Help me optimize a Sorcerer/Monk Build

[Tanis HalfElven]

Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:40 pm Post subject: Help with Sorcerer/Monk build pls

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Hey, just writing a new character, thinking about taking Monk 1/Sorcerer X build. Gonna take Ascetic Mage feat. Any ideas for optimization?

Playing Pathfinder RPG. Allowed books are PathFinder Core plus 3.5 Completes, ToB, XPH.

Party includes rogue, cleric/crusader, fighter. 6th lvl party.

Stats:
Str - 10
Dex -16
Con -14
Wis -12
Int - 12
Cha -18

I'm still not 100% on this build. I'll either play a aasimar or elf (if i end up with a wizard) pumping my primary stat to 20 - headband of +4 with crafting will make it 24. Going 1 lvl of monk improves my AC by 8 and it keeps going. Is it worth it tho? My other consideration is a gish with (close to) max CL. Thoughts?

[Lord of Syntax]

Too many monk levels, try 0.

[The Cat Goddess]

Monk-2 for Evasion is so important. If you're going Monk-1, you should go to Monk-2.

Of course, if you don't mind playing a Blaster and really want a better AC, go Unarmed Swordsage-2, Warmage-4 and wear light armour with your +Cha bonus.

If you don't want Swordsage and don't care about Evasion, pick up BattleDancer (Dragon Compendium) which gets Cha to AC and save the Feat.

[Pluto]

You can make a Sorcerer/Monk gish work, but given your party, I'd lean away from it.

You don't have any spellcasters who are going to be doing the large-scale spellcasting. So even if you drop a level for the Monk dip, I'd still recommend heading toward Mage of the Arcane Order (CArc), and then probably Fatespinner, Divine Oracle or possibly Archmage.

[waterpenguin43]

Monk 1/Sorcerer 5. Get a few agility-boosting spells for sorcerer, and some offensive ones. Especially touch attacks.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If you must get Monk, then get Monk2 for Evasion and +3 to all saves. Then go Sorcerer, and pick up Ascetic Mage for Cha to AC.

But seriously, there is nothing about Monk that is worth two lost caster levels.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Monk 1/ Sorcerer 4/ Enlightened Fist 5/ Master of the East Wind (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Prestige.pdf) 10 (page 59), you'll get 18/20 Sorcerer spellcasting and 16/20 Monk abilities. Master of the East Wind gets 10/10 in both spellcasting and Monk abilities, adds 1/2 its levels to your Familiar progression, and grants the Air domain at the 5th level, adding the domain spells to your spells known and granting the domain power at your MotEW class level. The only downside is the +12 BAB at level 20, though you can take Persistent Spell to use with Shield, Wraithstrike, Bladeweave, Displacement, etc. Get the Dragonblood subtype, such as from one of the racial variants from Dragon Magic or via Draconic Heritage, and you can get Practical Metamagic in Races of the Dragon to make Persistent Spell a +5 metamagic instead of +6. With Draconic Heritage you could also pick up Draconic Breath (fire or electricity) and learn the spell Blinding Breath for one of the most potent save-or-lose effects in the game, plus you can worry less about picking offensive damage spells.

I'd go Str 12, Wis 10, probably Wood or Wild Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#wildElf), preferably Magic-Blooded (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.0Index-Templates.pdf) (page 15), along with the Forestlord variant from Dragon Magic. A Magic-Blooded Wood Elf gets Str +2, Dex +2, Con -2, Int -2, Wis -2, Cha +2, just swap Dex and Con and after racial modifiers you'll have Str 14, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 20. Another alternative would be a Dragonwrought Kobold Loredrake, in which case I'd go Spellhoarding as well and use Carmendine Monk instead of Ascetic Mage, with both the Stalwart Sorcerer and Battle Sorcerer variants as there would be no drawbacks. That is extremely cheesy and not likely to fly in any actual game, plus it's entirely dependent on (Draconic) Polymorph for combat ability.

[Kurald Galain]

How about playing an unarmed duskblade?

[nedz]

You might want all 5 levels of Abjurant Champion which is a reasonable Gish option; better than Enlightened Fist anyway.

[Escheton]

get combustion and fist of stone

punch so hard they catch fire

[Optimystik]

Do you have Dragon Compendium? The Battle Dancer class gets most of the Monk benefits, but uses Charisma instead of Wisdom, making it a better fit for sorcerer.

[valadil]

IIRC Ascetic Mage stacks with Arcane Strike. I think there's also a prestige class that gives a similar spell burning for damage ability (maybe Enlightened Fist? Been a while since I played 3.5). Burning 3 spells a round to get bonus damage is probably suboptimal, but one of the most fun options you can have with a monk sorc.

[J.Gellert]

Can't look it up right now, but I had a build that was going like Monk 1/Sorcerer 4/Enlightened Fist 2/Master of the East Wind 8/Abjurant Champion 5. Close enough to full caster that you are still awesome as long as you act like one.

[pilvento]

monk 1/soc 4/ enlightned fist 3 / swiftblade!!!

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327

is the best option u have if your idea of a monk/sorcerer is to deliver touch spells all over the field while kicking enemies in the face and buff you up tu the limit.

the swiftblade prc gives full bab, 2 good saves, average CL and lots and lots of exelent features incluidin 50% concealment all the time vs spells and attacks, cast haste as a free action, freedom of movement and more.

im actually playing this build in my table, we are lvl 15 allready, and it rocks!

take snap kick from ToB, asetic mage, arcane strike and boots of battledancin to add your cha to damage rolls and attack bonus

in the end, you will add your cha to damage, ac, attack rolls, and initiative! (thanks to another feature of the PrC)

CHA: best stat ever:smallwink:

[valadil]

monk 1/soc 4/ enlightned fist 3 / swiftblade!!!


The real trick to this build is convincing your GM to allow Swiftblade.

[Grommen]

Too many monk levels, try 0.

And to think I assumed that it would take at least 2 posts before someone said to not take the monk level. :smallbiggrin:

[OldFart]

Monk 1/ Sorcerer 4/ Enlightened Fist 5/ Master of the East Wind (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Prestige.pdf) 10 (page 59)This build is full of win; except for:

Playing Pathfinder RPG. Allowed books are PathFinder Core plus 3.5 Completes, ToB, XPH.First, talk to your DM and make sure you both agree on interpretation of Ascetic Mage in regards to RAW abilities for PF Monk before you waste a CL on a level dip. Also, while I'm not that familiar with Pathfinder, after a quick browsing of the SRD, I think if I were going to sacrifice CL for a gish build, I would do so in Dragon Disciple rather than Enlightened Fist. If I'm reading it correctly, you would be able to do Monk 1/Sorc 1/DD 4, have good HP, +3 natural armor, a breath weapon (5d6 once/day removes some of the sting of not having third-level spells yet), CL 4, natural attacks, and a BAB that at least compares to a pure arcane caster. You also get +4 Str, by switching Str and Dex on your stats, you'd be acceptably formidable in melee. While your natural attacks will not work with flurry of blows, they would work just fine with non-flurry Unarmed Strike.

I don't know if I would continue DD past 4, as it would mean losing another CL.

[pilvento]

The real trick to this build is convincing your GM to allow Swiftblade.

when i first came out with the PrC at lvl 9, he said "fine"

now we are lvl 15 and i drived him nuts now he is taking some "DM Vacations"

[Tanis HalfElven]

DD sounds good, except you've got to be lvl 5. hmmm...needs re-working.

[Thurbane]

Apart from all the obligatory "Monk suxx0rz" comments...have you considered a Beguiler/Monk/Enlightened Fist instead? If you take the Kung Fu Genius or Carmendine Monk feats, you can dump WIS (and CHA) and use INT instead (the casting stat of the Beguiler). Or maybe Duskblade instead of Beguiler - also spontaneous casting off INT, and more combat oriented...

[Keld Denar]

and grants the Air domain at the 5th level, adding the domain spells to your spells known and granting the domain power at your MotEW class level.

I don't have that Dragon Mag, but unless it usurps the rules in Complete Divine about gaining domains, you are wrong.


If the noncleric is a spontaneous caster like a sorcerer or favored soul, then she may select a domain spell to add to her spells known whenever she would have an option to choose a new known spell.

So, a Sorcerer/Master would gain the Air domain, but still must select one from each level as one of your spells known. The only advantage to that is that it adds spells that are normally divine spells to your spells known list, allowing you to even learn it, and use Spell Trigger items of those spells.

It doesn't give you free spells known. Well, unless there is something in MotEW that explicitly contradicts this.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Too many monk levels, try 0.

Actually, this is pretty solid advice, as you can grab Ascetic Mage via a feat and use a Monk's Belt to get Cha to AC from it.


Personally, I would go with Wizard, as it does allow you to waste a level on monk without fear of losing eventual access to 9th level spells pre-epic. Just me though. Either Carmendine Monk or Kung-Fu Genius is a most for keying stuffs off of Int instead of Wis. This will allow you to dump both Cha and Wis to 8 and bump up everything else that's important. Use spells like Wraithstrike and polymorph for great justice and laugh a little. Buffs are your BFFs.

