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View Full Version : Remaking Half-Giant <3.5>



~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-27, 01:11 PM
Is it possible to make a non-psionic half-giant that's 0la?

The Cat Goddess
2010-04-27, 01:18 PM
The Psionic part is the least valuable bonus of Half-Giant.

The LA adjust comes from the Powerful Build, just like Goliath.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-27, 01:19 PM
The Psionic part is the least valuable bonus of Half-Giant.

The LA adjust comes from the Powerful Build, just like Goliath.

is there a viable bonus for losing both psionics and powerful build so players would use it

The Cat Goddess
2010-04-27, 01:24 PM
is there a viable bonus for losing both psionics and powerful build so players would use it

Well... Giant Type instead of Humanoid.

Decent +Str.

I don't recall much else about it off the top of my head.

Kylarra
2010-04-27, 01:28 PM
is there a viable bonus for losing both psionics and powerful build so players would use itUhh... if you take out powerful build and the psionics, why bother even applying the template? :smallconfused:

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-27, 01:29 PM
Well... Giant Type instead of Humanoid.

Decent +Str.

I don't recall much else about it off the top of my head.

Coolio. Giant type, a +4 to Str, -2 dex -2 cha, and the ability to weild weapons 1 size larger, but cannot weild finessable weapons?

Person_Man
2010-04-27, 01:30 PM
We've been through this a couple of times. Half Giant and Goliath have Powerful Build. Powerful Build lets you qualify for Knockback. Knockback is very potent, in that it grants you a free Bull Rush whenever you make a Power Attack (ie, every melee attack that you want, and thrown weapon attacks with Bloodstorm Blade). When combined with Shocktrooper, you can also steer your Bull Rushes and Trip enemies. When combined with the Dungeoncrasher (Fighter 6 alternate class feature from Dungeonscape), it can give you massive damage.

See: Flaming Homer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4108954&postcount=22) and King of Pong (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107248).

If you are willing to swear off the use of Knockback, Powerful Build is still quite potent as a boost to opposed checks and damage. Plus the Half Giant gets 2 power points (useful for Psionic Focus, if you're playing a non-psionic class but want to use psionic feats), good ability modifiers, low light vision, and Stomp once per day. So basically there's no way to make it LA 0 without completely re-writing the race. And at that point, you might as well use some 0 LA race and just work your giant-ish heritage into your fluff.

The Rose Dragon
2010-04-27, 01:30 PM
is there a viable bonus for losing both psionics and powerful build so players would use it

Did you consider just using human and saying that one of your parents was a giant, but human genetics kinda overruled theirs?

Does it need to be a set of mechanics under the racial package of "half-giant", or do you just want players to have one giant and one human parent?

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-27, 01:32 PM
We've been through this a couple of times. Half Giant and Goliath have Powerful Build. Powerful Build lets you qualify for Knockback. Knockback is very potent, in that it grants you a free Bull Rush whenever you make a Power Attack (ie, every melee attack that you want, and thrown weapon attacks with Bloodstorm Blade). When combined with Shocktrooper, you can also steer your Bull Rushes and Trip enemies. When combined with the Dungeoncrasher (Fighter 6 alternate class feature from Dungeonscape), it can give you massive damage.

See: Flaming Homer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4108954&postcount=22) and King of Pong (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107248).

If you are willing to swear off the use of Knockback, Powerful Build is still quite potent as a boost to opposed checks and damage. Plus the Half Giant gets 2 power points (useful for Psionic Focus, if you're playing a non-psionic class but want to use psionic feats), good ability modifiers, low light vision, and Stomp once per day. So basically there's no way to make it LA 0 without completely re-writing the race. And at that point, you might as well use some 0 LA race and just work your giant-ish heritage into your fluff.

I never use it like that. I literally use it to use a Greatclub designed for a troll

The Rose Dragon
2010-04-27, 01:53 PM
So, you basically want to use a very large weapon, without any of the other benefits.

I could suggest two things, one is more fitting in with the theme, while the other is more mechanically sound but requires some justification.

1) Take Monkey Grip and suck it up. The general opinion is that it is not worth it, as it only increases base weapon damage, which gets less and less important in the actual damage dealt as levels increase.

2) Take Power Attack, state that you have a "special" greatclub that is larger than normal and can only be used with Power Attack, and accept a penalty to your attack every round you use the club. It is mechanically better, as in it allows you to deal more damage with the same consistency and opens up more options, but it will not allow you to use other weapons designed for Large creatures.

