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imp_fireball
2010-04-27, 11:39 PM
Int and Wis 10 is average, thus 100 IQ.

Int is directly related to IQ, hence for every point of Int, you can go 4 points of IQ either way.

Whereas, Wis is only partly related to IQ, having to do with spatial reasoning, general thoughtfulness and creativity. Thus it is only 2 points of IQ either way. Note that IQ also does not directly relate to perceptive capability - IQ isn't an absolute measurement of someone's mental faculties and nor does it measure charisma.

Hence, 18 Int and 10 Wis = 136 IQ, 18 Int and 18 Wis = 152 IQ.

3 Int and 10 Wis = 72 IQ. 3 Int and 18 Wis = 88 IQ, and 3 Int and 3 Wis = 56 IQ. To enroll in special ed, one must take the appropriate flaws.

IQ is exponential. This is obviously a rough estimate, and I think it provides better reasoning then wizard's totally linear 'Int Score = IQ score x 10' which doesn't even consider wisdom.

To be a genius, you must have 140 IQ or above. The other 'genius barrier' is 180 IQ. To reach 140 IQ through Int alone, you need at least 20 Int and no Wis penalty. To reach 180 IQ, you need some pretty loony scores.

In my opinion, there is no such term as 'super genius'. The human mind may be able to comprehend many things, but it can only put to action so many things. Much of science, ie., boils down to work ethic.

Genius isn't a label either. It's merely an assessment of one's capabilities. Anyone can do anything, it's just that the smarter people accomplish that specific thing more quickly and the wise people determine what has to be done more quickly.
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So that's my hypothesis. Anyone agree/disagree?

NOTE: This was taken from another thread to prevent it from burning to the ground with the fact that it was off-topic.

Townopolis
2010-04-28, 12:39 AM
Interesting and potentially quite useful. I like it.

Just a note, some of your math seems wrong.
To me, it seems that 18int/10wis should be 100+(8*4)+(0*2)=132, double 18's should be 100+(8*4)+(8*2)=148, and double 3's should be 100-(7*4)-(7*2)=58.

Iceforge
2010-04-28, 02:31 AM
Well, that logic could make sense, until you take a further look at the various things that are tied together with those stats, specificly that skill points depend on your intelligence, which sort of goes against your reasoning in the end.

In DnD, your intelligence is also a measurement of how much you are already able to do, and not merely a measurement of how quick you are to understand something logically, like IQ would approximately be a measurement of.

Anyway, I like the idea.

There is also the problem of age in your assertion.

IQ is basicly a non-changing factor after the age of 18 for most people; It is possible to increase of decrease your IQ, sure, but for most people, that does not happen and it remains pretty much the same.

This gives a list of problems:

1) In DnD, aging increases both Wisdom and Intelligence, which means increased IQ automatically

2) I know my IQ (not sharing), and if I had to divide it into Intelligence/Wisdom, I would most likely put the majority into Intelligence; I am young (24); I think fast, but would not call myself "wise" (think that would be insulting to people who had studied subjects for longer than I have even lived)
As I age, I am pretty sure my self image of how to divide it between intelligence and wisdom will change, as I become more "wise" with age; Seeing how my IQ should not change, that would mean my Intelligence should drop 1 point for every 2 point of Wisdom I obtain, which would feel rather silly.

nedz
2010-04-28, 02:36 AM
I've generall viewed Int as acedemic learning ability, whereas Wis is Judgement.

But in terms of mechanics, an interesting comparison is to look at Search and Spot. Both of these skills do basically similiar things but one is based off Int and the other Wis.

Spiryt
2010-04-28, 02:42 AM
Quite interesting idea.

imp_fireball
2010-04-28, 02:58 AM
I've generall viewed Int as acedemic learning ability, whereas Wis is Judgement.

But in terms of mechanics, an interesting comparison is to look at Search and Spot. Both of these skills do basically similiar things but one is based off Int and the other Wis.

Well search is all about deducing, whereas spot is just perception (notice something in your peripheral that you judge to be out of the ordinary).

That's the reason. Otherwise, if you were using wis to search then you'd be judging where an object could be based on what makes sense to you and most likely might end up biased to the point that you can't find the object because reality contradicts bias (hence, deduction is required).

In layman's terms, using wis is like asking 'why would this object not be here? Well theoretically it should be located somewhere else because that's the only other place I would store the object and no one I know of cares about the object besides me and I've never had a history of people stealing my things so if it's not in that location, then finding it is hopeless' - all about induction and forethought.

Int would be 'if the object is not here then the probability of it being in another location is increased, hence I should keep looking'.

BobVosh
2010-04-28, 03:22 AM
I like it, although the last theory of int to IQ I saw was IQ=50+5*INT. Which means the lowest you can be is 65 IQ and still be a functional adventurer. Which seems about right. Note that this really only works for humanoids, but so does yours really.

imp_fireball
2010-04-29, 05:30 AM
There is also the problem of age in your assertion.

Well, OotS jokes about how the elderly actually have increased senses over the young adventurers because they get an age related Wis bonus.

In real life transcribed to D&D, they'd be taking on additional rather crippling flaws (like typical old people stuff, alzheimers, dementia, etc.) - which doesn't usually happen in D&D until someone incorporates a new mechanic and a way to convince players to want to do that and not unbalance the game.

Also, IQ isn't a direct measure of either Int or Wis - IQ can increase somewhat with experience, but its measurements are never completely accurate.

The reason Int relates to skills is because Int reflects the ability to absorb knowledge - but not necessarily how much you know; someone with a higher Int modifier has more skill points merely because they have a higher capacity to learn, so inevitably they know more. Interpret and repeat and learn.

With Wis, you might envision yourself doing that, but it won't help any. Wis is a bit more mystical in the sense that it reflects the ability to exert free will rather then directly relating to IQ (otherwise, it'd just be intelligence). Wis, combined with Int to give us language is what makes us human, because Wis gives us the ability to ask 'why' and be creative. But without Int we'd be emotional canyons of non-progress and virtually indistinguishable from animals (no language helps too - in fact, that's pretty much how animals are).


that would mean my Intelligence should drop 1 point for every 2 point of Wisdom I obtain, which would feel rather silly.

Personally, I've found that the more introspective I get the slower my work ethic is. But that could just be me. :smalltongue:


Note that this really only works for humanoids, but so does yours really.

Anything below 3 Int is totally off the charts, since said person can't read or understand language (an Int of 1 (Cow) compared to 3 (Thog) is probably drastically lower then 8 points of IQ). But yah, it only works for humanoids considering the concept of IQ only works for humans. :smalltongue:

Riffington
2010-04-29, 08:48 AM
When did Wisdom become creativity?

I vaguely see how you made it spatial reasoning, but I think this is incorrect. Survival may be wisdom, which helps avoid getting lost, but that's different. Spatial reasoning would be reflected more by Craft skills or Architecture/Geometry, which are all Int. Or, to some extent, by motor skills which are Dex.

I don't know what thoughtfulness means, so I couldn't say if it's Wisdom or not.



Wis is a bit more mystical in the sense that it reflects the ability to exert free will rather then directly relating to IQ (otherwise, it'd just be intelligence). Wis, combined with Int to give us language is what makes us human, because Wis gives us the ability to ask 'why' and be creative.

They why do Skeletons (unintelligent, zero creativity, no free will) have 10 Wisdom? Surely this means creativity and free will would be Intelligence or Charisma instead?

Johel
2010-04-29, 10:28 AM
They why do Skeletons (unintelligent, zero creativity, no free will) have 10 Wisdom? Surely this means creativity and free will would be Intelligence or Charisma instead?

Because, mechanically speaking, giving them a lower wisdom would impair their Listen Check. They can listen and see as good as any human peasant, hence the 10 in Wisdom, which is average.

Don't dig too deep on it.
A high wisdom can express anything related to how you perceive the world.

I go by the idea that, if you have to reason, think hard or study, it's intelligence. Basically, you use methodical experimentation and logic to make decisions. Experience give you facts and knowledge upon which you can rely to deduce things. Otherwise, it's Wisdom.

Wisdom includes also traditions and such : you don't know why your people do something a certain way but it's efficient and prudent so no need to really think too hard about it. Maybe there's a few exemples of people who tried another way and failed. People didn't bother to analyze why the other way failed since their first way still worked.

Spiryt
2010-04-29, 10:31 AM
Because, mechanically speaking, giving them a lower wisdom would impair their Listen Check. They can listen and see as good as any human peasant, hence the 10 in Wisdom, which is average.

Don't dig too deep on it.
A high wisdom can express anything related to how you perceive the world.



This.

Geeez people, there are no chance that D&D stuff will represent something like human (and not only human with the same system, lol) body and mind in a way that won't crumble after 20 seconds of more careful analyze of it.

It' simple and that's it.

imp_fireball
2010-04-29, 12:11 PM
They why do Skeletons (unintelligent, zero creativity, no free will) have 10 Wisdom? Surely this means creativity and free will would be Intelligence or Charisma instead?

Are animals creative? Creativity partly relies on intelligence and the appropriate environment as well. After all, without language and the ability to learn, our perceptions are that much more limited - if we cannot learn at all, then our perceptions become utterly rudimentary and we are once again akin to something like plants that move (skeletons).

For humanoids however, creativity relies almost entirely on wisdom - although having knowledge through intelligence may broaden the scope of what we can think about - however, that's generally covered by fluff and roleplaying.


I don't know what thoughtfulness means, so I couldn't say if it's Wisdom or not.

Thoughtfulness simply reflects the tendency to think about things and ask 'why' - this is actually more of a personality trait (roleplayed) but in real life, it arrives more in people with higher wisdom scores, since perceiving these things is generally easier for them (note that some wise people are apathetic and simply don't care). Intelligence on the other hand is all about knowing 'what' and finding out 'what'.

Note that even creatures with 0 wisdom are capable of free will, it's just that they will lose the ability to perceive the environment around them - they will fall helpless, unable to orient their bodies. This is unrelated to dexterity, where if Dex were 0 the person would fall helpless due to their muscles being unresponsive, sluggish and unco-ordinated.

Creatures with no wis score don't have free will. Plants have no wis score because they are simply organic matter rather then anything with any sentience (consciousness) whatsoever.

Sentience is reflected by having a wisdom score. Sapience (ability to reason while being conscious) is reflected by having an Int of 3 or higher and a wisdom score.

Note that a construct with no Wis score can still have a charisma score - say if it has pre-programmed responses according to what people say to it and if it can demonstrate realistic, appropriate emotions.
If it is incapable of 'loading other programs' then it might have no Int score either. Such a program would be highly complex nonetheless, magical or not.
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Wisdom is spatial reasoning in the sense that it is what allows a creature to orient itself through free will. I'm not refering to spatial reasoning in the sense of textiles or learned skills, rather, just simple perceptive capabilities (the person is far away, the person is beside me, etc.). Dexterity allows a character to move their hand in a certain way, whereas wisdom tells them that their hand just moved and that it did what they told it to, hence they may then will themselves to repeat the action.
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As for emotion, that is not an ability score and neither is memory (both are roleplayed). Being emotional is merely a state of mind, whereas reflecting the appropriate emotions that other may perceive of you in given situations is charisma.

People with high charisma naturally learn to pull the heart strings of others since it generally comes easy to them (thus, they can act, bluff, intimidate, etc.).


Wisdom includes also traditions and such : you don't know why your people do something a certain way but it's efficient and prudent so no need to really think too hard about it. Maybe there's a few exemples of people who tried another way and failed. People didn't bother to analyze why the other way failed since their first way still worked.

Wisdom is also considered the 'common sense' stat since it reflects the ability to make good inductive reasoning. The wise shaman carries on with traditions, not only because common sense would keep him in his position, but also so that he may philosophize ways in which to connect traditions to his position and further his career path.

Profession uses wisdom because it involves a lot of inductive reasoning to do with running a business - too much of running a business requires 'street smarts', too much of which isn't covered in a text book or manual.

Survival is similar in that it relies on the ability to properly think ahead. Note that anyone can think ahead if they care to, but knowing what to think about is wisdom.

Craft on the other hand requires narrow deductions in order to make things properly fit together and not fall apart. The same knowledge (architecture & engineering) and other 'spatial reasoning' skills. IMO, knowledge (architecture & engineering) has to do more with architectural trends and why they work (according to what a given civilization in the setting knows about architecture and engineering). Also, engineering mostly likely explicitly refers to structural engineering (other fields are simply applied mathematics; and while structural engineering is that too, the knowledge skill is rather explicit).

Finally, 'putting the pieces together' or connecting up pieces of seemingly unrelated information by means of deduction (different from 'narrow deduction) is mostly wisdom - a score that investigators generally rely on to give them that 'hunch' or 'gut feeling'.

Riffington
2010-04-29, 12:47 PM
Are animals creative?
Not particularly. This is further evidence that creativity should be Intelligence or Charisma, not Wisdom.



For humanoids however, creativity relies almost entirely on wisdom -
I'm not saying this is necessarily wrong - but where is it coming from? There aren't really creative skills that are wisdom based. It's not in the wisdom entry. To the extent that wisdom is "having good instincts/traditions" - well that's sort of the opposite of creativity. So I'm just trying to figure out where you're getting this.




