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Binks
2010-04-26, 11:07 AM
I'm still relatively new to D&D, and while I've heard over and over again that monks are weak and a low-tier class I just can't help but be fascinated by the concept of an unarmed fighter that's immune to a lot of the 'special' types of damage like poison and the like. So I'm looking for advice/design help, here's the specifics.

Level 10, 49,000 gp, any race from the PHB (thinking just human right now but I'm open to some of the 'normal' species), 36PB abilities, standard multi-classing rules, up to 2 traits and 2 flaws.

The books the GM has allowed are:
Players Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Unearthed Arcana, Complete Arcane, Complete Adventurer, Complete Warrior, Complete Divine, Complete Mage, Complete Scoundrel, Complete Champion, Races of Stone, Races of the Wild, Races of Destiny, Tome of Battle, Tome of Magic, Sandstorm, Storm Wrack, Frost Burn, Miniatures Handbook, Players Handbook II, Arms And Equipment Guide

I've personally got access to the basics and the SRD, but none of the Complete X or Tome books. That being said if there's something from one of those books that's a make or break for the character I can always see about getting the book.

The game's supposed to be more RP focused, but I want to serve a useful purpose in combat, ideally as a battlefield control type. Wizards are banned from the gameworld, so I'd like to be able to run around hitting clerics/casters and disabling them, or helping teammates. Out of combat the slow fall, pureness of body and high speed seem appealing, I'd love to be able to parkour about a city in pursuit of something, so balance, jump and climb are going to be at least decently important skills.

I've got two main ideas right now, the first being a pure monk 10 using a monk belt and other magic items to buff up attack/damage in battle. The other idea is a monk/cleric, picking up some of the cleric's divine casting to buff up my combat capabilities. Not a big fan of that, however, since it would prevent me from ever getting some of the interesting high-level monk powers.

I'm not looking to be a top-tier fighter. I'm looking to be more of a support character in combat, hitting important enemies with a stunning blow while jetting around the battlefield (tumble probably important too).

Thanks for any help you can offer me. It's just kind of hard considering all the options when relatively new to D&D.

Divide by Zero
2010-04-26, 11:17 AM
Take a look at the swordsage in Tome of Battle, specifically the unarmed variant on page 20. It's basically like the monk, but superior in almost every way. Might want to see if that works for you.

The Glyphstone
2010-04-26, 11:21 AM
Tome of Battle is on that list. Use it. An Unarmed Swordsage can do all of what you're looking for and more, particularly if you focus heavily on Setting Sun (the Tornado Throw line of maneuvers is particularly entertaining). Plus, they're fun, with all the immediate-action counters you can get to resist spells, dodge attacks, or make enemies punch each other in the face.

A 2,000GP ring of Feather Fall is better than the Slow Fall of a level 20 Monk. Being able to move and attack effectively is better than moving really fast and not being able to attack. A single Cure Serious Wounds will outstrip a full Wholeness of Body, and poison immunity is trivial.

Seriously - if you have ToB to use, and aren't already aligned against it, give it a try. Swordsage is Monk flavor, with all the fun and minus the fail.

Gnaeus
2010-04-26, 11:22 AM
Do you know what else is in your party? How experienced are the other players, and do they optimize?

And yeah, unarmed swordsage is much like monk but better.

Flickerdart
2010-04-26, 11:24 AM
If you have access to the SRD, you have access to the Psionic Fist and Slayer Prestige Classes. These have the power to make your Monk not depressingly awful. Monk 6/Psionic Fist 1/Slayer 3 gives you 2nd level powers, which include the wonderful Strength of My Enemy, Dimension Swap, Hustle and Psionic Lion's Charge.

Superglucose
2010-04-26, 11:24 AM
+1 the Swordsage. As a general rule, if the Monk can do it, so can the Swordsage who can also do more. Like instead of Stunning Fist, you use the maneuver Stone Vise, which also deals extra damage.

Ernir
2010-04-26, 11:28 AM
I'm still relatively new to D&D, and while I've heard over and over again that monks are weak and a low-tier class I just can't help but be fascinated by the concept of an unarmed fighter that's immune to a lot of the 'special' types of damage like poison and the like.

I echo the Unarmed Swordsage recommendation. The ToB classes are especially beginner-friendly, in the way that it's hard to go terribly wrong with them.



Anyway. If what you want is a Monk with Monk levels and will accept no substitutes, there are a few feats you may want to take...

Travel Devotion (Complete Divine): Lets you actually use your movement speed and Flurry abilities in the same round. Unless you take a level of Cleric or something that grants Turn Undead, it's only 1/day, though.
Rapid Stunning (Complete Warrior): Lets you try again when your Stunning Fist attacks fail.
Versatile Unarmed Strike (PHB2): Lets you use damage types other than Bludgeoning. So that things with DR/Piercing or something don't completely ruin your character's day.
Pain Touch (Complete Warrior): Keeps the stunned victims out of the battle longer.
Ability Focus: Stunning Fist (Monster Manual): Increases the DC on your Stunning Fist.

Hawk7915
2010-04-26, 11:45 AM
in before everyone tells you to play anything other than a Monk. Having Tome of Battle does make playing an Unarmed Swordsage a strong option, however :smalltongue:

Is the rest of your party also relatively new players? Monks can do a little better there, when players aren't building as strong of characters.