Powerful Build is, as the name states, a powerful racial trait for all fighter types and is still good for casters, and is probably worth a +1 LA on any Medium-sized creature.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-27, 01:55 PM
So, you basically want to use a very large weapon, without any of the other benefits.

I could suggest two things, one is more fitting in with the theme, while the other is more mechanically sound but requires some justification.

1) Take Monkey Grip and suck it up. The general opinion is that it is not worth it, as it only increases base weapon damage, which gets less and less important in the actual damage dealt as levels increase.

2) Take Power Attack, state that you have a "special" greatclub that is larger than normal and can only be used with Power Attack, and accept a penalty to your attack every round you use the club. It is mechanically better, as in it allows you to deal more damage with the same consistency and opens up more options, but it will not allow you to use other weapons designed for Large creatures.

Powerful Build is, as the name states, a powerful racial trait for all fighter types and is still good for casters, and is probably worth a +1 LA on any Medium-sized creature.

jortinbrund!!!! Forgot that feat!

Starbuck_II
2010-04-27, 02:11 PM
LA 0 1/2 Giant:
• +2 Con and -2 Dex
•Giant: Half-giants are not subject to spells or effects that affect humanoids only, such as charm person or dominate person.
•Medium: As Medium creatures, half-giants have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
•Half-giant base land speed is 30 feet.
•Low-Light Vision: A half-giant can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
•Fire Acclimated: Half-giants have a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against all fire spells and effects. Half-giants are accustomed to enduring high temperatures.
•Naturally Psionic: Half-giants gain 2 bonus power points at 1st level. This benefit does not grant them the ability to manifest powers unless they gain that ability through another source, such as levels in a psionic class.
•Psi-Like Ability: 1/day—stomp. Manifester level is equal to ½ Hit Dice (minimum 1st). The save DC is Charisma-based.

Really, Stat bonuses + PB are why LA +1.

You could even make them large (since that only increases weapon size with a AC penalty) as long as Str not increases and still be LA +0.

Oslecamo
2010-04-27, 02:27 PM
You could even make them large (since that only increases weapon size with a AC penalty) as long as Str not increases and still be LA +0.

No, large by itself is worth +1LA. It increases your reach, the number of squares you ocupy (better battlefield control), allows you to laugh at puny enemies trying to trip you while you're unstopable at it, qualifies for several cool stuff that demands large size, etc, etc.

However, since it's mostly melee that benefits, heck, it probably won't break the game in higher powered campaigns.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-27, 02:33 PM
No, large by itself is worth +1LA. It increases your reach, the number of squares you ocupy (better battlefield control), allows you to laugh at puny enemies trying to trip you while you're unstopable at it, qualifies for several cool stuff that demands large size, etc, etc.

However, since it's mostly melee that benefits, heck, it probably won't break the game in higher powered campaigns.

Not according to savage species.
Large is not enough for LA +1. However, every large creature gets a Str boost that makes them LA +1.

Don't believe that, check. While SS may not be best guide: it does know what it is talking about.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-04-27, 03:27 PM
Don't believe that, check. While SS may not be best guide: it does know what it is talking about.

I beg to differ. Being size Large is an IMMENSE boon to ANY melee class, and it's worth the +1 LA up to the point where you can afford a permanent size-increasing item. The size category by itself isn't worth the +1 LA, but how it interacts with feats is. Suddenly a spiked-chain wielding Combat Reflexes build is incredibly potent, and the Knockback feat comes into play, making things worse.

In short, the designers of Savage Species really don't know what they're talking about. They forgot to consider the game as a whole.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-28, 11:28 AM
LA 0 1/2 Giant:
• +2 Con and -2 Dex
•Giant: Half-giants are not subject to spells or effects that affect humanoids only, such as charm person or dominate person.
•Medium: As Medium creatures, half-giants have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
•Half-giant base land speed is 30 feet.
•Low-Light Vision: A half-giant can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
•Fire Acclimated: Half-giants have a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against all fire spells and effects. Half-giants are accustomed to enduring high temperatures.
•Naturally Psionic: Half-giants gain 2 bonus power points at 1st level. This benefit does not grant them the ability to manifest powers unless they gain that ability through another source, such as levels in a psionic class.
•Psi-Like Ability: 1/day—stomp. Manifester level is equal to ½ Hit Dice (minimum 1st). The save DC is Charisma-based.