Thoughtfulness simply reflects the tendency to think about things and ask 'why' - this is actually more of a personality trait (roleplayed) but in real life, it arrives more in people with higher wisdom scores, since perceiving these things is generally easier for them (note that some wise people are apathetic and simply don't care). Intelligence on the other hand is all about knowing 'what' and finding out 'what'.

I completely disagree with this, then. A person who just asks "what" and memorizes a bunch of facts isn't smart or intelligent. The smart-but-unwise stereotype of the mad scientist is forever asking "why".

Now, if by thoughtfulness you mean "remembers your mom's birthday" then I can totally agree it's Wisdom.




Wisdom is spatial reasoning in the sense that it is what allows a creature to orient itself through free will. I'm not refering to spatial reasoning in the sense of textiles or learned skills, rather, just simple perceptive capabilities (the person is far away, the person is beside me, etc.).


Ok, so spatial reasoning (the ability to mentally manipulate shapes in an abstract fashion) is still Intelligence, but perception is Wisdom?

imp_fireball
2010-04-29, 12:51 PM
To the extent that wisdom is "having good instincts/traditions" - well that's sort of the opposite of creativity.

No, that's the opposite of liberalism. Being creative doesn't necessarily mean 'being liberal'. That would be an example of bad inductive reasoning.

Wisdom = tradition is a stereotype. Also 'traditions' could actually refer to fundamentals, which could apply to 'character' or 'moral grounding'.


I completely disagree with this, then. A person who just asks "what" and memorizes a bunch of facts isn't smart or intelligent. The smart-but-unwise stereotype of the mad scientist is forever asking "why".


Sorry if I poorly worded it. The absent minded scientist cliche is forever asking why because they are infinitely curious about finite details. Anyone can ask why, and anyone can be curious - but in a sense, being wise is the ability to ask the right questions or to know to ask why with less provocation. Does that make sense?


Now, if by thoughtfulness you mean "remembers your mom's birthday" then I can totally agree it's Wisdom.

Thoughtfulness would also reflect remembering what your mom desires and then tailoring an appropriate gift for her via compensation when they don't have the right gift available in the store.


Ok, so spatial reasoning (the ability to mentally manipulate shapes in an abstract fashion) is still Intelligence, but perception is Wisdom?

Exactly.

Spatial reasoning is actually just a term, while spatial and reasoning are separate words that can reflect the context of anything when combined together. That's how I got the words confused.
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Not particularly. This is further evidence that creativity should be Intelligence or Charisma, not Wisdom.

You missed the part where I said that having Int less than 3 limits learning and experience, hence animals and other such beings are ultimately far less creative no matter what their wisdom score is.

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Because wisdom is free will and reflects a sense of self, wisdom modifier applies to will save.

Riffington
2010-04-29, 12:59 PM
No, that's the opposite of liberalism. Being creative doesn't necessarily mean 'being liberal'. That would be an example of bad inductive reasoning.

Hrm, I must have poorly worded this. I don't mean to say anything political.
I mean, if you have a good instinct/tradition like "Oh, the milk smells a little funny so I throw it away. Not sure if it's good or not, not really curious, I just throw it out" - well, that's the Wise thing to do. It's not liberal/conservative, it's not intelligent, it's just wise.
Or if you hear about a nifty loan proposal and it looks great on paper but smells off, and you instead listen to your gut or stick with the traditional loans you're used to - it's uncreative, but high-Wisdom.



Sorry if I poorly worded it. The absent minded scientist cliche is forever asking why because they are infinitely curious about finite details. Anyone can ask why, and anyone can be curious - but in a sense, being wise is the ability to ask the right questions or to know to ask why with less provocation. Does that make sense?

The absent minded scientist cliche is not curious about mere details. She's curious about the great Why.
I'm not sure if that answers what you're saying, maybe you can clarify?

imp_fireball
2010-04-29, 01:11 PM
"Oh, the milk smells a little funny so I throw it away. Not sure if it's good or not, not really curious, I just throw it out" - well, that's the Wise thing to do.

Actually it's more 'Oh, the milk smells a little funny so I'll throw it away. I'm not at all curious why, because I know that there's really nothing I can get out of being curious about this.'


The absent minded scientist cliche is not curious about mere details. She's curious about the great Why.
I'm not sure if that answers what you're saying, maybe you can clarify?

Asking why the universe exists the way it does is a question that anyone can ask, wise or not. The absent minded scientist is easily side tracked however. They might use the 'great why' as an excuse to practice, or simply because they take from other scientists who have asked the same perpetual question.

Some people can be curious about why things exist without having a high wisdom score - it's just that they won't be able to work out the answer to their own questions with common sense. Rather, they will resort to intensive experimentation. If they also have a low or average Int score, they may give up and resort to apathy.

A mad scientist with low wisdom may be completely away from the norm (despite's the norm's tendency to follow the masses and not execute free will itself), but this is mainly due to a variety of factors - such as social history, past experiences, etc. They may also ignore the good advice of peers to cease and desist (arguing that 'people are against them' or 'don't appreciate success'), due to their absent mindedness (low Wis).

A wise but uintelligent person would know not to attempt to figure out why the universe exists through science because they realize that it'd take far too much effort for them.

Anxe
2010-04-29, 01:24 PM
I've always thought that INT was directly related to IQ by the equation, IQ = 10 x INT. This is proven true for me by those online IQ quiz things and those online D&D stat quizes. My IQ is 156 my INT is always rated as 15 or 16. Course there could be bias from the people who make these quizes to make them match up, but it convinced me they were directly related.

Basically, I don't think WIS is a factor in deciding IQ.

Additionally, IQ has two definitions. The most common definition is that IQ is your mental age divided by your physical age times 100. That idea doesn't really work for D&D where different lifespanned races don't have different IQs. It also doesn't work in the real world. IQ should not change as people get older, so how do you explain someone who has 150 IQ who lives to be 94 years old without dementia or Alzheimers. Is their mental age 141 years old? Nobody lives to be that old!

The second definition is the one I like to use. Every ten steps of IQ is one standard deviation. Thus, the IQ range of 90-110 encompasses about 2/3 of humanity (or I suppose all existence in D&D). This one works better for when people get older. Not sure if it works better if we include all of existence in D&D. The scale isn't meant to include creatures such as animals.

imp_fireball
2010-04-29, 01:40 PM
That idea doesn't really work for D&D where different lifespanned races don't have different IQs.

Well I could easily argue that not every race is human. Hence, not all races think the same and must measure IQ differently.


Additionally, IQ has two definitions. The most common definition is that IQ is your mental age divided by your physical age times 100. That idea doesn't really work for D&D where different lifespanned races don't have different IQs. It also doesn't work in the real world. IQ should not change as people get older, so how do you explain someone who has 150 IQ who lives to be 94 years old without dementia or Alzheimers. Is their mental age 141 years old? Nobody lives to be that old!

This is probably some old fashioned definition based on the tradition that 'older = wiser = higher IQ, because wisdom and intelligence are the same thing'. In real life, intelligence is an entire broad class covering all variety of cognitive mental attributes - whereas in D&D, the score 'intelligence' is a bit different.


Thus, the IQ range of 90-110 encompasses about 2/3 of humanity (or I suppose all existence in D&D).

Not every race has +0 Int in D&D. That's a very broad generalization.


I've always thought that INT was directly related to IQ by the equation, IQ = 10 x INT. This is proven true for me by those online IQ quiz things and those online D&D stat quizes. My IQ is 156 my INT is always rated as 15 or 16. Course there could be bias from the people who make these quizes to make them match up, but it convinced me they were directly related.

My IQ is 127 but one of those quizes told me my Int was 18 (probably the same one that gave a 19 to some people too). Not necessarily the best standard to go by.
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The reason I believe Wis (at least partially) relates to IQ is because some of the questions seen on IQ tests frequently ask for inductive reasoning - ie. Cat is to mouse as Toad is to... ? Technically there's multiple ways in which a cat could relate to a mouse, hence another animal could be dirived to relate to a toad in a similar manner (besides the obvious one being insect or another, more specific answer like 'mosquito' or 'fly') - however the question desires only one answer. It's an example of narrow inductive reasoning (can't remember what it's called exactly).

There's also other questions such as how anger - rage relates to other phrases such as happy - ecstatic or controlled - uncontrolled, etc. Which require Wis. Not really any wrong answer to those sorts of questions.

Johel
2010-04-29, 02:27 PM
The reason I believe Wis (at least partially) relates to IQ is because some of the questions seen on IQ tests frequently ask for inductive reasoning - ie. Cat is to mouse as Toad is to... ? Technically there's multiple ways in which a cat could relate to a mouse, hence another animal could be dirived to relate to a toad in a similar manner (besides the obvious one being insect or another, more specific answer like 'mosquito' or 'fly') - however the question desires only one answer. It's an example of narrow inductive reasoning (can't remember what it's called exactly).

There's also other questions such as how anger - rage relates to other phrases such as happy - ecstatic or controlled - uncontrolled, etc. Which require Wis. Not really any wrong answer to those sorts of questions.

That's reasoning, as you pointed out. It's your ability to build conscious, logical links between things...and being right about it.
And that's Intelligence.
"-Cat is a mammal. Mouse is a mammal. What is Toad ? I learned it's a amphibian. THerefore, answer must be some kind of amphibian. Is there an amphibian in the list ? No. Therefore, it's not the correct logic link.
Cat eats mouses. What does the Toad eats ? I have learned it eats insects. Therefore, answer must be insects. Is "Insect" in the list ?"

If you were to simply throw a wild guess and you happened to be right, then it would be Wisdom.
"-Cat... Mouse... Toad... What are the answers. Hmmm... I kinda feel it must be Insect. Because it feels right. Also, the other answers don't look that good. Dog ? Who would associate Toad and Dog ? Ah !! Can't say why it's wrong but that's obviously wrong !!"

imp_fireball
2010-04-29, 02:50 PM
If you were to simply throw a wild guess and you happened to be right, then it would be Wisdom.


No, that'd be luck.


Dog ? Who would associate Toad and Dog ? Ah !! Can't say why it's wrong but that's obviously wrong !!"

More like "Dog? Why associate a Toad with a Dog? I don't recall toads licking dogs in their natural habitat. So, obviously wrong."

They'd also have more control over their emotions and decision making skills (so none of the hair pulling whenever they realize they must rely on a hunch).


"-Cat is a mammal. Mouse is a mammal. What is Toad ? I learned it's a amphibian. THerefore, answer must be some kind of amphibian. Is there an amphibian in the list ? No. Therefore, it's not the correct logic link.
Cat eats mouses. What does the Toad eats ? I have learned it eats insects. Therefore, answer must be insects. Is "Insect" in the list ?"

If the test wasn't multiple choice, then the intelligent (with D&D intelligence mind you) person would probably get the question wrong.

They'd end up saying "Is amphibian on the list? Crap, there's no list on here. Okay so... crap. This is stupid. I'll just guess. Say, a turtle. How does that sound?"

Here's an interesting read:
http://able2know.org/topic/95782-1

theos911
2010-04-29, 07:57 PM
I'm not sure IQ works here, but here is my opinion. Wisdom is what you perceive and how clear you perceive your world and int determines how you can analyze, adsorb info from, or reason about what you perceive.

Examples:

Average-int=10,wis=10 sees the world pretty standardly, interprets and understands it pretty averagely

High wisdom, low int- 3 int, 18 wisdom This thing can clearly perceive it's world but its brain really cant get much from it-like showing a chicken court papers, the chicken can see the papers just fine, but cannot analyze or understand them.

High int low wisdom- int 18, wisdom 3- This thing (is probably nuts) cannot perceive it's world well but is able to understand what they perceive. This is odd though, in that they perceive something different than what is actually there and then make very high level predictions or actions based on that of which most people cannot make sense of.

It could be related to a computer int=computers cpu speed and RAM wisdom=its keyboard, mouse, cd drive speed and internet speed. Even the fastest computer can't do much without accurate input. Conversely a master typist with 22x write speed drive and gigabit internet can't do much with a computer that has trouble getting out of its own way. Hope this helps clear the confusion.

Open to input...:smallwink:

EDIT: Sorry if it looked like RAM was part of wisdom, it was meant to int *Posted this whole thing when my brain had already entered autopilot for the evening so had a few mistakes sorry

imp_fireball
2010-04-29, 08:43 PM
I'm not sure IQ works here, but here is my opinion. Wisdom is what you perceive and how clear you perceive your world and int determines how you can analyze, adsorb info from, or reason about what you perceive.

Examples:

Average-int=10,wis=10 sees the world pretty standardly, interprets and understands it pretty averagely

High wisdom, low int- 3 int, 18 wisdom This thing can clearly perceive it's world but its brain really cant get much from it-like showing a chicken court papers, the chicken can see the papers just fine, but cannot analyze or understand them.

High int low wisdom- int 18, wisdom 3- This thing (is probably nuts) cannot perceive it's world well but is able to understand what they perceive. This is odd though, in that they perceive something different than what is actually there and then make very high level predictions or actions based on that of which most people cannot make sense of.

It could be related to a computer int=computers cpu speed and RAM wisdom=its keyboard, mouse, cd drive speed and internet speed. Even the fastest computer can't do much without accurate input. Conversely a master typist with 22x write speed drive and gigabit internet can't do much with a computer that has trouble getting out of its own way. Hope this helps clear the confusion.

