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Human Paragon 3
2010-04-28, 12:41 PM
I believe in taking a deeper look into the psychological aspects of the DM/Player relationship. Recently, I have been considering the weighty role of the DM. His job is to make sure the game progresses and that all of the players have fun. In order to do this, the DM must become a manager of sorts, keeping the players engaged, tracking hundreds of variables, developing an ongoing story and bringing to bare an incredible amount of control on the player's in-game environments.

This series of weekly conversations will serve as a forum to examine specific DMing/RPing issues, the intention of which is to help advanced DMs improve their games and promote conversation about game master theory.

I've decided to retroactively make a thread I started last week part 1 in this series. In a moment I'll post the part two thread.


Additionally, feel free to make use of this main thread to discuss general DMing concepts, ask questions to the playground or generally talk shop.

Part 1: Impossible Situations and PC Egos
(http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149467)

Cliff Notes:

1) Always expect your players to attack. Even good roleplayers in clearly dodgy situations. Maybe "expect" is the wrong word, but certainly PLAN FOR your PCs attacking even against impossible odds, because there is a fair chance they will. They are PCs and this is D&D, and your instincts that they feel everything will be CR appropriate and that they are the conquering heroes is a good one. Describing an enemy as totally awesome and badass is a good idea, but PCs take on impossible every day, and this particular bad guy probably won't immediately stand out as worse than the huge dragon they killed last week (for example) even with a paragraph of intimidating prose attached to it.

2) Leave outs. There are many different kinds of enemies out there, and some admittedly have no reason to leave your party alive. Some hold a grudge, or are murdering bastards, or are hired killers, or maybe it's personal. In cases like these, you won't want to show your NPCs or monsters backing down and letting their prey go, so leave outs. Maybe there is a great hiding place nearby. Maybe another monster comes by and distracts the original monster. Maybe a friendly NPC can show up and rescue the PCs. Chances are I haven't mentioned the exact solution to your problem here, and you'll need to come up with one on your own, but leaving outs is usually a good idea. Whatever outs you do decide to leave, make them obvious. The last think you want is for a TPK followed by "Well, if you had passed your spot check you would have seen the auto-win artifact."

3) Sometimes, you just have to beat the party down. Hopefully this won't result in frequent TPKs. If it does, either you're doing something very wrong or your party is, or maybe your party just can't deal with/doesn't want a game where they often have to run from fights. But if you do it right, you will be able to put the PCs in their places and let them know, "Not this time, not against these guys." A swift beat down sends a message that there are baddies you can't beat in a way warnings, metagame knowledge, portents and friendly advice just can't manage. After one good smack down, they'll probably wise up.

4) Think about encounter design in a larger context. The advice of sending one difficult creature against the PCs which they barely beat or survive, then showing them a large group of the monsters is sound. If they know they were almost wiped out by one baddie, taking on 30 will be an obviously suicidal action, and they will run. Probably (See point #1). This becomes more difficult if the threat is a unique monster that the PCs have not yet encountered and does not use cohorts. Having a single, unbeatable monster like this, and then having the PCs encounter it, is generally a bad idea because you can't control your players' actions, and you should always expect them to attack (point #1 again!). If for some reason you must, always remember point 2.

5) Accept you're not in control. In the final analysis, DMs need to come to terms with the fact that they don't control everything, and some player decisions will lead to character death. Once you accept this, the players will have to accept it, too. Don't stress out about how they will know to run away. They'll figure it out, or they'll die. This is a harsh-but-true reality. If you've done your job, given fair warning and left outs (preferably multiple, obvious outs), you have nothing to feel bad about. The players are responsible for their characters lives, not you.


If you master the overwhelming encounter as a plot tool, the enjoyment of the game for everyone involved can be greatly increased. Sure, it's fun to take on all comers and end up on top, heroically crushing all who stand in your way, but it's fun to be afraid, too. That's why we like thrillers and horror movies and roller coasters. When the players are afraid of the very real possibility of character death, they will be more engaged and the game will be more exciting. And when they finally become strong enough (or get the maguffin) that will let them overcome the enemy, their victory will be all the sweeter.


Part 2: Keeping Players Engaged and Getting Them Hooked (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8392744#post8392744)

Cliff Notes:


Thanks to Valadi for help with this summary!

1) Give fun descriptions. Despite rumors to the contrary, the DM is the storyteller, and the way you tell a story is just as important as the individual plot points. Use your power of description to show the players why their characters are awesome, inside and out of combat.

2) Put your players in the drivers' seat. If you make the PC choices matter, and respond to their actions and interests, you make them an active part of the story, rather than passive observers. When the players feel that their actions have impact and their characters have agency in the world, they will be encouraged to be a more active part of the story. Using the backstory the players supply as story elements let you do this before the game even starts. If the PCs have NPCs in their lives/backstories, you can use this to everyone's advantage: the players get a story they are interested in because they themselves wrote it, and you don't have to write as many NPCs yourself. Once the game is under way, let players fill in the details. If they describe incidental setting elements, there's no reason not to run with it and make it part of their world. This also means listening to your players' table talk. Sometimes they have a better idea than YOU when it comes to an interesting plot twist. Use these! It will let them feel like they figured something cool out and solved a mystery while giving you a cool plot element to use.

3) Know your audience. Cater to your audience. This cannot be overstressed. If you already know your players going in to the game, then half the battle is already over. You know that 3 players love combat, 2 love intrigue and 1 is interested in roleplaying moral dilemmas, then you basically have your action ratio worked out ahead of time. If you don't know your audience well yet, watch them around the table and see how they respond, then give them more of what they like.


4) Pay attention to NPC details. When you stat out your NPCs, don't forget to give them a personality. Make them hate the BBEG for who he is, not just for being +2 CR higher than the other enemies. Populating the PCs world with other living, breathing beings with personalities, goals, dreams and fears goes a long way toward fully immersing your players. Suddenly, those orcs aren't just walking bags of XP, they're bullies and murderers who delight in torturing those weaker than themselves.

5) Manage the danger level of your sessions. You have to keep PCs alive long enough that the story can continue. You also need to threaten them enough that they take combat seriously. Both values of 'enough' will vary from group to group. (See also Pt. 3, Murder Death Kill (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8428659#post8428659))


DM's Miscellany
Expand player horizons. Give them something new to think about. Break genre conventions if you have to. Limit your rules lawyering. Rule of cool trumps rules as written. Challenge the PCs personally. Make them feel that there's a reason why that particular PC is in the party. Their character should have meaning/story that another adventurer wouldn't have.



Part 3: Murder Death Kill (Character Deaths in Your Campaign) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8428659#post8428659)

Cliff Notes:

Well, if there's anything we learned from this thread, it's that how to handle character death is purely subjective. Just about the only hard and fast rule that everybody can agree upon is: Don't make the DM/Player relation adversarial. As long as you're not actively trying to kill your PCs, things should go fine for your game.

However, character death and danger in general is a strong DMing tool that can be used to help create mood, atmosphere, tension or whatever else. How to use it is just a question of what you and your players actually want.

If you want to play a game where the PCs are the protagonists and they are fated big freaking heroes, then character death should be rare and resurrection common. If you want a gritty, high-tension game, and your players are OK with the risk, then you should make encounters dangerous and make resurrection hard or even impossible to come by.

If your game is more lighthearted, you might want to make it very difficult for PCs to die at all through the use of fiat or gimmicks.

However you decide to treat character death, just be aware of how it will effect the overall spirit of your game, ask your players what they're looking for, and tweak as necessary.


Part 4: Player vs. Player Conflict (How to Refocus or Resolve It) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8471930#post8471930)

Part 5: The Invisible Hand of the DM (How to nudge your players in the right direction, if there even is one) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8515781#post8515781)

Part 6: Victims, Villains, Bigwigs and Thugs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8605488#post8605488)

Part 7: Missing Persons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8758922#post8758922)

Part 8: Mano a Mano (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10448201#post10448201)

valadil
2010-04-28, 01:05 PM
Cool topic. Could I make a request for one of the advanced concepts?

One of the trends I've seen recently in GM advice articles is to give your players what they want. Within reason*, it's something I 100% support. What I'm having trouble with is figuring out what the players want.

I can usually read my party pretty well. 3 of them make it very obvious when they like something. I take note of what they enjoy and try to include more of that. They're easy.

One player says he's enjoying the game. But I don't detect any enjoyment from him. He seems bored or pissed off at the table. I can't watch to see what he likes, because he hasn't shown enjoyment during anything. If he can't show me what he likes, I can't identify it and incorporate more in the game.

Being a proactive GM, I asked him straight up how he felt about the game. He told me he wasn't into the main plot (which is totally fair) but was otherwise having a good time. Maybe he's withholding negative feedback just to be nice? That's his prerogative. But it doesn't help me improve things.

My other thought is that he doesn't know what he wants out of the game. Some players, especially those who haven't GMed, don't always have the ability to articulate what it is about the game that they like.

In either case, just asking him what he wants doesn't work. I wanted to know if anyone else had any tricks for figuring out what excites certain players. This certainly seems to fit into the psych aspects of the DM/Player relationship.