Here's a build
Stat array: (level-up bonuses went to Wisdom)
STR: 16
DEX: 13
CON: 14
INT: 10
WIS: 19
CHA: 8

Monk Feats: Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip
Feats:
1: Law Devotion (Complete Champion, 1/day for one minute gain a +5 to Attack or Armor, can swap with each round)
Flaw: Travel Devotion (Flaw taken is Shaky; it's cheesy but you are a monk so it all balances out. Complete Champion, move your speed as a swift action for 1 minute/day)
Flaw: Versatile Unarmed Strike (Flaw taken is Vulnerable since your AC sucks anyways. PH2, Lets you switch damage type of your fists)
H: Ability Focus: Stunning Fist
3: Pain Touch (Complete Warrior, enemies you stun are nauseated the round after)
6: Knock-down (SRD, free trip against enemies you deal 10+ damage to)
9: Superior Unarmed Strike (+4 monk levels for unarmed striking)

Key Gear:
Monk's Belt (SRD, 13,000 GP. Ask your DM if this and Superior Unarmed Strike stack, and take a different feat if they do not. RAW is probably that they don't stack, but they might/should. Martial Study for a good maneuver is a fine back-up plan, though)

Necklace of Natural Weapons (+1 of Collision) (Savage Species, ~ 18,600 GP. +1 attack and +6 damage on Unarmed Strikes :smallbiggrin:)

Stat boosters: Str, Dex, Con, or Wis. Or grab a Belt of Magnificence for +2 all stats (MiC, don't remember the price but around 12,000 I think???)

Winged Boots are great but awfully expensive (you can live with "just" a +2 or +1 Vicious necklace for now, and buy them though, if your DM let's you).

Bracer's of Armor +X, where X is your remaining wealth.
=============
Not the greatest build ever, but should manage to not be totally useless depending on the rest of your party (if your teammates are a Druid, a Psion, and a Warblade, reconsider that Swordsage thing)

EDIT: Or not "in before". Darn ToB ninjas! :smalltongue:

Godskook
2010-04-26, 11:51 AM
Guys, the psionics aren't in the allowed books.

Prodan
2010-04-26, 12:01 PM
{Scrubbed}

The Glyphstone
2010-04-26, 12:03 PM
You do know that's like invoking the name of Hastur, right? Only two more times and He will appear to drive us all mad.

Optimystik
2010-04-26, 12:04 PM
You can be a great monk so long as you multiclass/PrC properly. You already mentioned Sacred Fist, which is the standard way to de-suck the Monk. Tashalatora (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070212a&page=5) is another - that feat overshadows Psionic Fist considerably, allowing you to be a combat powerhouse fueled by amazing psionic feats like Up the Walls and Stand Still, along with great powers like Hustle and Vigor, with a lot more PP and a more damaging punch.

If you're dead-set against magic, psionics and maneuvers, you can still be a decent monk. Tattooed Monk (CWar), Shou Disciple (UE) and Monk of the Enabled Hand (DragComp) are all great PrCs that offset many of the monk's weaknesses without relying on theurging him. Tattooed Monk nets you neat benefits like all-day Alter Self, poison/disease/aging immunity earlier than the regular monk gets it, fear immunity and removes the need to eat/drink. Shou Disciple is full BAB, has d10 hd, martial weapon proficiency, and even lets you flurry with martial weapons. MotEH lets you turn some of your unarmed strikes into touch attacks, grants you ki strike (Lawful), disarm opponents with ease and even slap them across the room.

Best of all, they are all short (TM is the longest at 7 levels, the others are 5 each) so you can fit them all into your build with a little trimming.


Guys, the psionics aren't in the allowed books.

He doesn't need the books for psionics:


I've personally got access to the basics and the SRD

Prodan
2010-04-26, 12:06 PM
You do know that's like invoking the name of Hastur, right? Only two more times and He will appear to drive us all mad.

U Mean Dat?

Il_Vec
2010-04-26, 12:12 PM
Since you are using the Unearthed Arcana, look at the Druidic Avenger, with the druid variant to trade wild shape for monk abilities. Use that to get into Sacred Fist. If you don't want to use Swordsage, at least take some Martial Study/ Martial Stance from the ToB, as it is in your books list.

Hawk7915
2010-04-26, 12:15 PM
Oh, and in the build I gave, even a single level of cleric is probably worth it. 2 turn attempts/day to power your devotion feats, a few spell slots that are mostly not good for much but at least they are there, and the ability to use divine scrolls and wands without a check (so you can pick up a few scrolls of Divine Power to become superman every once in a while, and carry a Wand of Lesser Vigorto help patch up teammates after combat). Unless you use fractional BAB/saves, you end up with lower attack and reflex saves, but it's still a good trade.

Binks
2010-04-26, 12:51 PM
Heh. I mentioned this to one of my friends and his immediate response was to say that I should be playing an unarmed swordsage instead, I guess that's a common response. He let me borrow his Tome of Battle so I think I'll be going with that, I thought of psionics, but it's not on the GM's list (I have more experience with psionics than the basics actually :P) and I don't have very many books, so this looks like the best bet.

