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~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-28, 01:39 PM
I am joining in a 1st level campaign. All books (including all 3rd party sources). Here's the party:

Human Fighter with 13+ weapons
Venerable Dwarf Fighter
Half-Aquatic Elf Cold Domain Wizard
Wild Elf Scout focused on Ranged attacks
Dragonborn Favored Soul of Bahamut
Half-Drow Ninja

I want to be the last component for this pretty balanced party

Cogidubnus
2010-04-28, 01:48 PM
More skillmonkey? Something comic, in a bard-like way? It depends on what you want to do. If you're happy with the party's mechanics, go for RPing value. In which case, what sort of character ideas do you like?

Telonius
2010-04-28, 01:52 PM
Venerable Dwarf Fighter


... how is this accomplished? -6 to strength and dex, net -4 to con, +3 to int and wis, net +1 to cha? How's he hitting anything? Unless he's pulling some serious cheese, I can't figure it. :smallconfused:

Otherwise, traditional fifth wheels can work pretty well. Bard, Artificer, Factotum. Maybe even a Warlock.

Caliphbubba
2010-04-28, 01:54 PM
A Dragon Shaman might be cool in a party like that. Aura and whatnot passively helping everyone out. Eventually getting your breath weapon + feats to turn it into some battlefield control.

Depending on what the Fighter is doing another martial character could be good a la Crusader tanking.

or ya know, another full caster is never bad.

If it were me I'd probably do a paladin/sorc cause lately I've had really wanted to try one of them out.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-28, 02:00 PM
... how is this accomplished? -6 to strength and dex, net -4 to con, +3 to int and wis, net +1 to cha? How's he hitting anything? Unless he's pulling some serious cheese, I can't figure it. :smallconfused:

Otherwise, traditional fifth wheels can work pretty well. Bard, Artificer, Factotum. Maybe even a Warlock.

1. Weapon Finesse (Cane Sword)

2. Never played an Artificer...

Doc Roc
2010-04-28, 02:12 PM
How about a Battle-Field Control wizard, or a Factotum?

Human Paragon 3
2010-04-28, 02:26 PM
Factotum is always fun. It seems like they might need a good social character, and factotum can definitely be this between spells and all skills as class skills.

Unless the Ninja is also the party face.

Doc Roc
2010-04-28, 02:30 PM
Unless the Ninja is also the party face.

In which case, you'll need a factotum all the more, probably... ;)

Amphetryon
2010-04-28, 02:35 PM
Dragon Shaman/Marshal/Bard multiclass. Be a reincarnation of Trixie, the party booster.

pffh
2010-04-28, 02:36 PM
Unless the Ninja is also the party face.

"We brought back your daughter, your majesty"
*Throws down a smoke bomb*

"Guys we need a new party face the ninja aint cutting it"

TheThan
2010-04-28, 02:43 PM
Bard, factoum and beguiler are the best 5th wheels I can think of. Any would fit and be pretty solid in that party.

Doc Roc
2010-04-28, 02:44 PM
Bard, factoum and beguiler are the best 5th wheels I can think of. Any would fit and be pretty solid in that party.

Additional casters aren't going to make the game any harder, either. But I'd reach for factotum here, or binder. Factotum first.

Telonius
2010-04-28, 02:47 PM
1. Weapon Finesse (Cane Sword)

2. Never played an Artificer...

That's still a pretty poor combination. Unless he has some way of adding dex to damage, he'd be better off being strength-centered. It'd save him a feat, if nothing else.

Artificers are from the Eberron Campaign Setting. They're basically a magical craftsman. If built right, they can be (more or less) a traveling magic item factory. They also get trapfinding.

Forever Curious
2010-04-28, 02:48 PM
Bard, factoum and beguiler are is the best 5th wheels I can think of.

Fixed that for you. :smallbiggrin:

But yeah, they're my class of choice. Back up skill monkey, controller, and party face all in one!

Tinydwarfman
2010-04-28, 02:51 PM
1. Weapon Finesse (Cane Sword)


...:smallconfused: That still doesn't answer the question of how he hits anything. So he pumps all his points into DEX, for a net bonus of +1 at first level? This is not a good idea. Tell him to pick up Intuitive attack and base his to-hit on WIS, hopefully eventually going into Shiba Protector for +WIS to hit and damage.

