Best MTG card?

[Scarey Nerd]

What would the good people of the GITP forums say is the best MTG card?

My vote is for Emrakul, the Aeons Torn: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193452

What about you guys?

[The Glyphstone]

I'd say the people in our long-running Magic Discussion Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149503&page=7)would have a lot of opinions.:smallbiggrin:

[Finn Solomon]

Ancestral Recall and Dark Ritual. And don't forget Juzam Djinn!

[Cubey]

There's no such thing as a best card in Magic. All that matters are card combos - how good one card works in conjunction with others, and how hard is it for the opponent to ruin your precious combination.

The thing you linked, for example: it has awesome stats but with that cost of 15 colorless, the game will be long over before anyone has mana to play it. Now, if you had some other cards that increase your mana pool, a'la Dark Ritual...

[Winterwind]

Under the definition of "best" equaling "most likely to contribute to your victory no matter how the rest of your deck might be structured", I'd say Black Lotus (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=600) probably wins the contest. For any more general use of "best", well... what Cubey said.

[Darwin]

There's a reason why the price of a Black Lotus could feed a third world village for a year :smallwink:

[valadil]

The thing you linked, for example: it has awesome stats but with that cost of 15 colorless, the game will be long over before anyone has mana to play it. Now, if you had some other cards that increase your mana pool, a'la Dark Ritual...

Surely there are sneaky ways to play that card without having to pay 15 colorless? I vaguely remember doing similar tricks with Natural Order way back in the Urza's block.

[BRC]

In my opinion, it's a tie between Mountains, Plains, Forests, Swamps, and Islands.

I have never built a deck without one or more of those cards, and they form the basis of almost every strategy I've seen.

[Cubey]

Surely there are sneaky ways to play that card without having to pay 15 colorless? I vaguely remember doing similar tricks with Natural Order way back in the Urza's block.

You are right, but that way we're no longer talking about a single card but rather about a combo.

[onasuma]

In my opinion, it's a tie between Mountains, Plains, Forests, Swamps, and Islands.

I have never built a deck without one or more of those cards, and they form the basis of almost every strategy I've seen.

I was going to post this, but you beat me to it.

[The Glyphstone]

In my opinion, it's a tie between Mountains, Plains, Forests, Swamps, and Islands.

I have never built a deck without one or more of those cards, and they form the basis of almost every strategy I've seen.

I proxied a theoretical land-free all-artifact deck once. Granted, it had the entire Power 9, and it still lost most of its matches, but it was land-free.

[Vorpalbob]

It is pretty impossible to find one "greatest" card, but I've always been a fan of infinite mana engines.

They are fun with Fireballs.

[Indon]

I proxied a theoretical land-free all-artifact deck once. Granted, it had the entire Power 9, and it still lost most of its matches, but it was land-free.

A more powerful version would probably be something that uses no basic lands, but still has a variety of cards that can readily be used as lands.

[Pig Norton]

Either Black Lotus, or Contract From Below.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=1147

I actually won a game in which my opponent played Contract From Below. He was already manascrewed, and he only drew into a land or two.

[The Extinguisher]

In my opinion, it's a tie between Mountains, Plains, Forests, Swamps, and Islands.

I have never built a deck without one or more of those cards, and they form the basis of almost every strategy I've seen.

The ABU duals are all strictly better than basic lands.
Vintage Dredge plays without mana at all.


I don't think it's possible the declare a "best card ever". Black Lotus is good, but it doesn't really win you games on it's own. Tarmogoyf is so efficient, but it dies to removal. Ancestral Recall is the best draw spell ever printed, but draw spells need to draw something good to be good. Force of Will is the best counterspell, but it's purely reactive.


If I had to pick a card that was the best ever, being the card that will win the most games for you, I'd probably have to go with Flash. Any card that can win before your first turn starts is probably pretty good.

[Flickerdart]

If I had to pick a card that was the best ever, being the card that will win the most games for you, I'd probably have to go with Flash. Any card that can win before your first turn starts is probably pretty good.
I don't get it (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=3337).

[Mirrinus]

I don't get it (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=3337).

Were you familiar with the Flash-Hulk deck played in Vintage a few years back? The deck used Flash to get out Protean Hulk, then immediately sacrificed it to get 6 CMC worth of creatures that instantly won the game on the spot (for example, 4x Disciple of the Vaults and 0-CMC artifacts like Shifting Wall and Phyrexian Marauder, which died immediately to make the opponent lose 32 life). The deck was so ridiculously powerful and consistant at winning on turn 1 (or even turn 0, with Gemstone Caverns) that Flash had to be restricted in Vintage, on par with the Power 9 and other ridiculous cards from Magic history.