Open to input...:smallwink:

I agree with your analysis. Non-metaphorically speaking, however, a computer's RAM would be just be intelligence again - the ability to handle large sums of data inflow simultaneously.

Also, people with high Int but low Wis tend to be 'self-absorbed' and non-empathetic. Bad at giving direction but good at figuring out a problem if they're directed towards the problem.

It's why the rogue often has high Int but low Wis (and not just for optimization/role related reasons) - they keep stealing to test their intellect even though stealing is generally bad idea since it lands you time. A wise rogue would more likely cease stealing and become an entrepreneur that cons people in another way, except in rare cases where the thrill of the theft might be too enjoyable for them (and they have an ego streak to boot).

Comparitively, all the above rogues would be of the same alignment.

BobVosh
2010-04-29, 09:15 PM
Going back a bit, I would rate charisma as the most important stat for creativity, followed by int then wisdom. Mainly because charisma is supposedly force of personality and will (why it isn't linked to will saves, I don't know.)

To be creative you need to be able to think up of an idea, wisdom to figure out what someone would need (step skipped in most absent minded scientist motifs), then the intelligence to be able to make something useful. Charisma is need to give the drive to finish anything more complex than a chair.

Also 18-3 examples are fairly meaningless as any combination of that in the mental stats would make for a fairly impossible concept. I have always considered that such things is basically a mental deficit of some sort, such as schizophrenia. Anything below probably a 7 combined with an 18 makes for such a character.

This goes for any of the mental stats. Although I have never really found a way for an idiot savant to exist, probably just skill focus or something.

Shalist
2010-04-29, 10:21 PM
How about this?

Intelligence is your 'mental muscle,' which lets you to easily 'lift' heavier ideas that others struggle with, or even heavier ideas that others find impossible to lift on their own.

If intelligence is your mental strength, then wisdom is your mental constitution and fortitude, or endurance. It represents your ability to stay focused or engaged, to keep an open mind, etc. Someone with low wisdom is 'intellectually lazy.' They're easily distracted, and will space out or go into 'autopilot' sooner. They rely on assumptions or leap quickly to conclusions, and don't mind letting others doing their thinking for them, because its a hassle to do it themselves.

Charisma is your passion and desire, your confidence and self-perception, which lends naturally to being able to express yourself. Someone with charisma is someone who knows what they want in life, and has the energy to pursue that goal, while someone with low charisma is perfectly happy to get stuck in a rut, content to waste away their evenings...even their entire life...merely waiting for something to change for them.

imp_fireball
2010-04-29, 10:55 PM
Going back a bit, I would rate charisma as the most important stat for creativity, followed by int then wisdom. Mainly because charisma is supposedly force of personality and will (why it isn't linked to will saves, I don't know.)

You're misinterpreting what the fluff intended to say. Charisma is not at all creativity - how exactly are celebrities at all creative?

Music artists that are creative are wise or have spent hours conceptualizing their songs so that they don't need the wisdom bonus. Perform is a charisma related check because it takes the ability to go beyond social comfort level to get into the music and play really well. Also a high charisma entices the audience to the performance more - the song doesn't necessarily need to be creative, but making big bucks as a musician on a record label could depend on profession (musician), which requires Wis - and then fans listen to the music and a cult is formed appreciating the creativity and depth of what the musician wrote for his music. Passers by don't usually pay attention to this sort of thing, and merely prefer to rate the quality of the performance rather then the content (which is why say, Hannah Montana is popular - completely uncreative but charismatic enough that little girls buy her up).

Finally, force of personality is the ability to externalize your emotions and influence others. 'Will', by the context of its use in the sentence (and of what I'm most definitely sure they meant) is exerting your will upon a social situation.

You don't necessarily need to have high will power, rather, through will alone, you can control a social scenario with your high charisma. Actual wisdom is required to deal with discomfort (perceive it and then adjust your mental state accordingly; maybe by thinking 'I've felt worse' or 'think happy thoughts!'), hence it empowers will saves.

Real life Example: Note that a lot of 'social butterflies' can be really squeamish about silly little things that can simply be resisted with force of will. Ie. "Omigod is that a spider?!" With will power, she'd be able to suck it up and just kill the darn thing, but since she lacks the necessary will power, she's unable to control her emotions and be pro-active in any way towards the situation.

If you know how to be wise, then you can tailor greater control over your own thoughts (hence higher will saves).


Someone with low wisdom is 'intellectually lazy.'

Not everyone would call them 'intellectually lazy'. They might be workaholics who think they are genuinely excellent people in all aspects of their lives (my dad is an actual example of this :smalltongue:). Many times, they can be called all sorts of things like 'rash', 'obtuse', 'hesitant', or 'un-decisive'. Note that most of those are just personality traits, however - a person can be both wise and hesitant (maybe because they're generally paranoid), ie.


I have always considered that such things is basically a mental deficit of some sort, such as schizophrenia. Anything below probably a 7 combined with an 18 makes for such a character.

You could role play such a character, but mechanically it doesn't match up. A schizoid (big flaw) would more likely be afflicted with periodic uncontrollable bouts of unreasoning fear. Because the mechanics don't match up, it's more difficult to roleplay - and if you act accordingly (ie. abandon the party to supplement a schizo panic attack Burn after Reading George Clooney style), that just makes your friends angry. Which is why I disagree with that assessment. :smalltongue:


To be creative you need to be able to think up of an idea

In that sense, anyone can be creative if they are willing. It's just that wisdom provokes good creativity - or good use of creativity. Which pretty much makes it directly related. If you can observe many things, then you can put many things together and come up with something entirely new.

With Int, nothing comes together. You might try to be creative, but then some nerd will call you out and say that its 'been done before' without you realizing it - even after you did the research (and its difficult to research pop culture without knowing exactly what to look for; many people get lost in tvtropes).


Intelligence is your 'mental muscle,' which lets you to easily 'lift' heavier ideas that others struggle with, or even heavier ideas that others find impossible to lift on their own.

More like 'heavier formulas' or 'heavier chew'. It's basically just processing power. 'Ideas', depending on the content, might fall into wisdom because you'd have to perceive how they appropriately apply to existing prevalent ideas that are in use.


Charisma is your passion and desire

Nay, charisma is your ability to reflect that you have passion and desire. Anyone can be passionate and full of desire. Emotion ain't an ability score.


your confidence and self-perception

I think what you meant for the latter was 'self security' which lends itself to confidence. As for perception, it allows you to perceive the atmosphere of social circumstances in the immediate vicinity (as in 'why would she wear that ugly outfit on a day like today?'; whereas wisdom would tell you 'she decided to wear that outfit today' or 'seems foolish and probably will result in a bunch of females giving dirty looks', and intelligence would tell you that her outfit consists largely of nylon). Not much else.


Charisma is need to give the drive to finish anything more complex than a chair.

No, charisma is the drive to make your design phase seem captivating and intelligent without being overly dramatic (insert scene in death note with Light Yagami writing furiously for the latter and/or biting a potato chip in slow motion). With charisma, you can make people think all sorts of things since it also relates to acting.


This goes for any of the mental stats. Although I have never really found a way for an idiot savant to exist, probably just skill focus or something.

Just invent a feat or trait and discuss it with the GM. Maybe you could invest higher ranks then allowable per level in a handful of skills (thus synergy bonus is received at first level).


If intelligence is your mental strength, then wisdom is your mental constitution and fortitude, or endurance.

I agree, except for the latter 'endurance' which relates more to constitution, however you can use will power to force yourself to greater lengths of mental endurance in real life - will power is somewhat connected with wisdom.


It represents your ability to stay focused or engaged

Concentrate relies on constitution actually. Also being focused and engaged relates to work ethic, which is more intelligence, imo (but not enough to have any effect in D&D - although the academic and the wizard both rely on Int and they happen to study and remain focused and engaged on specific topics of interest). It'd suck if the GM forced you to make an Int check.

I think what you meant was that Wisdom is related to empathy - the ability to perceive the emotional state of others. Hence, they can be engaged in that sense, basically by finding reason to continue working or adventuring rather then because you simply have a desire to finish something and satisfy your daily dose of mind fuel (intelligence for the latter), etc.


They're easily distracted, and will space out or go into 'autopilot' sooner. They rely on assumptions or leap quickly to conclusions, and don't mind letting others doing their thinking for them, because its a hassle to do it themselves.

The stereotypically unwise person will do this, yes.


which lends naturally to being able to express yourself.

Wikipedia actually considers charisma a 'supernatural ability' because it hasn't been closely studied enough. Currently, it's confirmed that charismatic people simply have it and that's that.

One can raise their charisma slightly by going out more or getting involved in social activities or learning to perceive conversational subtleties or attend public speaking seminars - but that's about it.


Someone with charisma is someone who knows what they want in life, and has the energy to pursue that goal, while someone with low charisma is perfectly happy to get stuck in a rut, content to waste away their evenings...even their entire life...merely waiting for something to change for them.

Those are more personality traits actually - not at all related to ability scores. Note however that a charismatic person might find an easier time reflecting positivity coupled by more friends in high school and a wise person might be negative and introspective because they perceive the world to be a dung hole coupled by little else that makes them happy, like friends if they have any (which is really just a teenage phase or depression).


Charisma is need to give the drive to finish anything more complex than a chair.

Again, the drive to finish something you started is a personality trait. In D&D it's intelligence (craft check), which makes sense considering it reflects work ethic. Unless of course you had a spell like ability to craft things quickly that relied on Charisma - but that's another story.

Charisma makes sense in the context of sorcerers - they are 'convincing' magic to be wielded by them each time they cast a spell. Clerics are trying to use their force of will and perception to direct a spell at an opponent (because their deity might have limited ability to perceive the material plane as well as mortals), hence they use wisdom. Druids also use wisdom to make what they imagine reality - through meditation, they tune into nature, give it rudimentary sentience through mental guidance (which requires perception/wisdom); all in the course of a standard action to cast the spell.

Wizards are trying to recall the semantics of a spell in their head, hence they use intelligence. Psions use intelligence because of their natural psionic ability to manifest up to their daily power point limit - they overwhelm enemies with brain power rather then force of will or imagination or personality. Psychic Warriors meditate to gain control of their powers so that they may direct with their will power while incorporating their martial prowess. Wilders are natural becons of psychic might, they need only convince reality to tame itself to their choosing - however this overwhelms them more quickly then other psychic classes since their power is channeled upon the plane of time and space through their mind subconsciously. Monk's unify body and mind, which requires perception of the self and much meditation in order to orient all of their visceral responses accordingly. Bards make arcane magic fall in love with them through music or other performance, directing it with suggestions (and later on they gain the ability to make suggestions on creatures, so it makes sense).

Paladins are chosen hubs of a given deity or ideal - they use their charisma to make themselves seem more imposing so that divine magic will naturally flow through them better. In non-home brew (crappy) version, however, deities still require mortal perception to help direct their divine energies, hence a paladin uses wisdom to cast spells. A ranger uses wisdom for the same reason that a druid uses wisdom, but with less of the 'allied to nature' fluff (they may be more liable to only bargain with nature, hence why they aren't always neutral aligned like druids).

theos911
2010-04-30, 05:21 AM
My Basic Analysis

Wisdom=Perception, Control of one's emotion
Int=Calculation and Understanding(not of emotion but of things and concepts that are non-emotional)
Cha=Ability to express emotion so "average" others may understand it, ability to understand other's emotion

NOTICE-There is a fine line between Wisdom's ability to control your own emotion and cha's ability to express that emotion. Basically you perceive with wis then calculate how that affects you(int). Your wisdom then determines how that affect makes you feel, and how you will deal with it. Charisma then allows you to express how you feel or explain what you perceived so others may perceive similar things, and understand how you felt/perceived it.

Cha reasoning vs. int reasoning

There is a girl crying, some workmen nearby, and a fallen ladder.

Int reasoning says "She must of fallen off the ladder, she must be hurt"

Charisma reasoning says "Her father may of been a workmen and fallen and gotten hurt, she must be sad"

Creativity- I'm gonna say it's charisma, since i think charisma is the ability to express emotion which can be hard and may need to reworded or reworked many times for someone to understand-hence creativity Though, I think int kinda ropes in creativity so its still useful for the situation at hand.

You are drawing a flower for a nature art contest. Creativity says give it purple petals even though its a daffodil. Then give it a bonnet or bowtie. Then make it dance. Then make it look like a performer in a dance studio.
Int reigns that in to only relevant things such as the purple petals and the bonnet or bowtie-hence int limits creativity so that is useful in the situation.

Couldn't think of a better word than limits High int doesn't make you less creative as limit would imply, it merely allows better focus and relevancy to that creativity.

imp_fireball
2010-04-30, 10:56 PM
My Basic Analysis

Wisdom=Perception, Control of one's emotion
Int=Calculation and Understanding(not of emotion but of things and concepts that are non-emotional)
Cha=Ability to express emotion so "average" others may understand it, ability to understand other's emotion

NOTICE-There is a fine line between Wisdom's ability to control your own emotion and cha's ability to express that emotion. Basically you perceive with wis then calculate how that affects you(int). Your wisdom then determines how that affect makes you feel, and how you will deal with it. Charisma then allows you to express how you feel or explain what you perceived so others may perceive similar things, and understand how you felt/perceived it.

