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View Full Version : [3.5] Resisting Heal Spell?



SgtLion
2010-04-25, 04:20 AM
I'm a human lich 17 Wiz/1 Rog. There's a recurring enemy in the campaign I'm playing, an evil cleric who has this most effective spell called "Mass Heal" (and heal, but that takes a touch attack also), dealing 10 points of damage per caster level. I only have 115 hp, if I don't save against her using heal, I take about 190 damage, insta-destruction.

Sure, destruction isn't much when you're a lich, but I don't like being helpless to a cleric that can blast me into smithereens with one spell. I can use any splatbooks, but I need a way to counter this, I only just levelled to 18, so I got levelling feat and skills 'n such. And can retrain a couple feats and even swap the rogue class out for another.

My will save is +17, but I have a nice knack for rolling low. Plus the cleric's DC is ~30.

I'm failing to find some way to stop insta-destruction when I meet this cleric. Ideas?

WildPyre
2010-04-25, 04:28 AM
Well it does offer a will save to negate. As a caster will should be your good save. To make extra sure you might want to find items or spells to bump up your will save.

If you can git initiative you can silence her spell... depending on your casting class you might be able to find some way to counter the spell. (can you counterspell a divine spell with arcane magic? I don't have my book handy.)

Ashram
2010-04-25, 04:29 AM
Unless you're taking the rogue level for fluff, dump it and take more wizard levels.

Greater Spell Immunity might help against Heal (Won't help if he busts out a Mass Heal), if you don't want to go the old-fashioned route and just inflate your Will save to only take half damage. I'm sure someone more versed in minmaxing can help you in this case.

Also, out of curiosity, why is an EVIL cleric persuing a lich AND using Heal spells? >.>

SgtLion
2010-04-25, 04:31 AM
Well it does offer a will save to negate. As a caster will should be your good save. To make extra sure you might want to find items or spells to bump up your will save.
I forgot to mention will saves (put in main post now.). But bumping up my will save might be quite effective..


Unless you're taking the rogue level for fluff, dump it and take more wizard levels.
Yeah, I'm trying to convince the DM to let me do that.


Also, out of curiosity, why is an EVIL cleric persuing a lich AND using Heal spells?
Basically, I pissed a lot of people off. And using heal spells to kill a certain Lich, obviously?

Krazddndfreek
2010-04-25, 04:32 AM
Improved Counterspell?

EDIT: Also, why haven't you taken any PrCs? Loremaster or Archmage are pretty generic but useful choices. That would also put your will save 2 higher.

Runestar
2010-04-25, 04:36 AM
Ring of positive protection - MIC. 36000gp. Immunity to spells which channel positive energy. :smallbiggrin:

herbe
2010-04-25, 04:36 AM
Wish for Mettle then Improved Mettle: It add save against it for halved the damage and if you are a wizard you have to have counterspell or improved counterspell

Or from Runestar idea wish immunity to positive energy or at least reistance to it.
Im working on wish which grant something like these link in the signature.

nyjastul69
2010-04-25, 04:41 AM
Just to be clear: your ECL is 22? 17 levels of Wizard, 1 level of Rogue, and +4 for the Lich template. Where is your phylactery and what is it? Unless the Cleric gets to that and destroys it you'll always get another shot at him. Do you happen to know if he's epic or not?

Mastikator
2010-04-25, 04:42 AM
Heal and harm can not reduce you to 0.

SgtLion
2010-04-25, 04:46 AM
Just to be clear: your ECL is 22? 17 levels of Wizard, 1 level of Rogue, and +4 for the Lich template. Where is your phylactery and what is it? Unless the Cleric gets to that and destroys it you'll always get another shot at him. Do you happen to know if he's epic or not?

The cleric isn't Epic, they're level 18/19. The cleric isn't even after my phylactery, they just enjoy destroying me endlessly. The cleric will most definitely get revived if she dies, though.
And yes, my ECL is 22.

Counterspelling isn't an option, because, at the start of this campaign, my introduction to 3.5e as a whole, I specialised in Illusion and prohibited Abj and Conj. Silly me.


