[3.5] Psionics and ToB, build ideas

[Master_Rahl22]

So, I'm applying to a game that allows both Psionics and ToB, and I've been thinking about some kind of combo between the two to make use of Psionic Focus + tasty DM maneuvers + Instant Clarity, just for starters. We are starting at level 3, so it will of course need to be playable from that level. Stats are rolled, and as follows: 15, 14, 14, 13, 13, 12. Allowed sources are: Complete Series, Races of, Core, PHB2, Expended Psionics, Tome of Magic, Tome of Battle, Book of Exalted Deeds, Draconomicon, and additional ones on case by case basis.

My initial thought is to combine Swordsage and Psychic Warrior for the Wis synergy, or Warblade and Psion for the Int synergy. Of course, with those stats even crossing them up shouldn't be too much less effective than sticking to the ones that use the same mental ability. So, has anybody done this before and can point out some neat tricks or pitfalls to avoid? Any suggestions for which classes to combine, or nifty maneuver + power combos? Thanks in advance.

[Lycanthromancer]

Jade Phoenix Mage is REALLY easy to convert to psionics, though it's a bit limited on what you can learn, maneuver-wise. Of course, you could convince your DM to change the schools you can learn to psionics-specific ones (check for homebrew ones).

[Master_Rahl22]

I hadn't thought of homebrew schools for maneuvers, so I'll check that out but I'm not really looking to come up with my own homebrew. My first thought was to be mainly one and splash the other, either mostly psionic with splashes for key maneuvers and the use of Instant Clarity feat, or mostly ToB with splashes for useful buffs from powers and gaining the Psionic Focus for use with DM maneuvers.

Hmm, I found this gem in the Homebrew forum courtesy of DaTedinator:


Psychic Swordsman [Psionic]
You have honed both your martial and psychic talents, and have learned to integrate both into your fighting style.
Prerequisite: Weapon aptitude.
Benefit: If you have levels in psychic warrior and warblade, those levels stack for the purpose of determining your initiator level and your manifester level. In addition, you may determine the bonus granted by your warblade class features with your Wisdom modifier instead of your Intelligence modifier.
This sounds like exactly what I'm after, sort of a Tashalatora for Warblades instead of Monks. If I can get the DM to accept it, I think I'll go this way. Any thoughts on how many levels of each I should take? It's not an obvious case of Monk2/PsyWar18 like the Tashalatora Monk. I'm waaay too many homebrew schools to dig through myself, does anybody know of some that mesh well with this blend of ToB and Psionics the way Diamond Mind does?

[Master_Rahl22]

Wow, and now I found the Mental Grip (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7669158#post7669158) discipline, also courtesy of DaTedinator which combines maneuvers and psionics. There's also Sleeping Goddess (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5408244) courtesy of The Demented One. Does anybody else have a nifty PrC or school of maneuvers to throw in, or ideas for a specific build?

[ErrantX]

Eldariel has a neat ToB/Psi PrC out there called the Ephemeral Blade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5883542), I dig it. It's like a psionic Swiftblade.

-X

[Prime32]

Note that ToB classes already add half their levels in other classes to determine initiator level and what level of manouvers they can learn. If you want 9th-level manouvers at lv20 you only need 14 levels in a ToB class.

That homebrew multiclass feat is already more powerful than Practiced Manifester.

Consider ardent (one of the few good parts of Complete Psionic) instead of psychic warrior. IIRC their maximum power level known is based on their manifester level.

[Pechvarry]

In the early levels, I think it'd be neat to expend your psionic focus for its normal use: taking 15 on a concentration check. Combine with Diamond Mind maneuvers. Grab feat for move action focus, grab psicrystal and feat to let it hold a focus for you... could be quite fun.

[Optimystik]

Consider ardent (one of the few good parts of Complete Psionic) instead of psychic warrior. IIRC their maximum power level known is based on their manifester level.

Yes; and with creative mantle choice (not to mention pimping (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a)) you can gain all the Psywar powers you would have chosen anyway, learn them more quickly, and have over twice as much PP as you would have had to manifest them with. Since you're already gaining MWP from your ToB side, there's no reason to go with Psywar over Ardent here.

[Eldariel]

I made a Psi/ToB PrC for a character of mine at a point. You can find it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5883542).

EDIT: Ninja'd to my own PRC? I should feel flattered.

[Pluto]

I played an Egoist/Warblade/Slayer once (one level Warblade, 2 levels other classes, one level Warblade, etc.); it went very well.

Retrospectively though, things like Ardent/Crusader*/Sanctified Mind or Warblade** 1/Psychic Warrior 19 with lots of Martial Study feats would have been stronger choices.

*for the recovery mechanic
*for the recovery mechanic and because Tiger Claw and Diamond Mind play very nice with PWs

[Master_Rahl22]

@Prime32: That feat isn't meant to be comparable with Practiced Manifester, it's more like Swift Hunter or Ascetic Knight that allow you to stack 2 classes for the purpose of advancing a few benefits of both.

Thanks for suggesting Ardent, I think I'm going to go with Warblade1/Ardent2 to start with, and we'll see where I go from there. I may get into one of the homebrew PrCs that I've seen around or may just continue flipping back and forth between the two classes.

For stats, I'm thinking:
Str - 14
Dex - 13
Con - 13
Int - 14
Wis - 15
Cha - 12

That 15 in Wis will let me boost it every level and have a 19 in time to use 9th level powers. The Con is 13 cause one boost will retroactively increase my HP, unlike with Int. Dex is 13 cause I can wear heavy armor if I want/need more AC.

