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View Full Version : Why is Kelemvor neutral? [FR] [3.5?]



deuxhero
2010-04-27, 03:39 PM
This has always confused me. Isn't he holding the souls of every single mortal hostage (every human(oid) one, not sure sure how races with their own death gods, like the dragons, work. Does anyone know?) to ensure him and his compatriots remain powerful. How is he not evil?

kamikasei
2010-04-27, 03:43 PM
I assume you're referring to the Wall of the Faithless?

While I think that thing is an abomination, I suppose the simplest point to make is that one can do evil while being neutral or even good. Whether the Wall is a necessary evil or not I don't have the Realms knowledge to say, but I think from Kelemvor's point of view keeping it around is, because he can't do away with it without screwing up the entire multiverse.

arguskos
2010-04-27, 03:43 PM
Because his role isn't actually evil. He simply judges the dead and sends them to their fate as decreed by the universal rules. He didn't write them, and didn't even want his damn position.

Yes, the wall of the faithless SUCKS. However, he is not the first death god to employ it, as I believe Jergal used it, as it is the decreed fate for the faithless in the Realms, as laid down by the overgod, Ao.

SolkaTruesilver
2010-04-27, 03:45 PM
Yes, the wall of the faithless SUCKS. However, he is not the first death god to employ it, as I believe Jergal used it, as it is the decreed fate for the faithless in the Realms, as laid down by the overgod, Ao.

Are we sure the Wall of Faithless was created by Ao, and not by the deities to make sure they get ennough prayers and followers?

The Rose Dragon
2010-04-27, 03:46 PM
Because his role isn't actually evil. He simply judges the dead and sends them to their fate as decreed by the universal rules. He didn't write them, and didn't even want his damn position.

Yes, the wall of the faithless SUCKS. However, he is not the first death god to employ it, as I believe Jergal used it, as it is the decreed fate for the faithless in the Realms, as laid down by the overgod, Ao.

Pretty much, though the power level of a god was only tied to his worshipers after the Time of Troubles, due to gods abandoning their responsibilities over Aber-Toril.


Are we sure the Wall of Faithless was created by Ao, and not by the deities to make sure they get ennough prayers and followers?

It existed before worshipers were the divine source of power for gods, so yes, we're pretty much sure.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-27, 03:46 PM
This has always confused me. Isn't he holding the souls of every single mortal hostage (every human(oid) one, not sure sure how races with their own death gods, like the dragons, work. Does anyone know?) to ensure him and his compatriots remain powerful. How is he not evil?

He had the heart of a pally while mortal. He us fair but cold like Law.
His clergy set out to cure diseases and defend people from monsters so that folk do not die before their time.
He is more leniet to the dead than the previous death gods.

Everyone must be judged when they die even dragons. It just must happen.

arguskos
2010-04-27, 03:49 PM
Are we sure the Wall of Faithless was created by Ao, and not by the deities to make sure they get ennough prayers and followers?
I don't honestly recall, though I am DAMN SURE Kelemvor did not create the Wall of the Faithless.

I mean, Kelemvor is more akin to Jergal than the truly evil Myrkul: he's more dispassionate about his role, and more about the shepherding of the dead than punishment.

kamikasei
2010-04-27, 03:52 PM
I thought Kelemvor actually did away with the Wall for a while, and everyone just went to the plane appropriate to their alignment, but this was too disruptive because mortals no longer feared death or the gods so the more senior deities brought him up on charges of Conduct Unbecoming a Greater God?


Everyone must be judged when they die even dragons. It just must happen.

I don't think it's the judgment so much as the "worship us or go in THE BOX" bit that people find objectionable.

LibraryOgre
2010-04-27, 03:56 PM
This has always confused me. Isn't he holding the souls of every single mortal hostage (every human(oid) one, not sure sure how races with their own death gods, like the dragons, work. Does anyone know?) to ensure him and his compatriots remain powerful. How is he not evil?