[The Extinguisher]

FlashHulk is a combo that wins before you turns starts. Sure it needs Gemstone Caverns (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/274.html) and a Spirit Guide (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/122.html) to do it, but Flash the card is still one of the best combo enablers ever printed.

Ninja'd with a better answer!

Also, the deck would grab a Ravager as well, so they could grab any number of 0 mana artifacts.

[Jair Barik]

The linked card isn't really that great. I was recently pounded on turn 2/3 (cant remember which) by an extended deck that used no rares whatsoever and was built pretty much solely out of low mana cost elves (Llanowars, birchwoods etc.)

A horde of elves hasting you turn 2 is not nice. Neither is the storm ping spell after the opponent has just played pretty much his entire deck in one turn.

That said I did beat him first match by using the good ole psychatog.

The linked card is good in the same manner that Darksteel Colossus is good. It is far from power 9 good or even birds of paradise good.

Now this (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=201826) is a good card if yo ask me and anyone who played during Odysey will know what I'm talking about :smallbiggrin: (am definitely not saying it is the best card ever)

Also for those who say any of the 5 basic lands have you ever played against an Arcbound Ravager deck?

[Penguinizer]

If I had to choose a card that was the best combo enabler, I would have to say Yawgmoths Will. For 3 mana, you essentially win in Vintage.

[arguskos]

If I had to choose a card that was the best combo enabler, I would have to say Yawgmoths Will. For 3 mana, you essentially win in Vintage.
I was gonna roll with Will. Also, Necropotence is up there as well, for singlehandedly dominating the tournament scene for years (eg. Black Summer).

[Mirrinus]

The linked card isn't really that great. I was recently pounded on turn 2/3 (cant remember which) by an extended deck that used no rares whatsoever and was built pretty much solely out of low mana cost elves (Llanowars, birchwoods etc.)

A horde of elves hasting you turn 2 is not nice. Neither is the storm ping spell after the opponent has just played pretty much his entire deck in one turn.

That would be Extended ELVES! combo. I'm guessing the guy was relying on Heritage Druid and Nettle Sentinel for near-infinite mana on turn 2 while drawing his entire deck with Glimpse of Nature (the only rare required for the deck to work). LSV won the 2008 Pro Tour with that deck.

[Finn Solomon]

I was gonna roll with Will. Also, Necropotence is up there as well, for singlehandedly dominating the tournament scene for years (eg. Black Summer).

Wasn't it Black Winter?

[onasuma]

Best single card ever? Ive just remembered it. A hypothetical deck solely containing this card will win 99% of times - Rocket powered turbo slug.

[arguskos]

Wasn't it Black Winter?
Black Summer was Necropotence. Combo Winter was the Urza's Block combo disaster. IIRC anyways, it's been a long time since I played through those.

[Jair Barik]

That would be Extended ELVES! combo. I'm guessing the guy was relying on Heritage Druid and Nettle Sentinel for near-infinite mana on turn 2 while drawing his entire deck with Glimpse of Nature (the only rare required for the deck to work). LSV won the 2008 Pro Tour with that deck.

Most likely.
I also seem to recall some argument about the theoretical turn 1 win in odyssey (using only cards from the block) where if you had an exact hand some players said you could win
-1 mountain
-4 basking rootwallas
-1 anger
-1 rites of initiation

[Shas aia Toriia]

If I had to choose a card that was the best combo enabler, I would have to say Yawgmoths Will. For 3 mana, you essentially win in Vintage.

Yeah, but the whole Power 9 also gets a huge mention.

Also, I read something funny once, about first turn plays. It was describing plays that could win turn 1 with no chance of being stopped, but at the bottom was the deadliest of them all:

"Island, go"

[Jair Barik]

Yeah, but the whole Power 9 also gets a huge mention.

Also, I read something funny once, about first turn plays. It was describing plays that could win turn 1 with no chance of being stopped, but at the bottom was the deadliest of them all:

"Island, go"

Psychatog approves of this entirely.
On that note though the tog suffers greatly in multiplayer I am yet to find anything quite as amusing as Upheavel in a four player game (hmmmm perhaps upheavel in a 5 player game?)

[arguskos]

Psychatog approves of this entirely.
On that note though the tog suffers greatly in multiplayer I am yet to find anything quite as amusing as Upheavel in a four player game (hmmmm perhaps upheavel in a 5 player game?)
Upheaval is good. However, try a suspended Decree of Annihilation or Obliterate. That's good times.

[Jair Barik]

Yeah universal boom is funny but universal bounce be hilarious.
Another good multiplayer mass deathness is the following...

