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Mr. Wong Burger
2010-04-26, 05:29 PM
I'm new to posting on this forum (well, new to forum posting in general) so I hope I'm in the right spot for this question. It comes in several parts so I hope I don't cause a brain overload. I was enthralled with Person Man's "Flaming Homer" build, and equally enjoyed the variant "King of Pong" posted by Darrin. I was building from the "King of Pong" when I was overcome with the urge to hurl my Allies instead of my enemies.

1) What happens when I throw an ally instead of an enemy?


I assume he incurs attacks of opportunity when leaving threatened squares as normal. Would he be able to make an attack when he hits an enemy (like if he readied an action specifically for being thrown)?

2) If I threw an ally, would he take damage from the dungeon crasher feat (assuming he hits a creature that is whatever size the DM would need it to be to cause damage).


This would obviously rule out the dungeon crasher feat for this particular character.

3) If the thrown ally were able to make an attack upon slamming into the monster, would he be allowed any other actions?


With the Knockback feat combined with the Bloodstorm Blade's Thunderous Throw feat, would the ally be able to make an AoO?

4) If I miss, what happens to the ally?


Following the rules for thrown weapons, would he simply land in the designated square or would he be rendered prone? What if he lands in an occupied square?

I hope I've asked these questions clearly enough. I did read over the Fling Ally feat, and it was incredibly sub par for what the picture showed as well as what I expected. Thanks in advance for any insight you guys can offer.

Darrin
2010-04-26, 10:22 PM
1) What happens when I throw an ally instead of an enemy?


I assume he incurs attacks of opportunity when leaving threatened squares as normal. Would he be able to make an attack when he hits an enemy (like if he readied an action specifically for being thrown)?


Technically, if you pick up a creature and throw it as a projectile weapon, it doesn't take any damage. I had to jump through several hoops (mostly Warmind's Sweeping Strike) to get King of Pong to actually do any damage to the projectile once the initial Improved Grab attack has resolved.

For leaving threatened squares, yeah, that would probably provoke an AoO. However, you can only incur one AoO per type of qualifying activity per enemy. If your projectile moved through three squares threatened by an opponent, he'd only get one AoO for leaving a threatened square, even if that opponent had Combat Reflexes and high enough Dex for multiple AoOs. The projectile would have to do some other activity (such as casting a spell or a ranged attack) to incur another AoO from the same opponent.

As far as readying an action... that could be tricky, depending on how you worded the triggering condition. It's not really clear in the rules if you can use a readied action to interrupt another action that's already started. The rules for readying actions specify that the readied action takes place *before* the action that triggered it. If you use "thrown into opponent" as a trigger condition, then you might be able to say you get your readied action before you hit the target while you're occupying the square next to him. If you use "move away from an opponent I've been thrown into", then you'd get your readied action just as you were leaving. The head-scratchy part is if this is allowed during the middle of King of Pong's full attack action... but I don't see anything glaringly against it in the rules, and the text for readying an action is somewhat vague about how you define the triggering conditions.

Another concern would be establishing that you can attack in mid-flight... you're not standing on anything solid and are essentially in freefall, so there's an argument your character would be considered flat-footed and/or prone. Neither of those conditions specifically prevent you from attacking, though, so at worst you probably just need to argue with the DM over what penalties should apply.

That's assuming King of Pong is using Lightning Ricochet to return you to his hands for another throw. If you're just using a Hulking Hurler to throw you at an opponent once, you presumably land next to your opponent and fall prone in an adjacent square. With a high enough Tumble check or a skill trick, you can then stand as a free action and then take your actions (readied or otherwise) as normal.




2) If I threw an ally, would he take damage from the dungeon crasher feat (assuming he hits a creature that is whatever size the DM would need it to be to cause damage).


This would obviously rule out the dungeon crasher feat for this particular character.


You do not get an attack (and thus a bull rush attempt) on the projectile unless you're using Sweeping Strike to attack all targets in your chosen squares. If you're using King of Pong, I believe the Knockback feat is optional... you can choose not to make a bull rush attempt on your ally, and still bull rush the target.



3) If the thrown ally were able to make an attack upon slamming into the monster, would he be allowed any other actions?


It depends... if the ally were attacking via a readied action, then all he gets is whatever action he specified as part of the readying (although he might be able to add an immediate or a free action in there somewhere). If he was just thrown and landed in the square next to the target, then he'd probably be prone but would get his full complement of actions whenever his initiative count came up again.