Because, when gods are real, not believing in them is thanklessness.

kamikasei
2010-04-27, 03:58 PM
Because, when gods are real, not believing in them is thanklessness.

Generally, ingratitude is not considered justification to erase someone from existence through torment lasting centuries.

Douglas
2010-04-27, 04:02 PM
A quick google search turns up that the Wall was created by Myrkul.

As I recall from the conversation near the end of Mask of the Betrayer, Kelemvor actually would like to take down the Wall but says that reversing a god's judgment would set too great a precedent and lead to all sorts of chaos and disruptions in other things. From a rather less canon and more metagame standpoint, I've heard or read that Obsidian actually did intend for the game to end with the Wall permanently removed, but WotC heard about this late in development and issued a declaration that Obsidian did not have permission to make that great a change in canon Forgotten Realms cosmology. Thus, in the short time they had left before release they put together the best BS explanation they could come up with for why Kelemvor wouldn't allow it and shipped it.

SolkaTruesilver
2010-04-27, 04:04 PM
A quick google search turns up that the Wall was created by Myrkul.

As I recall from the conversation near the end of Mask of the Betrayer, Kelemvor actually would like to take down the Wall but says that reversing a god's judgment would set too great a precedent and lead to all sorts of chaos and disruptions in other things. From a rather less canon and more metagame standpoint, I've heard or read that Obsidian actually did intend for the game to end with the Wall permanently removed, but WotC heard about this late in development and issued a declaration that Obsidian did not have permission to make that great a change in canon Forgotten Realms cosmology. Thus, in the short time they had left before release they put together the best BS explanation they could come up with for why Kelemvor wouldn't allow it and shipped it.

You know, I can get behind that explanation. It's not that "BS".

On the other hand, it states that FR cosmology is acting under Common Law :smallfrown:

Tavar
2010-04-27, 04:07 PM
But don't gods reverse each others decisions all the time?

Optimystik
2010-04-27, 04:09 PM
ITT: We try to make sense out of Forgotten Realms.

I presume that if the wall was erected under Myrkul's watch, then Jergal predated it. What was the system under his tenure?

Starbuck_II
2010-04-27, 04:09 PM
Nope, they use loopholes because it makes a bad precedent. You can't trust your decisions will do anything if everyone and their mother will just take them away.

SolkaTruesilver
2010-04-27, 04:10 PM
But don't gods reverse each others decisions all the time?

Not the same thing. In that case, Kelemvor is acting as Judge of the Dead. A single function has to keep going, specially when you are Lawful.

It's like if New Mystra would change Old Mystra's rulings regarding magic. Too much causality problems.

Douglas
2010-04-27, 04:13 PM
But don't gods reverse each others decisions all the time?
Maybe it was because this one would be done by the "same"* god as gave the decision and would be specifically instigated by a mortal?

* Same portfolio, powers, home, and so forth. You know, the important stuff. Which does not include the actual personality making the decisions.

Yeah, I'm not buying it. I really think WotC made a poor decision on this one.

Optimystik
2010-04-27, 04:13 PM
It's like if New Mystra would change Old Mystra's rulings regarding magic. Too much causality problems.

Not the best example; Mystra did change Mystryl's rules.

I see what you're getting at though.

Tavar
2010-04-27, 04:16 PM
Wasn't the other god Evil, though? And cast down, somehow?

LibraryOgre
2010-04-27, 04:17 PM
Generally, ingratitude is not considered justification to erase someone from existence through torment lasting centuries.

Eh, it works for real-world religions. Why not for made-up ones?

Person_Man
2010-04-27, 04:18 PM
Kelemvor is a main character in 5 novels (the Avatar Series (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Avatar_Series)), and is in numerous D&D supplements spanning 2 editions (maybe 3 - I haven't read any 4E Forgotten Realms stuff). He has a pretty complex story, and has done some Good and some Evil things. Thus his Neutral alignment.

The Rose Dragon
2010-04-27, 04:20 PM
Wasn't the other god Evil, though? And cast down, somehow?