Play Rhox.
Play world slayer.
Equip Rhox with world slayer
Attack
Regenerate the rhox and float mana to play Terravore.

[Lord Seth]

Black Lotus. Ancestral Recall and Time Walk are godly as well, but Black Lotus is quite possibly the most flexible card in all of Magic: the Gathering. It works in almost any deck, whereas Ancestral Recall and Time Walk are limited to blue decks, and the Moxes, while useful in any deck, individually are going to be better for decks of their color. I thus give the win to Black Lotus for two reasons: It's extremely powerful, and it has a utility I don't think any other card can boast of. It can go in virtually any deck. Blue deck? Green deck? Artifact deck? Multicolored deck? Black Lotus works in 'em all.

[Eldariel]

Contract from Below (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=1147) (within tournament-legal cards Ancestral Recall (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=692))
Black Lotus (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=600)
Yawgmoth's Will (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=5629)

Pick your poison, that's the three best MTG cards ever in the relevant areas. Contract/Ancestral is the best card draw, Black Lotus is the best mana production, Yawgmoth's Will is the best win condition.

Of the three, Black Lotus is the best though since no matter what you're playing, Black Lotus fits the deck and makes the deck better. It's most powerful, but more importantly, more usable. As cards exist in a context, that's huge.


So...there. For most powerful (regardless of usability; that is, the best creature to cheat into play if you don't have to pay casting cost) creature, Emrakul takes the cake. Of course, it's also the most expensive creature without built-in casting cost reducer (strictly speaking, Draco (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=178018) beats it in that regard, but it rarely costs more than 6 in practice) in the game, so that's to be expected.

For most powerful card...Yawgmoth's Will (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=5629). Yes, really. Nothing equates to game win like Yawgmoth's Will. You can be losing the game however bad and then you cast Yawgmoth's Will, replay the whole game, draw a dozen cards, tutor for a bunch of things, find Tendrils of Agony (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=45842), kill the opponent and force him to discard his hand, and destroy all his permanents for good measure; flawless victory, etc.

[Pig Norton]

Contract from Below (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=1147) (within tournament-legal cards Ancestral Recall (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=692))
Black Lotus (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=600)
Yawgmoth's Will (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=5629)

Pick your poison, that's the three best MTG cards ever in the relevant areas. Contract/Ancestral is the best card draw, Black Lotus is the best mana production, Yawgmoth's Will is the best win condition.

Of the three, Black Lotus is the best though since no matter what you're playing, Black Lotus fits the deck and makes the deck better. It's most powerful, but more importantly, more usable. As cards exist in a context, that's huge.


So...there. For most powerful (regardless of usability; that is, the best creature to cheat into play if you don't have to pay casting cost) creature, Emrakul takes the cake. Of course, it's also the most expensive creature without built-in casting cost reducer (strictly speaking, Draco (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=178018) beats it in that regard, but it rarely costs more than 6 in practice) in the game, so that's to be expected.

For most powerful card...Yawgmoth's Will (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=5629). Yes, really. Nothing equates to game win like Yawgmoth's Will. You can be losing the game however bad and then you cast Yawgmoth's Will, replay the whole game, draw a dozen cards, tutor for a bunch of things, find Tendrils of Agony (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=45842), kill the opponent and force him to discard his hand, and destroy all his permanents for good measure; flawless victory, etc.

Yawgmoth's Will sets my broken senses a-tingling like crazy, but I don't actually see how you abuse it. What do you replay with it, and how do you get the mana?

[Bucky]

Yawgmoth's Will sets my broken senses a-tingling like crazy, but I don't actually see how you abuse it. What do you replay with it, and how do you get the mana?

Lion's Eye Diamond (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=3255) is the classic - Dark Ritual, play Will, sacrifice the Diamond in response, Dark Ritual again, play and sacrifice the Diamond again. 8 mana and all but one of your lands are still untapped. Add a Demonic Tutor for total madness as early as turn 1:

Swamp
Dark Ritual
Lion's Eye Diamond
Demonic Tutor (for Dark Ritual)
Dark Ritual (tutored for)
Yawgmoth's Will (sacrifice the Diamond in response for black mana)
Dark Ritual (from graveyard)
Dark Ritual (from graveyard)
Lion's Eye Diamond (from graveyard)
Demonic Tutor (from graveyard) for Tendrils of Agony
Tendrils of Agony (with 9 storm for the win)

[The Extinguisher]

Man, I really like calling Yawgmoth's Will the best card, but I just have so much love for Flash.

I think it must be based on my playstyle. I'm such a blue player.