Cha reasoning vs. int reasoning

There is a girl crying, some workmen nearby, and a fallen ladder.

Int reasoning says "She must of fallen off the ladder, she must be hurt"

Charisma reasoning says "Her father may of been a workmen and fallen and gotten hurt, she must be sad"

Creativity- I'm gonna say it's charisma, since i think charisma is the ability to express emotion which can be hard and may need to reworded or reworked many times for someone to understand-hence creativity Though, I think int kinda ropes in creativity so its still useful for the situation at hand.

You are drawing a flower for a nature art contest. Creativity says give it purple petals even though its a daffodil. Then give it a bonnet or bowtie. Then make it dance. Then make it look like a performer in a dance studio.
Int reigns that in to only relevant things such as the purple petals and the bonnet or bowtie-hence int limits creativity so that is useful in the situation.

Couldn't think of a better word than limits High int doesn't make you less creative as limit would imply, it merely allows better focus and relevancy to that creativity.

You seem to think that Int being logic means it is relevant to one's ability to perceive.

Although anyone can be creative, wisdom makes for good creativity.

It would take wisdom to recognize that a dancing flower with purple petals and a bow tie is or is not relevant or does or does not look like a daffodil when it has purple petals. It would take Int to realize that daffodils don't have purple petals - you aren't perceiving this, you are remembering it from a list of facts about daffodils. How could you simply look at a daffodil and know that it does not have purple petals without looking at every other daffodil in the universe? That would be bad inductive reasoning. It would take wisdom to realize that. It would take Int to recognize what inductive reasoning is in the precise sense of the term (remembering the definition rather then coming up with your own definition).

It would take charisma to tailor the dancing flower with purple petals to be made appropriately cute when intended or explain what your intentions were to the judges in the art contest and eliciting the reaction you want from the judges.

Coming up with the scenario you detailed above would take wisdom. It would take wisdom on my part to explain in the way that reflects all the points that I desire. It would take charisma or intelligence to explain it in a way that you understand.


There is a fine line between Wisdom's ability to control your own emotion and cha's ability to express that emotion.

Hardly. Just because they both have to do with emotion doesn't mean they're related. Say you control your emotion with wisdom. If you have a low charisma people might think that you are stupid when you don't react in the ways that they wish you to react.


Int reasoning says "She must of fallen off the ladder, she must be hurt"

Int would allow workers to remember that when someone falls off a ladder, they may be hurt. Wis would tell them that the girl must have fallen off the ladder.


Charisma reasoning says "Her father may of been a workmen and fallen and gotten hurt, she must be sad"

It would take wisdom to recognize that too. Note that wisdom can come up with many conclusions. It would take wisdom to notice from a glance that the girl is not laying on the ground, or wounded. It takes wisdom to interpret that the emotions are directed towards her father who may be nearby. That's empathy.

It takes charisma to be able to look appropriately concerned when your supervisor looks to you for assistance in this scenario. It takes charisma to recognize that all the other workers may or may not feel the same way you do - but only when they give the appropriate stimuli that's recognizable (ie. 'that's horrible!' one of them would cry, but the tone of his voice indicates he's putting up a bit of an act; wisdom would tell you that he's trying to save his own skin. In reality, he may feel genuinely terrible about the situation, but he's not great at showing emotion and so it only sounds like he's acting - but you wouldn't be able to tell this with charisma).


Basically you perceive with wis then calculate how that affects you(int). Your wisdom then determines how that affect makes you feel, and how you will deal with it. Charisma then allows you to express how you feel or explain what you perceived so others may perceive similar things, and understand how you felt/perceived it.

Your extrapolating a little too much here. The first sentence all has to do with wis. Calculating how something affects you takes wisdom, because you are perceiving what will occur in the future or how future events may be modified to what you previously imagined.

Determining how something makes you feel requires no ability score. Everyone instinctively knows how they feel - it's just that they have varying capability of expressing these feelings. Someone who says 'I don't know how I feel' is usually attempting to brush off the question or has had difficulty expressing the emotions in the past.

I agree with your analysis of charisma though.

Note that while the ability scores might seem to overlap, they really don't - they're quite far apart. It's just that human psychology is very abstract - particularly to do with wisdom. Wisdom is very very difficult to measure, as was explained in the article I linked.

The only time, IMO, the ability scores come to close to overlapping is wisdom's ability to perceive everything and charisma's perception of the immediate social atmosphere.

Heliomance
2010-05-01, 07:10 AM
I know what my IQ is. I'm also pretty sure I have a Wis of about 8. Your system would require me to have 23 Int. I'm not entirely sure how I manage that, as a human.

Riffington
2010-05-01, 07:19 AM
Imp_Fireball, you underestimate Charisma. Charisma is "actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting"

So Bob Dylan is a great example of a high-charisma person without much in the way of social skills. Super creative, strong force of personality - you meet him and you know he's Someone. But he never bothered to buy many ranks in Diplomacy or Perform - hence, many people call him both Great and annoying at the same time.

An uncharismatic person with good social skills just has that - good social skills. When it comes to Will - Charisma is the ability to make your will shine forth brightly and do things with it (ie Will's equivalent of Strength); Wisdom is the ability to keep your will constant and use it as endurance (ie Will's equivalent of Constitution). You must have all three (Int, Wis, Cha) to have free will, of course.

imp_fireball
2010-05-01, 12:28 PM
Imp_Fireball, you underestimate Charisma. Charisma is "actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting"

So Bob Dylan is a great example of a high-charisma person without much in the way of social skills. Super creative, strong force of personality - you meet him and you know he's Someone. But he never bothered to buy many ranks in Diplomacy or Perform - hence, many people call him both Great and annoying at the same time.

An uncharismatic person with good social skills just has that - good social skills. When it comes to Will - Charisma is the ability to make your will shine forth brightly and do things with it (ie Will's equivalent of Strength); Wisdom is the ability to keep your will constant and use it as endurance (ie Will's equivalent of Constitution). You must have all three (Int, Wis, Cha) to have free will, of course.

Exactly what I meant to say. Except for the last paragraph.

Unless by 'free will' you mean 'free range will that does whatever it desires'. By free will, I mean the technical reference to free will, simple sentience - the ability to feel and react accordingly and the ability to act as an individual consciousness.


It's possible to have decent social skills without charisma - much of it depends on wisdom too. Instinctively knowing that people may be upset when you burp loudly at the table, ie.

Charisma isn't personality - everyone has personality. It's 'force of personality' - the ability to assert your personality on others. Hence, it may alter the perception of others towards you (particularly first impressions). It's like how Int relates to knowledge and learning.


I know what my IQ is. I'm also pretty sure I have a Wis of about 8. Your system would require me to have 23 Int. I'm not entirely sure how I manage that, as a human.

There are people with IQ above 140 in real life. Technically, this is genius level intelligence. My system doesn't cover that because being a genius is abnormal - and semi-super natural, imo.

Just like enrolling in special ed, you'd need the appropriate trait to be a genius through Int alone.

Note that there's also people in real life who can pull trucks with the hair of their beards and petite women who can hurl a 200 pound man over a high wall when hopped on aderenaline. In D&D, while this is best represented as 'heroic surge' or action points, it's safe to assume that remarkable passive things such as 'genius' through Int alone, require optimization. Also, geniuses are supposed to be less common then a 3d6 die roll - something like 1 in 1000 according to Wiki.

Math_Mage
2010-05-01, 12:58 PM
For someone who titled the thread "My Opinion of Int and Wis in 3.X," you're being very defensive about it. The thread would be more productive if you sought to integrate others' contributions into your hypothesis, instead of spending so much time in rebuttal mode (however justified).

That said, I'm going to start off with a criticism: I don't think it's a good idea to consider Int and Wis in terms of IQ calibration. IQ is not an especially meaningful measure in itself, and represents something very different from what Int and Wis do. A lot will be lost in translation, and the result will be ambiguous.

Considering the matter only by looking at what's on the character sheet, my first thought is that creativity doesn't get slotted into any individual stat--rather, it's spread out over all three mental stats. If it does go to one stat, Wisdom is certainly not that stat. Wisdom goes to:
-Will saves
-Heal
-Listen
-Profession
-Sense Motive
-Spot
-Survival

What about any of these things is especially indicative of creativity?

Backing up a step, I would describe each of the mental stats in terms of strength. Intelligence is strength of understanding. Wisdom is strength of perception. Charisma is strength of personality.

Intelligence manages those skills that assess one's understanding of a given subject. Appraise measures the character's knowledge of the relationship between objects and prices. Decipher script is a fairly direct measure of one's knowledge of cryptography. Disable Device measures one's knowledge of how these devices function and how to deactivate them. Knowledge...well, yeah. Side note: many of these skills require a good amount of creativity and intuition as well as strict knowledge-gathering.

Wisdom manages those skills that relate to how characters perceive the world. Sense Motive measures your ability to perceive another character's physical state and relate it to his mental state. Survival measures one's ability to perceive tracks, among other things ('survive in the wilderness' is so broad that it necessarily encompasses several of the traits, so I'm not going to deal with it). Spot and Listen I need not elaborate on. Notably, Will saves measure how strong your perception of the world is in the face of beguiling influences--illusions, enchantments and so on. Does Dominate Person overcome your perception of this BBEG as a foe? Does Silent Image overcome your perception of this hallway? It is primarily upon Will saves that I base my assessment of Wisdom. Wisdom skills can have some relation to creativity and intuition, though it is not immediately apparent. Spotting concealed knives, for example, may involve intuitive extrapolation from odd shapes in places where they shouldn't be. Sense Motive basically is intuition about another's state of mind.

Charisma manages those skills that relate to interpersonal interaction. Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Handle Animal...I won't go skill-by-skill as I did with the others, because I shouldn't have to. Charisma allows you to strongly present an image of yourself--what matters is not so much your native personality, but the personality you show to others, your ability to manage others' perceptions of you. Again, we see a number of skills that require creativity, from Bluff to Perform.

There are outliers for everything, of course. Search is an Int skill only because Spot is already a Wis skill. Heal does not appeal to one's perception of the world so much as the knowledge and practice of medical treatment, and yet it is a Wis skill (to say nothing of Profession, which was just thrown in). Charisma has Use Magic Device...yeah. But that's the basic conclusion I've arrived at from the crunch perspective. And thanks, imp_fireball, for provoking me to think about this.

EDIT: You're being better about the rebuttal thing today than yesterday, so I retract that statement.

Riffington
2010-05-01, 01:06 PM
Exactly what I meant to say. Except for the last paragraph.

Unless by 'free will' you mean 'free range will that does whatever it desires'. By free will, I mean the technical reference to free will, simple sentience - the ability to feel and react accordingly and the ability to act as an individual consciousness.


Well, feeling requires Wisdom. Without it you can never feel; you'd just be a "brain in a vat". With a minimal wisdom, you could set out to do things but would almost immediately lose focus and quit.
Taking action requires Charisma. Without it, you can perceive (Wisdom) and understand the significance of what you perceive (Intelligence) but lack the personality to will yourself to take any actions. With a minimal charisma, you would need to be set upon a path - you'd see a small setback, intellectually know how to overcome it, but lack the force of personality to actually change course unless someone tells you to or you have a lot at stake.
Reasoning requires Intelligence. Without it, you can perceive and react, but only according to some set program/instincts; you'd be mindless. With only a minimal intelligence, you'd have as much "free will" as a goat.


personality' - the ability to assert your personality on others.
Not just on others. On the world.



There are outliers for everything, of course. Search is an Int skill only because Spot is already a Wis skill. Heal does not appeal to one's perception of the world so much as the knowledge and practice of medical treatment, and yet it is a Wis skill (to say nothing of Profession, which was just thrown in). Charisma has Use Magic Device...yeah. But that's the basic conclusion I've arrived at from the crunch perspective. And thanks, imp_fireball, for provoking me to think about this.

I do not believe these are outliers.
Search is an Int skill because it's not an intuitive perception. It involves reasoning out "now where could a key possibly be hidden here".
Being a good doctor is not primarily a matter of intelligence. As long as you have a sufficient level (IQ 130) having more doesn't make you a better doctor. Rather, good judgment and perceptiveness matter far more.
Profession is all about reacting appropriately. It's true that there's a lot of professions out there - but let's take cooking for example. Knowing how to bake the best cake in the world is Intelligence (Craft: cooking). Actually running a restaurant (Profession) requires far less smarts and far more sense.
Use Magic Device is the most direct "I see a power source and force it to do my will" there is... Charisma fits best.

Math_Mage
2010-05-01, 01:23 PM
I do not believe these are outliers.
Search is an Int skill because it's not an intuitive perception. It involves reasoning out "now where could a key possibly be hidden here".
Being a good doctor is not primarily a matter of intelligence. As long as you have a sufficient level (IQ 130) having more doesn't make you a better doctor. Rather, good judgment and perceptiveness matter far more.
Profession is all about reacting appropriately. It's true that there's a lot of professions out there - but let's take cooking for example. Knowing how to bake the best cake in the world is Intelligence (Craft: cooking). Actually running a restaurant (Profession) requires far less smarts and far more sense.
Use Magic Device is the most direct "I see a power source and force it to do my will" there is... Charisma fits best.