Myrkul? He was killed, rather than cast down. Before Myrkul, there was Jergal, who one day decided to give up his powers to three mortals. Those mortals were Bane, Myrkul and Bhaal, who became the gods of tyranny, the dead and death (especially assassination) respectively. Malar got nothing, becaue he cheated. Of course, this is an oversimplification, but you get the gist of it.

Then, Myrkul, Bane and Bhaal were all killed and their powers passed to Cyric, who later was driven mad by an artifact he created, so Mystra, who was Midnight as a mortal and Kelemvor's lover, suggested he be raised from the dead and granted the portfolio of the dead and death, which led to Kelemvor becoming the god of death.

deuxhero
2010-04-27, 04:50 PM
As I recall from the conversation near the end of Mask of the Betrayer, Kelemvor actually would like to take down the Wall but says that reversing a god's judgment would set too great a precedent and lead to all sorts of chaos and disruptions in other things.

Which is stupid, because he is you know, his successor.

krossbow
2010-04-27, 04:58 PM
Kelemvor Was basically forced to be a jerkass by the other gods because being a benevolent being who Rewarded the just and punished the wicked Ruined their monopolies. When kelemvor rewarded the brave and Pure, and punished the evil and cowardly, The evil god's were no longer able to persuade the evil individuals that the could get away with all the crap they were doing, and the good individuals put their faith in a god who finally seemed to care about them rather than keeping their own power base in line, thus stealing followers from the non-evil deities.


All the other gods got together and, in a rare moment of agreement, put him on trial for this (Being guilty of incompetence by humanity, a fancy way of saying "Taking power away from the gods"), following which he was basically forced to turn from being a Benevolent individual to being As bland and uncaring as you can get to maintain the status quo.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-27, 05:05 PM
That is what wiki says, but that sounds kinda stupid.

Other gods: "Hey, the evil gods can't lie anymore! Robble robble robble!"
K "And this is my problem... how? I'm just following the letter of the law."
Other gods: "Evil have rights to followers too! Robble robble robble!"

deuxhero
2010-04-27, 05:06 PM
Exactly. He is holding your soul hostage for power.

arguskos
2010-04-27, 05:08 PM
Exactly. He is holding your soul hostage for power.
Not by his choice. Or did you miss where he tried to change things, and got bitchslapped by EVERYONE ELSE? How is this Kelemvor's fault?

deuxhero
2010-04-27, 05:12 PM
Which would make every deity in the setting evil (which would be pretty interesting...)

kamikasei
2010-04-27, 05:16 PM
Or it just means that being party to one collective evil does not necessarily mean you're evil-aligned.

Zeful
2010-04-27, 05:40 PM
All the other gods got together and, in a rare moment of agreement, put him on trial for this (Being guilty of incompetence by humanity, a fancy way of saying "Taking power away from the gods"), following which he was basically forced to turn from being a Benevolent individual to being As bland and uncaring as you can get to maintain the status quo.

They also put Cyric and Mystra on trial for the same reasons (Mystra was denying magic to Cyric and Tempus' priests (or all of their followers I can't remember). Cyric was doing nothing to further any portion of his portfolio, though his charge was later changed to Incompetence by Insanity). Cyric was the one who got the trial started and called into evidence of his charge a book that would have turned all the other gods into his followers.

krossbow
2010-04-27, 06:55 PM
That is what wiki says, but that sounds kinda stupid.

Other gods: "Hey, the evil gods can't lie anymore! Robble robble robble!"
K "And this is my problem... how? I'm just following the letter of the law."
Other gods: "Evil have rights to followers too! Robble robble robble!"

Well, it was also hurting the Good gods too. Since Kelemvor was doing alot more good for the people than any of the other gods had ever done, they basically said "F*%& you pelor/other good gods/ect." and switched to worshiping kelemvor instead, since the new upstart god has changed things for the better in less time than any of them ever had.