[krko]

Black Lotus doesn't really fit into every deck. After all manaless Ichorid (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/13443_Crushing_Vintage_Without_Power_Nine_The_Mana less_Ichorid_Primer.html) exists. Pretty much every other deck "needs more Black Lotus", proof of how powerful that thing is.

[The Extinguisher]

Manaless Dredge is the most beautiful deck I have ever played. Just what it does. It's like a machine, but better. I have a friend with a Zombie deck that is a machine. It starts small and builds up and up until you can't stop it. Manaless Dredge is a machine built out of rainbows and unicorns.

[Eldariel]

Black Lotus doesn't really fit into every deck. After all manaless Ichorid (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/13443_Crushing_Vintage_Without_Power_Nine_The_Mana less_Ichorid_Primer.html) exists. Pretty much every other deck "needs more Black Lotus", proof of how powerful that thing is.

True enough. That said, even that's a sort of an obsolete deck (nowadays winning Ichorid tends to be Mana Ichorid), if a thing of absolute beauty too. But yeah, Black Lotus is nuts. And as for Yawgmoth's Will?

Well, even just playing Time Walk -> Yawgmoth's Will -> Black Lotus -> Ancestral -> Time Walk -> Tinker is pretty broken. You draw a bunch of cards, find robot, take two more turns and swing opponent dead. Just as an example. Basically, as long as you have few of the Black Lotus/Dark Ritual/LED/Lotus Petal/anything else in the grave, you get to produce more mana than you spent casting the spell.

Then you get to replay everything ever, including tutors for more mana or win cons, all your broken spells, all your draw, all your discard, everything. It's just...it's just so ridiculous words cannot even describe it.


Flash...isn't really what I understand as broken IMHO. Sure, it does something broken and it's completely busted with Hulk and e.g. Rector, but at the same time, it's a combo piece. It's much more like Illusions of Grandeur, Donate, Helm of Obedience or similar. Sure, it's the most powerful two-card combo ever, but it's still a two-card combo. I'd rather pick e.g. Tinker (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=194980) for my most powerful blue card (Ancestral is better, but it's hard to beat Tinker power-wise), but I'd be hardpressed to say with a straight face that it or even Balance (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=194966) is at Will-level.

But the real unsung hero of the story? Contract from Below (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=1147). B. 7 cards. Honestly now, you aren't losing after that so the extra ante is completely inconsequential. And remember, this was played back in the 40-card deck days. Most people don't even know it exists since it's been banned in all tournament formats ever. But it, it's the dumbest thing to grace the game ever.


Oh, and:

Yawgmoth's Will sets my broken senses a-tingling like crazy, but I don't actually see how you abuse it. What do you replay with it, and how do you get the mana?

This is precisely why those cards have gotten printed in the first place :smallbiggrin:

[Lord Seth]

Black Lotus doesn't really fit into every deck. After all manaless Ichorid (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/13443_Crushing_Vintage_Without_Power_Nine_The_Mana less_Ichorid_Primer.html) exists. Pretty much every other deck "needs more Black Lotus", proof of how powerful that thing is.That is why I quantified it with "almost every deck" can use a Black Lotus. Still, Black Lotus remains the single most versatile card in the entire game. Though it seems to me that even that deck could use a Black Lotus strategically, it would just mess up the "manaless" format of it.

[Eldariel]

I'm confused by the deck because I have no idea what "dredge" means. At first I thought it meant the card Dredge, but that isn't in the deck. So I clicked on the link that Dredge linked to, and it linked to the card! What the heck is a Dredge!

Ravnica (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=88960) mechanic (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193870) for (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=88994) the GB guild (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=89019) called Golgari (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=89001) that allows replacing draw (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=89009) with returning a card with Dredge from grave to hand (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=89021) and putting a number of cards from library to grave. (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=136053)

You can imagine it's not used to return cards to hand (in Dredge), but to put cards you want in grave anyways into grave and win the game. Generally you just put:
Narcomoebas (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=136140), Ichorids (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=35923), Bloodghasts (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=192230), Bridges from Below (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=136054), Cabal Therapies (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=34789) and Dread Returns (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=116721) to grave by dredging Grave-Trolls (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=88960), Stinkweed Imps (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=193870) and Golgari Thugs (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=88994) (cards with the highest Dredge-cost) a lot in one turn with your Draw-step, Bazaar of Baghdad (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=201220) (the key to Manaless Ichorid; find one and win - it mulls to 1 for it, and wins; also uses Serum Powder (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=48920) to dig for it) and in mana versions, Deep Analysis (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=32237), Cephalid Coliseum (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=29903), Breakthrough (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=29927) and maybe Tolarian Winds (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=25558) or Careful Study (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=29727) while discarding cards at the End of Turn by not playing lands, to Bazaar (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=201220), to Breakthrough (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=29927), to Tolarian Winds (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=25558), Careful Study (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=29727) (when in build needing handcards) and company (mostly not Coliseum as you need to dredge for it to work in the first place), and to Lion's Eye Diamond (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=3255) (0-mana One with Nothing! (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=88817)), Putrid Imp (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=34470) and Tireless Tribe (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=29695) in the mana version.

