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grummul
2010-04-25, 10:22 PM
I usually play the wizard or the rogue in the group I play with. It has become simply a fact of life I have accepted. I find myself in an interesting scenario where another rogue and/or another wizard would hurt the party. I am giving the DMing reigns over to one of the other players and joining in as a PC. Party makeup is a Monk, Paladin (who is not there a whole lot), Rogue (built for melee but his HPs are so low that he stays at range), Witch and Cleric/Wizard (going for MT). PC level is 6. I contemplated another Wizard however due to the infrequency of the Paladin and the make up (the monk is really the only one doing much damage at this point) I decided to make a Human fighter.

Point Buy 25 points
3.5 Books and PF books allowed without approval
16K Gold according to PC wealth table

Base stats:
STR 20
DEX 15
CON 16
INT 13
WIS 7
CHA 7

I am looking for help around build optimization as they pertain to feats. My current thought process is an Ulfen Tower Shield, Full plate tanking machine.

Toughness
Exotic Weapon Prof Bastard Sword (Would this really be worth it?)
Combat Exp
Weapon Focus Bastard Sword
Imp Toughness
Imp Trip
Weapon Specialization Bastard Sword
Greater Trip


Gear Ideas so far:

Full Plate +1
Tower Shield +1
Bastard Sword +1
Belt of STR +2

For RP I have maxed my intimidate ranks and intend to be a neutral chotic Nordic warrior aka Wolfgar meets Airk Thaughbaer (willow) meets Gen Kael (also willow) meets Martin (Flesh + Blood) meets the Lich King (World of Warcraft). A conflicted angry warrior. Son of a Linnorm King and out of the icelands to hunt an allusive Linnorm more powerful than the ones found in his homelands.

I def want him to be a sword and shield fighter. I am open to other ideas. That pretty much sums up the concept and any input you guys can give me for feats etc would be very appreciated!

Thanks!

Mongoose87
2010-04-25, 10:36 PM
I wouldn't bother with the Bastard Sword. The nerf to the spiked chain really ruined exotic weapons. Just grab yourself a guisarme.

gorfnab
2010-04-26, 12:19 AM
If you're using pathfinder why not just take the Toughness feat from the PF PHB since it's basically Toughness + Improved Toughness combined which would free up a feat.

grummul
2010-04-26, 12:29 AM
If you're using pathfinder why not just take the Toughness feat from the PF PHB since it's basically Toughness + Improved Toughness combined which would free up a feat.

That was the toughness from the pathfinder phb. I combined the PF Toughness with 3.5 imp toughness... would that be allowed do you think?

Mongoose87
2010-04-26, 12:39 AM
That was the toughness from the pathfinder phb. I combined the PF Toughness with 3.5 imp toughness... would that be allowed do you think?

The difference is two HP. Just take PF Toughness.

Eldariel
2010-04-26, 10:53 AM
Reach weapons are your friends. Opp can't hit you if you trip him outside your their reach, and they can't get to your allies either as long as you keep them there. They provoke AoO no matter what they do. All in all, grand. Combine with Combat Reflexes and Stand Still along with Enlarge and it takes Colossal Long or Gargantuan Tall creature to reach you.

As said, Guisarme is the best option. Pick Spiked Gauntlet or Armor Spikes or such to smack nearby opponents in the face as desired. Get Enlarged a lot and profit. Though you could actually make a rather solid Eldritch Knight if you want Wizard. Yes, this means you can't use a Tower Shield, but eh, penalties to attack rolls kinda suck anyways and you avoid many more attacks by never letting the opponent hit you than you will with AC bonus. Also, reach makes you great for screwing with spellcasting.

Person_Man
2010-04-26, 11:12 AM
I just reread the Combat Maneuver rules, and it turns out that using a weapon one or two handed does not effect your check. So the optimal weapon for being a Pathfinder trip build is probably the Spinning Sword (Secrets of Sarlona, pg 136). Basically a Spiked Chain that you can only use with one hand.