It was a rather selfish act on all of their parts really.

Agrippa
2010-04-27, 07:02 PM
Well, it was also hurting the Good gods too. Since Kelemvor was doing alot more good for the people than any of the other gods had ever done, they basically said "F*%& you pelor/other good gods/ect." and switched to worshiping kelemvor instead, since the new upstart god has changed things for the better in less time than any of them ever had.


It was a rather selfish act on all of their parts really.

Actually Pelor is from Oerth, not Faerun.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-27, 07:31 PM
Actually Pelor is from Oerth, not Faerun.The Burning Hate is beyond your silly 'interdimensional boundaries', mortal.

Coidzor
2010-04-27, 07:40 PM
Which would make every deity in the setting evil (which would be pretty interesting...)

Well, the only decent way to end up in FR is as a god. All deaths lead to unpleasant times as a brainwashed/mind-deleted slave, raw material for the fiends/mind-deleted slave to the fiends as a fiend, or being broken down into one's constituent parts in order to propagate the multiverse.

The afterlife is such a crapshoot that the only punishment they can come up with in order to ensure deity-worship is "nonexistence."

Sydonai
2010-04-27, 07:46 PM
The Burning Hate is beyond your silly 'interdimensional boundaries', mortal.

Only Lolth and the non-human deities(and some from Mulhorand) are inter-planar.

Archpaladin Zousha
2010-04-27, 07:56 PM
Only Lolth and the non-human deities(and some from Mulhorand) are inter-planar.

What about Tyr? Wasn't he the original Norse god who somehow came to Faerun and was integrated into the pantheon?

Optimystik
2010-04-27, 08:01 PM
It was a rather selfish act on all of their parts really.

Status Quo is God(s) (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StatusQuoIsGod)

But Eberron does this right - leave the gods out of it, and you eliminate the problem of making them either idiots or bastards to keep things from changing.


They also put Cyric and Mystra on trial for the same reasons (Mystra was denying magic to Cyric and Tempus' priests (or all of their followers I can't remember). Cyric was doing nothing to further any portion of his portfolio, though his charge was later changed to Incompetence by Insanity). Cyric was the one who got the trial started and called into evidence of his charge a book that would have turned all the other gods into his followers.

Crazy or not, you've got to admire his chutzpah.

And he did get Mask to read his magical fanfiction. Yes, that Mask!


Only Lolth and the non-human deities(and some from Mulhorand) are inter-planar.

The line is pretty blurry there. Some of them are the same in other settings, just with different names; that includes the "human deities."For example, 4e has canonized that the elven goddesses Sehanine Moonbow, Hanali Celanil and Aerdrie Faenya were actually Selune, Sune and Akadi respectively.

NeoVid
2010-04-27, 08:09 PM
Direct reply to OP without reading rest of thread: Canonically, Kelemvor started out Lawful Good. He dropped to Lawful Neutral by agreeing to continue the use of the Wall of the Faithless.

Optimystik
2010-04-27, 08:15 PM
Direct reply to OP without reading rest of thread: Canonically, Kelemvor started out Lawful Good. He dropped to Lawful Neutral by agreeing to continue the use of the Wall of the Faithless.

Hilariously, the gods who forced him to do so suffered no such degradation to their alignments.

krossbow
2010-04-27, 08:24 PM
Hilariously, the gods who forced him to do so suffered no such degradation to their alignments.

The thing is, the gods are delusional, not really malicious. Godhood in the D&D setting is basically a form of madness; once one ascends they eventually become convinced of their own infallibility and their world views. Even those of the same alignments, while having their hearts in the right place, will be regarded as sorrowfully misguided, while YOU(The deitiy) Know what truth is.

This is the cause of the status quo muck up. Every single God believes in only their view of the universe, and the infallibility of this view, and are forever shackled with this. They cannot Cooperate towards a compromise with other gods, because to do so is to renounce what they "Know" is the true way to fix everything.

