Minimizing the evil from undead creation

[Trekkin]

I am trying to make an undead controller, but my DM prefers that our characters not be overtly, puppy-kickingly evil. Is there any way to ameliorate the [evil] component of a spell, or to somehow sanctify the necromantic goings-on? Are there creatable good undead?

Lastly, looking in the BoED we find rules for redemption. Can these apply to intelligent undead? (I'm assuming they could not work for unintelligent creatures)

[Optimystik]

Easy. Be a Hellbred (FC2) - they have a class feature called Evil Exception that lets them cast Evil spells and use Evil magic items without hurting their alignment, so long as they don't actually commit evil acts.

Spirit aspect gives you a Cha bonus, which will make you a decent Dread Necromancer, and the Con hit won't be relevant if you take Tomb-tainted soul to be able to heal yourself at-will with your own touch.

[jiriku]

From a role-playing perspective, you could also make some brownie points with your DM by having your character treat the bodies of the fallen with respect, perhaps praying over them, ritually preparing them, or doing whatever is appropriate for the character's culture.

Eberron features the deathless, neutral or good-aligned undead creatures powered by positive energy, and includes some spells that create deathless undead. It's probably just what you're looking for.

[Optimystik]

Another trick - If you like Incarnum, there is an adaptation for the Necrocarnate that makes it good, called the Vivicarnate. The zombie minions you gain become "The Redeemed" and all the Necrocarnate soulmelds become Good-aligned.

[lsfreak]

Ask your DM how undead actually work. The default fluff is they are a link to the Negative Energy Plane (which is but isn't evil, depending on which book you consult) and it's that link that's evil. Ask your DM to explain why undead, or their creation, is inherently evil. Violation against nature? The soul is forced back into the body? Negative energy (in which case ask him why the hell inflict isn't evil either)? Naturally-formed undead are evil because only extreme anger, violence, or the like can animate them and they are inherently malevolent, but magically-created undead have no such inherent hatred? Maybe there isn't a reason that it's inherently evil, except it's stigmatized as willful desecration.

View necromancy as allowing fallen heroes to continue the work they did in life. Or the person has passed on, and you're dealing with a lump of flesh that's as much a person as a fallen leaf. Do note that necromancy is harder to rationalize, at least with humans as the targets, when there's easy access to resurrection magic.

[Set]

Check with the GM if you can use your own life-energy to animate things as a variant spell. Instead of using onyx, you'd take ability damage to Con (which would heal) and use costly components of more good-associated materials, such as powdered gold and pure water 'to make a spiritual connection' with the flesh and bone to be animated.

Alternately, use some other form of energy to animate stuff. Golems use elemental spirits, for instance. Ravid use positive energy. In earlier editions, Mummies were animated by positive energy as well. It's entirely possible that the plane of shadow, astral plane or ethereal plane could also be tapped in this manner.

Instead of flooding corpses with negative energy, see if you can barter with the spirits of ancestors to come back for a short time and re-animate their fallen bodies for specific tasks, using a variation on planar binding (or, heck, just flat-out Planar Binding, which should be able to call up a Petitioner or Einherjar or whatever). Or skip the bodies entirely, and have only incorporeal spiritual advisors, with statistics similar to non-evil shadows, but lacking the ability to create spawn and appearing as translucent images of their in-life form (and retaining some skills and feats and memories that might prove helpful).

Alternately, find a way to strengthen whatever spiritual 'echo' or shadow of the soul or 'khaibit' that remains in a corpse and answers questions posed by Speak With Dead, so that it can animate the body and move it around. Such echoes aren't actual spirits or souls, so there would be no evil involved in putting such non-sentient residues to work.

[Telonius]

Google-fu found a 3rd-party book that deals with "redeemed liches." The Complete Guide to Liches (http://cardboardheros.50megs.com/d20goodman.html). No idea if it's any good, never heard of it before so I'd be kind of leery.

I would say that if Wizards themselves could produce a succubus paladin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a), a redeemed intelligent undead shouldn't be that hard to imagine. Maybe some kind of a Blade-like character using his powers to destroy all of his kind. Forgotten Realms has the Baelnorns, which are basically "good liches."

[subject42]

In terms of in-game explanation, you can max out your ranks of craft (carving) and make never-been-alive corpses by casting stone to flesh out of statues.

There's no soul to worry about, so it's only the matter of negative energy at that point.

[Trekkin]

I just checked the Deathless domain, and it's perfect but for the minimum spell being 6th level. Was any content ever published to let one make deathless sooner?

[hamishspence]

I would say that if Wizards themselves could produce a succubus paladin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a), a redeemed intelligent undead shouldn't be that hard to imagine.


Jander Sunstar, in Christie Golden's short stories, was a redeemed vampire. At least, in the stories he refuses to succumb to the temptation to do evil acts.

I'm not sure if he stays a good guy in the Ravenloft book Vampire of the Mists.

[deuxhero]

Point out to the DM that undead don't deserve the [evil] tag in anyway. Constructs require you enslave a sapient being (which isn't purely fluff, note the chance an elemental goes berserk) while undead do nothing more than make use of an empty body and animate it with raw non-intelligent energy (this prevents res only because the body is occupied) while contrasts have no alignment restrictions (then use this and deathwatch being evil to show him that the entire D&D alignment system is stupid).

[Melayl]

Jander Sunstar, in Christie Golden's short stories, was a redeemed vampire. At least, in the stories he refuses to succumb to the temptation to do evil acts.

I'm not sure if he stays a good guy in the Ravenloft book Vampire of the Mists.

He does, though it's a close thing at points...

[Person_Man]

Another trick - If you like Incarnum, there is an adaptation for the Necrocarnate that makes it good, called the Vivicarnate. The zombie minions you gain become "The Redeemed" and all the Necrocarnate soulmelds become Good-aligned.

Or even if you don't want to use adaptation rules, a Neutral Incarnate can take the Necrocarnum Acolyte feat, which grants access to Necrocarnum soulmelds (an Evil meldshaper can take Necrocarnum soulmelds without spending a feat). If you then shape the Necrocarnum Circlet soulmeld and bind it to your Crown chakra (which an Incarnate can do at 2nd level) you can create a Necrocarnum Zombie (with max HD = meldshaper level) as a full round action. The Necrocarnum Zombie retains all of the natural attacks of it's previous self, gains a Slam attack and a variety of buffs, and isn't limited to a single action (like a mundane Zombie). Your new Necrocarnum Zombie acts on the turn he is created, and you have full control over it as long as you keep line of sight. And the best part is that you can do this over and over again throughout the day - and thus always have a disposable servant to do whatever you want. The only limitation is that you can only have 1 at a time, and you zombify the same creature more then once.

[hamishspence]

(then use this and deathwatch being evil to show him that the entire D&D alignment system is stupid).

Deathwatch wasn't evil in 3.0. And in 3.5, the first books after the PHB (BoED and Miniatures Handbook) put it on the spell lists of classes and PRCs that had to be Good.

Suggesting that, even that the time, some of the game designers disagreed with the notion that it had to be evil.

[Trekkin]

I agree that the alignment system is frequently arbitrary and incomprehensibly subjective, but my DM still maintains that 1. We can't do a lot of evil things and 2. Undead creation is an evil act, and as another member of the group has been pestering him to death on nearly everything else I'd rather just find a mechanical solution. So is there a 3rd level Deathless spell, or perhaps a conversion somewhere for good necromancers?

Also, if you redeem an intelligent undead you raised, are they still under your control?

To correct myself, "a lot of evil things" is perhaps overly restrictive. It is preferable that our actions are nonevil.

[subject42]

Since corpses are considered objects, could you use various abuses of caster level and the permanency spell to simulate an undead creature with animate object?

[Trekkin]

One could, in theory, but those aren't undead then, just moving bodies. I was looking for a way of making undead, but making them good.

[TheMadLinguist]

Helm of opposite alignment. Craft it with the (only works on evil) restriction.

If the DM says the undead are mindless, and hence have no alignment, then ask why they're evil.

Or just pick up the purify spell metamagic.

[Trekkin]

A Hellbred cleric using Purified Animate Dead?