And just for discussion's sake, here's some info about what I've tried with this player. I felt the game was a little too railroaded at first. I'd seen him do well in Mage games before, so I figured making the game more open ended would help. I gave them some totally free form challenges and made it through the last session with only a single d20 rolled for PC combat. He zoned out for most of the session. Before that I'd tried giving them a more fighty session, figuring he was overwhelmed with plot. He didn't show up for that one. I'll do another fight session in the near future, but I didn't want to oversaturate the other players with combat, so I'm holding off on that. What I have planned for next session is to have some NPCs from his background approach and engage him. This will be a situation where he doesn't have the option of sitting back and letting the other PCs do the talking, so I'm hoping it brings out some positive reaction. If it doesn't I'm out of ideas though.

* For values of reason that don't involve the GM bending over backwards or running a game they aren't interested in running. If I was running D&D and a PC wanted to be a robot from the future, I would not oblige them as time traveling robots do not exist in the genre I am interested in running.

Human Paragon 3
2010-04-28, 01:28 PM
I think you're on the right track. I am a huge proponent of pc specific subplot. This question is actually directly related to this week's topic, maybe you should repost it there?

I will consider a variation on this theme for next week, however since it is fundamental to DMing. And I'd be very interested in hearing how your next session goes.

valadil
2010-04-28, 01:39 PM
I think you're on the right track. I am a huge proponent of pc specific subplot. This question is actually directly related to this week's topic, maybe you should repost it there?


I didn't post it there for a specific reason. I feel like this week's topic deals with methods for hooking players. It expands a GM toolbox for engaging your PCs. What I'm looking for is more about knowing your players and choosing the right hook. Given what I know about a player, how can I select the right tool out of my toolbox?

Human Paragon 3
2010-04-28, 02:08 PM
So is your issue not knowing your player well enough, or not not knowing what to feed his particular set of parameters?

If the second, maybe describing your player more in depth would give us more to work with.

valadil
2010-04-28, 02:12 PM
I think it's the former. I haven't figured out what his set of parameters is. The sad thing is that this is someone I've known since middle school. I've just never GMed for him before so I don't know what makes him tick in a game. I'm starting to think he doesn't like gaming much at all, but shows up as an excuse to socialize. He seems to have fun before game starts, but gets surly once we get going. All of his outward enjoyment comes from correcting one of the other players during rules disputes.

Human Paragon 3
2010-04-28, 02:23 PM
That sounds frustrating. What non-table top RPG games does he enjoy? Does he play video games, board games? Or is he not gaming literate?

valadil
2010-04-28, 02:30 PM
That sounds frustrating. What non-table top RPG games does he enjoy? Does he play video games, board games? Or is he not gaming literate?

He's usually content to try any new board games. I know he's a fan of Dominion and A Game of Thrones. His video game taste usually centers around hyper competitive FPSes like Counter-Strike and Modern Warfare 2. I wonder if maybe he'd like a more competitive tabletop RPG? The rest of the party is pretty group friendly. Maybe a rival adventuring party stealing their missions and plot hooks would appeal to him?

Human Paragon 3
2010-04-28, 02:35 PM
That's definitely worth trying. I think most players like a bit of healthy competition now and again. For instance, I had a player who had an archery master, so I would be sure to have social encounters with other archers, archery contests, ways for him to show off his skill like in hunting parties with NPCs, and the odd grand master to learn from.

This can be applied to nearly any class. Having an old rival, or just somebody who wants to knock your player off his pedestal may be exciting for him.

valadil
2010-04-28, 02:36 PM
This can be applied to nearly any class. Having an old rival, or just somebody who wants to knock your player off his pedestal may be exciting for him.

Definitely. I usually introduce a rival adventuring party at some point in my campaigns. If the social encounter I have for him next session doesn't get his interest, I'll try to make the rivals come up sooner than later.

Human Paragon 3
2010-05-03, 09:05 AM
I've added cliffnotes for Part 1: Impossible Situations and PC Egos. Eventually I will have cliffnotes up for part 2, and will be writing a notes entry for each part, for those who want a quick guide. If you have something else you think should be added to the cliffnotes section, let me know and I'll incorporate it!

The cliffnotes are in essence a distillation of the knowledge shared in the thread, meant as a quick guide for people who have just stumbled onto the master thread.

Human Paragon 3
2010-05-04, 09:30 AM
Part three is up:

Murder Death Kill (Character Death in Your Campaign) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8428659#post8428659)

valadil
2010-05-05, 01:05 PM
And I'd be very interested in hearing how your next session goes.

It was an improvement, but not as much as I'd hoped. The player paid a lot more attention (I don't think his iPhone came out the entire game), but didn't participate as much as I'd hoped. He was confronted by some members of his backstory who reluctantly gave the group information they'd been looking for. He used one word answers when dealing with the NPCs. Once the other PCs at the table were introduced though, he let them do the talking.

I think that from now on I'm going to assume this player is interested in hearing story rather than being a part of it. That's okay. From now on I'll stop expecting him to talk and just be happy when he's actively listening (meaning no iPhone (I could ban iPhones at the table, but then I'd take away the player's means of telling me when my game is boring)). He's not the first player I've seen do this. I just hope my guess is right that what he wants is to be told a story. We'll see.

