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View Full Version : Defeating casters without being one.



Il_Vec
2010-04-26, 08:16 PM
How would you make a character based around defeating arcane and divine alike, without psionics, arcane or divine casting, shadowcasting, truenaming, UMD or any other tatic that involves mostly simulating casters abilities?

Touchy
2010-04-26, 08:20 PM
Assuming player casters("God" or blasters?) or NPCs.

No one should be a big enough jerk to play an optimized wizard NPC.

Mongoose87
2010-04-26, 08:20 PM
Ubercharger with pimped out initiative. Probably Raptoran, for flight.

Prodan
2010-04-26, 08:21 PM
ToB classes? Binding? Incarnum? Assassin Death Attack?

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-04-26, 08:21 PM
Your best bet would be some sort of hide/move silent optimization and attacking without the caster being able to find you. Even then the caster could simply escape, so you'd have to have some way of preventing him from doing so (such as with items that replicate certain spells that we cannot use). At lower levels a charger can one-shot a caster type if he's lucky.

To be honest, by the high levels the game design expects you to have magic items that replicate spell effects. Why bar them?

Lin Bayaseda
2010-04-26, 08:22 PM
With casters, the main challenge is actually getting there - getting to melee them. If you can already get into melee, and win initiative, try poison. Most of them have a poor FOR save.

Prodan
2010-04-26, 08:23 PM
Clerics and Druids have good fort saves, Wizards can boost theirs, and Sorcerers get Ruin Delver's Fortune.

sofawall
2010-04-26, 08:27 PM
Ubercharger with pimped out initiative. Probably Raptoran, for flight.

The downside is, optimized wizards at high levels go first, full stop. Second, if you kill the wizard, it's not really him. It's an Astral Projection. Good luck getting to his personal demiplane (made with Genesis) without emulating magic.

Il_Vec
2010-04-26, 08:30 PM
To be honest, by the high levels the game design expects you to have magic items that replicate spell effects. Why bar them?

To prevend characters that only use UMD to solve their problems... Of course some portion of the WBL should go to items, and most do replicate spells. Just, avoid being a "item-caster"

What do you giants think of ranged tatics, are they viable?

The Rabbler
2010-04-26, 08:32 PM
The downside is, optimized wizards at high levels go first, full stop. Second, if you kill the wizard, it's not really him. It's an Astral Projection. Good luck getting to his personal demiplane (made with Genesis) without emulating magic.

I believe this is about NPC wizards; judging by Il_Vec's recent threads. NPC wizards won't be optimized (unless you really piss off your DM) and they shouldn't be all that hard to get to.

as for killing them, I'd go with something from ToB (probably warblade), grabbing Iron Heart Surge (by feat if need be), and hitting them very, very hard

EDIT: to avoid double post:


To prevend characters that only use UMD to solve their problems... Of course some portion of the WBL should go to items, and most do replicate spells. Just, avoid being a "item-caster"

What do you giants think of ranged tatics, are they viable?

you can get some nice ranged stuff going, but the builds are usually complicated and hard to get very powerful.

if you don't mind casting all that much, you could go cleric 1 (for travel domain exclusively)/scout 4/ranger 15 with swift hunter. this is a pretty simple build that nets you full skirmish and ranger spells. the ranger spells from spell compendium are the only worthwhile ones aside from a few staples from the PHB. this is a very mobile build with high damage potential, but it requires spells to get to where it could be.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-04-26, 08:39 PM
To prevend characters that only use UMD to solve their problems... Of course some portion of the WBL should go to items, and most do replicate spells. Just, avoid being a "item-caster"

What do you giants think of ranged tatics, are they viable?Well, it would be easier to get that vaunted surprise round from a range. Afterward you have to deal with wind wall, and as always, the myriad ways a caster can simply run away.

Wait, you said "defeating casters." I suppose making them leave counts as defeating them... In that case you just have to deal with the wizards' (generally illusory) defenses in some way.

sofawall
2010-04-26, 08:40 PM
Il_Vec's recent threads.

After looking at it, how is this really different from the other one?