True, these skills aren't outliers from the ability scores per se...it's just that the reasoning by which they fit under their respective ability is different from the reasoning I employed. Search is not so much a knowledge-based skill, as the others are; Heal employs both 'seeing what's wrong' (perception) and 'knowing what to do about it' (knowledge); and so on. It's not an imperfection in the system so much as it is an imperfection in my interpretation.

I hadn't thought about UMD that way before. Thanks for the insight.

imp_fireball
2010-05-01, 08:15 PM
Use Magic Device is the most direct "I see a power source and force it to do my will" there is... Charisma fits best.

I agree with this. A very charismatic person isn't 'strong willed' however (which usually implies defensive wills), they're just capable of better making their will manifest in others. If you saw one of these people in real life, you'd never associate strong will with them - you'd associate 'determination', but that may be because they were better at making themselves look more determined than others with their charisma.


Not just on others. On the world.

True. 'Others' essentially extends to 'the world' although it's difficult to shout and have the entire world hear you at once, not to mention the influence of other charismatic people is pressing against your own influence. Charismatic people are more easily remembered for their charisma too - at least for me (I remember the personality, but not necessarily the name considering I'm not good with names).


And thanks, imp_fireball, for provoking me to think about this.

Hey, it's my job.


Considering the matter only by looking at what's on the character sheet, my first thought is that creativity doesn't get slotted into any individual stat--rather, it's spread out over all three mental stats. If it does go to one stat, Wisdom is certainly not that stat.

Creativity doesn't necessarily disperse amongst all three stats and nor could it be a stat of its own, imo. Like everything involving perception, better perception of a situation can yield better resulting creativity - creativity to me is the ability to think about something unique that few have thought of. That takes wisdom, because wisdom is required to perceive the things that others missed. Note that a lot creativity in pop culture is just a re-hashing (conscious or unconscious) of old concepts. In fact, many of us don't even fully understand the idea of creativity, since it has been starved from certain groups as such. Note also that a wise person need not be creative. But it takes wisdom to learn how to be creative (there's no school course that teaches creativity - an art program teaches you artist techniques, not how to draw something that is thought provoking).


many of these skills require a good amount of creativity and intuition as well as strict knowledge-gathering.

But if someone knows all the knowledge in those avenues, then they require no creativity and intuition at all - just a good memory of the facts and then the ability to arrive at an obvious conclusion. Ie., decipher script: Jack compares the noble's hand writing with the one in the letter signed by said noble to determine if the order to cease adventuring actually came from the noble. After a successful check, he concludes that it did not in fact come from the noble. He can't make a knowledge check to determine why the person who wrote the letter would want the adventurers to discontinue, however.

If you extrapolate, you could say that it required creativity - but then again, creativity can be applied to pretty much any skill (if you swim in a creative way, you can prevent drowning; if you come up with a creative story via bluff, you can lie accordingly, etc.). The ability to perceive the amount of creativity necessary for a situation would be Wis. As would it be Wis to note the degree of creativity utilized in one thing to another (comparatively, they could say, "oh didn't take much to think of that/how did he know to think of that? That's really creative."). Creativity is knowing how to devise something that will appropriately affect another circumstance.

The thing with creativity and Wis is that applications of the Wis skill require creativity at certain points rather than where 'creativity can be applied, but it isn't necessary'. Note also that creativity in other skills doesn't apply a bonus unless the GM wants to give a circumstantial bonus to you (bluff even penalizes you for 'tall tales'). It could be argued that you are using Wis to come up with the creative application but since creativity is so passive, no check is needed and depends entirely upon what the players can think of.


the ability to transcend traditional ideas, rules, patterns, relationships, or the like, and to create meaningful new ideas, forms, methods, interpretations

Transcend traditions? The Int guy would be able to recall traditions with knowledge. The Cha guy would be able to reflect traditions with his physical demonstration of them. The Wis guy would be able to work around or 'transcend' traditions (perceive what isn't traditional and then find a way to appropriately work it into tradition). Craft (painting) is an Int check, but note that in order to craft all sorts of art, you need to put ranks into each appropriate craft. Profession (artist) covers all of it. I'll note that that's a bad argument (especially since you can't create anything with profession), but it serves my point anyway.

Wisdom implies making use of creativity - hence it and creativity are the most related, imo. Otherwise, you could be creative in one thing - perhaps through experience of performing that task, but you may like creativity in another thing. A person with drive to do a task may be more creative than another person too.


Taking action requires Charisma. Without it, you can perceive (Wisdom) and understand the significance of what you perceive (Intelligence) but lack the personality to will yourself to take any actions. With a minimal charisma, you would need to be set upon a path - you'd see a small setback, intellectually know how to overcome it, but lack the force of personality to actually change course unless someone tells you to or you have a lot at stake.

Your point about charisma tends to overlap with wisdom and intelligence. Charisma has nothing to do with taking action unless it's taking action to convince others to take action or pretending that you are taking action.

The willingness to take action or direct work ethic isn't really an ability score and non-dependent upon the other three. The closest relation is Int considering that covers 'chewy work' like crafting and mathematics.

Understanding the significance of what you perceive is also Wis, unless you mean 'understanding how to apply knowledge to the perception'. Note that animals and humans are very un-alike. At the barrier between 2 and 3 Int, creatures either reason or they don't. In that sense, 'understanding significance' applies to Int. There is no definitive answer that applies to all ranges of intelligence or wisdom, considering things change a bit at the very low range of animal and sapient (3 int or greater).


Reasoning requires Intelligence. Without it, you can perceive and react, but only according to some set program/instincts; you'd be mindless. With only a minimal intelligence, you'd have as much "free will" as a goat.


D&D and I both agree with this, with the exception that this applies more to the '1 or nothing' range - Int 0 means you are brain dead, whereas no Int score makes you a simple program or construct whose range of reactions/interactions must be specified upon creation and 1 Int indicates fundamental survival instincts like that of an insect (note that if you punch a cow, it will react in a way, while predictable, slightly different each time - its head may turn at a different angle with each punch and its eyes will flick in surprise in a different pattern, for example). A goat has probably 2 Int though, so it'd have more free will.

So yes, something with no Int makes any free will that Wis could have given it redundant. Kind of like multiplying a number by 0. Doesn't remove the second number's application when multiplied against higher numbers than 0 however.

Again, say you had Wis 18 but Int 0. You'd see lots of things, but you wouldn't be able to react because you had no mind to. Int 0, Wis 18 and Cha 18 is the same thing. Think of it like this: Because Int reflects learning, having 0 Int means you are unable to learn anything, and hence, unable to learn how to react when you perceive something. Technically, anything you experience in life involves learning (however major/minor). Additionally, with Int 0, you wouldn't be able to recall any knowledge that you had when your Int wasn't at 0.

Wis 0 and Int 18 means you would know how to react, but you wouldn't be able to orient yourself with what you see. You wouldn't be able to understand anything you see. What's the point of trying to make sense of something if you don't know the appropriate steps to make sense of it? You can't look up a word on Wiki or dictionary.com if you are unable to read the word and copy/paste it into the search bar. Mechanically, 0 Wis functions similarly to 0 Int.

Cha 0 and Int 18, Wis 18, means you have no sense of anything other then the self. Thus, you are unable to orient yourself socially, and so nothing matters. You can't move and are helpless, because the world doesn't exist to you. How can the world exist if you are unable to make any impression upon it? If you cannot perceive how others perceive you, how can you reason whether or not they exist? Again, the mechanics are practically identical.

Riffington
2010-05-02, 03:44 AM
(there's no school course that teaches creativity - an art program teaches you artist techniques, not how to draw something that is thought provoking).
This is untrue. Good art schools (or even programs) go far beyond technique and do teach creativity; this creativity is very helpful both in art and in other fields. There's a reason so many great musicians have gone to Juilliard, and it's not just selection.



But if someone knows all the knowledge in those avenues, then they require no creativity and intuition at all - just a good memory of the facts and then the ability to arrive at an obvious conclusion.
I don't know that this is true. Take your forgery example (nitpick: not decipher script). If Jack weren't creative, he could look at the noble's handwriting and the letter and say they are nonidentical. He could then look at the noble's sister's handwriting and the letter and say they are nonidentical. But if he's good/has high Int, he may be able to tell whether the sister could have done that forgery.


but then again, creativity can be applied to pretty much any skill (if you swim in a creative way, you can prevent drowning; if you come up with a creative story via bluff, you can lie accordingly, etc.)
Some more than others. Creativity is a fairly minor part of swimming - it's mildly helpful. Creativity is, in contrast, vital to Bluff. The skill relies on it. If a computer can successfully Bluff, it deserves rights (that's the Turing Test)... if it can successfully cross the English Channel, not so much.



The thing with creativity and Wis is that applications of the Wis skill require creativity at certain points
Which? I think fleshing this part out would be most helpful to your argument. The only skill I can think of where creativity is explicitly rewarded is Bluff; the only skill that directly deals with creativity is Craft.


Transcend traditions? The Int guy would be able to recall traditions with knowledge.
And come up with alternatives to those traditions, and figure out the logical implications. What Wisdom does for you is apply the brakes and produce the gut feel "yes, that's logical, but I feel it's wrong anyway".

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/drama.png
Alt Text: This happens in geek circles every so often. The 'Hey, this is just a system I can figure out easily!' is also a problem among engineers first diving into the stock market.


Profession (artist) covers all of it. I'll note that that's a bad argument (especially since you can't create anything with profession), but it serves my point anyway.
Craft (painting) is what it takes to make a creative painting; this could result in poverty or riches.
Profession (painter) is what it takes to make a living doing the same thing day in/day out. The point isn't your artwork, the point is maintaining a steady flow of income, managing costs and sales, promotions, etc.
Profession should be approximately as narrow as craft. Profession (artist) is a little too broad.



Charisma has nothing to do with taking action unless it's taking action to convince others to take action or pretending that you are taking action.
Not quite. Charisma covers the difference between Self and World, and is the stat of imposing Self on the World. A high-charisma person is therefore a "dynamo" - constantly Doing something even when she's sitting reading. A low-charisma person is one who "floats" - the world's currents move and she drifts along with them.


Note that animals and humans are very un-alike.
I think this disregards the main source of information we have on the difference between intelligence and wisdom. Animals are the embodiment of low-intelligence, comparatively-higher wisdom. They can act, and often act appropriately. They have no idea why, they are just built with instincts that serve them well in certain environments. Take them to a new environment, and those same instincts remain; they are just less useful.

Orzel
2010-05-02, 05:34 AM
Wis- Material supplier
Int- Manufacturing
Cha-Sales

Wis-The Hunter, gather raw material/info
Int- the Butcher, process material/info
Cha-The Salesman, sells refined material/info

Spot/Listen is Wis because it is about noticing the obvious
"Sounds = movement. Duh."
Search is Int because it is about processing the obvious into the hidden
"Rocks are good secret triggers. Look for rocks."

As for creativity
Wis- Noticing and replication of details, styles, and forms
Int- Creating ideas
Cha- Expressing your own take on things

Wisdom alone will mostly just "copy" ideas. Therefore "wisdom creativity" isn't praised often. They are the tribute or cover band with better players.
Intelligence alone creates new ideas and deals with complexity. They can cover plot holes, explain away fridge logic. They make the Violets come before the Roses, but they are still red and blue. "Intelligence creativity" is the same ideas done a different way, but still the same ideas.
Charisma alone fills in the blanks. It's words/notes/colors used. "Charisma creativity" is choose the actual items used therefore is praise if performed well and hated if not.

Math_Mage
2010-05-02, 06:35 AM
imp_fireball, you have sketched out a comprehensive and internally consistent understanding of the three mental stats, in which creativity slots primarily into Wisdom. Fine. But how does it hold up to the crunch? Remember, that's all I'm trying to work from here; to be honest, I don't give a fig about what the dictionary has to say, as it will invariably load the discussion with shades of meaning that are not found in the mechanics themselves. One might as well call the ability scores X, Y and Z instead of Int, Wis and Cha, the way I'm going about it.

So let's run down some of the skills. Int skills have a common pattern of being built through knowledge, but applied creatively. Craft, Appraise, Decipher Script, Search; all are thus. Cha skills are a matter of creative preparation and strong execution: Bluff, Disguise, Perform, Gather Information, etc. Wisdom, though...point me to a Wis skill that screams 'creativity' at you. I'm struggling to find one.

I previously mentioned the term 'intuition', and it seems to be a much better fit with the concept you're attempting to express than 'creativity'. Guessing at someone's motivations, from the Decipher Script example you gave, would be intuition rather than creativity at work. And a number of Wis-relevant attributes are intuitive: Heal, Spot, Sense Motive, Will saves, and so on...where I have trouble connecting those attributes to any creative impulse.

So if I had to refine my interpretation of the mental stats, it would run thus: Int expresses one's depth of knowledge and understanding; Wis expresses one's powers of perception and intuition; and Cha expresses one's mastery of interpersonal interaction.

PS. FWIW, I disagree with your intimation that schooling does not teach...whatever blend of creativity, intuition, and reasoning you're talking about. This view is challenged both by the data that Riffington brought up, and by the schooling I have received. But that's not something I can argue about, so I will refrain from further comment.

imp_fireball
2010-05-02, 01:13 PM
But if he's good/has high Int, he may be able to tell whether the sister could have done that forgery.