I assume the unarmed swordsage variant is the one mentioned in the adaptation section (drop light armor and gain monk unarmed progression). The only thing I'm not a huge fan of losing is the speed bonus from monks, having 60ft base movement speed at level 10 seemed really cool. Is that at all replicatable using magic items/feats? I know of the boots of striding and springing, but that's only +10ft (though I also want to get those for the bonus to jump checks). Are there any other items that give +speed that are useful and in the books listed?

As for the actual build I'm thinking right now of a 14/16/12/12/16/10 starting array, with the 2 +'s going into wis. Would it be better to drop the str points and use weapon finesse or is hanging on to decent str a good idea?

Any suggestions for actual maneuvers? If I've got my math right I basically get 3 maneuvers from level 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 (giving up level 1 maneuvers at each even level to get the highest possible level). A lot of them look interesting (particularly stone vise and death mark) but are there any ones that I 'absolutely' need to make a good character?

For stances I'm a lot more restricted so I have a list of ones I was considering.
Level 1(1) - Flame's Blessing (I plan to get 13 ranks in tumble, so fire resistance 10), Step of the Wind, Bolstering Voice
Level 2(1) - (another from the level 1 list)
Level 5(3) - Pearl of Black Doubt (can't find any others that sound useful)
Level 9(5) - Hearing the Air, Shifting Defense, Step of the Dancing Moth, Giant's Stance (seems really useful for unarmed damage)

The Glyphstone
2010-04-26, 01:00 PM
The Shadow Step/Shadow Blink line are excellent - teleportation as a move and eventually swift action goes a long way towards making up the mobility disadvantage.

Failing that, just buy a Wand of Expeditious Retreat and hand it to the party wizard - bam, you've got a 60ft. move speed.

DragoonWraith
2010-04-26, 01:17 PM
And honestly... move speed is not that important. It will come up, occasionally, but really it's pretty unusual.

Eldariel
2010-04-26, 02:11 PM
I assume the unarmed swordsage variant is the one mentioned in the adaptation section (drop light armor and gain monk unarmed progression). The only thing I'm not a huge fan of losing is the speed bonus from monks, having 60ft base movement speed at level 10 seemed really cool. Is that at all replicatable using magic items/feats? I know of the boots of striding and springing, but that's only +10ft (though I also want to get those for the bonus to jump checks). Are there any other items that give +speed that are useful and in the books listed?

Expeditious Retreat is +30ft though it doesn't exist in constant item form. Flight is base 60' (Phoenix Cloak/Wings of Flying for example) and Haste is +30' and comes from Boots of Speed for combat use. Note that swift action movement (Sudden Leap and Shadow Blink/Quicksilver Motion) and maneuvers combining movement with attacking (e.g. Pouncing Charge and Bounding Assault) mean you can move a lot more than normally each turn.

Note that if you gain Pounce from e.g. Barbarian 1 (Lion Spirit Totem variant from Complete Champion; loses Fast Movement, gains Pounce), you'll be able to full attack after Bounding Assault too, making it a great option to combine with Insightful Strike and Leading the Charge (through item, Martial Stance or Master of the Nine) and a fine way to start the battle.

Also makes for much more impressive Spring Attacking than the Monk; Bounding Assault from any position of up to double move, hit opponent in the face with a full attack with massive damage bonuses and then Quicksilver Motion or Shadow Blink away the way you came. That's very late though as it requires level 7 maneuvers (level 13).


As for the actual build I'm thinking right now of a 14/16/12/12/16/10 starting array, with the 2 +'s going into wis. Would it be better to drop the str points and use weapon finesse or is hanging on to decent str a good idea?

I suggest Weapon Finesse + Shadow Blade. Then max out Dexterity. This would allow you to go 14 Constitution, which is pretty key for a d8 melee character. Setting Sun means you can still use combat maneuvers if you so desire, as you can derive them off Dex.


Any suggestions for actual maneuvers? If I've got my math right I basically get 3 maneuvers from level 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 (giving up level 1 maneuvers at each even level to get the highest possible level). A lot of them look interesting (particularly stone vise and death mark) but are there any ones that I 'absolutely' need to make a good character?

Setting Sun is awesome for a martial artist feel; basically jiujitsu, judo and other throw/lock/grappling-based ones. It also has very Monkish things like Scorpion Parry. Tiger Claw is good for the feral feel and TWFing your Unarmed Strikes with a weapon or even just your unarmed strikes.

Shadow Hand has few nice Strikes, and rocks if you go Wisdom-focus (with Intuitive Attack and Insightful Strikes from Swordsage, that's possible), but mostly I'd just pick the stances to use with Shadow Blade.

If you want a Kung Fu Master-type character, taking up a bunch from all the schools is a good idea, and then having different "styles" in which you use certain types of maneuvers switching from style to style as you shift to accommodate your opposition. Cheesy but functional. Going Master of the Nine would be a borderline prerequisite that way.


For stances I'm a lot more restricted so I have a list of ones I was considering.
Level 1(1) - Flame's Blessing (I plan to get 13 ranks in tumble, so fire resistance 10), Step of the Wind, Bolstering Voice
Level 2(1) - (another from the level 1 list)
Level 5(3) - Pearl of Black Doubt (can't find any others that sound useful)
Level 9(5) - Hearing the Air, Shifting Defense, Step of the Dancing Moth, Giant's Stance (seems really useful for unarmed damage)

I'd pick Island of Blades and maybe Assassin's Stance along the way to use with Shadow Blade. Shifting Defense is very, very good. You get to move [b]before the attack which makes hitting you very, very hard. Add Robilar's Gambit + Combat Reflexes + Evasive Reflexes and profit. I'd pick Hunter's Sense early on; Hearing the Air isn't all that much better. Also, yeah... Lots of good options exist.