SolkaTruesilver
2010-04-26, 08:41 PM
Something that resist all divination spell, like a Skulk or a Deep Gnome, with boosted nondetection.

Have some sort of antimagic poison. The moment you hit him, he'll have a lot of disrupted spellcasting.

It's D&D. It's a RPG, not a video game. So you can create new things, and you aren't limited by what the book says. Ask the GM if things might be possible like the one I just told you.

As stated earlier, I think stealth is your best option.

The Rabbler
2010-04-26, 08:41 PM
After looking at it, how is this really different from the other one?

I think the other one was looking for builds while this one is looking for general ideas.

that or the other one stopped getting replies.

Pluto
2010-04-26, 08:47 PM
Play an aristocrat? Use your immense political sway to get somebody else to squash them for you?




As far as a build, a Swift Hunter with Warblade dips (for IHS, Diamond Mind counters and a recovery mechanic for Martial Studied Shadow X maneuvers) would probably be the best bet. And even it's going to have a hard time. Stealth skills are going to be important.

For feats, Favored Enemy Arcanists + Pierce Magical Concealment might give you a chance.

With LA buyoff, ToM's Dark Template wouldn't be misplaced. Speed and HiPS - even the extraordinary version - may help considerably.

The Shadowmind
2010-04-26, 08:50 PM
To prevend characters that only
What do you giants think of ranged tatics, are they viable?

If you are using siege weaponry, (it bypasses wind wall).

The energy bow is a really nice bow, pricey though, 2d6 force arrows, and powershot.

Mongoose87
2010-04-26, 08:51 PM
I have a new idea: Use a Jumplomancer to enter their tower's window and wow them into fanaticism.

Pluto
2010-04-26, 08:53 PM
Also:

It's D&D. It's a RPG, not a video game. So you can create new things, and you aren't limited by what the book says.
This this this this this

I assume you're asking from the book because that's usually what people talk about here. But if I were trying to do this in one of my games, I would just homebrew a class for this.

rockdeworld
2010-04-26, 09:03 PM
^: Would "immune to magic" be a viable class feature (providing something along the lines of infinite saving throws + mettle + evasion + infinite SR)?

sambo.
2010-04-26, 09:05 PM
some souped up Drow sleepyjus could do the trick.

Prodan
2010-04-26, 09:05 PM
^: Would "immune to magic" be a viable class feature (providing something along the lines of infinite saving throws + mettle + evasion + infinite SR)?

The mithral golem is immune to magic. Unfortunately, it's not immune to being crushed by large rocks moved by magic.

Eldariel
2010-04-26, 09:11 PM
As far as a build, a Swift Hunter with Warblade dips (for IHS, Diamond Mind counters and a recovery mechanic for Martial Studied Shadow X maneuvers) would probably be the best bet. And even it's going to have a hard time. Stealth skills are going to be important.

You really, really want HiPS. I mean really.


For feats, Favored Enemy Arcanists + Pierce Magical Concealment might give you a chance.

FE: Arcanists doesn't actually do anything since when you're hitting, you're winning. It's getting to the Hitting-part that's the issue.

Frankly, I prefer the Eternal Blade-build 'cause you can still (just barely) max Hide, Move Silently & Spot (well, much easier if you pick Able Learner on e.g. Half-Elf or Half-Drow basis) due to the immense damage at range generally meaning if you ever get a full attack off from any position, or get a standard attack off in melee, or so on, you'll win and 'cause on 20, you'll gain your own variation of Celerity and still maintain solid saves aside from Will for which you've got maneuvers & Mind Blank, and solid Touch AC when you so desire.

You'll miss out on HiPS without Dark, which is unfortunate, but you gain ability to act at immense range and tons of versatility along with some actual action economy rapage which is very key and very hard to acquire in a non-caster shell. Get a sufficiently magical bow (+1 Seeking Splitting Force is fairly good) with Phasing Arrows and find some way to locate incorporeal opponents (Invisibility & al. shouldn't really bother you anymore at this point with the Spot-checks to beat 'em, various ToB and magical tools to negate 'em and so on - getting Spot or True Seeing may be a worthwhile endeavor) and you may have a shot. But without WBL, you're still as ****ed as everyone else.