Then it just Dread Returns (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=116721) Flame-Kin Zealot (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83562) after ripping opponent's hand apart with Cabal Therapies (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=34789), has tons of Zombies from Bridge from Below (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=136054) and swings for 20. Alternative Dread Return targets include Sphinx of Lost Truths (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=185751) when needing more Dredging, and Iona, Shield of Emeria (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=190407) when it's enough to lock someone out but you can't quite kill them yet. Very brutal deck; turn 1 it discards something, turn 2 it dredges like ~20 cards, rips some hand and may just plain win. Manaless version plays additional disruption like Unmask (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19829), Chalice of the Void (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=48326) (at 0 to shut off opposing Moxen) and company. Some versions also run Force of Will (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=159092) and play more from hand, but those are unconventional and give up some of the deck's key advantages.

Generally, the deck always wins Game 1 and then fights hard against hate like Leyline of the Void (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=107682), Tormod's Crypt (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=109716), Ravenous Trap (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=197537), Relic of Progenitus (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=205326) and company. And yeah, much of the deck's power is in that thanks to Bazaar and Therapy, it doesn't really give a rat's ass about Force of Will. The manaless version anyways. Making it very hard to stop, and as it rips you apart, to race too. So...yeah. It generally Reverent Silence (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=22316)s or Nature's Claim (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=198357)s or Chain of Vapors (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=12447) hate but that means it's vulnerable to counters and LD and all that, making life all the more interesting. Green splash often uses Dryad Arbor (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=136196) as a Dread Return (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=116721)-sackable forest while others generally work off duals (to cast Cabal Therapies for opposing Forces too).

[Penguinizer]

Manaless Ichorid has problems dealing with Leylines, unlike Mana-dredge that can side in Wispmares and Emerald Charms for G2. Also, the most common Manabase for Dredge is not duals or arbors. It's actually rainbow lands like Gemstone Mine, Undiscovered Paradise, Forbidden Orchard and whatnot. They're superior to duals since Dredge doesn't really run fetchlands.

[Ecks Dee]

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/ftl/ftl32_cheatyFace.jpg

[Lord Seth]

StuffNaturally you reply and quote to an old version of my message, which I removed after I figured out what dredge was.

[Eldariel]

Naturally you reply and quote to an old version of my message, which I removed after I figured out what dredge was.

Well, now you got a crash course to Vintage Dredge anyways. :smallwink:

[Lord Seth]

Well, now you got a crash course to Vintage Dredge anyways. :smallwink:Well the article did really throw me off by unhelpfully linking to the card Dredge when it first mentioned the ability.

[Eldariel]

Well the article did really throw me off by unhelpfully linking to the card Dredge when it first mentioned the ability.

That's the Starcitygames auto-parser; whenever a word is a card (and that's often with how many cards exist in magic), it parses that as a card link. Something we have to deal with, unfortunately.

[Shas aia Toriia]

But the real unsung hero of the story? Contract from Below (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=1147). B. 7 cards. Honestly now, you aren't losing after that so the extra ante is completely inconsequential. And remember, this was played back in the 40-card deck days. Most people don't even know it exists since it's been banned in all tournament formats ever. But it, it's the dumbest thing to grace the game ever.


The reason no one mentions it is because it is banned. Also, you can't play it unless you are using ante, which doesn't exist, so you can't play it.

Obviously, when ante was around it was great, but now its the same as finding a card like this:

RG
Enchantment

All players take double mana-burn damage.

[Eldariel]

The reason no one mentions it is because it is banned. Also, you can't play it unless you are using ante, which doesn't exist, so you can't play it.

That doesn't impact a card's value in vacuum though; all it means is it's not legal in any tournament formats (though that's probably for the best). Being banned doesn't really mean anything outside DCI.

[Mirrinus]

That doesn't impact a card's value in vacuum though; all it means is it's not legal in any tournament formats (though that's probably for the best). Being banned doesn't really mean anything outside DCI.