Binks
2010-04-26, 02:32 PM
Note that swift action movement (Sudden Leap and Shadow Blink/Quicksilver Motion) and maneuvers combining movement with attacking (e.g. Pouncing Charge and Bounding Assault) mean you can move a lot more than normally each turn.
Yeah, I've been noticing that. I especially like the one that lets you double move then attack like you'd charged, looks like movement won't be a problem, just moved to maneuvers and the like rather than a base bonus.

Spring attack looks really nice...but I'm fairly limited for feats unless I'm mistaken. Am I missing something or do I only have 5 feats? I really need improved unarmed strike, and snap kick looks pretty useful, so putting in spring attack would use up all my remaining feats.


I suggest Weapon Finesse + Shadow Blade. Then max out Dexterity. This would allow you to go 14 Constitution, which is pretty key for a d8 melee character. Setting Sun means you can still use combat maneuvers if you so desire, as you can derive them off Dex.
The only problem I see there is that I have to be in a shadow hand stance and using a shadow hand weapon, which unarmed isn't, and I was looking to use giant stance to buff my damage to a large sized monk equivalent.

Right now I'm looking at grabbing maneuvers from setting sun and stone dragon (seems to be good for dealing with powerful enemies) as the primary two schools.

Ozymandias9
2010-04-26, 02:37 PM
He doesn't need the books for psionics:

That's what he has physical access to. There's also a given list of what the DM has approved, and psionics aren't on it.

Divide by Zero
2010-04-26, 03:14 PM
I really need improved unarmed strike

Unarmed swordsage gets IUS automatically, so that frees up a slot.


The only problem I see there is that I have to be in a shadow hand stance and using a shadow hand weapon, which unarmed isn't

Er, yes it is? "This discipline’s preferred weapons are the dagger, sai, short sword, spiked chain, siangham, and unarmed strike."


and I was looking to use giant stance to buff my damage to a large sized monk equivalent.

There are other ways to get size increases, and damage dice usually aren't a huge deal especially as a ToB character.

Godskook
2010-04-26, 03:17 PM
If you're going unarmed swordsage, its practically required to pick up the following:

Weapon Finesse
Shadow Blade
Adaptive Style - Well, just generally good for swordsages, since you can now refresh all maneuvers as a full-round action.

With that load-out, you're now dual-ability dependant, on wisdom and dexterity. Pick two schools to be your 'attack' schools, one of should be Shadow Hand. Your Discipline Focus is best spent on Shadow Hand, due to the synergy between that and Shadow Blade. When you get the duplicates, select your other 'attack' school. Now pick a shadow hand stance that you want to depend on in combat. Assassin's Stance and Child of Shadow are typical, but there's other choices too. Now, spend all your stat-increasing abilities on dex/wis pumping(level ups, gear, etc), and go to town.

Generally, your ability score priorities are:

Dex/Con or Wis/Wis or Con/Int/Str/Cha, depending on your HP priorities.

Sir Giacomo
2010-04-26, 03:21 PM
Hi Binks,

unarmed Swordsage in case your DM is generous (e.g. gives you improved unarmed strike feat for free and lets you use monk damage enhancers like monk's belt for this swordsage) is a good idea. Note, though, that if you are new to 3.5 D&D, the mechanism of Tome of Battle with /per encounter maneuvers are a bit ... odd to learn, require a lot of bookkeeping and harmonise with other martial characters not using ToB.

Otherwise, if you still like to have that stunning/fast movement feel, try to go for a level 10 monk, or 6th-9th level monk/4th to 1st level swordsage.
The following things can greatly help you even with a DEX-focused build and weapon finesse:
- improved natural attack feat. A monk's class abilities means that this grades your unarmed damage up by one size. Highly useful.
- flying with boots of flying (16,000 gp), or somthing similar with some ToB items/maneuvers taken as feats (you could, for instance, go for monk 6 first and then unarmed swordsage 4 and get the higher-level maneuvers with stackable unarmed damage progression and up to 7th initiator level and thus 4th level manuevers - ask your DM). Remember: the monk's movement bonus, unlike that of the barbarian, is an enhancement bonus that gets applied to all movement modes. 10th level monk means 90ft flying speed. Also, you could then get the flyby attack feat from the MM for true wuxia feel - this would mean that you need not take the spring attack tree for those instances when you fly (you could alternatively get the cobra strike unearthed arcane alternate bonus feats path - but then you would not get stunning fist as a bonus feat without requirements).
- max stunning fist DC, with ability focus feat (+2 to stunning fist) and ki straps items (another +2 to stunning fist). Also you may wish to look at the PHB II alternate flurry ability that increases stunning fist by +2 and doubles the damage in a full-round attack. As a monk level 10, you get 10 stunning attempts/per day (2/round with the great rapid stunning feat from complete warrior). As a swordsage merely 2/day.

That's about it.

- Giacomo

lsfreak
2010-04-26, 03:33 PM
Spring attack looks really nice...
Looks are deceiving, which is what Eldariel was saying. Swordsages get Pouncing Charge, or can go Bounding Assault + Pounce (from one level of Lion Totem barbarian) to emulate something similar to spring attack, but unconditionally better.