No, he'd just notice, by happenstance, that the sister's hand writing is similar to that of the original letter writer. It takes Int to notice this (since it was in the process of the work being done), but not creativity.

As for schools that teach creativity, I find it very hard to believe that a school can teach open mindedness and the ability to think outside the box - that's always been a matter of student initiative. If it could simply be explained, then it would fall into Int obviously, but it can't. You'd have to give me examples of how they teach this sort of thing.


Int skills have a common pattern of being built through knowledge, but applied creatively.

I'd agree with this, but notice that they don't depend on creativity. Someone who operates in any Int profession can really just succeed entirely on knowledge and not creativity.

Creativity can be applied to anything as I've already stated.


point me to a Wis skill that screams 'creativity' at you.

It's rather intrinsic actually (as in, not entirely evident). Profession relies on creativity to deal with customers in the business. How are you going to run the business? There's no clear manual that describes things. Neither does smiling at customers all the time help if you are the manager of the department as well. You have to be creative in order to compete.

Sense motive relies on you having a decent imagination upon what someone else is capable of. There's no clear manual that tells you what someone could be thinking at any given point in time. You can't smile at the person and expect them to be honest (unless you roll really high on intimidate and even then some GMs may convert the NPC to dislike you or back stab you later on).

Survival is probably the most evident example - what does the environment tell you? You must imagine what can be done with the environment in order to survive in its conditions. Although a manual can tell you how to survive in different environs, the environment changes all the time and you'll have to adapt. You can't reason with the environment through conversation.

Wisdom isn't entirely the epitome of creativity, but intrinsically relates to creativity the most - or at least imagination and perception. Imagination goes hand in hand with creativity and it takes perception to realize what's appropriate.

As for charisma, the most it relates to creativity or perception is probably gather information - who do you think would help you the most in regards to the information you are looking for? Although quite often, help is coincidental (although respectively in part due to your charisma).

Sense motive, spot, listen and profession aren't coincidental and neither is any of the Int skills. Survival is probably the most incidental/happenstance (but not coincidental).


Int expresses one's depth of knowledge and understanding; Wis expresses one's powers of perception and intuition; and Cha expresses one's mastery of interpersonal interaction.

I'd agree with this - except that I'd change understanding to 'learning capacity'. Understanding could fall into both Wis and Int - I'm sure a sage would be considered 'understanding'. Then again other wise people don't fully understand anything and merely acknowledge it; so again, it's up for debate.

IMO, the fact that someone understands something is a matter of personality - they have the drive to seek out and understand things as opposed a more apathetic person with the same Wis or Int score (although Int and Wis does often provide that drive quite often when they discover that they're 'good at it'). Also I'd change 'depth of knowledge' to 'probable/possible depth of knowledge, if any'. That way, a high Int character could live in a society of illiterates with no books for a thousand miles. It's impossible to fully know anything without books for reference (history is forgotten or sparse when passed by word of mouth).


As for creativity
Wis- Noticing and replication of details, styles, and forms
Int- Creating ideas
Cha- Expressing your own take on things

Now for a game of mix'n'match, I suppose.

Replace Wis with Int and we're good (GG :smalltongue:). Wis relates to creation of ideas because ideas are better created when stood up against a wall of other things that a person can perceive. Perception relates to Wis. That's why I argue that at least this sort of creativity (not the artsy type of creativity, but more the philosophical sort, I suppose) is related to Wis.

Then there's creativity in the form of forward thinking. It doesn't directly relate to intuition as some intuitive people just shrug and say they got a hunch - they don't pursue ideas with forward thinking. Forward thinking is more of a personality kind of thing, but IMO, it's supplemented the most by Wis.

A charismatic forward thinker would probably wish to match up their ideas with the opinions of those whom they associate with. Whereas an Intelligent forward thinker would most likely be inspired by whatever they read - in fact, I think it's least likely that a person dependent on Int alone would be a forward thinker (I can imagine them referencing texts and saying 'they got it right' and nothing else needs to be done except maybe to bring the ideas forward which they may or may not do; rather then come up with a new idea that refutes the old ideas). That's just my opinion though.


Intelligence alone creates new ideas and deals with complexity. They can cover plot holes, explain away fridge logic. They make the Violets come before the Roses, but they are still red and blue. "Intelligence creativity" is the same ideas done a different way, but still the same ideas.

While intelligence often associates with complexity, I wouldn't say that it creates new ideas. I'd agree with the fact that it often provides tribute or covers though - or represents something old in a new format.

Explaining away fridge logic or identifying fridge logic has a lot to do with Wis - it's all perception. An intelligent person can reference fridge logic, sure, but they aren't any better at explaining beyond repeating the definition more slowly or with simpler words.

It'd also be nice if you clarified that wisdom was the one to discover 'red and blue'. It had to be perceived first. After that, intelligence of course decided that 'red and blue' could be 'rose and violet'. Wisdom already knew that rose and violet had slightly different tones then other colors that could be categorized as red and blue but it was intelligence that chose to call these tones of red and blue rose and violet.


Charisma alone fills in the blanks. It's words/notes/colors used. "Charisma creativity" is choose the actual items used therefore is praise if performed well and hated if not.

That's an interesting take... naturally anyone can fill in the blanks, but I suppose a charismatic person may be the best one for the job. There ability to associate with the questions that people ask and then please those people with their presentations is the main motive here.
------

Here's another take, in the form of colors!

Intelligence - Intelligence is purple, because it's all about flare. It seeks to impress with its articulation. It is a wealth of learning and definition.

Charisma - Charisma is orange, because it's the main motive behind what inspires people to be captivated. Orange is a tasty color, both simple and deep all at once - and in a way, somewhat supernatural. It is a guiding color.

Wisdom - Wisdom is brown, because it's both absolute like the earth itself and yet often ignored. People accept it for what it is. It perceives everything and is very old and conservative. So intrinsic is it, that it reflects pretty much all aspects of life and perpetuity not at all reflected by the above colors. Brown is an opaque color, and does not reflect these things well however - it requires assistance from the other colors to truly derive meaning from it. Before something is discovered by Charisma or Intelligence, Wisdom already knew it (if vaguely), or could have known of it - there was at least one person who may have perceived it at any point in their lives.


Some more than others. Creativity is a fairly minor part of swimming - it's mildly helpful. Creativity is, in contrast, vital to Bluff. The skill relies on it. If a computer can successfully Bluff, it deserves rights (that's the Turing Test)... if it can successfully cross the English Channel, not so much.

This is where skills can overlap with ability scores, but a skill may be more reliant on one ability score then another (and so the designers decided that they should simply assign the most dependent ability score to that skill instead). Bluff mostly relies on charisma - the ability to put up a convincing face. Gather Information largely depends on perception of the community but it's even more dependent on the ability to get on somebody's good side - hence, charisma again. Perform (Comedy), while it could be facilitated by wittiness and sense of humor (wisdom), relies mostly on presentation - hence, charisma yet again. The same goes for any perform (instrument) which, while it could be argued that it relies on the ability to learn the instrument (Int) or be adept at manipulating its parts (Dex), relies mainly on the ability to enforce a decent presentation.

The fact that bluff rewards players for creativity is up to the GM. The system actually penalizes people for tall tales - although you could easily argue that coming up with tall tales, while requiring imagination are all in all foolish. Technically, the players can be rewarded for any sort of creativity by the GM in anything (except in the case of physical skills, mostly).

It's just that the Wis skills, while not requiring creativity from the player, would require creativity from the character. I acknowledge that some Wis skills don't entirely depend on creativity either or can even apply creativity (spot and listen). Some depend on it, though.


the point is maintaining a steady flow of income, managing costs and sales, promotions, etc.

That depends on creativity.


Profession (artist) is a little too broad.

Well technically, a generic artist could divulge in all sorts of art. Not necessarily 'well' however, since they aren't specialists. According to the mechanics, it evens out however (since a generic artist manages to meet everyone's tastes rather then the excessive tastes of one group of people; unless that group of people were wealthy, and even then that would open up the specialist to a whole new market of other specialists that they'd need to compete with and then it would even out again).


A high-charisma person is therefore a "dynamo" - constantly Doing something even when she's sitting reading.

Well I suppose a person with lots of charisma will perceive everyone else as boring or as people they need to consistently impress to maintain their status and thus become 'dynamos' - again however, this is a matter of personality. Stats don't necessarily define personality (although they can provide convenient aids in doing so).

Of course, people will be less willing to ridicule a high charisma person then someone with low charisma unless said person's reputation is that of a celebrity (and then people will ridicule them as if they were Paris Hilton or Britney Spears - particularly if they are far away from immediate contact with the person).


I think this disregards the main source of information we have on the difference between intelligence and wisdom. Animals are the embodiment of low-intelligence, comparatively-higher wisdom. They can act, and often act appropriately. They have no idea why, they are just built with instincts that serve them well in certain environments. Take them to a new environment, and those same instincts remain; they are just less useful.

This doesn't necessarily refute my argument about animals and humans. My point is that the average animal could probably adapt better then the average human if they were both equally as intelligent and the animal's biology/physiology was comparative to that of a human.

Again, it's difficult to make sense of what you perceive if you have the inability to learn anything beyond a few things to fill up your trick slots (as covered by handle animal rules in the 3.X system).
---

Yet Another Interpretation

Wisdom: The ability to receive and retrieve stimulus (not necessarily remember, but imagine - that sorta thing). Can interpret stimulus on a more vague level. For animals, this is enough to trigger their instincts.

Intelligence: The ability to interpret stimulus down to a raw definitive level. If both intelligence and wisdom are of reasonable levels, wisdom can aid severely in facilitating understanding.

Charisma: The ability to offer stimulus.

Math_Mage
2010-05-02, 05:10 PM
I'd agree with this, but notice that they don't depend on creativity. Someone who operates in any Int profession can really just succeed entirely on knowledge and not creativity.

1. I would like to see you telling a group of scientists that their Knowledge () was obtained without creativity. It's possible, sure...just as it's possible to run a Profession without creativity. But you are going to great lengths to undermine the creativity of Int-based fields--why? Because you're just that attached to the idea of creativity being primarily the domain of Wisdom? I don't get it.
2. If we're going to run by this measure of dependence, surely Charisma wins out. All the Cha-based skills I mentioned in my previous post depend on creative formulation.


Creativity can be applied to anything as I've already stated.

Then why insist on narrowing down creativity into one slot? If it applies to everything, then why not let it apply to everything?


It's rather intrinsic actually (as in, not entirely evident). Profession relies on creativity to deal with customers in the business. How are you going to run the business? There's no clear manual that describes things. Neither does smiling at customers all the time help if you are the manager of the department as well. You have to be creative in order to compete.

"This was my father's business, and his father's before him, and his father's..." There is nothing intrinsically creative about running a profession. And yes, often there is a clear manual that describes things. That's how businesses operate. But hey, Profession isn't exactly the skill you first think of when you think of Wis skills--let's look at the others, eh?


Sense motive relies on you having a decent imagination upon what someone else is capable of. There's no clear manual that tells you what someone could be thinking at any given point in time. You can't smile at the person and expect them to be honest (unless you roll really high on intimidate and even then some GMs may convert the NPC to dislike you or back stab you later on).

I don't see how this 'there's no clear manual' thing translates to especial, intrinsic creativity. And what you describe above is simply caution. 'He might be bluffing' is not an attitude that takes creativity. Determining if he is bluffing takes intuition and perception, not creativity. Really, the only use of Sense Motive that implies creativity is the check made against sending secret messages.


Survival is probably the most evident example - what does the environment tell you? You must imagine what can be done with the environment in order to survive in its conditions. Although a manual can tell you how to survive in different environs, the environment changes all the time and you'll have to adapt. You can't reason with the environment through conversation.

Again with the manual thing. Thinking outside the box isn't creativity when there's no box to begin with. And Survival, like Profession, is one of those multi-attribute skills that were slotted into single attributes to keep paperwork to a minimum. Does it take intelligence and knowledge to run a business? Does it take good intuition and perception to run a business? Does it take good people skills to run a business? And in practice, survival in the wilderness runs off a melange of physical stats, knowledge, perception, and intuition (a 5-stat skill). Creativity helps the Survival skill just like everything else, but survival doesn't depend on it.


Wisdom isn't entirely the epitome of creativity, but intrinsically relates to creativity the most - or at least imagination and perception. Imagination goes hand in hand with creativity and it takes perception to realize what's appropriate.

Imagination? Appropriate? Now we're throwing terms in willy-nilly. And none of them seriously strengthens your justification for considering creativity and Wisdom to go hand in hand, particularly not from the crunch perspective.


As for charisma, the most it relates to creativity or perception is probably gather information - who do you think would help you the most in regards to the information you are looking for? Although quite often, help is coincidental (although respectively in part due to your charisma).

Wait, when did perception become tied to creativity in this discussion? And when did creativity lose it importance in bluffing, diplomacy, performance and so on?


Sense motive, spot, listen and profession aren't coincidental and neither is any of the Int skills. Survival is probably the most incidental/happenstance (but not coincidental).

...:smallconfused:

This 'coincidental', I do not understand where it came up in discussion.


I'd agree with this - except that I'd change understanding to 'learning capacity'. Understanding could fall into both Wis and Int - I'm sure a sage would be considered 'understanding'. Then again other wise people don't fully understand anything and merely acknowledge it; so again, it's up for debate.

