(3.5) Can someone explain divine metamagic for me?

[Cisturn]

Can someone explain divine metamagic for me?

[Zeful]

You use Turn Undead Attempts to reduce a metamagic's spell slot adjustment to 0. The number of attempts needed is detailed by the feat itself.

[Cisturn]

yes but is it the same list of metamagic that other casters can choose from like Extend, Maximize, Empower and the like?

[Random NPC]

yes but is it the same list of metamagic that other casters can choose from like Extend, Maximize, Empower and the like?

That's the whole point of it! :smallwink:

[term1nally s1ck]

Yeah. You have to already have the metamagic feat you wish to use without adjustment, and the divine metamagic feat for that metamagic, too.

[Cisturn]

thank you for clearing that up

[The Cat Goddess]

Can someone explain divine metamagic for me?

Step 1: Get Metamagic Feat (Persistant Spell is most common... yeah, you have to have Extend Spell first to get Persistant Spell.)
Step 2: Get Divine Metamagic Feat for Persistant Spell.
Step 3: Spend 6 Turn Attempts to make a spell you cast (even a 9th level spell) that has a duration, Persistant (i.e. lasts 24 hours).
Step 4: Profit!

If you want to use Divine Metamagic for Reach Spell and you already have Divine Metamagic for Persistant Spell...

Step 1: Get Reach Spell Feat
Step 2: Get Divine Metamagic (Reach Spell) Feat.
Step 3: Spend 1 Turn Attempt to make a spell you cast that has a reach of "touch" instead have a reach of "short" (or 30'... can't recall off the top of my head).
Step 4: Heal at range!

Yes, you have to buy the Divine Metamagic Feat again for every Metamagic Feat you want to be able to use this way.

[jiriku]

Step 1: Get Metamagic Feat (Persistant Spell is most common... yeah, you have to have Extend Spell first to get Persistant Spell.)
Step 2: Get Divine Metamagic Feat for Persistant Spell.
Step 3: Spend 6 Turn Attempts to make a spell you cast (even a 9th level spell) that has a duration, Persistant (i.e. lasts 24 hours).
Step 4: Profit!

If you want to use Divine Metamagic for Reach Spell and you already have Divine Metamagic for Persistant Spell...

Step 1: Get Reach Spell Feat
Step 2: Get Divine Metamagic (Reach Spell) Feat.
Step 3: Spend 1 Turn Attempt to make a spell you cast that has a reach of "touch" instead have a reach of "short" (or 30'... can't recall off the top of my head).
Step 4: Heal at range!

Yes, you have to buy the Divine Metamagic Feat again for every Metamagic Feat you want to be able to use this way.

Slight correction. Costs are 1 higher than CG is quoting. Otherwise, works as advertised. The reason Divine Metamagic gets so much buzz is that uses of turn undead can be amassed much more readily, and at much lower levels, than high level spell slots (and there are also fewer nifty things to do with turn undead than with high-level spell slots, so the opportunity cost of spending them is lower).

[term1nally s1ck]

The big one is that you can persist spells that you normally could not persist in any way. A level 7 spell cannot be persisted pre-epic. With DMM, it can be persisted as soon as you can cast it.

[Aotrs Commander]

DMM: Persistant Spell is very good as is (very probably too good for an average power-level game), but only becomes really, really broken if the DM allowes you the use of Nightsticks from Libirs Mortis, which effectively grant you four free turn attempts per day for each one you happen to have about your person. (Because then you Persists all your buffs, e.g. the Holy Trinity al day every day.)

I advise caution with DMM at the best of times, and I strongly advise you don't use them with Nightsticks because it'll probably peeve your DM off something rotten.

Unless they fully understand the ramifications of that and let you have it anyway, perhaps due to insanity or inexperience, in which case, may their choice of divine being help them...

[QuantumSteve]

The easiest way to fix the brokeness of DMM, IMO, is to add a clause stating you can't DMM a spell of a level you can't cast. i.e. you can't persist 9th lv spells unless you have 15th Lv slots.

[Lycanthromancer]

The easiest way to fix the brokeness of DMM, IMO, is to add a clause stating you can't DMM a spell of a level you can't cast. i.e. you can't persist 9th lv spells unless you have 15th Lv slots.Then you just get Heighten Spell and Versatile Spellcaster.

Yay flaws

[Soranar]

although, considering the requirements to get 6-7 turn undead attempts (Cha 22-24 or extra turning via feats) it's still a late combo

[QuantumSteve]

Then you just get Heighten Spell and Versatile Spellcaster.

Yay flaws

You could probably word something to prevent that, but it only gives you 1 level higher than you could cast. (If it even works with epic slots) and you need spontaneous casting and turning so it's still a lot better than the way DMM works now.

[Zeful]

Yay flaws

Flaws what now? (tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Discontinuity)

[Optimystik]

Step 1: Get Metamagic Feat (Persistant Spell is most common... yeah, you have to have Extend Spell first to get Persistant Spell.)
Step 2: Get Divine Metamagic Feat for Persistant Spell.
Step 3: Spend 6 Turn Attempts to make a spell you cast (even a 9th level spell) that has a duration, Persistant (i.e. lasts 24 hours).
Step 4: Profit!