Also, unless your DM houserules it, you can't use a strike on a Spring Attack. If you can, it gets better, but the heavy feat investment still probably isn't worth it.


Right now I'm looking at grabbing maneuvers from setting sun and stone dragon (seems to be good for dealing with powerful enemies) as the primary two schools.
Stone Dragon aren't that great, because they require you be on the ground. Past level 5, that's no longer a guarentee, and past level 10 it shouldn't be uncommon for you to be off the ground for a significant number of fights. If your DM waives that requirement, go for it. If not, I'd limit yourself to one punch-through-DR/hardness maneuver and put the rest into things more useful.

Pluto
2010-04-26, 03:38 PM
Otherwise, if you still like to have that stunning/fast movement feel, try to go for a level 10 monk, or 6th-9th level monk/4th to 1st level swordsage.
Why sacrifice that much from either class? Shadowsun Ninja's right there with the other PrC's.

Eldariel
2010-04-26, 03:41 PM
Spring attack looks really nice...but I'm fairly limited for feats unless I'm mistaken. Am I missing something or do I only have 5 feats? I really need improved unarmed strike, and snap kick looks pretty useful, so putting in spring attack would use up all my remaining feats.

I'm saying Spring Attack can be better done without having the actual feat, combining a few maneuvers instead. Also note that the variant gets the Unarmed Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#unarmedStrike) Monk Class Feature which includes Improved Unarmed Strike.


The only problem I see there is that I have to be in a shadow hand stance and using a shadow hand weapon, which unarmed isn't, and I was looking to use giant stance to buff my damage to a large sized monk equivalent.

Just pick Improved Natural Attack, Enlarge Person and so on. It's not really worth it, Giant Stance that is, as it can't buff you beyond Large. And Unarmed Strike is a Shadow Hand weapon.


Right now I'm looking at grabbing maneuvers from setting sun and stone dragon (seems to be good for dealing with powerful enemies) as the primary two schools.

Tiger Claw, definitely. Also, consider Diamond Mind. I love Diamond Mind; Moment of Alacrity, Quicksilver Motion, Bounding Assault, Save-maneuvers (Diamond Defense!), Stance of Alacrity, Hearing the Air, Stance of Clarity, Diamond Nightmare Blade, Greater Insightful Strike (Base damage?! SCREW BASE DAMAGE! I deal Concentrationx2 in damage and my concentration is pimp!), so I definitely suggest splicing some Diamond Mind in there too.

Stone Dragon isn't all that good due to the small clause of needing to be on the ground, but e.g. Mountain Hammer is what we in the business refer to as "can opener"; ignoring hardness = punch through anything. How do you think those martial artists break those piles of bricks? So definitely that, and consider Ancient Mountain Hammer and eventually Mountain Tombstone Strike (2d6 Con-damage! As HD goes up, that deals immense amounts of damage; even just 30 HD Dragon takes 210 average from the Con-damage alone). But...yeah, Tiger Claw and Diamond Mind are both really nice. And Concentration fits fluff for a Monk so Diamond Mind is just twice better as that makes the skill actually do something.

Binks
2010-04-26, 03:52 PM
Also note that the variant gets the Unarmed Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#unarmedStrike) Monk Class Feature which includes Improved Unarmed Strike.
Really? Can you direct me to an official ruling or something for that? It sounds entirely reasonable but if my GM asks I'd like to be able to point to something that shows it. Getting that feat for free would definitely help out.


Just pick Improved Natural Attack, Enlarge Person and so on. It's not really worth it, Giant Stance that is, as it can't buff you beyond Large. And Unarmed Strike is a Shadow Hand weapon.
Whoops, was looking at the wrong group for weapons. Is there any way to get enlarge person semi-permanently? And is Improved Natural attack allowed? I didn't think it would be since it's in the monster feat section...

Alright...dropping all but 1 of the stone dragon ones and focusing on shadow blade instead, I'm convinced :smalltongue:.

Flickerdart
2010-04-26, 03:55 PM
Really? Can you direct me to an official ruling or something for that? It sounds entirely reasonable but if my GM asks I'd like to be able to point to something that shows it. Getting that feat for free would definitely help out.

It's right in the ability. Monks get IUS not as a gift for being special boys and girls, but because of the Unarmed Strike class feature that the Unarmed variant Swordsage is explicitly stated to get.

Eldariel
2010-04-26, 03:59 PM
Really? Can you direct me to an official ruling or something for that? It sounds entirely reasonable but if my GM asks I'd like to be able to point to something that shows it. Getting that feat for free would definitely help out.

No, but I can quote stuff to best of my ability:

"ADAPTATION
The name “swordsage” naturally implies a character who carries a sword or weapon of some kind. However, a swordsage works very well as a supernatural martial artist of almost any school or origin. To create a monklike character with a tremendous array of fantastic moves and strikes, give the swordsage the monk’s unarmed strike progression and remove his light armor proficiency."

Monk's Unarmed Strike-class feature says the following:
"At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.

Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.

A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

A monk also deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown on Table: The Monk. The unarmed damage on Table: The Monk is for Medium monks. A Small monk deals less damage than the amount given there with her unarmed attacks, while a Large monk deals more damage; see Table: Small or Large Monk Unarmed Damage."