Gods play the long game; they forget all about what the humans want, and what it is thats best for them, because a god knows better; a being who becomes a god will forget what it is to be human. Those who do not succumb to this madness naturally will have this forced upon them by the other deities (as happened with kelemvor).


To explain how the "Good" gods could do this to kelemvor and still whole heartedly believe they were in the right: Kelemvor was reckless in their view; he was pushing forward in a chaotic course that threatened to upset every single Plan you'd ever laid for the greater good.
By Putting Humans ahead of Gods, Kelemvor had threatened your very power base, and would put YOU the only truly important being in the universe (for your plans are the only pure, true ones to help things in the long run) in Danger. Humans come in the millions; gods number in the few, and as such it is your view that you are inherently superior and more valuable than them or the fleeting happiness kelemvor may have granted them.
As such, for the Greater good, and as a neccecary evil, you would HAVE to save the universe by Slapping Kelemvor down until he was obedient, so as to preserve your plans and principles, allowing you to push forward to the truth that you believe is the only thing worth anything in the universe.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-27, 08:24 PM
Hilariously, the gods who forced him to do so suffered no such degradation to their alignments.Because Ao is a big fat jerk.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-27, 08:28 PM
As such, for the Greater good, and as a neccecary evil, you would HAVE to save the universe by Slapping Kelemvor down until he was obedient, so as to preserve your plans and principles, allowing you to push forward to the truth that you believe is the only thing worth anything in the universe.

So it was all about pride? The one human god had to be be dehumanized.

nyarlathotep
2010-04-27, 08:30 PM
Delusions may excuse one from becoming evil, but it does not allow you to still be good.

Optimystik
2010-04-27, 08:32 PM
Delusions may excuse one from becoming evil, but it does not allow you to still be good.

I was planning a much longer post, but yeah, basically this.

Necessary evil? Still evil. And we can't even say the Wall was necessary. Its absence would starve as many evil gods as good ones, and as far as I'm concerned, they're all evil anyway.

Faerun has an uncomfortable amount of deific common ground with OotS.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-27, 08:34 PM
<...> as far as I'm concerned, they're all evil anyway.

Faerun has an uncomfortable amount of deific common ground with OotS.QTF. Gods in general are big fat jerks, otherwise they'd try to actually do nice things, not screw everyone else over 'for the greater good' (which never really is).

Da'Shain
2010-04-27, 08:35 PM
I mean ... the Wall obviously isn't necessary, or else the world couldn't have existed before Myrkul.

The Wall is merely a convenience for the gods, which is why it's such an abomination.

But yeah, I thought that Ao basically came down and said "Keep the wall or you're out of here." I knew nothing about this whole trial business.

Zeful
2010-04-27, 08:35 PM
Necessary evil? Still evil. And we can't even say the Wall was necessary. Its absence would starve as many evil gods as good ones, and as far as I'm concerned, they're all evil anyway.

Faerun has an uncomfortable amount of deific common ground with OotS.

One of the many reasons not to play in Faerun.

krossbow
2010-04-27, 08:38 PM
i don't agree with such reasoning either, but it seems to be the way that the deity system was set up for that universe, as their are heavy, heavy doses of neccecary evil all over the place.

Agrippa
2010-04-27, 08:47 PM
QTF. Gods in general are big fat jerks, otherwise they'd try to actually do nice things, not screw everyone else over 'for the greater good' (which never really is).

How (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Heward) ab (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Celestian)out (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Keoghtom) these (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Phaulkon) guys (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Murlynd)? Do any of them seem like jerks to you?

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-27, 08:54 PM
How (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Heward) ab (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Celestian)out (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Keoghtom) these (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Phaulkon) guys (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Murlynd)? Do any of them seem like jerks to you?They're gods. Q.E.D.

