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View Full Version : [3.5] Sleight of Hand change



Myou
2010-04-25, 06:33 AM
Making multiple Sleight of Hand checks seems silly to me, as does the complete inability of your target to stop you - if your check is high enough you win by default. So I've written something of a fix. How is it? Balanced?

When using the Sleight of Hand skill to take an item from another creature the process now functions as follows:

To take an item from another creature you must first make a Sleight of Hand check against the check DC of the chosen item. The opponent then makes a Spot check to detect the attempt, opposed by the Sleight of Hand check result you achieved. If they detect the attempt they may make either make a Reflex save to prevent you from taking the item, or a Sleight of Hand check to try to counter your attempt. Should they choose to make a Reflex save the DC is equal to your Sleight of Hand check result divided by two. Should they choose to make a Sleight of Hand check, they can prevent the theft by matching or beating your check result, and should they beat your check result by ten or more, they may counter your attempt, initiating a Sleight of Hand check as a free action to attempt to steal from you instead.

Should they fail the Reflex save, fail the Sleight of Hand check, or fail to notice the attempt at all, you gain the item. An opponent who succeeds on their Spot check notices the attempt, regardless of whether you got the item. You may attempt to take more than one item at once, by taking a -4 penalty on your check for each additional item, with the DC determined by the most difficult item to take of those you target. When you attempt to take multiple items, should the attempt be detected, the creature makes Spot checks and Reflex saves or Sleight of Hand checks separately for each item.

This use of the Sleight of Hand skill is always a swift action, except when used to counter an attempt.

DC to take item;
DC 20 - unsecure items, such as those held in an open pocket, or a hat.
DC 30 - items held relatively securely, such as items in a buttoned pocket or pocket with a tight lip.
DC 40 - items firmly attached, such as by a leather strap, a string or a buckle, like a cloak, belt or watch.
DC 80 - items very firmly attached, such as an item on a chain or a helmet.

Items that cannot be removed without the co-operation of the target, such as a shirt or a held item, cannot be taken with the Sleight of Hand skill.

Curmudgeon
2010-04-25, 06:44 AM
There's some inconsistent logic going here. You've got to succeed on a Spot check to notice the attempt in order to enable the Reflex save, but then you say that if they make the Reflex save they notice the attempt.

You might want to map out what you're trying to accomplish with a state diagram.

Myou
2010-04-25, 07:22 AM
There's some inconsistent logic going here. You've got to succeed on a Spot check to notice the attempt in order to enable the Reflex save, but then you say that if they make the Reflex save they notice the attempt.

You might want to map out what you're trying to accomplish with a state diagram.

Er, it doesn't say that at all. :smallconfused:
What bit are you looking at?

1. Make the Sleight of Hand check
2. They make a Spot check
2a. If they succeed on the Spot check they make a Reflex save
3 If they fail the Spot check or Reflex save you get the item.

Kol Korran
2010-04-25, 07:47 AM
i see no real problem here, however i would suggest to alter the DC to various situational modifiers:
- if you try to lift an item touching the skin such as a ring/ headband the slight of hand DC should be higher.
- if there are many onlookers (in a crowd), there might be a sort of collective spot check, perhaps a +2 per another looker?
- if the target has taken special precautions (safety strings?) it should increase Sleight DC. if it is paranoid or weary for some reason, perhaps a spot bonus.

only other point i have to make is that you didn't define the DC of the reflex check.

Myou
2010-04-25, 08:00 AM
i see no real problem here, however i would suggest to alter the DC to various situational modifiers:
- if you try to lift an item touching the skin such as a ring/ headband the slight of hand DC should be higher.
- if there are many onlookers (in a crowd), there might be a sort of collective spot check, perhaps a +2 per another looker?
- if the target has taken special precautions (safety strings?) it should increase Sleight DC. if it is paranoid or weary for some reason, perhaps a spot bonus.

only other point i have to make is that you didn't define the DC of the reflex check.

Thanks!

I actually did define it ("The DC of the Reflex save is equal to your Sleight of Hand check result."), but maybe it needs to be mentioned sooner instead of a later line.

I like your ideas, although I don't want things to get too complicated.
I don't think you can steal worn items at all, can you? I think they should be exempt by nature if they aren't already.

Curmudgeon
2010-04-25, 08:43 AM
I don't think you can steal worn items at all, can you? I think they should be exempt by nature if they aren't already.
How firmly something is attached just changes the DC to snatch it. For instance, a sheathed weapon requires DC 50 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#sleightOfHand) to lift.

Myou
2010-04-25, 09:10 AM
How firmly something is attached just changes the DC to snatch it. For instance, a sheathed weapon requires DC 50 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#sleightOfHand) to lift.

Well, yeah, but it's physically not possible to take a guy's clothes while he's wearing them. I thought I saw something somewhere saying you can't take thigs like armour or clothes.

Curmudgeon
2010-04-25, 11:55 AM
Well, yeah, but it's physically not possible to take a guy's clothes while he's wearing them.
Of course it is. A cloak fastened with a string comes off with one tug of the slip knot. It's exactly the same work to remove an unbuttoned vest as it is to take off a backpack. If teenagers can (as a prank) pants a walking person so they step entirely out of their trousers, think what a trained Rogue can do with Sleight of Hand.

It's all possible; it's merely a matter of setting the DC.