As others have said, classes with supernatural abilities are naturally better for this; Binder, Factotum (when using spells), Psychic Warrior, Slayer, Swiftblade, Ruby Knight Vindicator, Druidzilla and Clericzilla are all martial characters that, in approximately order of competence, present a group of builds capable of taking the fight to a caster without magic items or the like.

Though honestly, the above character is quite competent with just a Bow of Legacy (yes, you really need Legacy Weapon to get a bunch of necessary spells like See Invisibility, Cunning, Moment of Prescience, Mindblank and so on when working without magic items). For a purely Ex character, he's the best I can come up with (may be worthwhile to dip Cragtop Archer just for increased range of vision; so hard to find distant targets without magic); I feel Swift Hunter's major failing is the inability to act efficiently at major range making it quite hard to actually get a relevant attack off on a caster you want dead.

Il_Vec
2010-04-26, 09:12 PM
The other thread didn't stop getting answers, but it is about getting me a melee build to work in the campaign i'm playing on... This one is about general ideas for all campaigns, using different methods.

DementedFellow
2010-04-26, 09:14 PM
A well-built truenamer could do it. Emphasis on well-built.

Truenamers can do their truenaming while silence and can respell a dispelled spell. Fun times.

SolkaTruesilver
2010-04-26, 09:18 PM
The mithral golem is immune to magic. Unfortunately, it's not immune to being crushed by large rocks moved by magic.

No, but putting up at will Feather Fall might makes it immune.

Eldariel
2010-04-26, 09:23 PM
Something I forgot to mention, race-based abilities can help. But I was specifically focusing on class-based abilities there; using race with natural magic or stuff like natural flight and burrow-speeds feels kinda like cheating since I always felt like mage killing through mundane means should be possible for all races, and thus be based on class-based abilities. Using races makes things a bit better (though not "good" by any stretch of imagination), but at least to me feels like a copout.

Pluto
2010-04-26, 09:41 PM
^: Would "immune to magic" be a viable class feature (providing something along the lines of infinite saving throws + mettle + evasion + infinite SR)?

It would probably hurt more than it would help. Enemy casters could still use shenanigans like solid fog or party-member possession or dropping large objects on you or flying into the air and shooting stuff. And allied casters wouldn't be able to heal or use things like Freedom of Movement or Polymorph to help the character.

I'd rather see something like a limitless and effective ability to reflect and redirect magic with a sword. Or to silence casters with a harpoon. Or to un-magic ongoing effects by beating the caster up a little bit.

But yeah. Things like divinations, illusions, enchantments and observation from other planes probably need to be outright nixed by class abilities. Those could be disastrous.

Zaq
2010-04-26, 10:17 PM
A well-built truenamer could do it. Emphasis on well-built.

Truenamers can do their truenaming while silence and can respell a dispelled spell. Fun times.

Yes, they can.

Unfortunately, this ability that you're using in a silence spell probably won't actually do anything, especially against a wizzy. Immobilizing or slowing a wizard doesn't do much, a few d6s of damage are a waste of time... removing their ability to fly might work against lightly-optimized foes, but not on ones with, say, contingency... just about the only thing that a truenamer can do against a wizard is dispel the wizard's highest-level buff, no matter how high the caster level is (mmm, delicious terrible wording... wait, it's not delicious, it's just emblematic of the terribly-written truenamer chapter. My bad). Or, I guess, ready an action to restore one of their ill-fated mage-slaying buddy's buffs after the wizard nixes them all.

Key point to remember, folks: Just because you can make your Truespeak roll high does not mean that your Truenamer can still actually do anything. There's more wrong with the Truenamer than just the insanely stupid skill mechanic.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-04-26, 10:18 PM
With casters, the main challenge is actually getting there - getting to melee them.

Unless the caster is a druid, in which case the main challenge is getting away there. :smallwink:

DementedFellow
2010-04-26, 10:31 PM
Yes, they can.