Step 3.5: ???


although, considering the requirements to get 6-7 turn undead attempts (Cha 22-24 or extra turning via feats) it's still a late combo

You can also nab a free Extra Turning with the Planning Domain.


Slight correction. Costs are 1 higher than CG is quoting. Otherwise, works as advertised. The reason Divine Metamagic gets so much buzz is that uses of turn undead can be amassed much more readily, and at much lower levels, than high level spell slots (and there are also fewer nifty things to do with turn undead than with high-level spell slots, so the opportunity cost of spending them is lower).

More importantly, your number of turning attempts is independent of your ETL. So even if you PrC or multiclass a lot (which would nerf your turning to hell and back), it won't affect your DMM in any way.

[Lycanthromancer]

How many PrCs grant both full divine casting and turning attempts?

[term1nally s1ck]

Undeath domain grants extra turning, not Planning.

Planning gives Extend spell.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

How many PrCs grant both full divine casting and turning attempts?

You wouldn't really need turning attempts from the PrC, because you already have them with a one-level dip in Cleric.

Radiant Servant of Cheese springs powerfully to mind to qualify for the prerequisites you mentioned.

[Lycanthromancer]

You wouldn't really need turning attempts from the PrC, because you already have them with a one-level dip in Cleric.

Radiant Servant of Cheese springs powerfully to mind to qualify for the prerequisites you mentioned.I meant PrCs that give you MORE turning attempts, for divine metamagic overdose.

[Optimystik]

How many PrCs grant both full divine casting and turning attempts?

By "Turning attempts," do you mean uses/day, or Effective Turning Level?

The former is based only on your charisma score at the time you learn the Turn Undead ability and has nothing to do with your level in classes that grant/advance turning.

The latter determines your effectiveness at actually turning, which is for chumps :smalltongue:

The exceptions to that rule are PrCs that grant special turning abilities with a different counter, such as RSoP's super-turning, as Shneekey said. (I think that's the only one, but I'm not sure.)

EDIT: Can Druids/Archivists gain access to DMM via the Bone Talisman (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) spell?

[term1nally s1ck]

Well, you can often grab turn from a PrC, while still keeping The ACF Destroy undead from the cleric.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well, you can often grab turn from a PrC, while still keeping The ACF Destroy undead from the cleric.

Why would you *want* to have that ACF if you are going to be using DMM shenanigans?

[Starbuck_II]

I'd wager 6 have turn undead. I've found 2 perfect ones and 3 almost perfect.
RSoP 10/10
Sacred Exocist 10/10
Master of Radiance is 4/5
Master of Shrouds 9/10
Sacred Purifier 4/5

And No Lycan, you don't get extra turning if you gain the extra turning ability a second time: the rules makes them stack for level not useage.

[Keld Denar]

The former is based only on your charisma score at the time you learn the Turn Undead ability and has nothing to do with your level in classes that grant/advance turning.


This isn't correct. Its dependant on your Cha score atm. If you temporarily increase your Cha score, you temporarily gain more uses of TU. If you put on a Cloak of Charisma +6, you'd gain the ability to turn undead 3 more times per day. Every time your Cha changes, you compare how many TU attempts you've used already to how many you'd have. If its less than the number of TU you've used, you can use more.

[Douglas]

Why would you *want* to have that ACF if you are going to be using DMM shenanigans?
Because both of them can be used for DMM and they have separate uses per day. A character with 18 charisma and just Turn Undead has 7 uses per day, enough to Persist one spell. A character with 18 charisma, Turn Undead, and Destroy Undead, has 7 uses of each of Turn Undead and Destroy Undead for 14 uses total, enough to Persist two spells. Additional uses from Extra Turning, Nightsticks, and so forth are also doubled. If you can add Rebuke Undead to the mix, you get triple uses.

[The Cat Goddess]

How many PrCs grant both full divine casting and turning attempts?

Sacred Exorcist, for one...

[Optimystik]

This isn't correct. Its dependant on your Cha score atm. If you temporarily increase your Cha score, you temporarily gain more uses of TU. If you put on a Cloak of Charisma +6, you'd gain the ability to turn undead 3 more times per day. Every time your Cha changes, you compare how many TU attempts you've used already to how many you'd have. If its less than the number of TU you've used, you can use more.

Indeed, I worded that badly.

Regardless, you gain the same amount of turning attempts whether you go Sacred Exorcist or Divine Oracle. One advances turning, one doesn't, but Turning attempts only care about your Cha score.


Because both of them can be used for DMM and they have separate uses per day. A character with 18 charisma and just Turn Undead has 7 uses per day, enough to Persist one spell. A character with 18 charisma, Turn Undead, and Destroy Undead, has 7 uses of each of Turn Undead and Destroy Undead for 14 uses total, enough to Persist two spells. Additional uses from Extra Turning, Nightsticks, and so forth are also doubled. If you can add Rebuke Undead to the mix, you get triple uses.

Ooh, where's that ACF?