Myou
2010-04-25, 12:16 PM
Of course it is. A cloak fastened with a string comes off with one tug of the slip knot. It's exactly the same work to remove an unbuttoned vest as it is to take off a backpack. If teenagers can (as a prank) pants a walking person so they step entirely out of their trousers, think what a trained Rogue can do with Sleight of Hand.

It's all possible; it's merely a matter of setting the DC.

Some items are literally impossible without having to at least grapple with the target, such as a t-shirt. You physically cannot remove a shirt without forcing the target into a certain posture, not unless you rip the shirt. And the pants works only when the target is walking while you're acting.

I'm not sure how the DC should change for items the target is wearing, or even how to define them, since all the items you carry are technically being worn. :smallsigh:

Plus now I'm worried that the reflex ave is impossibly high, since generally speaking skill check results are about twice the result of saving throws. ><

2xMachina
2010-04-25, 12:59 PM
Maybe a:

Hands up! Robbery!

Then, SoH their shirt off, and walk away, leaving them to wonder what you took.

EDIT: Of course, having the shirt go over their eyes make it hard.

Mongoose87
2010-04-25, 01:01 PM
Maybe a:

Hands up! Robbery!

Then, SoH their shirt off, and walk away, leaving them to wonder what you took.

EDIT: Of course, having the shirt go over their eyes make it hard.

You just pull it really fast. Or blindfold them, first.

Glimbur
2010-04-25, 01:12 PM
Something that makes sense but might not be mechanically sound is opposing Sleight of Hand with Sleight of Hand. A successful defense prevents the item from being stolen. A failed defense means they get the item, fail by 5 or more and you don't notice that they succeeded. Apply modifiers to the defense based on the flat DC of stealing various things; it's easier to prevent someone from taking a ring from you than taking your coin purse.

How common is the trope of a master thief being targeted by pick-pockets but getting the best of them? Very. I'm too lazy to find the OoTS comic that illustrates this, but I know we saw one recently.

This change would fix the problem of it being trivial to steal a bunch of magic gear from people with few real defenses (sovereign glue your rings and amulet on?) but makes life harder for everyone that doesn't have sleight of hand but does have spot (druids are who I'm thinking about, mostly.) It also makes another tricky skill opposed by itself like Forgery is, which may or may not be a good thing.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-04-25, 02:03 PM
I'd say go with what Glimbur said, but still retain the option to have Spot oppose Sleight of Hand, perhaps giving one skill or the other a slight bonus to it.

The reflex save seems odd, but it does make sense. Given someone who goes all out, it may not matter, but that's more a problem with item familiars than with your proposed fix.

ka_bna
2010-04-25, 02:08 PM
How common is the trope of a master thief being targeted by pick-pockets but getting the best of them? Very. I'm too lazy to find the OoTS comic that illustrates this, but I know we saw one recently.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0673.html I guess.

Myou
2010-04-25, 02:11 PM
Interesting ideas, Glimbur. But maknig it Sleight of Hand is problematic, because most characters won't be trained in it, as you say.

Perhaps a spot check allows you to negate the theft. The problem there is that just eeing does't mean you can actually avoid it, but a reflex save is almost sure to fail anyway.

*Ponders.*

Unless the save DC was half the check result?
And you get the option to make a SoH check instead if you want! :D

*Thinks about the numbers.*

Yeah, that sounds like it would work. At level 20 the thief could have a max modifier of 24 (ranks) + 10 (item, that's the max allowed in my games before epic) + 20 (the max dexterity modifier you can get at level 20 in my games) + 10 (average roll) = 64
So the DC = 32

You could pretty easily make a DC 32 or so reflex save since you have 12 (good reflex) + 6 (maximum item bonus to saves at that level) + 5 (dex score of 20, the least you'd want to have at that level) + 10 (average roll) = 33

So a class with a good reflex save played by a character with good dexterity, hould be able to prevet the theft on a decent roll, no? :smallsmile:

And alternatively you can make an opposed Sleight of Hand check. If you beat the attacker's check you stop the attempt, and if you beat it by 10 or more you can choose to make your own attempt to steal from the attacker as a free action.
Of course that does lead to the possibility of you both making several attempts due to unlikely rolls, (you beat his check, but then he beats yours, then you beat his, etc) but it should resolve itself pretty easily even if it doe happen, and the poibility of your counter itself being countered adds a threat, so if you got lucky in beating the attacker's check, you wouldn't want to push it by trying to steal from him in return.


So, unless anyone objects to that, I think the other problem is the security of items.
Perhaps the base DC is 20 for unsecure items, such as those held in an open pocket, or a hat.
Then DC 30 for items held relatively securely, like items in a buttoned pocket or pocket with a tight lip.
DC 40 for items firmly attached by a strap, string or buckle, like a cloak or belt or watch.
DC 80 for items very firmly attached, such as an item on a chain or a piece of armour like a helmet.

And items that cannot be removed without the co-operation of the target, such as a shirt or a held item, cannot be targeted with the skill at all.

How do those DCs look? I'm not entirely happy with them.

Myou
2010-04-26, 06:18 AM
Well, I've updated the first post. It's a lot more complicated than I wanted it to be, but I do think it gives flexability to the system, and allows a reasonable chance for dextrous and quick targets to resist you - without making the skill useless, since it's easier to do, but far harder to abuse.

What do you guys think?

I'm rather looking forward to using Sleight of Hand in game with my Factotum. :smallsmile: