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View Full Version : What Class is Neraph Good At?



~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-28, 11:51 AM
Seriously? It seems like a hodge-podge with no coherency in any single class.

Adumbration
2010-04-28, 11:55 AM
I think they're good (but not great) for any class, really. If I had to choose, I would probably make a Warblade with Tiger Claw maneuvers. Nice synergy with the bonus on jump checks and good natural armor.

The neraph camouflage ability would suit a rogue, as well.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-28, 11:57 AM
Likely a class with sudden strike/sneak attack. Maybe a dip in Barbarian for pounce alternate class feature (so full attack charges).

They do get ability to deny dex to each foe/encounter (when charging or throwing).
Possible base class choices:
1) Factotum (they can get sneak attack)
2) Lurk
3) Rogue
4) Ninja
5) Swordsage

Coidzor
2010-04-28, 12:01 PM
They've got top billing in the swift hunter's handbook, so that's one mix that seems to suit them well.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-04-28, 12:26 PM
They do well on a gish, due to being an outsider without any LA.

Optimystik
2010-04-28, 12:28 PM
Tattooed Monk, Alter Self into various Outsiders while you smash face.

Aharon
2010-04-28, 12:28 PM
Ardent Dilettante, a PrC printed in the same book. It's a caster PrC that loses a caster level at first, has all skills as class skills and some bard flavored abilities.

It is almost as the class was specifically written for Neraphim, as to progress, you need martial weapon proficiencies, which Neraphim get by being outsiders, and an exotic weapon proficiency, which Neraphim get as part of their class abilties.

From an optimization standpoint, it's probably not worth the lost caster level, since it gains a bunch of abilities that don't synergize overly well, but it's very flavorful and has some useful abilities (Scent, Blindsense 10 feet, 1/day copy spell, 3 bonus feats).

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-28, 01:24 PM
Is this race good for Monk/OA Ninja Ascetic Stalker builds?

Doc Roc
2010-04-28, 02:13 PM
Neraphs are superb casters, for one single reason:

They are pure outsiders with an LA of +0. Polymorph away.

Tengu_temp
2010-04-28, 02:38 PM
+2 NA and being an outsider doesn't hurt any class. The other bonuses are just icing on the cake.

Why are these froggies LA 0?

Doc Roc
2010-04-28, 02:39 PM
+2 NA and being an outsider doesn't hurt any class. The other bonuses are just icing on the cake.

Why are these froggies LA 0?

Because _something_ has to be on even footing to compete with humans.

Greenish
2010-04-28, 02:46 PM
Because _something_ has to be on even footing to compete with humans.That doesn't appear to be WotC's modus operandi.

Tengu_temp
2010-04-28, 02:53 PM
Because _something_ has to be on even footing to compete with humans.

+2 NA is worth the same as an extra feat only because at higher level AC is not worth much anyway. +2 NA and being an outsider? Much more powerful.

Eldariel
2010-04-28, 03:26 PM
+2 NA is worth the same as an extra feat only because at higher level AC is not worth much anyway. +2 NA and being an outsider? Much more powerful.

Since we're all doing this: Objection! (http://techgeist.net/files/2009/07/phoenix-wright-objection.jpg)

Honestly now, +2 NA > Feat? For a caster, the NA doesn't even matter in some levels; you'll just Polymorph into something and lose it anyways. It's the Outsider-type vs. Feat, and yeah, that's a close call. In fact, Outsider-type is exactly worth a feat (Otherworldly), but a feat is more versatile while Outsider-type is set, so...I'd say the two races are broadly on the same level. Human is better for a larger number of things though.

Optimystik
2010-04-28, 04:08 PM
Strongheart Halfling gets +1 AC and a feat, which it can then use to become an Outsider also. And +1 to attack. And their AC applies to touch attacks.

How is this even a question? Neraphim are fine.

OracleofWuffing
2010-04-28, 06:56 PM
Anatomy and Physiology.


Is this race good for Monk/OA Ninja Ascetic Stalker builds?
What's on your allowed book list?

Thurbane
2010-04-28, 09:44 PM
Since we're all doing this: Objection! (http://techgeist.net/files/2009/07/phoenix-wright-objection.jpg)

Honestly now, +2 NA > Feat? For a caster, the NA doesn't even matter in some levels; you'll just Polymorph into something and lose it anyways. It's the Outsider-type vs. Feat, and yeah, that's a close call. In fact, Outsider-type is exactly worth a feat (Otherworldly), but a feat is more versatile while Outsider-type is set, so...I'd say the two races are broadly on the same level. Human is better for a larger number of things though.
NA +2 > than a feat because NA +1 costs a feat (either Improved natural Armor, or Deformity (Skin).

True, these are both pretty crappy feats, but feats nontheless. Also, if flaws are allowed, it more than offsets the Vulnerable flaw (-1 to AC), allowing you to buy a feat in exchange.

Eldariel
2010-04-28, 10:11 PM
NA +2 > than a feat because NA +1 costs a feat (either Improved natural Armor, or Deformity (Madness).

True, these are both pretty crappy feats, but feats nontheless. Also, if flaws are allowed, it more than offsets the Vulnerable flaw (-1 to AC), allowing you to buy a feat in exchange.

Yes, +2 NA is theoretically more than a feat, but as those feats aren't worth taking, they aren't really a relevant yardstick for how much a point of NA is worth. If anything, the fact that +2 NA isn't worth a feat is a proof that those feats are way underpowered.

If we compare NA +2 to e.g. Shock Trooper or Leap Attack or, indeed, Elusive Target (or any feat at the end of a feat chain or any PrC enabled by lots of feats), it'll come up woefully short. It may be fair to say +2 NA > Originally Intended Power Level Of Feats, but with how they got redesigned over the way and became relevant for auxillary (qualification) reasons, that's no longer the case.

Even in Core, I'd rather have Improved Trip, Power Attack, Spirited Charge and Leadership as a melee guy (only Rapid Shot as a ranged guy), and Extend Spell/Spell Penetration (Greater)/Quicken Spell/Craft Wondrous Items/Craft Rods/Craft Magic Arms & Armor/Improved Familiar/Natural Spell/Flyby Attack/Leadership as a caster. For a melee guy, it would be worth it due to the small amount of worthwhile feats and the existence of Fighter-dips but for a caster, hardly.

It's telling that every Char Op build tends to take Vulnerable as the first flaw anyways.


In other words, it's better than bad feats, but worse than good feats and as Human is free to take any feat whatsoever, it has to be compared to a good feat, so it loses out.

By the way, this is also a model case of WoTC's products having wildly fluctuating power levels.

Doc Roc
2010-04-28, 10:12 PM
That said, free vulnerable!

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-29, 12:51 PM
#1. Any book & 3rd party source

#2. I had propsed to my DM a Neraph Spellthief 1/Sorcerer 4/Unseen Seer 5/Arcane Trickster 10 with Master Spellthief and every Sneak Attack feat. Is this decent?

Bayar
2010-04-29, 01:11 PM
Neraphs are good because they get the Outsider type.

A human needs to use it's bonus feat on Otherworldly to be on even footing with Neraphs. Thus, if you want to be an outsider, Neraphs are aproximately on even footing with humans.

And, as previously stated, Wizard + outsider + polymorph line of spells = godness.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-29, 01:15 PM
Neraphs are good because they get the Outsider type.

A human needs to use it's bonus feat on Otherworldly to be on even footing with Neraphs. Thus, if you want to be an outsider, Neraphs are aproximately on even footing with humans.

And, as previously stated, Wizard + outsider + polymorph line of spells = godness.

Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...

Doc Roc
2010-04-29, 03:42 PM
Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...Polymorph is a lie...

It hits alter self too, and a number of other effects, as well as making you immune to a fair set of spells. You asked, we answered.