I would drop Improved Toughness and Weapon Specialization.

What's an Ulfen Tower Shield?

Also, will your DM allow the Dungeoncrasher Fighter alternate class feature?

Eldariel
2010-04-26, 01:55 PM
I just reread the Combat Maneuver rules, and it turns out that using a weapon one or two handed does not effect your check. So the optimal weapon for being a Pathfinder trip build is probably the Spinning Sword (Secrets of Sarlona, pg 136). Basically a Spiked Chain that you can only use with one hand.

With a Guisarme though, you can two-hand PA to benefit of the AC penalty tripped opponents have for some decent damage to add for their troubles.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-26, 01:57 PM
I actually suggest using Twin Hooks (One of the Eberron Books), and going with TWF and Trip

Nevermore
2010-04-26, 02:14 PM
That is all extremely specialized and overly complicated; here's an idea. Instead of tripping all the time lets go for ability to stifle spell casters and murder folks

Drop weapon Spec and Improved toughness. You can get extra hp from favored class.
Use a shield if you want, but a tower shield is kinda a waste.

Step up
Disruptive
Vital Strike is nice, especially with d8-d12 weapons. Combat Reflexes into Stand Still also works wonders.
A utility fighter can and will work in Pathfinder. A feat every single level and 3 at starting as a human means you can do ALOT of stuff

Eldariel
2010-04-26, 03:08 PM
Vital Strike is nice, especially with d8-d12 weapons. Combat Reflexes into Stand Still also works wonders.

Vital Strike will suck from the second Haste and iteratives come into play though. Because it's specifically written not to multiply bonuses to damage, it's mostly worthless. Only way to move and deal reasonable damage in PF Core is Mounted Combat > Spirited Charge with Lance. Which is kinda blah, but there you go.

Kaiyanwang
2010-04-26, 03:15 PM
Vital Strike will suck from the second Haste and iteratives come into play though. Because it's specifically written not to multiply bonuses to damage, it's mostly worthless. Only way to move and deal reasonable damage in PF Core is Mounted Combat > Spirited Charge with Lance. Which is kinda blah, but there you go.

I agree, but at least you can move and strike. Maybe a keen greatsword and few good crit feats could bring a chance for a dynamic battle.

Moreover, VS is not linked to a single weapon IIRC. You can use it in situations where you must just prepare an action and increase the concentration DC for a flying enemy (I mean, using a bow).

That +xd8 could be useful.

Person_Man
2010-04-26, 03:23 PM
With a Guisarme though, you can two-hand PA to benefit of the AC penalty tripped opponents have for some decent damage to add for their troubles.

True.

But I was under the impression that their altered Power Attack made this less attractive, especially for Trip builds:

Pathfinder SRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/power-attack-combat---final):


Power Attack (Combat)

You can make exceptionally deadly melee attacks by sacrificing accuracy for strength.

Prerequisites: Str 13, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.

Power Attack now imposes a penalty on combat maneuver checks, which decreases the effectiveness of your Trip attempts (whereas previously the impact on your Touch Attack was manageable, and it had no effect on your opposed Str check). Also, the difference between one handed Power Attack and two handed Power Attack is only 5 points of damage (instead of 10), and the most you can use Power Attack for is 10/15 points of damage (instead of 20).

So if I'm reading this correctly (always a big if - I have yet to play Pathfinder as anything but a caster) PA is not that great of a choice in this situation.

Eldariel
2010-04-26, 03:30 PM
*snip*

You're correct, I missed the combat maneuver penalty. I guess that means you have to AoO trip someone and then PA the next turn or skip the Trip entirely. *shrug* How bothersome. Btw, Power Attack now penalizes Bull Rush. Reality check, someone?

Gametime
2010-04-26, 03:31 PM
I just reread the Combat Maneuver rules, and it turns out that using a weapon one or two handed does not effect your check. So the optimal weapon for being a Pathfinder trip build is probably the Spinning Sword (Secrets of Sarlona, pg 136). Basically a Spiked Chain that you can only use with one hand.