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

In before rebuke -> command.

Controlling != creating undead.

Creating undead is evil. Being neutral and making them your B|tch in the fight for good? Not quite wholesome but definitely not evil. And don't say it won't give you the quantity and strength of undead you crave...

[The Rose Dragon]

I'm suddenly reminded of the 40-page long discussion "Is creating undead evil?", which mostly went nowhere.

I'll just note that casting spells with the [Evil] descriptor is only an Evil act according to Book of Vile Darkness and Eberron Campaign Setting.

[hamishspence]

And a Corrupt act according to FC2- but I have seen it argued that "corrupt" does not automatically mean "evil"

That said, as written, "channelling negative energy" via Rebuke/Command, is an evil act in the PHB.

[The Rose Dragon]

Also, mindless undead were True Neutral until 3.5, where they were suddenly and inexplicably made Neutral Evil probably to allow Paladins to smite them.

[Thane of Fife]

1. We can't do a lot of evil things

I didn't say that. My requirements were better described as
characters not... overtly, puppy-kickingly evil

As I've tried to say at least twice now, it doesn't really bother me if you animate corpses. If you don't do it respectfully and in moderation, then it's evil, but still permissible. And even then it's not that bad (if you do do it respectfully and in moderation, then it's not even evil).

It's more spells like Create Undead and Create Greater Undead which I would consider to be really evil.

And even then, in all honesty I'd prefer if you just accepted that you were doing evil then try to craft some round-a-bout way to do the exact same thing such that, RAW, it's not evil.

[TheMadLinguist]

Why is create greater undead evil? Ghosts aren't inherently evil, for example. Is bringing back the spirit of the world's greatest paladin evil just because he's running on a different kind of neutral power source?

If creatures made of pure negative energy (negative energy elementals) are the same alignment as creatures made of pure positive energy, it's difficult to justify undead as being anything other than a tragically misunderstood group of creatures with a few bad apples ruining it for everyone(thing) else.

[Trekkin]

And even then, in all honesty I'd prefer if you just accepted that you were doing evil then try to craft some round-a-bout way to do the exact same thing such that, RAW, it's not evil.

Indeed such would be preferable if i wanted animate dead specifically, but I'd prefer finding a way of creating permanent meatshields as cheaply and adaptably as undead can be created that isn't evil, RAW or RAI. Deathless, for example, aren't evil in any interpretation, but they take a sixth-level spell to create. AFAIK, undead are the gold standard in inexpensive, variable minions, so I was hoping there was an adaptation out there for making them in an honestly good way.

[hamishspence]

Also, mindless undead were True Neutral until 3.5, where they were suddenly and inexplicably made Neutral Evil probably to allow Paladins to smite them.

Possibly. Though didn't the Detect Evil spell in 3.0, list undead, regardless of their alignments, as creatures that detected as evil?

[Optimystik]

Indeed such would be preferable if i wanted animate dead specifically, but I'd prefer finding a way of creating permanent meatshields as cheaply and adaptably as undead can be created that isn't evil, RAW or RAI. Deathless, for example, aren't evil in any interpretation, but they take a sixth-level spell to create. AFAIK, undead are the gold standard in inexpensive, variable minions, so I was hoping there was an adaptation out there for making them in an honestly good way.

As with so much of 3.5, the only way to beat the system without Rule 0 is to cheat (e.g. Evil Exception.)

Keep in mind though that [Evil] spells are only supposed to be a minor evil act, so you should be able to have quite a few before worrying about slipping from neutrality. You can bolster this by having your minions just rescue enough orphans between missions :smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

Dread Necromancer in Heroes of Horror is described as, in the case of Neutral ones "able to balance evil deeds with good deeds and good intentions"

So, the most minor of evil deeds (casting some evil spells) might be workable in the case of a Neutral, very heroic character.

Basically, they're much more altruistic and heroic than your average Neutral character- it's only these few evil acts, that hold them in Neutral alignment.

[Sydonai]

"The path to hell is paved with good intentions." Say that your character is fully resigned to going to Baator/Abyss but will be good and perform good acts inspite of this fact, a martyr basically.(Hellbred still works in the case)