Unfortunately, this ability that you're using in a silence spell probably won't actually do anything, especially against a wizzy. Immobilizing or slowing a wizard doesn't do much, a few d6s of damage are a waste of time... removing their ability to fly might work against lightly-optimized foes, but not on ones with, say, contingency... just about the only thing that a truenamer can do against a wizard is dispel the wizard's highest-level buff, no matter how high the caster level is (mmm, delicious terrible wording... wait, it's not delicious, it's just emblematic of the terribly-written truenamer chapter. My bad). Or, I guess, ready an action to restore one of their ill-fated mage-slaying buddy's buffs after the wizard nixes them all.

Key point to remember, folks: Just because you can make your Truespeak roll high does not mean that your Truenamer can still actually do anything. There's more wrong with the Truenamer than just the insanely stupid skill mechanic.

I also misread the OP and feel foolish for my Truenamer comment now. :smallredface:

Zaq
2010-04-26, 10:33 PM
I also misread the OP and feel foolish for my Truenamer comment now. :smallredface:

Don't worry. Everyone feels foolish after talking about the Truenamer. (I should know; I've done it rather a bit.)

Il_Vec
2010-04-26, 10:57 PM
Don't worry. Everyone feels foolish after talking about the Truenamer. (I should know; I've done it rather a bit.)

I've read the entire Thread. It's very inspiring. Makes me want to play a non-talashatora Monk. Just to see how bad it reallys is.

And for clarification on the thread's point: It's really easy, when someone says, "Casters are really hard to defeat!", to answer: "Then play a caster!", or "Play a UMD-based character who can do everything casters can do!"... I wanted to see what people would buid without that "easy" tools...

Prodan
2010-04-26, 11:04 PM
I've read the entire Thread. It's very inspiring. Makes me want to play a non-talashatora Monk. Just to see how bad it reallys is.


You won't be disappointed.

By that I mean you will be.

Pluto
2010-04-26, 11:19 PM
Just to see how bad it reallys is.
Monk isn't a bad class (with a fairly wide variety of skills and its general toughness, it always has something to do -- unlike the Fighter, Samurai, Hexblade, Adept, Healer, Paladin, Knight, etc.); it's just not a big loud spectacular class.

It would be perfectly playable in any game I've ever seen.

Yes, it would take a bit more work to make a Monk fill a role at the same caliber as another class, but it's usually possible (except spellcasting-dependent roles). And even without that work, I've never seen a game where the Monk would be useless; not any more than the 2-skill point Crusader, anyway. (I've seen a lot of games where Fighters are useless.)

The problem is just that the Monk's reputation for sucking seems to have inflated far beyond the scope of the Monk's problems.

...And new posters keep claiming it as a champion of Wizard-killing. The backlash there doesn't help its rep any.

[/tengential rant]

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-26, 11:45 PM
...And new posters keep claiming it as a champion of Wizard-killing. The backlash there doesn't help its rep any.

In fairness, old posters do it too. That particular gem has nothing to do with how new a poster is.

Eldariel
2010-04-26, 11:47 PM
Monk isn't a bad class (with a fairly wide variety of skills and its general toughness, it always has something to do -- unlike the Fighter, Samurai, Hexblade, Adept, Healer, Paladin, Knight, etc.); it's just not a big loud spectacular class.

It would be perfectly playable in any game I've ever seen.

Yes, it would take a bit more work to make a Monk fill a role at the same caliber as another class, but it's usually possible (except spellcasting-dependent roles). And even without that work, I've never seen a game where the Monk would be useless; not any more than the 2-skill point Crusader, anyway. (I've seen a lot of games where Fighters are useless.)

The problem is just that the Monk's reputation for sucking seems to have inflated far beyond the scope of the Monk's problems.

...And new posters keep claiming it as a champion of Wizard-killing. The backlash there doesn't help its rep any.

[/tengential rant]

I've seen a useless Monk. It had pretty average 4d6b3 stats (around Elite Array). Low-level game, he just kinda was there like he had Spring Attack (which he didn't, he just tried to play as if he hit moving up, attacking, pulling back next turn, etc.) never being hit and never hitting anything (not that 1d6+2 or something would kill that something anyways).

I can honestly say his contribution to our total party crunch-wise was about 0. He did once almost get himself killed in some magical experiment, but that's about it.