Keld Denar
2010-04-27, 08:58 PM
<3 Greyhawk pantheon. It kicks the FR Pantheon right in the jubbles and takes its bicycle. In Greyhawk, its not so much the gods themselves that hold all of the power, but their clergies, and not through pure divine might, but rather political influence. Its badassery by proxy, which is MUCH more believeable and enjoyable.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-27, 08:59 PM
How (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Heward) ab (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Celestian)out (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Keoghtom) these (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Phaulkon) guys (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Murlynd)? Do any of them seem like jerks to you?

To be fair, they are lesser gods who don't have as much power.

But Murlynd is a good guy who never lost humanity as a god.
Heward has disappeared so one wonder if he still exists.
Celestian just travels never staying in one place too long (like the old Incredible Hulk)
Phaulkon protects flying creatures (not that many dangers to defend).
Keoghtom travels just like Celestian.

Optimystik
2010-04-27, 09:25 PM
Eberron is my favorite. Canonized pantheon worship/domain choice, and no meddling. And most "clerics" in the setting are actually Adepts, bringing their power level down quite a bit - true clerics are generally PCs or fairly highly placed in the church.

Alleran
2010-04-27, 11:11 PM
So it was all about pride? The one human god had to be be dehumanized.
Gods in FR must, above all, maintain the Balance. That is their task, and the reason Ao created them in the first place (he, as the Overgod, delegates the jobs to them, but remains the ultimate arbiter and slaps them down if necessary to see that they do their jobs, which he did during the Time of Troubles).

Mystra (the new one) found this out the hard way, when she ascended to godhood and was, for a time, much more favouring to nurturing and healing than she was war and death (which got Tempus annoyed at her, leading to an argument where she blocked him from accessing magic in Realmspace - because she literally is magic, she would be the most powerful of all the gods if it weren't for Ao telling her to split up her power between Azuth and the rest of her Chosen, who collectively hold about half of her power). Because she wasn't being fair in how she administered her duties and was neglecting the Balance, the other gods stepped in and put her down as well. She can personally be whatever alignment she likes (Midnight-Mystra is NG, while her predecessor was LN and Mystryl was IIRC CN). However, she has to perform her duties in accordance with the Balance, which means she treats everybody equally as far as access to the Weave of magic goes.

Now, she prefers to have good servants, because Mystran doctrine is the spreading, nurturing and growing of Art (magic) across Toril. This is also why she doesn't have evil Chosen - her predecessor found out the hard way that evil Chosen have a tendency to think of themselves above all, and don't spread magic but instead hoard it for themselves (e.g. "No, no, they're not ready for this..." "But you said that a hundred years back, when DO you think they'll be ready?!"), and since she can't compel her Chosen to do anything (they can withhold the power they have from her if they choose - Mystran Chosen are very different to the Chosen of other gods), this can lead to all sorts of problems. However, she still has evil priests, because she accepts the alignment of her predecessor as well (her chief priest in Waterdeep in Faerun is a LE necromancer, for example). She herself is NG, but the way she administers to all who use the Weave equally is TN. And, of course, she has her Chosen do some nasty things when necessary (assassinations, murder, and thefts - at one point or another, all of these have been necessary to help the spreading of magic).

Getting back to Kelemvor, though, more or less the same sort of thing goes for him. Because he was still too human in how he judged people after they died, he was messing up the Balance. As a result, he had to change and administer his duties in a manner more befitting a god and a keeper of the Balance. So now, he doesn't punish the wicked or reward the virtuous who end up with him - they all live together in featureless gray, and the Wall of the Faithless helps that.

He could still be LG and administer his duties as LN/TN (death being inevitable is something of a lawful concept, after all). However, his actions and personal reflection back in the Avatar series led him to believe that the other gods were in fact right, and even Cyric had been in his own way (Midnight-Mystra didn't get it for a bit longer, though), and that death was merely something that had to be inevitable, the natural passage of things. Not something to be avoided (hence his great dislike/hatred for the undead), but also not something to be feared, either (he sometimes sends avatars to help shepherd dead souls to the next world as a kind of psychopomp, IIRC). Just... natural (which, to be fair, is a whole lot better than Myrkul had conducted himself, and is somewhat more in line with Jergal with the exception of Kel's view on the undead).