I would drop Improved Toughness and Weapon Specialization.

What's an Ulfen Tower Shield?

Also, will your DM allow the Dungeoncrasher Fighter alternate class feature?

The Spinning Sword doesn't mention tripping. That may or may not be a consideration, but the Kusari-Gama from the DMG offers all the one-handed goodness the Spinning Sword does, plus tripping, plus a bonus to disarms, all at the low, low cost of losing a 19-20 crit range.

Admittedly, a variant weapon from the DMG of the edition you're purporting to replace may not be allowed, but it seems at least as reasonable as a weapon from a specific part of a campaign setting you aren't using.

Person_Man
2010-04-26, 03:48 PM
Gametime, you are correct.

But now that I'm bothering to actually read the rules and not just quote from memory, I noticed that Greater Trip gives you a free Attack of Opportunity instead of the poorly worded "as if you hadn't attacked" attack. That means Improved Trip + Greater Trip + Knock-Down (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Knock-Down) should give you a bonus attack, whereas previously Knock-Down just made your actions more efficient (although I'm aware this was heavily debated in 3.5).

In fact, I think Eldariel hit upon something earlier - the lance. A small race only takes a -1 penalty on Combat Manuevers (instead of the -4 penalty in 3.5). A small race can ride a medium mount everywhere, get bonus damage from your Charge attack, get a free Trip from Knock-Down, and then a free follow up attack with Greater Trip. If anyone tries to counter-attack, you're using a reach weapon, and you can use Hold the Line and Knock-Down to prevent them from getting next to you. And if anyone does get adjacent to you and you're somehow not capable of taking a 5 ft step, you can attack them with a Spiked Shield.

This should yield higher damage then Pathfinder Power Attack, negate the need for any Exotic Weapon to threaten at a range and adjacent, give you at least one or two bonus attacks per round, and give you the added mobility of a mount. Not an amazing combo. But superior to the standard Pathfinder melee.

grummul
2010-04-27, 02:02 PM
I took some of your advice and revised my concept. New feats taken

toughness
combat reflexes
combat expertise
weapon focus (guisarme)
imp trip
knock down
power attack
greater trip

right now it's a total on trick pony. I intend to down enlarge pots regularly. 14 dex base plus enchantment bonus will give me 4 AoO per round. For now just use knockdown and when they try and get up use the AoO to knock them down again.

My next progression will probably to take unarmed strike for close combat. Or endurance and go into indomitable will. Plus iron will to make sure I don't kill the entire party. Other things to come are step up and disruptive. Then specialization and focus feats with crit feats on the guisarme. I feel like trip and disarm are the only viable manuevers outside of a grapple master which I feel is more appropriate for a monk/fighter or specialized fighter in hand to hand. Any other advice?

My intent is to charge into combat power attacking enlarged. Stop 20 feat away and smack someone. Get the free trip from knockdown. If it's a
single mob follow that up with an AoO from greater trip. Then just keep the mob on the ground until it's dead. Or for multiple mobs, reserve my 4 AoO for when each one enters that 20 ft hit box and smack them then get a free trip attempt.

pilvento
2010-04-27, 02:17 PM
i sugest you to enter the Kensai PrC, the 8str bonus he gets are awesom for your tip attemps.

one of my friends is playing a meatshield triper that uses the same feats u have.

he`s actual build is

pally4/fighter6/kensai...

its really funny to see a paladin of heironeus saying his honor speach after triping he`s oponents over and over.

Eldariel
2010-04-27, 03:09 PM
My next progression will probably to take unarmed strike for close combat. Or endurance and go into indomitable will. Plus iron will to make sure I don't kill the entire party. Other things to come are step up and disruptive. Then specialization and focus feats with crit feats on the guisarme. I feel like trip and disarm are the only viable manuevers outside of a grapple master which I feel is more appropriate for a monk/fighter or specialized fighter in hand to hand. Any other advice?