Build stub: Monk 0/Wizard 5 (or 3 or 1, really; see notes)/Eldritch Knight 3 (or 4 or 5)/Abjurant Champion 5/Enlightened Fist 7 (or 8 or 9). Use feats for qualifications, Arcane Strike (Complete Warrior version, not Pathfinder's), Extend Spell, Power Attack, Kung-Fu Genius, and practiced spellcaster. With this set-up, you do need the monk's built to get any real benefit, though.

Notes: By being a native outsider (unless that changed for Pathfinder, in which case, you can get in via Otherwordly or Militia, but both of those are FR material), you meat the proficiency requirement for EK. Precocious Apprentice and/or Sanctum Spell then get you the rest of the way there by getting level 3 spells.

[quiet1mi]

I am interested in the idea of Monk 2/ Sorcerer 6/ Swiftblade 4 to make a level 12 character...

But as a level 6 character Monk 2 / Sorcerer 4 sounds fine...

Arcane Strike Leads into some burly damage....
Acetic Mage to help with the Ac and lends some more damage...

Looking at the stalwart sorcerer alternative class feature sounds kinda cool as it gives you 42 more Hp as a level 6 sorcerer and proficiency in 1 martial weapon along with weapon focus with that weapon...

I would suggest to have fun first... at level 6 I would not worry about optimization too much... level 10 you may start to notice the difference between a decent build and a poor build.

In my opinion it really depends heavily on your spell selection

[Tanis HalfElven]

Apart from all the obligatory "Monk suxx0rz" comments...have you considered a Beguiler/Monk/Enlightened Fist instead? If you take the Kung Fu Genius or Carmendine Monk feats, you can dump WIS (and CHA) and use INT instead (the casting stat of the Beguiler). Or maybe Duskblade instead of Beguiler - also spontaneous casting off INT, and more combat oriented...


Beguiler's PHB II. no good. Both Kung Fu Genius and Carm. Monk are from disallowed resources.

@Thrice Dead Cat: I'm losing a substantial AC bns not taking monk.

I'm considering Swordsage/Sorcerer/Jade Phoenix Mage or Monk/Sorc/Dragon Disciple. Thoughts?

[satorian]

I'm under the impression that AC scales so poorly at high levels that you might be better off just using your sorcerer spells or magic items to up your concealment than worry at all about AC. Even with that aside, greater mage armor will make up for most of the monk AC bonus. And it's a neat-o force effect.

I see your conundrum. Both monks and sorcs have this "power within" thing that should make them work well together. And they might, if monk weren't such a poorly designed class, even in PF.

[Thurbane]

Beguiler's PHB II. no good. Both Kung Fu Genius and Carm. Monk are from disallowed resources.
Ah, sorry about that. I'm usually pretty careful about checking things like that, too. :smallredface:

[Kobold-Bard]

Too many monk levels, try 0.

But then you can't be Mario:
http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt310/Kobold-Bard/Multiclassing.png

[Doc Roc]

But then you can't be Mario:
http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt310/Kobold-Bard/Multiclassing.png

Mario is very obviously a factotum.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Mario is very obviously a factotum.

Nah, he's a Rogue with max ranks in UMD. He, himself, isn't all that special, but he can use all kinds of fun toys.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I don't have that Dragon Mag, but unless it usurps the rules in Complete Divine about gaining domains, you are wrong.

It specifically states that it does exactly that: "scribed in a wizard's spellbook, or added to a sorcerer or bard's list of known spells, in addition to the character's normal number. The master of the east wind casts these spells as arcane spells."


Now that I see what books are allowed, I would use the Arcane Swordsage variant, possibly combined with the Unarmed Swordsage variant. Get Heroics as a maneuver known, and you can Heroics: Martial Study: any arcane spell in the game; Adaptive Style; initiate the gained spell; dismiss Heroics; initiate Heroics, repeat. That will get you every hour+/level buff in the game continually active, such as (Greater) Mage Armor, the entire Heart of- line of spells, Greater Magic Weapon, Greater/Superior Resistance, Rope Trick, etc. for the cost of a single maneuver known. Plus you're three rounds away from using any situational arcane spell you can think of on the fly.

[nulio]

I'm sure to keep an eye for this thread since I'm also trying to find a nice build with a monk and sorceress flavor :)

We'll start at lvl1 in a PowerGamer adventure :P