Really, Stat bonuses + PB are why LA +1.

You could even make them large (since that only increases weapon size with a AC penalty) as long as Str not increases and still be LA +0.

I like this, minus the Psionics. Is there something I can swap that out for?

The idea is a Half-Giant Half-Neanderthal Generic Warrior with a Large/Huge Greatclub

Kylarra
2010-04-28, 11:32 AM
I like this, minus the Psionics. Is there something I can swap that out for?

The idea is a Half-Giant Half-Neanderthal Generic Warrior with a Large/Huge GreatclubYou do realize that the quoted adjusted template lacks PB and as such doesn't provide anything towards your goals right?

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-28, 11:36 AM
You do realize that the quoted adjusted template lacks PB and as such doesn't provide anything towards your goals right?

Right. So I use that (with something instead of the Psionics), and take Jortinbrund so I "gain" PB

paddyfool
2010-04-28, 11:39 AM
Why not just use Jotunbrund then, and fluff it as having giant heritage?

Kylarra
2010-04-28, 11:39 AM
Right. So I use that (with something instead of the Psionics), and take Jortinbrund so I "gain" PB
Negative. Jotunbrud lacks crucial wording. Namely, this line:


A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-28, 11:43 AM
Negative. Jotunbrud lacks crucial wording

I assume there's a feat to obtain Powerful Build...

paddyfool
2010-04-28, 11:48 AM
Actually I don't think there is, because Powerful Build is a bit too powerful to be a feat. Hence why it's worth +1 LA.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-28, 11:53 AM
Actually I don't think there is, because Powerful Build is a bit too powerful to be a feat. Hence why it's worth +1 LA.

What? Its "too powerful for a feat?" How????? I just want it in a Neanderthal so I can be a giant's club-weilding madman. And Monkey Grip is a BS feat that accomplishes nothing.

Kylarra
2010-04-28, 11:56 AM
What? Its "too powerful for a feat?" How????? I just want it in a Neanderthal so I can be a giant's club-weilding madman. And Monkey Grip is a BS feat that accomplishes nothing.
Suck it up and take the LA then? :smallsigh:

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-28, 12:00 PM
Suck it up and take the LA then? :smallsigh:

and be Lv0?

Kylarra
2010-04-28, 12:03 PM
and be Lv0?Actually, I forgot who I was talking to for a minute. Why not just ask your DM to waive the -2 penalty from monkey grip?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-04-28, 12:06 PM
Options
Just say you have a really big club. It still deals normal damage.
Take Monkey Grip as a feat.
Change Monkey Grip to allow you to wield a weapon 1 size category larger without penalty. That's not particularly overpowered. Done.
Eat the Level Adjustment, maybe with a deal with your DM (for instance, you enter play at level 1, but don't level up to level 2 until the rest of the party hits level 3).
Homebrew something, but listen to what everyone has been saying regarding general power guidelines. Expect to lack things you'd want in order to hit LA +0.

My preferred options in bold.

TheThan
2010-04-28, 12:07 PM
and be Lv0?

No, you'll still be level 1. but you'll lag behind the rest of the party by one level. unless the DM allows LA buy off which case, you'll eventually catch up to the rest of the party.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-28, 01:23 PM
No, you'll still be level 1. but you'll lag behind the rest of the party by one level. unless the DM allows LA buy off which case, you'll eventually catch up to the rest of the party.

My DMs say I'd be Lv0. That's their rule

Glimbur
2010-04-28, 01:52 PM
My DMs say I'd be Lv0. That's their rule

So how does being level 0 work in their house rules?

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-28, 01:58 PM
So how does being level 0 work in their house rules?

You have your Con modifier for HP, and 100 XP and you are 1st level

Amphetryon
2010-04-28, 02:31 PM
Unless the XP progression is non-standard -which, given other houserules listed is not a huge leap of imagination - that means you'd be level 0 for one session. Use your reach and stay out of harms way, and you'll be fine.

Optimystik
2010-04-28, 03:08 PM
My DMs say I'd be Lv0. That's their rule

Tell him you get 9th-level spells and all good saves, there's no class progression table that shows you don't have those things at level 0.


is there a viable bonus for losing both psionics and powerful build so players would use it

Players do use Half-Giants. 1LA is far from the end of the world, and the benefits are worth it.