Ring of positive protection
Great idea, but I'm somewhat lacking in money, and in great debt for the whole.. make a phylactery thing.


why haven't you taken any PrCs? I'm often dissuaded from prestige classes these days because I'm so close to epic wizard. If I can change my rogue, I probably will take a PrC.


Heal and Harm can not reduce you to 0.
-Snip- Yeah, in 3.5, that's only on a save.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-25, 04:48 AM
Ring of positive protection - MIC. 36000gp. Immunity to spells which channel positive energy. :smallbiggrin:

This. Probably the single easiest method to incorporate.


Heal and harm can not reduce you to 0.

You're thinking of 3.0. That was changed in 3.5.


If the creature successfully saves, harm deals half this amount, but it cannot reduce the target’s hit points to less than 1.
That's only on a successful save. On a failed save, it can kill.

Runestar
2010-04-25, 04:52 AM
Great idea, but I'm somewhat lacking in money, and in great debt for the whole.. make a phylactery thing.

Then find some way of getting the money, even if you have to pawn off your existing eq. That ring will seriously solve all your woes. :smallcool:

Krazddndfreek
2010-04-25, 04:54 AM
I'm often dissuaded from prestige classes these days because I'm so close to epic wizard. If I can change my rogue, I probably will take a PrC.

I... I don't understand. :smallconfused:

TheMadLinguist
2010-04-25, 04:55 AM
Add the spellblade enhancement (PGtF) for massheal to whatever weapon you're using.

As a plus, the next time he tries to massheal you you can pass it onto a living flunkie.

Also, epic wizard just... isn't that good.

Ashram
2010-04-25, 04:55 AM
Only Harm can't reduce you to 0 HP. (My DM and I joke that it's because the spell is called "Harm", not "Kill". :P)

I would say try Wishing for the ring, but I highly doubt your DM is just going to hand you an item capable of thwarting his "speshul" cleric. And if you're sure the cleric will be raised if you kill her, if you can get the money for the focus, I suggest taking a page out of Xykon's book and Soul Binding that sucker. I mean, come on, you're evil! =D

Nidogg
2010-04-25, 04:55 AM
Scry on him, learn some facts. Then He gets a -4 to his inprisonment save. Pile more on so He cant get his magic off. Also look for Ray of antimagic in the spell compendium.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-25, 04:56 AM
The cleric isn't Epic, they're level 18/19. The cleric isn't even after my phylactery, they just enjoy destroying me endlessly. The cleric will most definitely get revived if she dies, though.
And yes, my ECL is 22.

There are ways to stop that Res. Try Trap the Soul. (20k gem required, but with proper inscribing, there's no save, no SR)

Once you get their soul trapped? It's a matter of bartering it to a devil for fun and profit. I support trading it for a Ring of Positive Protection.

In other words? That cleric's not playing for keeps. Don't make his mistake.

nyjastul69
2010-04-25, 05:01 AM
Yeah, please ignore what I said in my previous post as all ninjy stuff killed my slow typing ded.

SgtLion
2010-04-25, 05:12 AM
All these ideas and helping tips have been amazing helpful, more than I could even expect.
Thanks a ton, I'll work on that positive energy ring and may get round to perma-killing that cleric :smallwink:

nyjastul69
2010-04-25, 05:34 AM
This. Probably the single easiest method to incorporate.



You're thinking of 3.0. That was changed in 3.5.


That's only on a successful save. On a failed save, it can kill.

In 3.0 it was no save, go to 1d4. Does the' it' in the v3.5 mean the spell or the save can't bring one below 1 hp? The way the sentence is constructed it says a failed save can kill a character, I don't think that's the intent. It seems to me to be another case of poor sentence structure. The 'it' seems to refer to the spell, not a failed save.

KillianHawkeye
2010-04-25, 05:45 AM
In 3.0 it was no save, go to 1d4. Does the' it' in the v3.5 mean the spell or the save can't bring one below 1 hp? The way the sentence is constructed it says a failed save can kill a character, I don't think that's the intent. It seems to me to be another case of poor sentence structure. The 'it' seems to refer to the spell, not a failed save.

In 3.5 it's N damage, save for half, and if you save you can't go below 1 hp.

nyjastul69
2010-04-25, 06:20 AM
In 3.5 it's N damage, save for half, and if you save you can't go below 1 hp.