Human Paragon 3
2010-05-05, 01:28 PM
Right on. I think you finally understand your player and what he wants! If I were you, I would ask him what he thought of this session just to confirm what you probably already know. The fact that he was focused is great, and a good indication he was plugged in and having a good time. Not everybody is into the RPing aspect of the game, and this is fine, as long as he's enjoying himself.

Try the rival thing, too. I think your whole party would probably get into it not just your "problem" player.

valadil
2010-05-05, 01:38 PM
Try the rival thing, too. I think your whole party would probably get into it not just your "problem" player.

I'm building up to it. I've got the groundwork laid out but it'll be a few more sessions till I can actually bring them in. The guy who hired the PCs and formed the initial group has just resurfaced. This is after he died, was found to be unrezzable, and had taken out a huge debt which was somehow placed on the PCs. Once the shock of his return wears off, then it's time to show the players his new group of friends.

One of the things I realized while focusing on this one player was that I ran the risk of neglecting the rest of them. While it's commendable to try to help a bored player, I shouldn't do so at the expense of those who are having a good time.

WarKitty
2010-05-05, 02:07 PM
If I can request a topic: PvP conflict and handling competing players

Human Paragon 3
2010-05-05, 02:38 PM
Anyone feel like giving me a hand summarizing the Pt. 2 thread? My powers of distillation are failing me and I could use a deputy.

valadil
2010-05-05, 03:20 PM
Anyone feel like giving me a hand summarizing the Pt. 2 thread? My powers of distillation are failing me and I could use a deputy.

Sure, why not. Here are the topics I found interesting in part 2:
Give fun descriptions. Show the players why their characters are awesome.
Make the PC choices matter.
Keep the players in the driver's seat.
Use the backstory they give you. Give them plot they're already interested in. Use their NPCs so you don't have to write any.
Let the players fill in the details.
Know your audience. Cater to your audience.
Make them hate the BBEG for who he is, not just for being +2 CR higher than the other enemies.
Give them moral dilemmas.
Treat NPCs and enemies as something beyond XP in a jar.
Keep them alive long enough that the story can continue. Threaten them enough that they take combat seriously. Both values of 'enough' will vary from group to group.
Expand player horizons. Give them something new to think about. Break genre conventions if you have to.
Limit your rules lawyering. Rule of cool trumps rules as written.
Challenge the PCs personally. Make them feel that there's a reason why that particular PC is in the party. Their character should have meaning/story that another adventurer wouldn't have.


Expand on or omit these as you like.

Human Paragon 3
2010-05-06, 08:18 AM
Thanks, Valadi. Cliff Notes are up for pt. 2!

Human Paragon 3
2010-05-11, 09:11 AM
Week 4's discussion is now up, by special request:

DM Series pt 4: Player vs. Player Conflict (How to Refocus or Resolve it) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8471930#post8471930)


Anyone feeling generous or in the mood to contribute can take a look at the character death thread and offer up a summary, although "It depends" seems to be the across the board answer.

Human Paragon 3
2010-05-18, 10:16 AM
Week 5 is up!

The Invisible Hand of the DM (Nudging players in the right direction, if there even is one)
(http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8515781#post8515781)

Human Paragon 3
2010-05-19, 09:12 AM
It's a little early, but I want to start brainstorming for next week's thread. I was thinking how to run NPCs might be a fun topic.


EDIT: Also, cliff notes, if you can call them that, are up for Week 3.

valadil
2010-05-19, 10:26 AM
It's a little early, but I want to start brainstorming for next week's thread. I was thinking how to run NPCs might be a fun topic.


EDIT: Also, cliff notes, if you can call them that, are up for Week 3.

That's certainly an idea. Would this be about how to manage and organize NPCs or how to roleplay them? (I'm good at the former and trying to improve on the latter).

Human Paragon 3
2010-05-19, 10:30 AM
I was thinking how to create them and how to use them. What should their purpose be?

If you want an NPC to fulfill a function, how should you design him to do so?

Stuff like that.

Human Paragon 3
2010-06-01, 09:54 AM
Part six is up!


Part 6: Victims, Villains, Bigwigs and Thugs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8605488#post8605488)

Concerning NPCs.

sidhe3141
2010-06-19, 01:26 AM
Is a Week Seven planned?

Human Paragon 3
2010-06-19, 08:22 PM
Well, I noticed interest dropping off and I didn't have any pressing ideas I felt needed exploring. But since the public demands it, I think I may do a part 7 after all.

I was thinking today of how to handle missing players. Might make a good topic.

Human Paragon 3
2010-06-22, 10:27 AM
Part 7 is up.

Missing Persons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8758922#post8758922)