So basically, his reflections and changing viewpoint on death (and how he should be Lord Death) led to him dropping from LG to LN, and this was accompanied by the change in his realm. Other good gods, like Lathander, partly remain good because they conduct their part of the Balance by being good, and others (e.g. Bane) partly remain evil because that's how they help the Balance, but Kelemvor and Mystra have Death and Magic as their parts of the Balance, both of which are generally neutral in scope and need to be treated as such to best keep things from going all out of whack.

Set
2010-04-27, 11:28 PM
I vaguely remember in the first or second Time of Troubles book, Kelemvor was an awful jerk to Midnight, and it was Cyric who was the understanding guy who talked her through it, bringing up a personally uncomfortable story about his own past that he'd never told anyone before because of how vulnerable it made him feel by way of saying, 'Yeah, it sucks. Been there. I feel ya.'

Then the next book came out, and it felt like it was written by someone completely different. Cyric was Evil For No Good Reason, and his complex characterization got thrown out for mustachio-twirling, while Kelemvor seemed to become a good guy by default (without having actually done anything to earn that, it was like his character sheet got rewritten with a new alignment, but the player didn't bother changing his behavior to reflect that).

The characterization whiplash left me wanting to wear a neck-brace and consult a lawyer...

Later in the Time of Troubles, Lleira, goddess of trickery, deception and illusion, got invited to a dark and lonely place by an evil god who had just backstabbed the god of murder to death to become a god, and said, 'Come alone? Okay!' and got herself ganked like a wide-eyed child getting into a van with a stranger because he promised her candy.

There is no candy in the van, Lleira! Run!

Cyrics next stroke of editorially-mandated 'genius' would have been to push Thor off a cliff, after saying, 'Hey, can I hold that hammer for a second?' but someone realized that A) having all of his plans come from Wile E Coyote would get old and B) Thor didn't exist in the Forgotten Realms and C) they were out of weed.

Zeful
2010-04-27, 11:36 PM
Gods in FR must, above all, maintain the Balance.

He could still be LG and administer his duties as LN/TN (death being inevitable is something of a lawful concept, after all).

These two sentences contradict each other.

Adherence to any kind of "balance" is neutral behavior. Actions are the greatest dictator of alignment, which means Kelevmor has to be either CN, LN or TN. He can't be LG because that would mean doing exactly what got him in trouble in the first place. The same goes for Mystra, an LG god of magic would deny powers to those that would use it to sow chaos or harm the people (Anarchists and Nihilists wouldn't get to cast spells. At all.) which goes against the "balance".

In order to be a major god in Faerun, you have to have a Neutral alignment. Especially if you're domain includes something big like death or magic or war.

Also AO is a big hypocrite. He would have let Cyric's Journal/Mindcontrol Fanfiction enslave the other gods, destroying the balance of Faerun. When Tempus (or Sune maybe, I can't remember) actually brings this up AO simply says something along the lines of "Tough, you should have thought of that before charging him with incompetence."
That's not balance at all.

Crucible: The Trial of Cyric The Mad is the reason I hate Faerun with a burning passion.

Alleran
2010-04-27, 11:53 PM
These two sentences contradict each other.

Adherence to any kind of "balance" is neutral behavior. Actions are the greatest dictator of alignment, which means Kelevmor has to be either CN, LN or TN. He can't be LG because that would mean doing exactly what got him in trouble in the first place. The same goes for Mystra, an LG god of magic would deny powers to those that would use it to sow chaos or harm the people (Anarchists and Nihilists wouldn't get to cast spells. At all.) which goes against the "balance".
If Mystra can be NG (she has never been LG) and yet administer her duties in a TN fashion (or maybe LN, actually, given that after she was slapped down by the other gods she reverted to passing out magic just like her predecessor had, yet kept her NG alignment) without reverting to TN, then it stands to reason that Kelemvor could be LG and do his job in a LN/TN fashion.