I'm thinking of taking Conflict and Physical Power as my primaries, and grabbing Time at level 2. Other Mantles that look good to me are Fate and Guardian, although I'm not sure how many levels of Ardent I'll end up with.

So, my next question is about recommended feats. I don't qualify for Instant Clarity or Psionic Meditation yet. Is Psychic Renewal worthwhile? I've seen Linked Power mentioned as great for buffing, so I might try to fit that in somewhere. Any other thoughts?

[Lycanthromancer]

Linked Power is, indeed, awesome, especially if you have one or more swift powers to use (hammer is great, especially if you have lots of natural attacks; otherwise, use grip of iron to assist you with touch attacks).

Grabbing the expansion power, along with strength of my enemy and definitely metamorphosis, would be totally worthwhile for you. Claws of the beast for a nice long duration buff, and share pain + vigor + a psicrystal to stave off damage. I like defensive precognition to boost saves (insight bonuses to saves and AC are rare), and a ranged blasting power or two wouldn't be at all amiss.

If you don't want to specialize in using swift actions to buff, Combat Reflexes will let you buff on your turn, and damage enemies using AoOs.

[Master_Rahl22]

I definitely like Linked Power, but how do you propose I get Expansion and Strength of My Enemy as an Ardent? I saw Metamorphosis was in I think Natural mantle, but I'm not sure I want it just for that power. Are you talking about the ACF to substitute powers into mantles? If so, where do you think those powers you mentioned would fit into Conflict, Physical Power, Time, Fate, or Guardian?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Maybe go something like Crusader 4/ Sanctified Mind 1/ War Mind 10/ Sanctified Mind 5 for your build. Pick up Martial Study later on for a few choice higher level maneuvers, and be sure to get Practiced Manifester so you can better augment your powers. Be sure to pay 3,000 gp and say you've visited the Otyugh Hole detailed in Complete Scoundrel to get Iron Will without spending (wasting) a feat on it. You'll need to pick a psionic race, or get Wild Talent or possibly Warped Mind, to qualify for War Mind, but otherwise it's fairly open. Sanctified Mind is in Lords of Madness, it's not an exceptional class but it fits the build quite nicely, mostly just making it work without sacrificing any BAB. This is primarily a War Mind build that you can qualify for with just about any Fighter BAB class, but it works well with ToB. I'm sure there are stronger choices if you're using homebrew material, but this is still something to consider.

[Escheton]

mindfeeder weapon enchantment gives you temporary powerpoints on crits.

so a swordsage critbuild/ psion or whatever, is pretty sweet

[Lycanthromancer]

I definitely like Linked Power, but how do you propose I get Expansion and Strength of My Enemy as an Ardent? I saw Metamorphosis was in I think Natural mantle, but I'm not sure I want it just for that power. Are you talking about the ACF to substitute powers into mantles? If so, where do you think those powers you mentioned would fit into Conflict, Physical Power, Time, Fate, or Guardian?You can research powers using Psicraft checks, which adds a single power to your powers list; also, just over 6,000 gp will get you a single 1st level power to your powers known via psychic chirurgery (not a big deal if you do it during character creation, but it'll be difficult to get in-game). You can also take Expanded Knowledge.

Strength of my enemy, expansion, metamorphosis, and claws of the beast either one could slide rather easily into Physical Power, and possibly Conflict as well.

Alternately, you could make a new mantle:

SAVAGERY MANTLE
Granted Ability: As a free action, you may expend your psionic focus to deal an additional 1d6 points of damage to all melee attacks that deal damage that you make for 1 minute. After the minute is over, you are left sickened for 1 minute. You cannot use this ability if you are sickened, nauseated, fatigued, or exhausted, or if you are under the effects of this ability.

1. Bite of the Wolf: Gain bite attack for 1d8 damage. You are treated as a psychic warrior of your manifester level for the purposes of this power.
1. Claws of the BeastA: Your hands become deadly claws.
1. HammerA: Melee touch attack deals 1d8 bludgeoning damage for 1 round.
2. Psionic Lion's ChargeA: You can make a full attack in the same round you charge.
2. Share Pain, ForcedA: Unwilling subject takes some of your damage.
2. Strength of my EnemyA: Siphon away your enemy's strength and grow stronger.
3. Claws of the Vampire: Heal half of your claw's base damage.
4. Metamorphosis: Assume shape of creature or object (creatures only).
4. Personality Parasite: Subject's mind calves self-antagonistic splinter personality for 1 round/lvl.
6. Form of DoomA: You transform into a frightening tentacled beast.
7. Fission: You briefly duplicate yourself.
9. Metamorphosis, GreaterX: Assume shape of any nonunique creature or object each round (creatures only).

*For those of you worried about 11 powers on a list, the Knowledge Mantle also has 11 powers, and the Communication Mantle has 10.

[Master_Rahl22]

I'll ask the DM about pimping mantles or using custom ones. I don't see anywhere in the SRD about learning new powers known with Psicraft checks. Do you have a source?

[Lycanthromancer]

I'll ask the DM about pimping mantles or using custom ones. I don't see anywhere in the SRD about learning new powers known with Psicraft checks. Do you have a source?

It's stated here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#independentResearch) that:


Any kind of manifester can create a new power. The research involved requires access to a retreat conducive to uninterrupted meditation. Research involves an expenditure of 200 XP per week and takes one week per level of the power. At the end of that time, the character makes a Psicraft check (DC 10 + spell level). If that check succeeds, the character learns the new power if her research produced a viable power. If the check fails, the character must go through the research process again if she wants to keep trying.