In fairness, old posters do it too. That particular gem has nothing to do with how new a poster is.

There seems to be a certain correlation between being a Pixie and making the post exactly once. Few actually repeat it.

absolmorph
2010-04-27, 12:00 AM
Divine Rank 6, Life and Death Salient Divine Ability.
Sure, he's in his private demi-plane. But you can reach him there.
And you're not doing any casting or magic-imitation, either! Nobody said it had to be PRACTICAL...

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-27, 12:02 AM
There seems to be a certain correlation between being a Pixie and making the post exactly once. Few actually repeat it.One rather infuriatingly annoyingly persistent poster, however...

The Rabbler
2010-04-27, 12:05 AM
yay for monk debates! I want to participate too! monks are bad because they are bad. tautology works.

Prodan
2010-04-27, 12:07 AM
One rather infuriatingly annoyingly persistent poster, however...

Objection! (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3873334)

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-27, 12:10 AM
Objection! (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3873334)Yes, yes. No verb. I can grammar bad if I wants to.

absolmorph
2010-04-27, 12:17 AM
Objection! (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3873334)
POINTING! (http://chreese.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/pointing20finger.jpg)Like a boss?

Zen Master
2010-04-27, 01:50 AM
How would you make a character based around defeating arcane and divine alike, without psionics, arcane or divine casting, shadowcasting, truenaming, UMD or any other tatic that involves mostly simulating casters abilities?

I actual play, it's never been a problem. Wizards generally don't have much of anything that cannot be shrugged off or countered. This being, naturally, at level 9 to maybe 14 or so.

It goes without saying of course, that in our games you do not pick your own magic items and there are no (or very few) spells from sources other than PHB.

Within those constraints, and in the context of an actual game, I can honestly say that wizards have knocked my melee characters out on the first round less often than I've powered right through their feeble defences and sawed them in half.

All that changes on the typical one-on-one challenge on an endless, featureless plain. Naturally. And I assume it changes at higher levels too. Only the highest level character I ever played was level 15 (or 16 if you want to count 2e).

gdiddy
2010-04-27, 02:48 AM
I'd play something with natural spell Resistance. Then I'd get an amulet of spell resistance. I'm paranoid like that. Get Power Attack, Shocktrooper, Mage Killer, Pierce Magic Protection, Pierce Magic Concealment, Greater Dispelling Magebane Illusionbane weapon, probably on a Warblade, for Diamond Mind and IHS. I would try to gain a [Ex] fly speed, maybe Raptoran. Pump my touch AC with deflection items.

I'd consider a dip into Carmendine Monk for the saves (and maybe a lucky stunning fist) if I am strapped for cash. Mind Blank is key, negative energy immunity would be nice, too. You can't kill pure Limburger, but you will chew through most grocery store Chedder. Your SR and AC will prevent a lot of orbs. If they shapechange, you can out dps them, mostly. You can deal with many summons.

Oh, wait. Solid Fog. You lost, unless you blow the Iron Heart Surge on it. :smallfrown:

Sorry, but it's very hard to make a mage killer, someone who is good across the board at killing something so good at doing everything. Hopefully I've helped you, though!

TheMadLinguist
2010-04-27, 02:49 AM
Knowledge Affiliation (complete champion)
No anti-caster character is complete without it.

Prodan
2010-04-27, 07:23 AM
Within those constraints, and in the context of an actual game, I can honestly say that wizards have knocked my melee characters out on the first round less often than I've powered right through their feeble defences and sawed them in half.
Such as the ability to fly. Incredibly unuseful ability. Highly overrated.

Emmerask
2010-04-27, 07:44 AM
I believe this is about NPC wizards; judging by Il_Vec's recent threads. NPC wizards won't be optimized (unless you really piss off your DM) and they shouldn't be all that hard to get to.


Hm duno about the pissed off thing but my npcs tend to be as optimized as the players are, so if the party wizard uses scry and die, the npcs will use it too, if the party wizard uses astral projection the npcs will use it too etc :smallwink:

/edit not every npc uses all those tactics of course (or any of them) but if there is an ubercharger in the group they will sooner or later encounter one themselves :smallbiggrin: