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View Full Version : slew of polymorph questions: 3.5



graeylin
2010-04-25, 06:28 PM
1) how do i know which of the features for each humanoid type are "extraordinary special qualities". For example, WOTC implies that low light vision and darkvision are "extraordinary special qualities", and thus, if i poly into a creature with darkvision (only), i would lose my low light vision and not get darkvision. Where do i find ESQ's in my PH?

2) It seems skill sets and points do transfer between poly's.. so if i polymorph into a human, do i get additional skill points each level?

3) What about the human bonus feat? If i am human, and polymorph into something else, do i lose that? Or keep it? and if i am another creature and poly into human, do i gain a bonus feat?

4) when you poly into a humanoid, you gain the strength, con, and dex of the type... is that the average S/C/D for the type? Or can i choose to poly into a very strong, dexterous and healthy human, for example, and gain higher scores?

jindra34
2010-04-25, 06:37 PM
1. Look at the tags, (Ex) is for extraordinary, no tag is for natural. No other tags matter for polymorph.
2.Nope, Polymorph lasts to short. If you stayed polymorphed for long enough to gain a level without it lapsing it might be argueable to get that bonus for that level.
3.Feats are unchanged.
4. Average. MIght be slightly more balanced if you did like lycan's do while dropping current racial adjusts.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-25, 06:55 PM
1. Look at the tags, (Ex) is for extraordinary, no tag is for natural. No other tags matter for polymorph.(Su) can matter, if you have the Assume Supernatural Ability (from Savage Species) or Metamorphic Transfer (from the Expanded Psionics Handbook) feats. They allow you to use Supernatural abilities of the forms you take (ASA allows one ability of one form, and is limited only by how many times the form can use it, and MT is 1 (Su) of any given form 3/day; I prefer the latter).


2.Nope, Polymorph lasts to short. If you stayed polymorphed for long enough to gain a level without it lapsing it might be argueable to get that bonus for that level.Well, you do gain racial skill bonuses; I'd go with the above interpretation to keep things from going out of hand. Of course, if you suddenly become NOT human you lose those skill points.


3.Feats are unchanged.Humans gain a racial bonus feat (it can be literally anything you qualify for at 1st level), and polymorph grants racial bonus feats. However, you shouldn't be able to use that feat for qualifying for anything (like PrCs), since it's extremely transitory.


4. Average. MIght be slightly more balanced if you did like lycan's do while dropping current racial adjusts.Has to be average, as noted. However, you might very well be able to turn into higher HD versions of various creatures, similar to what you would do with dragons or hydras; check with your DM.

As for "did like Lycan's do," I revamped all of the psionic powers in the XPH to give psionics new options, and I did my best to close up loopholes, bolster terribad powers, and tone down uber awesome ones. One of the things I did was change metamorphosis (the -even better- psionic version of polymorph) to 1st level, then altered it so that it merely changed your appearance, but gave you some menu abilities from a limited list; augmenting the power with more power points (the psionic equivalent of casting a spell using Heighten Spell with higher spell slots) gave you more and stronger abilities from the list.

You can see what I'm talking about if you download it here (http://www.sendspace.com/file/t85o4n).

And some day I may even get around to finishing it adding more to it.

graeylin
2010-04-25, 07:17 PM
my problem with the SU/EX designation is nowhere does that show up on the common PC races in my handbook...so if i poly into a dwarf, do i get darkvision?

as for the human feat, that could be nice... polymorph any object would let me poly into human, and pick up an extra feat then.

Methinks my mage just gained an extra feat.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-25, 07:23 PM
my problem with the SU/EX designation is nowhere does that show up on the common PC races in my handbook...so if i poly into a dwarf, do i get darkvision?I'm pretty sure darkvision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#darkvision) is defined as (Ex).


as for the human feat, that could be nice... polymorph any object would let me poly into human, and pick up an extra feat then.

Methinks my mage just gained an extra feat.Polymorph any object also gives you the stock-standard Int score for whatever you've turned into, thereby relegating you to 10 Int.

You're better off using normal polymorph.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-04-25, 07:29 PM
If you are human when you use polymorph you lose your own extraordinary racial features, this includes the human bonus feat and skill points.
So it stands to reason if an Elf polymorphs into a human they would gain a bonus feat and several skill points

*leveling assumes a few weeks of downtime between adventures while you level up. Not something that happened between encounter A and B in a dungeon like in a video game.*

Sir_Elderberry
2010-04-25, 07:35 PM
*leveling assumes a few weeks of downtime between adventures while you level up. Not something that happened between encounter A and B in a dungeon like in a video game.*
Is this RAW? I've played it as "effective your next extended rest".

graeylin
2010-04-25, 08:32 PM
I'm pretty sure darkvision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#darkvision) is defined as (Ex).

Polymorph any object also gives you the stock-standard Int score for whatever you've turned into, thereby relegating you to 10 Int.

You're better off using normal polymorph.

So, if i polymorph into a human, i get 10 for all my stats? Strength, dex, con, etc.? i can't polymorph into a smart human?

Also, what if i use the PAO to simply duplicate the effects of polymorph. Is duration an effect?

Curmudgeon
2010-04-25, 08:38 PM
For example, WOTC implies that low light vision and darkvision are "extraordinary special qualities"
They're only Extraordinary special qualities if they have "(Ex)" after them, or are explicitly called "extraordinary" in the description. Darkvision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#darkvision) is extraordinary, but low-light vision isn't; it's natural.
Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.


If you are human when you use polymorph you lose your own extraordinary racial features, this includes the human bonus feat and skill points.
There's nothing extraordinary about the human bonus feat and skill points. You get those with Polymorph because it refers to Alter Self, which explicitly picks up racial skill bonuses and racial bonus feats of the new form. Extraordinary abilities and racial bonus feats/skill points are entirely different things; they're just included in the same spell.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-25, 08:45 PM
So, if i polymorph into a human, i get 10 for all my stats? Strength, dex, con, etc.? i can't polymorph into a smart human?

Also, what if i use the PAO to simply duplicate the effects of polymorph. Is duration an effect?You can polymorph into a smart human (if you're smart), but you can't polymorph any object into one (the Int-replacement is automatic). However, using PAO to emulate one of the lower level spells would work, but then you only get the benefits of the lower level spells (ie, polymorph would only last 1 minute/lvl). At that point, you ought to just use a lower level spell slot (unless you don't have one prepared).

graeylin
2010-04-25, 09:27 PM
You can polymorph into a smart human (if you're smart), but you can't polymorph any object into one (the Int-replacement is automatic). However, using PAO to emulate one of the lower level spells would work, but then you only get the benefits of the lower level spells (ie, polymorph would only last 1 minute/lvl). At that point, you ought to just use a lower level spell slot (unless you don't have one prepared).

but even if i polymorph into a human, i get 10's on my STrength, Dex and Con? i take the average? Or does Polymorph give me different ability scores than PAO would give me?

Eldariel
2010-04-25, 09:36 PM
but even if i polymorph into a human, i get 10's on my STrength, Dex and Con? i take the average? Or does Polymorph give me different ability scores than PAO would give me?

Always average of the creature type you're turning into.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-04-25, 09:46 PM
There's nothing extraordinary about the human bonus feat and skill points. You get those with Polymorph because it refers to Alter Self, which explicitly picks up racial skill bonuses and racial bonus feats of the new form. Extraordinary abilities and racial bonus feats/skill points are entirely different things; they're just included in the same spell.

I refer you to the FAQ, A human’s bonus feat and bonus skill points—like most other racial traits—are considered extraordinary qualities,

To Sir_Elderberry, I refer you the PHB on page 58 in the bottom left for one.
And how PC's improve in the DMG for 2.
The general assumption is you train and actually level up during the down time between adventures. [xp is supposed to be awarded at the end of the adventure not during]

Grey,
*When you polymorph you get average physical ability scores PERIOD*

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-25, 09:53 PM
I refer you to the FAQ, A human’s bonus feat and bonus skill points—like most other racial traits—are considered extraordinary qualities,FAQ is not RAW. They're untyped, so they're natural, as the DMG specifies that anything not explicitly called out in a stat block as Ex, Su, or Sp (or Ps, as defined in the XPH) is natural.

That, and alter self explicitly gives racial bonus feats and skill bonuses, which overrides all the other rules regarding what you get regarding types of abilities. You don't normally get Su abilities, after all, and [psionic] feats are Su.


To Sir_Elderberry, I refer you the PHB on page 58 in the bottom left for one.
And how PC's improve in the DMG for 2.
The general assumption is you train and actually level up during the down time between adventures. [xp is supposed to be awarded at the end of the adventure not during]I've never been in a single campaign that ever gave more than a day or so's downtime.

No levels for us.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-04-25, 09:59 PM
FAQ is not RAW. They're untyped, so they're natural, as the DMG specifies that anything not explicitly called out in a stat block as Ex, Su, or Sp (or Ps, as defined in the XPH) is natural.

That, and alter self explicitly gives racial bonus feats and skill bonuses, which overrides all the other rules regarding what you get regarding types of abilities. You don't normally get Su abilities, after all, and [psionic] feats are Su.

I've never been in a single campaign that ever gave more than a day or so's downtime.

No levels for us.

Or scribing new spells into your book if your a wizard either.

graeylin
2010-04-26, 08:07 AM
Grey,
*When you polymorph you get average physical ability scores PERIOD*

thanks Lord V.... i must admit, i've never had it played that way before... we had always assumed that should someone poly into a musclebound barbarian, they would have more than 10 strength. So, you can appear to be healthy and muscled and strong, but in reality, you couldn't necessarily do what the person you were copying could in the feats of strength or dexterity department...

And you get the average stats across the board, except for PAO, in which case if you PAO'd into a muscle bound but stupid Barbarian, you would get all 10s and a an 8 or something in intelligence... you don't get average there, you get what they have? or would you be a smarter (10) person than they are, if they were at 6?

DanReiv
2010-04-26, 09:14 AM
Guys you don't get special qualities when you poly...

Only (Ex) special attacks. This make quite a difference.


It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.

Simple example with Aboleth here :

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/aboleth.htm

You gain only Slime (Ex) when you poly into an aboleth.

Darkvision (Ex) and Mucus Cloud (Ex) are extraordinary abilities but listed in special qualities. Psionics (Sp) and Enslave (Su) are special attacks but spells-like and supernatural abilities respectively. You get none of these.

Edit : you might want to take a look at the update on poly on wotc site. Several changes to poly, you keep your own subtypes for example, can't poly into a plant and get loads of immunities anymore (treant anyone ?) and several other stuff...

quicklink : http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/rg

In the middle : Polymorphing revisited (4 parts)

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-26, 09:39 AM
Guys you don't get special qualities when you poly...

Only (Ex) special attacks. This make quite a difference.


Simple example with Aboleth here :

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/aboleth.htm

You gain only Slime (Ex) when you poly into an aboleth.

Darkvision (Ex) and Mucus Cloud (Ex) are extraordinary abilities but listed in special qualities. Psionics (Sp) and Enslave (Su) are special attacks but spells-like and supernatural abilities respectively. You get none of these.

Edit : you might want to take a look at the update on poly on wotc site. Several changes to poly, you keep your own subtypes for example, can't poly into a plant and get loads of immunities anymore (treant anyone ?) and several other stuff...

quicklink : http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/rg

In the middle : Polymorphing revisited (4 parts)I go by the SRD, since it includes the most recent official errata updates. I ignore the Polymorph subschool spells, because they're rather dumb.

And none of it affects metamorphosis (which is the only one I have occasion to use, since I don't pull polymorph any object cheese) anyway.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-26, 10:04 AM
Edit : you might want to take a look at the update on poly on wotc site. Several changes to poly, you keep your own subtypes for example, can't poly into a plant and get loads of immunities anymore (treant anyone ?) and several other stuff...

quicklink : http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/rg

In the middle : Polymorphing revisited (4 parts)

Nope that was wildshape/Alternate form. Thanks for playing the game: we have lovely constilation prizes: Stars, they come out at night.

Polymorph is its own effect. So to quote Pres Obama: yes you can (get new type).


One common character ability affected by the new rule for polymorphing is the druid's wild shape ability, which now works like the alternate form special quality instead of the polymorph spell.

You read the wrong article if you wanted information about polymorph (ironic as the artickle says it is about polymorph).


They never nor will they ever change polymorph spell/effect.
Instead they make new sub spells called Polymorph school (that don't afect previous spells likle Alterself or polymorph). Then asked you stop using polymorph spell (they know it grants type and thus immunities, their bad).

Thet helped by changing every monster to alternate form instead of polymorph (like the Imp who has polymorph ability).

JaronK
2010-04-26, 10:11 AM
There's nothing extraordinary about the human bonus feat and skill points.

Actually, all feats are automatically Extraordinary unless otherwise specified (some has spell likes, for example). And yes, you do get the human racial bonus feat for a short time.

Note that the designers were very lazy with their ability type tags for a long time. Some stuff didn't get tagged until Monster Manual V (such as Spells, which are Ex Special Attacks). Other stuff was never tagged. For what it's worth, page 180 of the PHB gives a summary of the types. Remember though that Alter Self effectively gives natural abilities (see the Rules of the Game article on it) so those will be available to you, and that any ability that's not something else is natural.

JaronK