As I read it for yet another time, it, the spell, cannot bring one to less than 1 hp.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-25, 06:35 AM
As I read it for yet another time, it, the spell, cannot bring one to less than 1 hp.

That text is nested with the "iff you pass the save" text.

It cannot bring you below 1 hp if you pass the save.

If you fail the save, that text does not apply.

KillianHawkeye
2010-04-25, 06:38 AM
Yeah, not only do you need to pay attention to the commas, but the periods, too. :smallwink:

Reading comprehension FTW!



EDIT:

If the creature successfully saves, harm deals half this amount, but it cannot reduce the target’s hit points to less than 1.

The correct way to parse this sentence =

"If the creature successfully saves: (harm deals half this amount, but it cannot reduce the target's hit points to less than 1)."

molten_dragon
2010-04-25, 06:39 AM
Another easy method of giving yourself some more protection from this guy is to get some spell resistance.

Shalist
2010-04-25, 07:17 AM
There's a level 4 clerical spell that ring is based off of, dunno if that could help you at all...LIFE WARD (SC 131)
Abjuration
Level: Cleric 4
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 minute/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
...With a brush of your hand you surround the creature in crawling shadows, a cloak of negative energy that whirls and swims across the creature’s body.
...A creature warded by this spell gains protection from the effects of positive energy, including magical healing. The spell can be cast upon undead to offer additional protection against the turning abilities of clerics. The subject is immune to all positive energy effects, including conjuration (healing) spells, channeled positive energy such as from the turn undead ability, or other effects that derive their power from positive energy.
...This spell offers protection from the blinding effect of the Positive Energy Plane, and warded creatures gain no temporary hit points while there.

And another that could throw him for a loop (again, clerical, though)

SPARK OF LIFE (SC 196)
Necromancy
Level: Cleric 3, druid 4
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Undead creature touched
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
A touch from your hand outlines an undead creature in a faint yellow glow, making it vulnerable to many of the dangers that can harm living creatures.
..For the duration of the spell, the undead creature is subject to extra damage from critical hits (and thus sneak attacks), nonlethal damage, ability drain, energy drain, fatigue, exhaustion, and damage to its physical ability scores (though it still lacks a Constitution score and thus can’t take Constitution damage) as if it were alive.
..It loses its immunity to effects that require a Fortitude save, as well as its invulnerability to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects. However, an undead affected by this spell gains a bonus on its Fortitude saves equal to its Charisma bonus (if any). (The bonus doesn’t apply to Fortitude saves against effects that also affect objects.) It must breathe, eat, and sleep just like a normal living creature (though the last two aren’t likely to come into play thanks to the spell’s short duration).
..While it is under the effect of this spell, both negative energy (such as inflict spells) and positive energy (such as cure spells) heal damage to the undead creature, rather than damaging it.
..An undead creature affected by this spell retains all of its other traits.

Have you considered one of those friendship rings (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#friendShield) that use 'shield other'? They're pretty cheap, and that'd drop the damage down to 95 points max right away, which could work with a some temp HPs. You could even try to argue that it actually heals the other ring's wearer, but I wouldn't buy that :P

There's a PHBII item, 'Dazzix's vest', that gives +5 to your SR for $25,000

'Heart of Stone' (SC 111, 5000g 500 xp though) last a year, and forces a CL check (vs. 10 + your CL) for anyone trying to heal you.

'Anti-magic ray,' $$y, but you shut down his casting if he fails a will save. (drag 109)

Depending on how you interpret "spells that heal damage do not work on that individual." ('target' line says "living creature," descriptive text says you can use it on undead :P ) :

GRAYMANTLE
Necromancy
Level: Sorcerer/wizard 5
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One living creature
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
You create a cloud of sickly gray energy that streaks toward a living creature, wrapping it in the foul essence of unlife.
..A skull-shaped cloud of gray energy strikes your target. The gray radiance is transferred to the creature, covering it entirely. For the duration of the spell, a living subject cannot regain hit points or ability score points by any means (undead creatures can still gain hit points), nor can the creature remove negative levels. Regeneration or fast healing abilities the subject has from any source are suppressed for the duration of the spell.
..Spells that heal damage do not work on that individual. The subject can improve its current hit points by boosting its Constitution score and can receive temporary hit points (from an aid spell, for example).
..When the spell ends, automatic healing abilities, such as a troll’s regeneration, and items that restore hit points, such as a ring of regeneration, begin to function again.
This one requires a "caster level check of 15 + your CL"