I'd agree with that in most cases, but Contract From Below is special. The card itself is unplayable because if its own rules text. The card itself says "Remove this card from your deck before playing if you are not playing for ante." Therefore, you're not even allowed to have it in your deck if you aren't playing for ante. It's like if a card said:

Super-Special-Awesome!
Mana cost: U
Draw 7 cards.
If you played this card in a non-Yu-Gi-Oh match, you lose the game.

If someone is playing Contract From Below in a normal game of Magic, chances are they're not following the rules text of the card itself.

[Eldariel]

I'd agree with that in most cases, but Contract From Below is special. The card itself is unplayable because if its own rules text. The card itself says "Remove this card from your deck before playing if you are not playing for ante." Therefore, you're not even allowed to have it in your deck if you aren't playing for ante. It's like if a card said:

Super-Special-Awesome!
Mana cost: U
Draw 7 cards.
If you played this card in a non-Yu-Gi-Oh match, you lose the game.

If someone is playing Contract From Below in a normal game of Magic, chances are they're not following the rules text of the card itself.

Aye, but if you're assessing a card that's only legal in Ante-games, you obviously assess them in context of Ante-games. As it's not legal to have the card in your deck when not playing for Ante, I don't think the rules text is really any kind of an issue.

[Penguinizer]

What Contract from Below is is essentially a 1 CMC Wheel of Fate. Wheel of Fate is pretty good as well.

[The Extinguisher]

Wheel of Fortune is better :smallbiggrin:

[Eldariel]

Wheel of Fortune is better :smallbiggrin:

Not quite as good as Contract tho; B vs. 2R and not giving opp cards is some niceness.

[Penguinizer]

Being able to play the card in a sanctioned format is as well.

[Lord Seth]

Contract From Below really can't qualify as the best Magic card. It is probably the least versatile card out of any of the "good" cards. It's banned in nearly every format. Every casual game I have ever played banned ante cards. So as powerful as it may be if you can play it, you'll almost never be able to play it. (plus, adding a card to the ante can be risky...what if it was a Black Lotus?) I think how versatile a card is plays a key role in deciding what is the best card. And of all the cards listed so far, I'd say Contract From Below is the least versatile. It is only playable in very, very specific formats. It is only usable if you're playing a Black deck. Which is why I still hold up Black Lotus as the best card: Insanely versatile and insanely strong.

[Eldariel]

Contract From Below really can't qualify as the best Magic card. It is probably the least versatile card out of any of the "good" cards. It's banned in nearly every format. Every casual game I have ever played banned ante cards. So as powerful as it may be if you can play it, you'll almost never be able to play it. (plus, adding a card to the ante can be risky...what if it was a Black Lotus?) I think how versatile a card is plays a key role in deciding what is the best card. And of all the cards listed so far, I'd say Contract From Below is the least versatile. It is only playable in very, very specific formats. It is only usable if you're playing a Black deck. Which is why I still hold up Black Lotus as the best card: Insanely versatile and insanely strong.

By that logic, Black Lotus, Ancestral and such suck too since they're almost impossible to acquire, only legal as singletons in one format and so on. As such, I propose said logic is a load of rubbish and has no bearing whatsoever to this discussion.

[Deth Muncher]

Floral Spuzzem

[Winterwind]

If we are talking about cards not playable in most formats, I've always been wondering how Staying Power (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=74276) would work in a Bant Exalted deck. It's not the most powerful thing in the game by a long shot, but it is still hilariously broken. :smallbiggrin:

[Oslecamo]

This is precisely why those cards have gotten printed in the first place :smallbiggrin:

Speaking of wich, I always claimed that YWill isn't that strong because what it actualy does is double the power of the rest of your cards. So if you're playing a deck full of broken cards, then yes, YWill is broken as hell.

But if you're were playing a T2 deck or some deck whitout cheap mana acelerators then YWill isn't that hot really.

Plus there's the "overkill" factor. The title of the thread asks for the "best" card, and altough YWill allows you to deliver crushing blows whitout doubt, there are plenty of other paths for victory.

Something like black lotus will greatly power up pretty much any deck out there, but YWill's demands a deck partially built around it. And honestly, most of those decks would be pretty dangerous even whitout YWill. The YWill just makes them even better.

Just look at T1 decks. Black lotus is basically a must in that format, but YWill only shows up in less than half the builds.

Anyway, I'll give vote for the anti-best card of all times:trinisphere! It's the only card restricted in T1 because it actualy"fixed" type1 ! YWill is hardly broken when your dark rituals, tutors and black lotus are costing 3 mana a piece after all.:smallbiggrin:

[Shas aia Toriia]

A bunch of stuff

That's basicallly what we've been saying. If you build around it, Will is the best. However, the Lotus is the best in a vacuum.