Fair enough. Understanding is a broad term.


IMO, the fact that someone understands something is a matter of personality - they have the drive to seek out and understand things as opposed a more apathetic person with the same Wis or Int score (although Int and Wis does often provide that drive quite often when they discover that they're 'good at it'). Also I'd change 'depth of knowledge' to 'probable/possible depth of knowledge, if any'. That way, a high Int character could live in a society of illiterates with no books for a thousand miles. It's impossible to fully know anything without books for reference (history is forgotten or sparse when passed by word of mouth).

The distinction between native intelligence and acquired learning is not large, in the crunch, and is satisfied by the suggestion of 'learning capacity'. Hard cases make bad law, and borderline scenarios make bad definitions.


The fact that bluff rewards players for creativity is up to the GM. The system actually penalizes people for tall tales - although you could easily argue that coming up with tall tales, while requiring imagination are all in all foolish. Technically, the players can be rewarded for any sort of creativity by the GM in anything (except in the case of physical skills, mostly).

Obviously improper application of creativity leads to poor results. That does not make creativity any less critical to bluffing well.


It's just that the Wis skills, while not requiring creativity from the player, would require creativity from the character. I acknowledge that some Wis skills don't entirely depend on creativity either or can even apply creativity (spot and listen). Some depend on it, though.

Which is no more than can be said for Int or Cha.


[I]Yet Another Interpretation

Wisdom: The ability to receive and retrieve stimulus (not necessarily remember, but imagine - that sorta thing). Can interpret stimulus on a more vague level. For animals, this is enough to trigger their instincts.

Intelligence: The ability to interpret stimulus down to a raw definitive level. If both intelligence and wisdom are of reasonable levels, wisdom can aid severely in facilitating understanding.

Charisma: The ability to offer stimulus.

This I like intuitively. Haven't tried to apply the crunch to it. The color-based one seems needlessly roundabout to me.

imp_fireball
2010-05-02, 08:27 PM
1. I would like to see you telling a group of scientists that their Knowledge ([insert science here]) was obtained without creativity. It's possible, sure...just as it's possible to run a Profession without creativity. But you are going to great lengths to undermine the creativity of Int-based fields--why? Because you're just that attached to the idea of creativity being primarily the domain of Wisdom? I don't get it.
2. If we're going to run by this measure of dependence, surely Charisma wins out. All the Cha-based skills I mentioned in my previous post depend on creative formulation.

1. Int doesn't depend on creativity. It can utilize creativity but it doesn't depend on it.
2. I wouldn't say they depend on it. Like Int, you can use creativity to help perform the skill but it doesn't depend on it.


Then why insist on narrowing down creativity into one slot? If it applies to everything, then why not let it apply to everything?

It does apply to everything. It's just that there's a few wisdom skills that depend on it absolutely. Hence, wisdom is more related to creativity then the others.


"This was my father's business, and his father's before him, and his father's..." There is nothing intrinsically creative about running a profession. And yes, often there is a clear manual that describes things. That's how businesses operate. But hey, Profession isn't exactly the skill you first think of when you think of Wis skills--let's look at the others, eh?

Running a profession in itself isn't creative - but intrinsically, you must be creative to keep it running depending on circumstances. You must be creative in marketing and competing with similar businesses.


Wait, when did perception become tied to creativity in this discussion? And when did creativity lose it importance in bluffing, diplomacy, performance and so on?

I've been implying that nearly from the OP actually. I didn't say creativity lost its importance in the charisma skills. It's just that it isn't necessary to the performance of those skills. You can make a cover of an existing song and still get the same money from the perform check. In order to make money out of creativity, profession (musician) would probably help you to market a new song that isn't popular yet or profession (song writer) (or craft (song) which is less generalized but not really covered by craft rules since the amount of money it makes depends largely on marketing and public opinion of the song - a song cannot be appraised for value whereas an item that uses actual materials can; hence, I don't think craft is appropriate for anything to do with art unless there's some sort of fascist art authoritarian state buying up all art at a set value).

Math_Mage
2010-05-03, 01:01 AM
Running a profession in itself isn't creative - but intrinsically, you must be creative to keep it running depending on circumstances. You must be creative in marketing and competing with similar businesses.

And this is different from the creativity it takes to tell a good lie, play a good performance, analyze an obscure script based on perceived relationships with ones you know--how, exactly? You keep saying and saying that Wisdom has a uniquely intrinsic connection to creativity (this arbitrary distinction between 'helps you perform a skill' and 'required for a skill'), but how does "creativity helps you run a profession" differ from any of these others? My character has ranks in Profession (Sailor). Where did creativity enter into it?

imp_fireball
2010-06-25, 08:50 PM
Well, charisma reciprocates creativity, whereas wisdom involves 'higher echelon' creativity.

Wisdom incorporates the ability to recall sensations and find out the 'why' behind creativity. Thus, they are able to put meaning into creativity and use creativity to get things done.

Other forms of creativity, like drawing something flashy is reciprocation. It doesn't help get things done. But it happens to be flashy and fall into the creativity paradigm by social definition.

Intelligence helps organize creative pursuits.

Thinker
2010-06-25, 09:08 PM
Your opinion is wrong.

The Glyphstone
2010-06-25, 09:10 PM
No, your opinion is wrong.

*winds up popcorn machine*

Thinker
2010-06-25, 09:12 PM
I never claimed my opinion was right.

Math_Mage
2010-06-25, 10:43 PM
Well, charisma reciprocates creativity, whereas wisdom involves 'higher echelon' creativity.

Wisdom incorporates the ability to recall sensations and find out the 'why' behind creativity. Thus, they are able to put meaning into creativity and use creativity to get things done.

Other forms of creativity, like drawing something flashy is reciprocation. It doesn't help get things done. But it happens to be flashy and fall into the creativity paradigm by social definition.

Intelligence helps organize creative pursuits.

Your statements are too vague to be evaluated. What is the 'reciprocation' of creativity? What is 'higher echelon' creativity? What does, say, the Survival skill have to do with finding out the 'why' behind creativity? How is producing a drawing not 'getting things done' in the way that Wisdom is? What is the 'organization of creative pursuits' that Intelligence supposedly helps with?

Knaight
2010-06-25, 10:48 PM
And yet another thread that explains why I cut mental stats. Of course, I don't play D&D, the system involved is a little easier to tweak at such a drastic level.

imp_fireball
2010-06-26, 03:58 AM
Your statements are too vague to be evaluated. What is the 'reciprocation' of creativity? What is 'higher echelon' creativity? What does, say, the Survival skill have to do with finding out the 'why' behind creativity? How is producing a drawing not 'getting things done' in the way that Wisdom is? What is the 'organization of creative pursuits' that Intelligence supposedly helps with?

Discerning 'why' isn't a skill, that's why.

If you don't know what reciprocation or symbolism is, look it up in a dictionary. I can't help you beyond that.

EDIT: Survival requires the senses. Recalling sensations is senses. Pretty simple thar, hur hur.

Organization involves intelligence because the knowledge skill in itself recalls organized facts. Intelligence is the ability to orient those facts and recall them appropriately. If intelligence is put to creativity then it involves its organization. Say you want to apply some logistical method to creativity - that would require intelligence.

Math_Mage
2010-06-26, 01:31 PM
Discerning 'why' isn't a skill, that's why.

That's why what? I didn't even ask a 'why' question.


If you don't know what reciprocation or symbolism is, look it up in a dictionary. I can't help you beyond that.

I know what the words mean, and I don't appreciate your condescending attitude. The phrase "reciprocation of creativity" does not parse well. Do you mean that, say, bluffing involves receiving creativity and giving it in return (reciprocating)? Also, since you have not previously mentioned symbolism, I am confused as to why you bring it up now.


EDIT: Survival requires the senses. Recalling sensations is senses. Pretty simple thar, hur hur.

Everything requires the senses. This has very little to do with your previous comments about 'higher echelon' creativity and finding out the 'why' behind creativity and so forth, which is what I asked about. So don't 'hur hur' at me.


Organization involves intelligence because the knowledge skill in itself recalls organized facts. Intelligence is the ability to orient those facts and recall them appropriately. If intelligence is put to creativity then it involves its organization. Say you want to apply some logistical method to creativity - that would require intelligence.

"Say you want to apply some logistical method to creativity." This sentence, it has no meaning. I understand that organization involves intelligence--it is this nebulous process of 'organizing creativity' that puzzles me.

Ihouji
2010-06-27, 02:26 AM
I've generall viewed Int as acedemic learning ability, whereas Wis is Judgement.

This is the view I have always taken as well.

This more or less accounts for all the people I know who are incredibly intelligent and yet still make incredibly stupid decisions (high Int, low Wis).

It also accounts for the all the stories of people who drop out of high school and yet still become incredibly successful (low Int, high Wis).

imp_fireball
2010-06-27, 03:40 AM
"Say you want to apply some logistical method to creativity." This sentence, it has no meaning. I understand that organization involves intelligence--it is this nebulous process of 'organizing creativity' that puzzles me.

Maybe you should tell me specifically what puzzles you and then I can narrow it down to make my opinion more clear.

Also, please don't get offended. It's all just debatin' dialogue.

Math_Mage
2010-06-27, 03:54 AM
Maybe you should tell me specifically what puzzles you and then I can narrow it down to make my opinion more clear.

Also, please don't get offended. It's all just debatin' dialogue.

-I have difficulty interpreting the phrase 'reciprocation of creativity' as it applies to Charisma.
-I don't understand what you are referring to as 'higher echelon creativity' and 'the 'why' behind creativity' when you talk about Wisdom.
-I see little reason to define intelligence in terms of 'organizing creativity' if you are simply talking about the organization and recall of knowledge.
-I have trouble understanding why creativity needs to be the focus of this analysis, when it doesn't appear to be uniquely important to any one mental attribute.

imp_fireball
2010-06-27, 04:40 AM
-I have difficulty interpreting the phrase 'reciprocation of creativity' as it applies to Charisma.
-I don't understand what you are referring to as 'higher echelon creativity' and 'the 'why' behind creativity' when you talk about Wisdom.
-I see little reason to define intelligence in terms of 'organizing creativity' if you are simply talking about the organization and recall of knowledge.
-I have trouble understanding why creativity needs to be the focus of this analysis, when it doesn't appear to be uniquely important to any one mental attribute.

You've said all this before, but you haven't given me reasons why.

I used the word 'reciprocation' because when someone receives ideas from another creator, they subconsciously recreate those ideas in their attempts to be creative. Drawing a cartoon of a dancing flower is an example of this - in layman's terms, someone has probably thought of this before.

Symbolism falls into this because I need to refer to it in order to fully define what I mean by 'higher echelon creativity'.

It's difficult, but I'm getting there, hopefully.

Symbolism contains meaning and hence it relates somewhat to the why behind creativity. The 'why' might involve the reason why someone created something - they wanted to convey a message via symbolism (ie.), or perhaps they wanted to make money on an original concept (like, the simpsons, ie.?). Doing it to win an art contest would be reciprocation, inevitably, since it falls on the decision of a few judges rather then an entire market and perhaps a publisher that may cancel your creation at a moment's notice. Hence 'why'. Why did someone create something? How do we explain this process of thought? The why behind creativity. It's hard to go beyond that.

Also, creating symbolism, whether through drawing paintings or writing fiction, is boring in D&D (D&D is already fiction in itself), unless there's some magical effect that you get from doing so. Hence, no skills actually relate to this except reciting poetry as bardic inspiration (which requires charisma; people don't want to hear if you aren't emotional about it).

Also, one of you questioned creativity, so that's why the debate is moving over to that now.

Off subject points of note:

- Does anyone agree that wisdom is required to improve one's sense of humor or to tell a lasting joke?

- Leonardo Davinci: IMO, he has both a high wis and int. How did he envision his replicas of modern technology? Clearly he was smart (good int), otherwise he wouldn't have pursued science to the point of innovation. He was also an artist - which, so far argued, doesn't relate to any of the ability scores; although since wisdom relates to the senses involving skills like spot and listen (and I know everyone can sense, but the degree to which someone can do so is invariably wisdom), I'd argue that really good art requires wisdom since it involves the ability to sense and create beauty from scratch, rather then to recreate it or reciprocate it (ie. drawing a land scape from what you see).

Rothen
2010-06-27, 04:46 AM
Now if only IQ was an accurate measurement of one's intellect.

Oh well.

imp_fireball
2010-06-27, 04:47 AM
Now if only IQ was an accurate measurement of one's intellect.

Oh well.

Humans are too complicated for that.

Hell, animals are too.

Math_Mage
2010-06-27, 01:32 PM
You've said all this before, but you haven't given me reasons why.

Presumably you are referring to the last point, as the others do not appear to require further explanation, at least from my point of view. I just don't see how creativity in bluffing, disguise, or performance is any less important than creativity in spotting, survival or professional work. Presumably the rest of your post is meant to answer this to some extent.


I used the word 'reciprocation' because when someone receives ideas from another creator, they subconsciously recreate those ideas in their attempts to be creative. Drawing a cartoon of a dancing flower is an example of this - in layman's terms, someone has probably thought of this before.

Just because there's nothing new under the sun does not mean it requires no original creativity on the part of the individual to engage in these practices. Composers: High int, high wis, or high cha? And would you say they are creative, or no?


Symbolism falls into this because I need to refer to it in order to fully define what I mean by 'higher echelon creativity'.

It's difficult, but I'm getting there, hopefully.

Symbolism contains meaning and hence it relates somewhat to the why behind creativity. The 'why' might involve the reason why someone created something - they wanted to convey a message via symbolism (ie.), or perhaps they wanted to make money on an original concept (like, the simpsons, ie.?). Doing it to win an art contest would be reciprocation, inevitably, since it falls on the decision of a few judges rather then an entire market and perhaps a publisher that may cancel your creation at a moment's notice. Hence 'why'. Why did someone create something? How do we explain this process of thought? The why behind creativity. It's hard to go beyond that.

1. I'm not seeing anything here related to what Wisdom actually is in D&D, only to how your interpretations of creativity play out in this context. Is Wisdom having a good reason to create a painting? Is Wisdom knowing why somebody created a painting?
2. Your use of 'reciprocation' here is very different from what you said above. Why does creativity become reciprocal--that is, an unconscious recreation of past work (as per your definition)--simply because it is judged by a different set of people? Is it your contention that an artist looking to win an art contest and the same artist looking to make money on an original concept cannot produce the same work? If so, why? If not, how do you justify calling one the product of 'higher echelon' creativity, and the other the product of 'reciprocal' creativity?


Also, creating symbolism, whether through drawing paintings or writing fiction, is boring in D&D (D&D is already fiction in itself), unless there's some magical effect that you get from doing so. Hence, no skills actually relate to this except reciting poetry as bardic inspiration (which requires charisma; people don't want to hear if you aren't emotional about it).

If none of the mechanics of D&D relate to the creation of symbolism, why the pressing need to assign it to some particular attribute? If Wisdom in D&D is not used in the context of symbolism, then why define it in terms of symbolism?


Off subject points of note:

- Does anyone agree that wisdom is required to improve one's sense of humor or to tell a lasting joke?

Sure, if we're talking about wisdom as 'higher-echelon' creativity--but you have yet to adequately define the latter, let alone demonstrate an intrinsic connection between the two.


- Leonardo Davinci: IMO, he has both a high wis and int. How did he envision his replicas of modern technology? Clearly he was smart (good int), otherwise he wouldn't have pursued science to the point of innovation. He was also an artist - which, so far argued, doesn't relate to any of the ability scores; although since wisdom relates to the senses involving skills like spot and listen (and I know everyone can sense, but the degree to which someone can do so is invariably wisdom), I'd argue that really good art requires wisdom since it involves the ability to sense and create beauty from scratch, rather then to recreate it or reciprocate it (ie. drawing a land scape from what you see).

da Vinci was the quintessential Renaissance man: all of his mental stats were high.

You say that 'really good art' requires creating beauty from scratch; but the Mona Lisa is a portrait. And what does the creation of beauty have to do with 'skills like spot or listen'?

Cogidubnus
2010-06-27, 01:43 PM
Interesting, haven't read the whole thread, but I will suggest this - the human brain only ever works at 1/3 actual capacity. Perhaps INT enhancing items actually simply allow you to use more of that capacity without going crazy? So a wizard with 20 INT and 10 WIS and +6 headband of intellect, although he has an IQ of 140 by your math, is still much more mentally capable than an ordinary human, hence the enormous boost to INT based stats.

grarrrg
2010-06-27, 02:52 PM
Wow... If the thread is raised by Necromancy, but the Necromancer is the original poster is it still Undead?

OH! I know how to solve this:

The original poster is Hitler, all the replies that disagree with him are Nazis. Therefore by Godwin's Law (and its corrilaries):
1: This thread is hereby over. (Was going in circles anyway)
2: Because I mentioned Hitler/Nazis my side of the arguement automatically loses.
3: Because I support both the original poster AND the dissenters, then they lose as well.
4: Because the other side lost, both sides win.
5: Everybody is now happy :smallbiggrin:

Math_Mage
2010-06-27, 03:08 PM
Wow... If the thread is raised by Necromancy, but the Necromancer is the original poster is it still Undead?

OH! I know how to solve this:

The original poster is Hitler, all the replies that disagree with him are Nazis. Therefore by Godwin's Law (and its corrilaries):
1: This thread is hereby over. (Was going in circles anyway)
2: Because I mentioned Hitler/Nazis my side of the arguement automatically loses.
3: Because I support both the original poster AND the dissenters, then they lose as well.
4: Because the other side lost, both sides win.
5: Everybody is now happy :smallbiggrin:

The thread is within the Forum Rules limits on necromancy.

imp_fireball
2010-06-27, 03:29 PM
Composers: High int, high wis, or high cha? And would you say they are creative, or no?

Difficult to judge. Knowledge of how to compose requires int, but then again composing is just a skill like anything else - truly famous composers might have good wis if they are able to perceive what's been done before and then work in something unique and fresh.

All of that falls into the bounds of creativity, so yes they're creative.


the human brain only ever works at 1/3 actual capacity.

I don't think this is actually proven. I think I remember reading somewhere that it actually works at full capacity but only during times of absolute concentration or stress. Most of the time, a person is relaxed and/or sleeping, hence 1/3 capacity on average, probably.


Perhaps INT enhancing items actually simply allow you to use more of that capacity without going crazy?

Or maybe his neurons fire faster, effectively increasing his meat computer's processing speed?

There's another area of the brain involving perception (and that's perception of all things), executive functions, etc., and that would strongly preclude wisdom probably.


You say that 'really good art' requires creating beauty from scratch; but the Mona Lisa is a portrait. And what does the creation of beauty have to do with 'skills like spot or listen'?

Ah... never mind then.

Also, I don't think Da Vinci had to be all that charismatic.


If Wisdom in D&D is not used in the context of symbolism, then why define it in terms of symbolism?

I wanna go beyond D&D here. Main reason for it is, role playing is enhanced when we stretch into reality rather then remaining with the bounds of a game.


Is Wisdom having a good reason to create a painting? Is Wisdom knowing why somebody created a painting?

Yes it is. Both of those uses of wisdom are perception. In construed D&D terms, that would be sense motive to connect evidence or empathy to understand one's feelings (latter isn't a skill, but sense motive or a wis check can suffice).


Is it your contention that an artist looking to win an art contest and the same artist looking to make money on an original concept cannot produce the same work? If so, why? If not, how do you justify calling one the product of 'higher echelon' creativity, and the other the product of 'reciprocal' creativity?

Many artists win art contests, but only a few make it big. This is true of real life.

People generally realize a work as being 'higher echelon' when they've analyzed it again and again and possibly come up with different definitions.

Thus, the bible would be higher echelon. Mona Lisa would be higher echelon if it wasn't a portrait (because it is a portrait, the only reason for her smiling is because the girl was probably smiling when she had her portrait done - that's just one conclusion though, it'd be possible that the artist simply added it in, but nonetheless, it leaves less room for thought about the subject beyond 'it was a nicely done picture').


It also accounts for the all the stories of people who drop out of high school and yet still become incredibly successful (low Int, high Wis).

It takes creativity to do that sort of thing, no?

The same goes for people that graduated high school but didn't major in anything in university or whatever.

Hague
2010-06-27, 03:48 PM
Dexterity ~ Intelligence
Strength ~ Charisma
Constitution ~ Wisdom

Wisdom is your wits, your sense of the world, and the things around you. Higher wisdom means you are in-tune with the world around you. You recognize things that belong and things that don't belong because you've been paying attention. You know that the dot on the horizon wasn't there before and you can tell that it's moving because of your previous experiences and on gut instinct. You know that this illusion isn't real because it doesn't feel like what you've felt, seen, or heard. Wisdom is the conjunction of common sense and experience. "I've been here before and I've seen it all, and this is nothing like the way it's supposed to be. I can't tell you what it is, though."

Intelligence is your capacity for thinking quickly and reasoning. You can formulate a solution to a purely hypothetical problem based on logic and spatial reasoning. Chaotic systems, like people, tend to frustrate you because they don't always behave logically. You are quick to think of a solution to a problem, but it doesn't let you know if what you're doing is a prudent choice in the long-run. It simply lets you know that you CAN do it, not whether or not it is a good idea. You tend to have a capacity to know more things than others who've spent the same time learning to do them as you. You store large amounts of information and have a great memory but simply having that does not mean that you are wise enough to apply them in the best way possible. "Oh yeah, I can tell you all about how to make a lever and pulley system to move that boulder out of the way... Not sure if it's a good idea though..."

Charisma is as mentioned earlier, your force of personality and will-to-power. Charismatic people tend to be more creative with their actions and behaviors because while they may not understand exactly what their actions can do, or how to best go about them, they have a gut feeling that things will work out right, and that feeling has a tendency to make others go along with them. In a way, you are in opposition to highly intelligent characters, whom have a hard time understanding people. As a charismatic person, you understand how to get people to do things because you play creatively with how to behave around them to get the desired result. This doesn't necessarily mean that you are greatly disposed towards being able to pick out a liar who is just as charismatic as you. Just because people listen to you and like your ideas or beliefs doesn't mean you are any less susceptible the influence of those with a similar panache. "Well, if you really feel that way, you can go ahead but you know there are just simply better ways to get things done, I can just feel that. What, you don't believe me? Look, just trust me."

imp_fireball
2010-07-04, 02:37 AM
The problem with creativity and bluffing is that you can only get so creative before the story becomes unbelievable. The SRD penalizes you for 'tall tales'.

Beyond that, bluffing requires putting up a decent emotional front. The key (and this is true of real life) is convincing yourself that what you are bluffing about is actually the truth so that your face will appear to show that you believe what you yourself are saying (thus others will believe it as well).

You can't get 'too creative' with intelligence skills either.

Creativity is limited in disguise as well - just like bluff, you can't get too creative, otherwise people might notice you for other reasons entirely all together; if you are sketching an alibi, a lot of it requires research into real life backgrounds and such (say if you describe yourself as hailing from so-and-so town, you should make sure that it is a real town in case the guards do a background check on you and make sure that you have all the workings of someone from the area in order to avoid the suspicion of in-depth investigators; works well for people that really need to get undercover and even 'laying low' can be difficult without the research) rather then the writing up of an entirely fictional character from the depths of your mind.

Performance creativity might turn people off to it if it gets too 'weird' (say you decide to play a guitar that looks a toilet with a rat hanging out of it - it's creative and symbolizes the dirty aura of 'sludge punk' or <insert contemporary musical genre here>, sure, but people may say "well, that's weird" and "I feel uncomfortable now"). A lot of it requires rousing the crowd with your charm so that they begin to feel that the creativity that you are postulating is the hip thing (you sing with a voice of such captivity and emotional honesty that people ignore all the creative trappings and think 'darn this is cool, we should get into this'; later on, they begin to realize that the creative trappings are ironic symbolism, and thus even cooler).


Charismatic people tend to be more creative with their actions and behaviors because while they may not understand exactly what their actions can do, or how to best go about them, they have a gut feeling that things will work out right, and that feeling has a tendency to make others go along with them.

This is more true of the wise man. People don't listen to the wise man because he has a gut feeling. They listen to the charismatic man because he's cool. The charismatic man isn't any more creative, on a socially conscious level, then the wise man.

People may listen to the wise man if they get to know him, however the charismatic man makes a vastly better first impression.

To put things in perspective - the wise man might be a hermit, while the charismatic man might be Ryan Seacrest.

Seacrest, being only human, is put down constantly by Simon Cowell, which hinders the affect of his charisma (Simon also has a high charisma but makes no conscious effort to be liked, hence he falls midway compared to others that have high charisma). This proves that despite a high charisma, you can still be unpopular to some people, provided the audience is large enough.

Comparitively, people may feel silly for liking the hermit. Or they may find the hermit silly. Nobody will hate the hermit if the hermit makes no conscious effort to be hated but makes a conscious effort to be liked - the hermit will be thought of as a 'good person' but not necessarily one to garner attention - possibly even a source of boredom.

To be truly appreciated for his wisdom, the hermit would have to write a book about his life or a fictional novel that gets well published.


Dexterity ~ Intelligence
Strength ~ Charisma
Constitution ~ Wisdom

I think the mental scores allow for too diverse an array of thoughts to be associated with the physical scores in any way.

As for constitution, concentrate is a Con based skill, hence mental endurance is probably constitution, as it is for physical endurance. Doesn't mean you are smarter though.

In real life, much of our energy for the day is reserved for our brains. Which is why we often burn 2000+ calories a day, despite sitting down for most of it.

Dexterity seems to correlate with wisdom in some discussions, being that wisdom has to do with perception (and some rule, should relate to initiative checks) and that dexterity has to do with ranged attacks (which also require perception - although the correct term is 'precision' and/or 'accuracy').

Dexterity - Hand/Eye Coordination and Reflexes

It's argued that if one is highly dexterous they have 'high physical intelligence' (a term used in real life), meaning they can think very quickly about moving their body and how to move their body in different situations. Dexterity isn't a mental score though. Even though it largely involves parts of the brain, it helps you achieve physical tasks, not mental ones.

Wisdom - Perception (not being able to stare at a rock really hard and follow it while it moves (eye coordination), but being able to notice and hear small details whether they move or they are off, etc.) and mental orientation of body, mind and spirit (imo for the latter).