Ebon Ray of Doom (Lost Empires of Faerun pg 31)
Necromancy
Level: asn 3, sor/wiz 4
components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close
Duration: 1 round/lvl
Saving throw: fortitude partial
SR: yes
You fire a black energy that drastically slows down the rate at which the subject can recover hit points. Any creature attempting to restore hit poitns to the subject by means of any sort of healing magic must succeed on a caster level check (DC 15 + your CL), or the healing effect fails. A subject with fast healing or regeneration must make a fortitude save each round, or the ability does not function that round.

Either dispelling screen or dispelling wall (can't remember which) would block his LoE, so he couldn't target you.

And my last stab at this for the night...a spell that blocks entire schools of magic. Generally not to great, but if you know that someone's going to be using, say, healing (conjuration) spells...

OTILUKE'S SUPPRESSING FIELD (Comp Mag 112)
Abjuration
Level: Sorcerer/wizard 4
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 full round
Range: 20 ft.
Area: 20-ft.-radius emanation,
centered on you
Duration: 10 minutes/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
Your skin tingles as you radiate a field of powerful magic.
..When you cast this spell, designate either a school of magic or a subtype of magic (such as evil spells or fire spells). Spells of that type are suppressed within the area of your spell. Anyone attempting to cast such a spell in (or into) the area must succeed on a caster level check against a DC of 11 + your caster level. (Abilities and feats that improve the ability to defeat spell resistance, such as Spell Penetration, apply here as well.) ..Anyone attempting to activate an item that produces a spell or effect of that type must make a similar roll, using the item's caster level for the level check. Constant items or precast effects make this check when first exposed to your suppressing field. If they succeed, they remain unaffected for the duration. If they fail, they are suppressed for the duration, resuming function (if their duration has not expired) when they leave the area.

Failing all of this...have you considered just using disguises of some sort (mundane or magical) so he casts it on the wrong person?

edit:

-'Positive Energy Resistance' feat for 10 resistance (LM pg 29)
-Necrotic Reserve lets you drop below 0 HP 1/day (LM pg 31), though you're staggered until you zap yourself with some "healing."

edit 2:

Any chance you could reanimate the cleric as an undead flunky? That'd certainly keep him from being raised, and it'd get you a cool undead cleric pet.

Alternately, just disable him, and throw him into a 'bag of devouring,' if you can scrounge one up.

Flob
2010-04-25, 08:02 AM
It's a little weak, but in Libris Mortis, theres a feat called "Positive Energy Resistance".

Prerequisite- Undead type. Benefit: You gain resistance 10 against positive energy effects, such as cure spells.

Thats all I got for you.

Ggrrrr... I should have read the post above me.

KillianHawkeye
2010-04-25, 08:20 AM
I guess you could always hit yourself with an enervation, or energy drain if you have it, to gain some temporary hps whenever you see this guy coming.

Illusion spec'd, you say? If you take your 18th level in Wizard, you could contingency a shadow walk on yourself set to go off whenever you're targetted (or hit by, depending on your DM) a healing spell. He shouldn't be able to reach you there.

Or else just win initiative and greater shadow conjuration yourself a teleport spell. You have greater shadow conjuration, right?? If not, get it. That's the only respectable way to specialize in Illusion and ban Conjuration.

Or Illusion up a disguise and back it up with a misdirection spell to fool his Divinations. If he doesn't know it's you, he won't try to heal you to death.

And those are all just what I can see in the SRD. You're an Illusionist. You gotta start getting creative. :smallwink:

Gorbash
2010-04-25, 08:28 AM
I'm a human lich 17 Wiz/1 Rog. There's a recurring enemy in the campaign I'm playing, an evil cleric who has this most effective spell called "Mass Heal" (and heal, but that takes a touch attack also), dealing 10 points of damage per caster level. I only have 115 hp, if I don't save against her using heal, I take about 190 damage, insta-destruction.

You're a wizard. Celerity -> Time Stop -> Force Cage -> Cloudkill -> Solid Fog -> Stinking Cloud...

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-25, 08:40 AM
You're a wizard. Celerity -> Time Stop -> Force Cage -> Cloudkill -> Solid Fog -> Stinking Cloud...

Poor choice of spells vs a Cleric 19. You're better off countercasting.

Cleric: I cast Mass Heal.
Lich: Ready action triggered: Cast Rod Empowered Polar Ray. (19d6) x 1.5 damage. Concentration check DC (10+damage dealt) or lose the Heal spell.
Cleric: Oh, Poo.

Vizzerdrix
2010-04-25, 08:48 AM
Ooh! Kill him with a cantrip!

Launch Bolt+ Reach Spell+Chain Spell+ Arcane Thesis: Launch Bolt= CL+1 bolts fired. Make those Splitting, collision alchemist's bolts for CLx2+1 bolts at 1d6 fire +1d6+6 damage

Applying more 0 cost metamagics can bring this down to a 1st level spell

nargbop
2010-04-25, 09:01 AM
Straight Wizard? Epic wizard doesn't gain epic feats very fast, and PrC class abilities can be stronger than most epic feats ( Improved Metamagic from Incantrix , or Advanced Learning from Recaster , or Telepathy from Mindbender ) ... Ah, well, lessons for the next campaign.
===
Solutions to your immediate problem :
1 ) Ring of Positive Energy Protection. Cheap, effective.
2 ) Greater Spell Immunity. Pick CL/4 spells, such as Heal, Cure Critical Wounds, Cure Serious Wounds, and Sunburst. For 10 minutes per level, you are immune to those specific positive energy spells.

Lysander
2010-04-25, 09:16 AM
Unless you've barred evocation, have a contingent spell set to go off when someone starts casting a Heal spell at you. Teleport away, throw up an antimagic field, grant yourself temporary hit points through necromancy, lots of options here.

A blink spell should also give that Mass Heal spell a 50% chance of failing to affect you at all. If you have warning that he's coming cast it before the battle and you'll have 17 rounds of protection. Or buy a ring of blinking and have the spell active all day.

DanReiv
2010-04-25, 10:41 AM
Lifeward, lvl 4 cleric spell.

Since you're rogue and HL I take you can easily UMD this. Get a couple high CL scrolls for that priest so he can't quicken dispell magic/heal. Forced to pull out a greater dispell which probably means no heal the same round.

Get a wand for lesser encounter and you're done.

If not surely someone in your party can cast it for/on you ?

Also I agree since he's messing with you, you should be messing with him. Soul bind him, put the gem in a bag of holding, put the bag in a steel chest. Teleport to the bottom of the ocean, cast permanent invisibility on the chest, permanent Mage’s Private Sanctum near it.

Then teleport back in front of a temple of its divinity, proceed with a /rudegesture.

nyjastul69
2010-04-25, 11:17 AM
That text is nested with the "iff you pass the save" text.

It cannot bring you below 1 hp if you pass the save.

If you fail the save, that text does not apply.

I know what the text days. I don't think that's the intent. I know divining author intent is a slippery slope. I simply don't think the spell was intended to mean, what it actually says. It's not the first time WotC has worded something this poorly. The only thing that will change my mind is a quote from Andy Collins himself.

sofawall
2010-04-25, 11:24 AM
By RAW, the spell does what PR said. If you want to change it, or Andy Collins wants to change it, or Bob Loblaw wants to change it, that is fine and acceptable. The spell as written in the rulebook, however, does not do what you say it does. Those are rules.

Also, if the only thing you will accept is a quote from Andy Collins, why bother arguing in the first place? It's like saying "You're wrong, nyah nyah nyah I can't hear you!"

KillianHawkeye
2010-04-25, 11:48 AM
I know what the text days. I don't think that's the intent. I know divining author intent is a slippery slope. I simply don't think the spell was intended to mean, what it actually says. It's not the first time WotC has worded something this poorly. The only thing that will change my mind is a quote from Andy Collins himself.

Oh, I thought you were just reading it and coming to a different conclusion than the rest of us. At least, that's how it seemed from your prior posts. Thanks for clarifying.