With the Knockback feat combined with the Bloodstorm Blade's Thunderous Throw feat, would the ally be able to make an AoO?


Not sure how Knockback or Thunderous Throw would enter into it much... I think you'd have to establish if your ally threatens the squares around him while he's flying through the air. On one hand, you could say he's essentially in freefall and has nothing solid to stand on, and might be considered flat-footed. One the other hand, if you treat the ally as a flying creature (with a mechanically induced temporary fly speed, albeit maneuverability = none), yeah, he'd still threaten. Whether he is adjacent to the target long enough to make an AoO... that's more of a DM judgement call.

If the target were bull-rushed out of one of your ally's threatened squares while he was adjacent to him... then yeah, I think that's an AoO. If the DM determines that you fly back to King of Pong's hands before you can make an AoO... make sure your ally has a lot of reach, Thicket of Blades, etc.



4) If I miss, what happens to the ally?


Following the rules for thrown weapons, would he simply land in the designated square or would he be rendered prone? What if he lands in an occupied square?


PHB p. 158 has a diagram for determining where a thrown weapon lands, but it's not clear if this applies only to grenade-like/splash weapons or all thrown weapons. The diagram seems to imply all thrown weapons, but I don't see anything in the text that explicitly states this.

...and I'm trying to find a rule that says any character that ends a fall in a square winds up prone, but I can't find it. I know the various Mighty Throw maneuvers in ToB specifies prone, but I can't find anything that says prone is a direct result from falling. So by RAW I guess they automatically land on their feet... odd. Common sense says they should be prone or have one hellacious Balance check DC to remain standing.

As for landing in an occupied square... which could happen with the scatter diagram vs. larger-than-medium opponent, I'd probably treat that as a failed bull rush and move the ally back to the last legal square and drop them prone there.

Mr. Wong Burger
2010-04-28, 01:59 PM
This was immensely helpful Darrin, thanks for your reply. I apologize for the confusion regarding Knockback,Thunderous Throw, and the Ally's AoO; I misunderstood Knockback as pushing the defender back as a result of the attack, not as a result of the free Bullrush Knockback gives you.

As for the other questions, you've cleared up a lot of confusion on the part of myself and my relatively new DM.

Initially, I got wrapped around possibly throwing my friend, allowing him to make an attack upon impact (if he had enough attacks left in a "full round attack" and didn't do anything prior to the throw to prohibit him from making said full round attack), having him return to me (without using knockback), and repeating using my remaining attacks (thereby allowing him to use his remaining attacks). It was pretty difficult for us to discern rules that would allow or prohibit that and I think I got too ambitious with regards to what a character can do in 6 seconds.

Again, thank you your insight, it has helped greatly.

Mr. Wong Burger
2010-04-29, 12:53 AM
Another quick question if I still have your attention:

Does the "Powerful Build" increase carrying capacity by one size?

I read through a couple of threads that couldn't come to an undisputed conclusion. I assume it's one of those gray areas since it doesn't exactly exclude it, nor does it include it.

AslanCross
2010-04-29, 05:54 AM
Powerful Build only allows you to carry large weapons and gives you bonuses on combat maneuvers (Bull rush, trip, etc) when it's beneficial. It doesn't increase your carrying capacity.

Btw, another way to throw allies is to load up your party tank with weapons and have the psion throw him using Telekinetic Thrust. Especially useful if the tank is a dwarf (throwing him gets him to places faster.) :D

Kaiyanwang
2010-04-29, 06:57 AM
Btw, another way to throw allies is to load up your party tank with weapons and have the psion throw him using Telekinetic Thrust. Especially useful if the tank is a dwarf (throwing him gets him to places faster.) :D

Low center of mass FTW!

Person_Man
2010-04-29, 09:39 AM
You should also know that Races of Stone has a feat called Fling Ally and Fling Enemy that lay out the rules for doing so. They're basically pointless though, because it's a Standard Action to do, you can't throw your Ally or Enemy very far, and the subject that is thrown takes no damage. I would just follow Darrin's advice and talk to your DM about it.

Also, there's nothing stopping you from just refluffing the Knockback + Shocktrooper combo to be throwing someone. Mechanically it accomplishes what you want - it moves somebody towards or into something else as an attack action, does massive damage if you move them into a wall or solid object, and Trips them if you move them into another enemy. Against enemies you really don't need to do much else. And for an ally you could ask them to take the Underfoot Combat feat so that they can move into enemy's squares without provoking AoO.