To expand on Mystra, she is the Weave (as in, a direct Mystra = Weave; she doesn't just govern it, it is actually a part of her), and controls it completely, but doesn't deny magic to evil beings despite her good alignment (getting her Chosen to manipulate said evil beings to make them serve her ideology doesn't really count, IMO). This was the very thing that Tempus called her out for doing in the fourth Avatar book - her bias towards good (specifically, he pointed out that wizards were finding it more and more difficult to wield offensive magic, thus affecting its employment in war) was forcing the other gods to work overtime in trying to correct things, and when she did go back to being neutral in how she administered her duties, she didn't drop to LN or TN. Even though her actions should have (she went back to doing what the previous Mystra did) by that logic, she stayed NG.

It might be at odds with the concept of actions dictating your alignment, but it seems to be the case.

EDIT: It also occurs to me that gods can't really act against their portfolios, either - when Oghma banned all knowledge of the location of the Cyrinishad from the other deities (including himself), he was walking a very fine line, and the other deities even say as much to him. Not sure how that might play into things.

nyarlathotep
2010-04-27, 11:55 PM
To be honest I have never heard a good reason that "the balance" is something worth protecting. I could understand if it were say the balance of power between nations, but it isn't. There is no reason that one should favor to have any evil at all, and if this is all because it is mandated by Ao then the deities of good should be working to overthrow him.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-28, 12:01 AM
To be honest I have never heard a good reason that "the balance" is something worth protecting. I could understand if it were say the balance of power between nations, but it isn't. There is no reason that one should favor to have any evil at all, and if this is all because it is mandated by Ao then the deities of good should be working to overthrow him.Considering how often Evil gods and their servants try to destroy All Of Reality, the Good and Neutral gods should be teaming up.

Stupid Ao.

Alleran
2010-04-28, 12:02 AM
To be honest I have never heard a good reason that "the balance" is something worth protecting. I could understand if it were say the balance of power between nations, but it isn't. There is no reason that one should favor to have any evil at all, and if this is all because it is mandated by Ao then the deities of good should be working to overthrow him.
Overthrowing Ao is kind of impossible. He's far beyond even the collective strength of the Torilian deities, and created them in the first place. As we saw back in the start of the Avatar series, when he yanked all the gods together, then cast them down collectively, and there was nothing they could do about it - he even barred them from returning to the planes.

And Ao is a jerk at times. In the Shadow of the Avatar trilogy, when Elminster tried to interfere with Midnight's growth into the new Mystra (to help her along as quickly as possible in order to return stability to magic), Ao stopped him, removed all the memories and assistance he had given her, sent her right back to Toril where she started, then told Elminster off for interfering with his testing of Midnight.

Coidzor
2010-04-28, 12:22 AM
So is Ao more Gygax or more just WoTC/the owner of the property?

krossbow
2010-04-28, 12:24 AM
basically, AO is a douche with far too much power to fight

Alleran
2010-04-28, 12:32 AM
So is Ao more Gygax or more just WoTC/the owner of the property?
It's hypothesised by some that the "greater being" that Ao answers to (seen only in the final paragraph of the third Avatar series book) is in fact the DM.

To go on a brief tangent, in my cosmology Ao is a rank 23-24 overgod (which in my own ranking system is near the top of the single-sphere overgods, who range from 21 to 24, with 25+ being given over to multiversal definitions of various things, and 30 being the absolute highest and sole provenance of the "almighty" supreme One Deity Above All Others). But in more Realmsian terms, Ao is normally whatever WotC wants him to be at the time. AFAIK, he wasn't originally a part of the world that Ed Greenwood created.

Aharon
2010-04-28, 02:14 AM
@Set
That may be because the books were written by different Authors. They used the same pen name, but the first and second were written by Scott Ciencin, the third and fifth by Troy Denning and the fourth by James Lowder.