[Mtg_player_zach]

I have Will in my cube and it is still amazing. No, lion's eye shenanigans, its still just good. Buddy had an akroma's memorial vs my all black/red deck. Was going to kill me next turn. I cast will then I cast profane command to give my 3 dudes fear and swing in to kill him.

[chiasaur11]

Gleemax. Definitely Gleemax.

[Lord Seth]

By that logic, Black Lotus, Ancestral and such suck too since they're almost impossible to acquire,There are multiple "Buy It Now" Black Lotuses on eBay. It's easy enough to acquire. Sure, the price is high, but you can go right now to eBay and choose Buy It Now and you've got one. Certainly not "almost impossible".


only legal as singletons in one format and so on.I'm interested in what this "and so on" is. And granted, it's true that of the official formats, Black Lotus is only allowable in Vintage (which is still more than Contract From Below). But my point with Contract From Below is that it is limited in a way only a handful of other cards are: It needs to be in a game with ante. And outside of some games my brother and I played with each other back when ante was actually in the books, I have never seen anyone ever play for ante. Black Lotus may be restricted in tournaments, but Contract From Below honestly borders on the unusable because people don't play for ante. There's a big difference between "of the official tournament types, Black Lotus is only allowed in this one" and "in all official tournament types and essentially every non-official tournament type and also pretty much every type of game that's ever played, Contract From Below is banned."

Even if we decide to forego issues of when the card can be used, Black Lotus still counts as better because it will go into any deck, whereas Contract From Below requires both a black deck and (if you want to count it) a player willing to risk a card to win a game.

[Eldariel]

Even if we decide to forego issues of when the card can be used, Black Lotus still counts as better because it will go into any deck, whereas Contract From Below requires both a black deck and (if you want to count it) a player willing to risk a card to win a game.

Contract from Below is the best card draw, regardless. Beats Ancestral. And regarding the "legality"-issue, I'm just pointing out that legality has nothing to do with card power. We aren't discussing "most playable card" or "the most played strongest card", but simply "the best card". The best card, at least in terms of strength, is the card of largest power in the entire game.

It is, indeed, somewhat ambiguous and it's probably Jace, the Mind Sculptor, that wins if we consider it in terms of "the most played strongest card", simply 'cause it's played in every format it's legal in, even if not in large numbers. This emphasizes legality over power and such isn't really interesting with regards to considering actual card power. This is also the only criterion that excludes Contract from Below.

Once we exclude this criterion and discuss actual card power, we'll have to bring every card including Ante and yes, even Un-sets, into the question. But Blacker Lotus cannot be recurred so it's worse than Black Lotus in context due to Yawgmoth's Will.

[Oslecamo]

Once we exclude this criterion and discuss actual card power, we'll have to bring every card including Ante and yes, even Un-sets, into the question. But Blacker Lotus cannot be recurred so it's worse than Black Lotus in context due to Yawgmoth's Will.

Non-recursion applies to contrat from below. It's not ripped apart, but you can actualy lose it in the ante, wich is basically the same for pratical purposes.

Also, if Un-sets are allowed, then R&Ds secret lab+Ashon's cup wins because it's a two card combo that wins whitout even needing mana. Make your oponent buy your drink. Wich you'll only sell for 10 millions. Or he concedes the game.:smallbiggrin:

And if you don't win the match, at least you're some millions richer in real life.:smallamused:

[Graymayre]

Squee Goblin Nabob

"Some goblins are expendable, others are impossible to get rid of. He's both at the same time!"

[Lord Seth]

Contract from Below is the best card draw, regardless. Beats Ancestral. And regarding the "legality"-issue, I'm just pointing out that legality has nothing to do with card power. We aren't discussing "most playable card" or "the most played strongest card", but simply "the best card".It seems to me that "most playable" would be a definite facet in determining "best".


Non-recursion applies to contrat from below. It's not ripped apart, but you can actualy lose it in the ante, wich is basically the same for pratical purposes.

Also, if Un-sets are allowed, then R&Ds secret lab+Ashon's cup wins because it's a two card combo that wins whitout even needing mana. Make your oponent buy your drink. Wich you'll only sell for 10 millions. Or he concedes the game.:smallbiggrin:

And if you don't win the match, at least you're some millions richer in real life.:smallamused:Well, actually...

Q: If I play an Ashnod's Coupon with a R&D's Secret Lair in play does my opponent have to pay the costs for the drink? --Flo L.