You could argue that "Unarmed Strike Progression" is no class feature and thus this adaptation does nothing, but that's just dumb.


Whoops, was looking at the wrong group for weapons. Is there any way to get enlarge person semi-permanently? And is Improved Natural attack allowed? I didn't think it would be since it's in the monster feat section...

Alright...dropping all but 1 of the stone dragon ones and focusing on shadow blade instead, I'm convinced :smalltongue:.

Improved Natural Attack is allowed by...well, rules, since Improved Natural Attack requires a Natural Attack and from Monk's Unarmed Strike:
"Unarmed Strike
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

There's also FAQ reply on this and Sage answer and gawd-knows-what (sorry, I don't want to spend the rest of the evening digging them all up), but really, the RAW is clear: it works. The real question is if people without the Unarmed Strike class feature qualify (there's been two divergent schools at WoTC on this), but that's not relevant here as you have the class feature.

lsfreak
2010-04-26, 03:59 PM
I know it's been explained, but the actual text:

To create a monklike character with a tremendous array of fantastic moves and strikes, give the swordsage the monk’s unarmed strike progression and remove his light armor proficiency.

Unarmed Strike
At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat.
You can't get much clearer than that. Also, do note that a swordsage's AC bonus applies only while armored - it is almost certainly an editing mistake, but since it says in light armor and the adaptation doesn't mention changing it, a RAW-stickler might have problems with it.

As for Improved Natural Attack, there's nothing preventing you from taking it. You meet all the prerequisites, as there is nothing stating it can only be taken my monsters.

EDIT: AAaaaand ninja'd.

Il_Vec
2010-04-26, 04:01 PM
Is there any way to get enlarge person semi-permanently? And is Improved Natural attack allowed? I didn't think it would be since it's in the monster feat section...

Semi-permanently yes, and Permanently with the Permanency spell.
And you can get INA, unless your DM objects of course, but you don't need to be a monster to get it. And if you need to be a monster, be a dwarf. They are in the monter manual, page 91.

edit: Double ninja'ed.

The Cat Goddess
2010-04-26, 04:02 PM
Fist of the Forest (Complete Champion) is another great PrC for Monk/Unarmed types. Getting Con Bonus to AC added to Wis Bonus (and, of course, Dex Bonus) is very nice... not to mention making your hands magic and increasing the damage.

Flickerdart
2010-04-26, 04:05 PM
Also remember that by RAW the Monk is not proficient with Unarmed Strikes, while the Swordsage is. In the case that your DM is generous, they may grant it to you for free, but RAW you have to take the feat or eat -4 to attack. :smalltongue:

Eldariel
2010-04-26, 04:08 PM
And if you want more on the Improved Natural Attack:
Rules of the Game-article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a)
Main 3.5 FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a)

If you're too lazy to check the links...
Rules of the Game:

Monk Unarmed Strike Class Feature

The monk class offers a potent subcategory of unarmed attack. The class provides Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, but the monk class offers some additional benefits for when fighting without weapons:


A monk's unarmed strikes can be treated as either manufactured or natural weapons when applying spells or effects that enhance either manufactured or natural weapons. For example, either a magic weapon spell or a magic fang spell can enhance a monk's unarmed attacks.


This allows a monk access to all manner of weapon enhancements for her unarmed strikes. For example, a monk can use the Improved Natural Attack feat to increase her unarmed strike damage.

FAQ:

Can a monk take Improved Natural Attack (MM 304) to improve his unarmed strike?
Yes. As stated on page 41 of the PH, a monk’s unarmed strike “is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either” which includes feats such as Improved Natural Attack.

Barring multiclassing, the earliest a monk could take this feat would be at 6th level (due to the base attack bonus prerequisite), at which point her unarmed strike damage would improve from 1d8 to 2d6 (which represents an average increase of +2.5 points of damage). The same monk at 20th level would deal 4d8 points of damage with her unarmed strike.


As for Enlarge, it's a legal target for Permanency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm) (though as that has permanent costs, it would suck to have it Dispelled and lose that money forever). Also, it's a 10 min/level spell so on level 12, Extending it thrice in level 2 slots gets you a 12 hour coverage. Just ask your Wizard for this modest investment; buy him Pearls of Power IIs if he asks for it (those are like 12000 total and stronger than free slots due to being able to resume any spent spell thus basically giving him access to all his prepared spells on that level instead of just an extra slot).

Binks
2010-04-26, 09:43 PM
Thanks everyone. I think I have the basic build worked out, and it looks pretty darn cool. You guys were certainly correct, every one of the monk specials I liked is doable with this swordsage build, with better attack, damage and other features.

Just three things I'm really missing at this point. I ended up rolling fairly low for health, so even with a 14 con my hp seems a bit low for my liking (~50), and my AC is only 23 (even with bracers of armor and good wis/dex). And I miss the 'immune to poison' part of a monk (though that wasn't until level 11 anyways) and can't seem to spot a way to get it back. So basically:

1. Any suggestions for improving my AC or is a 23 fine for level 10? I have the stance that gives me concealment if I move, and that'll probably be my default stance, with the others being used in special cases but I still feel like he's a bit fragile for a melee character, even one that can bolt in and out of battle via the various effects.
2. What would be the cheapest way of getting immunity to poison if it's possible at level 10? It probably won't come up but I'd really like to have it, if for no other reason than that it fits the concept, and I do only have a fort of 8, making poison a bit threatening. Periapt won't work since that slot's already taken (and I'm not obsessed nearly enough with the idea to consider immunity to poison to be worth 27Kgp)
3. What's the simplest way for me to either gain temp hp in battle or heal myself, at least a little. The party will have a healer, but I don't want to end up being a drain on him so I'd like to be able to at least heal some minor damage to myself.