Greenish
2010-04-28, 02:51 PM
Half-Aquatic Elf Cold Domain WizardWait, is that aquatic half-elf or half aquatic-half normal elf?

SamTheSane
2010-04-28, 03:02 PM
Beguiler's are always a good choice.

My personal favorite would have to be the Dragonfire Adept. Some very useful abilities (free identify at level one if you want) and it is flexible enough to be the face if you want to. Plus you can use it to pull off my favorite trick - walk around in pull plate and wield two swords, then go to town with the breath weapons.

Flickerdart
2010-04-28, 03:07 PM
Go Psychic Warrior, Crusader, Knight or Totemist. This party is going to need a lot of help with melee. Knight especially can do a great job of keeping enemies away from your squishy Scout and Wizard.

Vizzerdrix
2010-04-28, 03:13 PM
All 3rd party.....

*drools

I'll be getting back to you later tonight with what tasty bits I find in my 3rd party archive.

Draz74
2010-04-28, 03:16 PM
My personal favorite would have to be the Dragonfire Adept. Some very useful abilities (free identify at level one if you want) and it is flexible enough to be the face if you want to.

This is what I was going to say.

Though I also agree that more melee power would be nice. Knight or Psychic Warrior or Barbarian ... (none of them very optimized).

WildPyre
2010-04-28, 03:19 PM
Could also go with a Pally... a little back up healing, a little party face and some meat shield... not bad for a 5th wheel when you have a front line with questionable viability.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-28, 03:49 PM
If you can convince the wizard to try his hand at summoning, Dragonfire Inspiration/Snowflake Wardance bard/crusader, using White Raven and healing maneuvers.

The caster will love you for boosting his summons, the martials will love you for boosting them, and the healer will love you for easing his healing burden.

It's a no-lose situation.

Plus you can kick ass on your own, as well.

Zaq
2010-04-28, 08:53 PM
In addition to what has already been said, Incarnates make good 5th wheels. They can adapt to do pretty much whatever needs doing, so you can mold your abilities to fill the party's weaknesses. It's a lot like Factotum in the whole "well, if no one else can do it, I can probably find a way to" thing.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-28, 09:00 PM
Archivist? They have that Dark knowledge ability buffing party when fighting enemies.
They also know lots of Divine spells (scribe the Favored souls as extras).

The Glyphstone
2010-04-28, 09:08 PM
Does it have to be published 3rd party? I've seen this really neat class bounced around called the Lightning Warrior. It sacrifices power for flavor, so it'd fit in well with your group.

gdiddy
2010-04-28, 09:08 PM
Um, guys, if he uses almost any suggestion here in a party that is not optimized at all, he's going to blow everyone out of the water.

Thou shalt not mix the tiers.

This is a place for a marshal, a warlock, or a bard. Not a Crusader, a conjuration wizard, or a factotum.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-28, 09:09 PM
Um, guys, if he uses almost any suggestion here in a party that is not optimized at all, he's going to blow everyone out of the water.

Thou shalt not mix the tiers.

This is a place for a marshal, a warlock, or a bard. Not a Crusader, a conjuration wizard, or a factotum.My bardsader would work quite well, since it boosts everyone else quite nicely.

How about a society mind? Or a thoughtsinger? Or a wizard/war weaver?

Starbuck_II
2010-04-28, 09:13 PM
Um, guys, if he uses almost any suggestion here in a party that is not optimized at all, he's going to blow everyone out of the water.

Thou shalt not mix the tiers.

This is a place for a marshal, a warlock, or a bard. Not a Crusader, a conjuration wizard, or a factotum.
SRD says: The domain wizard has all the standard wizard class features, except as noted below.

Domain wizards aren't a low tier. Remember domain wizards lose nothing. The domains are extra spells added for free to spellbook.
Unless you think Wizards are tier 3. :smallbiggrin:

gdiddy
2010-04-28, 09:17 PM
Playing an uber buffer in the party, while not a gloryhound and probably popular with his party, might lead to a DM/Player Arms Race.

He should know that his character may not fit in. He's playing at level 1 with a Venerable Dwarf with a sword cane. 1d6-1 per turn.

Edit:


SRD says: The domain wizard has all the standard wizard class features, except as noted below.

Domain wizards aren't a low tier. Remember domain wizards lose nothing. The domains are extra spells added for free to spellbook.
Unless you think Wizards are tier 3. :smallbiggrin:

Not saying that. But I doubt the person playing a half-aquatic elf is worried about min/max that much.

Just saying it has a time and a place. Not in a game with ninjas and venerable dwarf fighters.

Gametime
2010-04-28, 09:21 PM
SRD says: The domain wizard has all the standard wizard class features, except as noted below.

Domain wizards aren't a low tier. Remember domain wizards lose nothing. The domains are extra spells added for free to spellbook.
Unless you think Wizards are tier 3. :smallbiggrin:

No, but wizards are fairly easy to tone down, either intentionally or not. Cold domain could either indicate a preference for blasting or for battlefield control, or something else entirely. Point is, the wizard might overshadow the entire party, and is entirely capable of it, but could just as easily not do so. Some of the above suggestions are fairly fool-proof ways to wreck face.

Of course, when you wreck face by buffing the entire party as a Dragonfire Bard, people might not feel too left out by it.

I'm going to throw in another vote for Beguiler, here. They can't do everything, but they can always do something.

Doc Roc
2010-04-28, 09:22 PM
Lycan, that is unfair. You know I will always pull for war-weaver.

gdiddy
2010-04-28, 09:40 PM
In conclusion, LuckyBoneDice, play a bard. It will help your friends hit stuff.

This forum often produces some really powerful versatile characters, but they may not fit into your game. Judging by your party, it seems like everyone picked some really cool ideas. However, a lot of people can't even understand why someone would play a grizzled old dwarf fighter. He cannot kill every single god at level one. He cannot end any encounter in six seconds. He is unoptimized and probably wouldn't be allowed in a lot of their games.

I think he's awesome, though. :smallbiggrin:

Honestly, any of these class ideas work, but always remember the advice here is usually focused on building the most elite set of numbers, not on what fits in or resonates with you.

Cogidubnus
2010-04-29, 11:12 AM
I LOVE unoptimised characters, so long as there's a clear idea behind them. This is partly due to my reliance on the SRD (living in Britain makes sourcebooks hard to come by) but still. I just think they make for more fun (and explicable) ideas.

Doc Roc
2010-04-29, 11:52 AM
In conclusion, LuckyBoneDice, play a bard. It will help your friends hit stuff.

This forum often produces some really powerful versatile characters, but they may not fit into your game. Judging by your party, it seems like everyone picked some really cool ideas. However, a lot of people can't even understand why someone would play a grizzled old dwarf fighter. He cannot kill every single god at level one. He cannot end any encounter in six seconds. He is unoptimized and probably wouldn't be allowed in a lot of their games.

I think he's awesome, though. :smallbiggrin:

Honestly, any of these class ideas work, but always remember the advice here is usually focused on building the most elite set of numbers, not on what fits in or resonates with you.

I love being painted in a negative light by strangers!

Greenish
2010-04-29, 12:00 PM
I think he's awesome, though. :smallbiggrin:He's been a fighter for over two centuries and still finds a kobold with a sharp stick a challenge.

That'll take a bit to justify.

Escheton
2010-04-29, 12:01 PM
I'm seeing the current party not knowing what they face and just brute forcing everything seeing the prolly cant make the knowledge checks.
Provided they don't meta and the dm doesnt give the info freely I suggest a archivist.
Great partybuffer/backuphealer that actually knows ****.

n00b killa
2010-04-29, 12:07 PM
Go for the venerable dwarf fighter thing.

Zen archery plus the wis bonus for venerable should net you a nice attack bonnus, you can use crossbows. And, all in all, its a flavourfull concept.

I have a homebrew PrC for dwarves who specialize on dwarven waraxe or crossbows. The crossbow part might be overpowered because I didnt have time to test it.

PM me or something if you want it.