If you want that, just dip Monk. It gets you free UA Strike, bonus feats and good Will-saves. It's a good choice for a coreish 2-level dip even if it gives up a point of BAB. No more than that, but the 2-level dip adds quite a bit to a Fighter. Hell, eventually you can wear a Mithril Breastplate and benefit of Evasion too. AC Bonus and such you'll miss out on, but that's all trivial. You have armor for that, after all. You want UA Strikes, bonus feats and Will-saves and get all that. Besides, flavorwise, Monk (as a martial artist) fits a Fighter intent on learning unarmed combat.

Person_Man
2010-04-27, 04:03 PM
I took some of your advice and revised my concept. New feats taken

toughness
combat reflexes
combat expertise
weapon focus (guisarme)
imp trip
knock down
power attack
greater trip

I would drop Toughness and Weapon Focus Focus. Otherwise, looks good.

Also remember that Knock-Down works with any weapon. You do not need to use a guisarme or any other Trip weapon.



For now just use knockdown and when they try and get up use the AoO to knock them down again.

I'm not sure if this was changed in Pathfinder, but in 3.5 they made it clear in the FAQ that you could not Trip someone with the attack of opportunity provoked from the act of standing up, because the AoO comes before they stand.



Any other advice?

Enlarge Person may not be practical when you're in dungeons or otherwise tight areas, unless your To-Hit is high enough to deal with squeezing penalties. And while it's nice that it expands your reach, it doesn't have as much of an impact on your Trip checks as it used to under 3.5. So you might want to spend your feats on other things that improve your reach (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777), like Inhuman Reach or Deformity (Tall).

grummul
2010-04-28, 01:53 AM
What do you think about taking Monkey Grip, and using a Glaive? Jump my damage dice up to 2d8. Replace Weapon focus with that (I like how I'm sacking to hit for dmg lol). At level 6 It will put me at a +13 / +8 with my gear and str etc if I took monkey grip.

If I drop toughness I'd be worried about being too squishy but I could replace it with hold the line?

I like your concept about extending my reach through feats but both of those have me wasting 1 feat slot on nonsense prior to getting the feat I want.

Person_Man
2010-04-28, 09:14 AM
What do you think about taking Monkey Grip, and using a Glaive?

Monkey Grip is a horrible feat. It gives you a small non-scaled bonus to damage in return for a penalty to hit. Power Attack (even the Pathfinder version) is much better.



If I drop toughness I'd be worried about being too squishy but I could replace it with hold the line?

Yes, battlefield control > hit points. Which is not to say that you shouldn't keep your Con as high as possible. It's just that I think there are better things to do with feats. If you're really worried about death, try Fearless Destiny (Races of Destiny pg 152). Once per day when you are reduced to -10 or fewer hit points, you are instead reduced to -9 and stable. Unless the DM is a jerk and has his enemies coup de grace you, pretty much the only thing that will kill you is instant death effects.

grummul
2010-04-28, 01:39 PM
I appreciate the advice a lot! You seem to know quite a variety of feats! I will be taking your suggestion about toughness and weapon focus. I am considering imp bull rush and hold the line. Or possible step up for casters which will primarily give me the most issues.

I want imp bull rush so I can grab powerful build. I think that is a much better option than monkey grip. I plan to dip 2 levels into monk as that's like getting 1 feat and some decent saves at the sake of 1 to hit rating. The powerful build and bull rush feat would lead up to Knockback. I intend to solely use reach weapons and was thinking if I fail my trip attempt or to hit and they get close I just kick them in the chest, apply damage and get the bull rush movement from knockback. This also will allow me to diversify and take the grapple feats. The trip build is great until I face off against a dragon. I can't decide if I should spend the feats to make grappling the dragon to the ground viable or just pick up all the weapon focus specialization feats from phb2 and complete warrior to beef up my glaive damage. Although if I square off against a dragon and I have powerful build and I get enlarged doesn't that put me at huge. Which means I can trip a gargantuan?