I have little money left at this point but I could easily drop some items down to a lower level to get a couple thousand gp back, just trying to judge if any of these things are worth going for.

Again, thanks for all the help.

The Cat Goddess
2010-04-26, 10:01 PM
Instead of a Ring of Protection, get a Ghost Shroud. Provides +1 Deflection AC and Ghost Touch to all forms of attack. As MIC indicates, increasing the Deflection would cost the same as increasing the Deflection on a Ring.

As I mentioned, Fist of the Forest (only adds +2 AC right now, but increases to Con would increase AC).

Edit: The BattleDancer base class gives Cha as a Dodge Bonus to AC... very sweet. Must be Chaotic aligned though.

Edit #2: The Ghost Shroud is a shirt, in the Magic Item Compendium.

Binks
2010-04-26, 10:05 PM
Instead of a Ring of Protection, get a Ghost Shroud. Provides +1 Deflection AC and Ghost Touch to all forms of attack.
What books is Ghost Shroud from? Is it a ring?

Il_Vec
2010-04-26, 10:09 PM
At your level, your AC 23 will do just fine; it is the low health that will be a problem. And really, boosting HP is cheaper than boosting CA.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-04-26, 10:10 PM
What books is Ghost Shroud from? Is it a ring?

Magic item compendium, takes the body slot, while the deflection bonus is nice (touch AC always is) whay I like the most is that it les ALL your attacks affect incorporeal foes, basically permanent ghost touch on your weapons. saves money on the weapon. and also is cheap 5000 GO

Eldariel
2010-04-26, 10:20 PM
1. Any suggestions for improving my AC or is a 23 fine for level 10? I have the stance that gives me concealment if I move, and that'll probably be my default stance, with the others being used in special cases but I still feel like he's a bit fragile for a melee character, even one that can bolt in and out of battle via the various effects.

All your level-ups in Dex and +2 Dex and +2 Wis items should end up with you at 20+ Dex and 18 Wis. This gives you 19 AC. Then Ring of Protection +1, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Bracers of Armor +4 (or Pearl of Power I for party mage to cast Mage Armor on you daily) & eventually Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone would get you AC 26.

If you happen you have two levels of Barbarian for Uncanny Dodge, you could also maintain a defensive fighting stance outside combat (that is, take standard action to fight defensively each "round" thus effectively moving at half-speed, but maintaining Total Defense AC bonus which with Tumble and base is something like +6).


2. What would be the cheapest way of getting immunity to poison if it's possible at level 10? It probably won't come up but I'd really like to have it, if for no other reason than that it fits the concept, and I do only have a fort of 8, making poison a bit threatening.

You should consider the Mind over Body counter from Diamond Mind. It's not immunity per ce, but if your Concentration is maxed, it's pretty damn good and doesn't autofail on 1. Get some item (Tunic of Steady Spellcasting [MiC] is 2500gp for +5 to all Concentration - priced like all skill-boosters at 2.5k for +5; the description even says "despite the name" - it's only named such due to that being the most common use. Third Eye Concentrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#concentrate) is the only SRD item for that, at the usual 10k for +10) to provide bonus to Concentration and never fail your Fort-saves again.

Other than that, there's a horribly overpriced Periapt of Proof against Poison (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#periaptofProofagainstPoison), which is affordable in the high teens at the earliest. But honestly, high Concentration-check + Mind over Body is what you want and matches the fluff of "meditation giving you control over your immune system to remove the toxin from your body"; to boot, it works against all other Fort-saves and is something you frankly want anyways.


3. What's the simplest way for me to either gain temp hp in battle or heal myself, at least a little. The party will have a healer, but I don't want to end up being a drain on him so I'd like to be able to at least heal some minor damage to myself.

Healing Belt [MiC] is a good self-healing tool. Getting simple +2 Con item is a good idea. Eventually, Necklace of Natural Attacks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a) with some self-healing enhancement is what you want (Necklace is a non-overpriced version of Amulet of Mighty Fists, and can hold weapon enhancements). Wrathful Healing is a particularly good one, but I don't remember many recent printings for it. Best I can remember is it was in Enemies & Allies, which is an ancient 3.0 book. It's a +3 ability that heals the wielder for ½ the damage dealt. Superb, and takes care of all your healing needs.

There's also some ability that heals you for ½ your base damage die on each hit which I'm forgetting right now (good for you since UA damage dice grow), and then there's Bodyfeeder in Magic Item Compendium that's +3 and only triggers on criticals, granting Temporary HP instead. Amulet of Tears [MiC] grants you 12 Temporary HP 3 times per day for 10 mins...decent if you can anticipate encounters, but waste of action in the beginning of one. At that point, you should be smacking opponent senseless already.

The Glyphstone
2010-04-26, 10:23 PM
What is you neck slot filled with? The Magic Item Compendium has rules for adding properties to items - if you're wearing an Amulet of Natural Armor or Periapt of Wisdom, you can add the + that it gives you into a Periapt of Proof against Poison without the 50% markup.