A: What does "Errata: You pay any costs for the drink" even mean? [cost] : [effect] would lead us to believe that you "errata" and as the effect makes you pay costs for the drink. How does one even do "errata" when an errata would be an erratum? In the end, we're stuck with a player fetching a drink-- which in order to become yours you must pay the costs for, and there's also some odd line about performing a singular thing plurally and then paying costs for something in some other effect that's seems related but is separate.Link (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/jc34).

A better combo is Mindslaver+Ashnod's Coupon+Donate+something that taps Ashnod's Coupon. More complicated, but much more clear-cut.

[The Extinguisher]

Demonic Attorney seems like the best card, because it for all intents and purposes reads 3 mana: You win the game and really requires nothing else to work properly (unlike Will, which is also 3 mana: You win the game but only less so)

[Eldariel]

Non-recursion applies to contrat from below. It's not ripped apart, but you can actualy lose it in the ante, wich is basically the same for pratical purposes.

That isn't exactly the same though as Blacker Lotus is actually destroyed when you cast it, while Contract could theoretically be lost in a game; casting it never causes you to lose it. As such, recurring it is just fine. In other words, if it ends up in your grave, you can easily return it to hand and replay it or whatever.

[Lord Seth]

Demonic Attorney seems like the best card, because it for all intents and purposes reads 3 mana: You win the game and really requires nothing else to work properly (unlike Will, which is also 3 mana: You win the game but only less so)...how does Demonic Attorney make you win the game?

[Milskidasith]

...how does Demonic Attorney make you win the game?

Same thought here.

It's an ante only card, and only escalates the ante. It's useless in non ante games.

[The Extinguisher]

Given that the original card text says "unless your opponent immediately concedes the game...", I think you can understand what it's getting at here.

[Milskidasith]

Given that the original card text says "unless your opponent immediately concedes the game...", I think you can understand what it's getting at here.

No, I really can't. It's pretty clear cut. The opponent either loses, or adds a card to the ante along with you.

[Lord Seth]

Given that the original card text says "unless your opponent immediately concedes the game...", I think you can understand what it's getting at here.Not really. Your claim is that players will invariably concede in response to that. I'm afraid I don't see why.

[Oslecamo]

A better combo is Mindslaver+Ashnod's Coupon+Donate+something that taps Ashnod's Coupon. More complicated, but much more clear-cut.

Still not, because even if that FaQ is correct, secret lab+coup still allows you to tell your player to go fetch some low cost drink that only exists in another continent. You pay the drink, he pays the plane ticket. From the first turn, instead of 4 card combo that will demand at least 10 mana to pull it off.

[Lord Seth]

Still not, because even if that FaQ is correct, secret lab+coup still allows you to tell your player to go fetch some low cost drink that only exists in another continent. You pay the drink, he pays the plane ticket.Note that it says "You pay any costs for the drink." That would seem to include any money required to go get it.

[Squark]

For that matter, you could just ask them to get you a beer*- My FLCS doesn't stock alcohol, so they'll have to waste time getting into a car and driving to the nearest liquor store. Of course, if you're playing at someone's house, check if their fridge has any beer in it before you try this. Still, all that's happening is you're stalling the game, and un-games don't have a time limit.


*Provided you're of the appropriate age, of course. Can't have them getting into trouble buying alcohol for minors. Actually, you could, but I don't think you'd get away with it.

[Lord Seth]

Actually, the official Magic: the Gathering web site has some interesting things to see about the usage of Ashnod's Coupon...

Ashnod's Coupon
Q: Can I use Ashnod's Coupon to force my opponent to go to Hawaii for a special drink that's only available there?
A: No. The rules governing unsportsmanlike behavior still apply. A player should ask only for something that can be reasonably acquired.

Q: Can I force a minor to get me a beer?
A: For years we've tried to avoid acknowledging this fact, but I guess it's time the truth finally came out. Your national government's laws actually supersede all Magic rules. I just hope some nations don't pass new Mulligan laws.

Q: While my opponent is away, can I perform other tasks, like picking the next action for Bureaucracy?
A: No. Ashnod's Coupon's effect does not resolve until the drink is returned. (Where else but an Unglued QAS can you hear a line like that?)Link (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mg120).

[Squark]

Hadn't actually seen the Unhinged and Unglued FAQ's. Mostly because I didn't know they existed, and don't have much cause too, frankly.

[Lord Seth]

I should mention, though, that the Mindslaver+Donate+Ashnod's Coupon+something that'll tap Ashnod's Coupon combo does work. Hard to pull off, but it means if your opponent doesn't have a way of stopping the combo, your opponent either has to give you as much money as you want, or give up the game. Of course, there are far more efficient game-winning combos that cost less mana and require fewer cards.