Woodland archer because it allows me to Volley, Snipe, and hit through concealment. Does it negate the need ofr the precise shot line?

1 question.

the game is a solo game? u r the only character on the campaing/table/whatever?

if the aswer is yes, then i say yes snipe is a good way to do damage.

if the answer is no, then i say, on the paper snipe look good, but on table with dice and a few other combatants on the in the mess is a complete ****.

u will expend 2 feats for something u only can use 2 or 3 times in the all campaing.


so again. snipe in a party group is a ****.

Raging Gene Ray
2010-04-27, 03:52 PM
Nice variant! I'll certainly look into it, a question about the harp though, I'm guess you need perform string for it?


Only 3 ranks, the bare minimum to use Bardic Music. You could ask your DM to reflavor it as a drum or flute to fit the tribal theme. Then again, your DM might rule it to be too powerful.

I say it won't be useful in combat because you'll need your hands free to use your bow, and switching from an instrument to a weapon can consume your turns unless you have Quick Draw.

Also, who else will be in the party? The usefulness of buffing with Inspire Courage goes up for every warrior-type in the party. If everyone else is going to be casting spells, it would be best to focus on archery instead of splitting your efforts between archery and buffing.

Paulus
2010-04-28, 03:16 PM
1 question.

the game is a solo game? u r the only character on the campaing/table/whatever?

if the aswer is yes, then i say yes snipe is a good way to do damage.

if the answer is no, then i say, on the paper snipe look good, but on table with dice and a few other combatants on the in the mess is a complete ****.

u will expend 2 feats for something u only can use 2 or 3 times in the all campaing.


so again. snipe in a party group is a ****.

It will definitely be a group. So snipe isn't very effective... but... does that work in favor or against the Precise shot line? You said expends two feats, so I'm guessing you mean the Precise shot line as woodland archer is only one feat. But I would thin you were talking about Woodland Archer because it helps you snipe far more then the Precise shot line. So which do you refer too?


Only 3 ranks, the bare minimum to use Bardic Music. You could ask your DM to reflavor it as a drum or flute to fit the tribal theme. Then again, your DM might rule it to be too powerful.

I say it won't be useful in combat because you'll need your hands free to use your bow, and switching from an instrument to a weapon can consume your turns unless you have Quick Draw.

Also, who else will be in the party? The usefulness of buffing with Inspire Courage goes up for every warrior-type in the party. If everyone else is going to be casting spells, it would be best to focus on archery instead of splitting your efforts between archery and buffing.

Well there are two possibilities, but the most likely one is Bear Warrior, Uber Charger, Druid, Warlock, and my Factotum which is pretty much both. The other party is now, Wizard, Wizard/ranger, A warrior of some type, and me the Dragonfire Adept. The other players have character they haven't decided on, so it could go either way... but like I said it is far more likely I'll be using the bard in the 2 warrior 2 caster campaign.