Binks
2010-04-26, 10:40 PM
Magic item compendium
I don't think that book's on the allowed book list, unless it's also printed somewhere else.


(or Pearl of Power I for party mage to cast Mage Armor on you daily)
Unfortunately this won't work as pearl seems to only apply to classes that prepare spells. There aren't any wizards in this campaign (dm rule) and sorcerers (the other ones with mage armor) don't prepare, so while this would be really nice it doesn't look like it'll work.


You should consider the Mind over Body counter from Diamond Mind.
Good point, definitely going with that, poison should hopefully be rare enough that just having that maneuver makes me at least highly resistant to it.


Healing Belt [MiC] is a good self-healing tool.
Is that printed elsewhere? MiC doesn't appear to be on the allowed list (unless it also has another name or something).


Getting simple +2 Con item is a good idea.
Is the con bonus retroactive for hp? I'd assume so, but I know of some systems where they're not. Otherwise might have to debate with my GM what level I picked this up at.


Eventually, Necklace of Natural Attacks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a) with some self-healing enhancement is what you want.
Let me make sure I have the rules for that item correct, it grants a +1 enhancement bonus on natural attacks (costing 2600gp for my character since he has just one natural attack, his fists) and can have a weapon enhancement added? Sounds perfect...though it would have to replace the Periapt of wisdom which is really useful...Are there any self-healing enhancements outside of MiC? If not then it might still be useful just to get a weapon ability to my attacks...though I'd have to ask the GM since it's outside the list of allowed books.


What is you neck slot filled with? The Magic Item Compendium has rules for adding properties to items - if you're wearing an Amulet of Natural Armor or Periapt of Wisdom, you can add the + that it gives you into a Periapt of Proof against Poison without the 50% markup.
Periapt of wisdom. Don't have access to the MiC (unless, again, it has another name or is just assumed or something).

Il_Vec
2010-04-26, 10:46 PM
Yes, the bonus hit points from higher CON are retroative. No, the bonus skills points for Int are not. Go figure.

Eldariel
2010-04-26, 10:50 PM
Unfortunately this won't work as pearl seems to only apply to classes that prepare spells. There aren't any wizards in this campaign (dm rule) and sorcerers (the other ones with mage armor) don't prepare, so while this would be really nice it doesn't look like it'll work.

Sorcerer has so many level 1 slots by this point that he shouldn't even care, and he prolly wants the spell anyways as there aren't all that many useful level 1s by this point. Toss a party Sorcerer a bunch of whatever or even coin (everyone loves coin) for Mage Armors.


Good point, definitely going with that, poison should hopefully be rare enough that just having that maneuver makes me at least highly resistant to it.

Make no mistake, maxed Concentration with even an item boosting it is just...yeah, it'll be enough.


Is that printed elsewhere? MiC doesn't appear to be on the allowed list (unless it also has another name or something).

Unfortunately not. It's one very key item for making martial types more self-sufficient. You could gain some healing ability from Shadow Sun Ninja or Master of the Nine (Iron Heart has Iron Heart Endurance and Devoted Spirit has Martial Spirit and a bunch of healing maneuvers), but Swordsage itself has no built-in constant healing, so you're down to items.


Is the con bonus retroactive for hp? I'd assume so, but I know of some systems where they're not. Otherwise might have to debate with my GM what level I picked this up at.

Yes. Everything affects everything retroactively except Int to skillpoints. Int is the odd one out; everything else adds their benefits to everything they affect regardless of when you get it.


Let me make sure I have the rules for that item correct, it grants a +1 enhancement bonus on natural attacks (costing 2600gp for my character since he has just one natural attack, his fists) and can have a weapon enhancement added? Sounds perfect...though it would have to replace the Periapt of wisdom which is really useful...Are there any self-healing enhancements outside of MiC? If not then it might still be useful just to get a weapon ability to my attacks...

You got it correctly; it's basically the same as a magic weapon with base cost of 600 (all the enhancements cost the same as for a magic weapon). Also, DMG has rules for combining magic items (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#addingNewAbilities); basically, you just pay 1.5* the price of the ability to add it to an existing item of the same slot (so you could have Necklace of Natural Attacks with +2 Wis & Con added). Magic Item Compendium expands upon this by making "common, necessary abilities" like Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha-boosts, AC boosts, save boosts and skill boosts (basically, standard boosts to any one thing) are addable without extra charge.

It's a very reasonable, and a borderline must, rule and worth at least asking about the DM for; and if you don't get it, just know that you probably will use all your body slots on simple AC/Attack/Save/Stat buffs. Another simple solution is asking to move some item slots around; e.g. Wisdom-boost makes even more sense as a Circlet than it does as an Amulet. Vest of Wisdom is just as sensible as Periapt of Wisdom (close to the heart, etc.), Con-bonus could e.g. reside in a Vest or a Belt and so on. Ioun Stones can give +2 to any stat also, but they come at a double cost for not taking body slots.

Binks
2010-04-26, 10:51 PM
Yes, the bonus hit points from higher CON are retroative. No, the bonus skills points for Int are not. Go figure.

That's what it was. Well then I guess a +con item might be a good choice, basically +10hp per +2 bonus...time to go shopping again :P.