Fisticuffs
2010-04-29, 12:07 PM
I second Dragon Shaman, I always liked the copper dragon totem.

the humanity
2010-04-29, 12:13 PM
changeling Rogue/Beguiler/Magical Trickster.

Ormagoden
2010-04-29, 12:21 PM
I love being painted in a negative light by strangers!

Gdiddy's comments aren't negative in the least. He is simply point out that a large amount of advice the OP is receiving might not mesh well with his campaign. IE Optimization.

Gdiddy is 100% right.

When I look at the party the OP posted I get a good feeling for the campaign they are going to be playing in. It's rather simple to see its not over optimized and we should be giving advice in accordance with that.

It seems like the OP is a real big team player, wanting to have a more complete party speaks volumes for his playing style. Wanting to be the person who fills an empty role is also really awesome.

Two almost immediate things jumped out at me as I read the beggining post of the thread.

The already mentioned dragon shaman and the ever wonderful duskblade.

The dragon auras are good standard buffs that slowly get better as you raise levels. In a first level encounter the Vigor aura (fast healing 1) can literally mean the difference between life and death. Beyond that dragon shaman is a solid class, much like a paladin at later levels they can provide some quick emergency healing or a good amount of damage via a breath attack. With a D10 hit dice they can stand next to that dwarven figther and dish it out as they come.

Duskblade is also a solid class, eventually being able to full attack with a greatsword that has shocking grasp or vampiric touch on it for each attack is NASTY. But early on they provide a little bit of blasting, a little bit of damage or spell support and they can take any knowledge skill.

Comparing the two they are both unique and fun, and provide the support you might be looking for to help out your friends.

gdiddy
2010-04-29, 12:24 PM
He's been a fighter for over to centuries and still finds a kobold with a sharp stick a challenge.
That'll take a bit to justify.

Well, yeah. It's still awesome.


I love being painted in a negative light by strangers!

I wasn't singling anyone out, and I'm sorry if you took offense.

Doc Roc
2010-04-29, 12:26 PM
It's okay, I just brim with barely contained bitterness.:smallredface:

The thing is, a lot of that info got edited in after the fact. So we didn't have as much to go on, and as a result defaulted to some of our favorite things which are reliably tier 3.

I am uncomfortable with the insistence that I, or in fact any optimizer, is unhappy when gods aren't dying at level 1. Most of the offerings here are not particularly powerful, and confusion regarding sword canes is, I think, understandable. Remember, this is a team game, and that the whole group can suffer outside the game when one character isn't performing. This is particularly true in small groups, and it can mean a lot more work for the GM.

Another thing I'd like to lay some emphasis on is the popular conception of character class being irrevocably conjoined to character concept. Mechanics are mechanics, and fluff is fluff. God willing, they work together. That's almost never the case, though.

Ormagoden
2010-04-29, 12:27 PM
He's been a fighter for over two centuries and still finds a kobold with a sharp stick a challenge.

That'll take a bit to justify.

Old war wound...

Greenish
2010-04-29, 12:35 PM
Old war wound...He's been in a war without learning how to trip someone without being hit (or even how to hit twice in six seconds)?

Anyhow, there has hardly been anything hugely optimized in here, so the comments about "can't understand characters that can't kill gods at level 1" seem more like flamebaiting than anything constructive.

Fisticuffs
2010-04-29, 12:42 PM
Another character that might be interesting is a Half-Elf Marshal(MH) with Sociable Personality(RoD), you'd give an aura in battle and have the potential of a stupid good face-man. At 6th you could take Master Manipulator(PHBII).

Edit: plus Half-Elf has favored class any so you could ditch Marshal after 2nd.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-29, 12:43 PM
To explain, the Dwarf is a crusty old fart who ran an antique shop, and in his old age plans to "give the villains a good whippin'"

Think Clint Eastwood from Gran Torino and make him a dwarf with a cane.

The Half-elf (aquatic elf) wizard is taking Frost Mage and Spellsword so he can shoot his longbow with Transmute Flesh to Ice on it.

Our scout/favored soul is the Party Face. The ninja is our skillmunky. Our Human Fighter and our Dwarf Fighter are our melee.

gdiddy
2010-04-29, 12:44 PM
Really wasn't flamebaiting, though it was hyperbole. Just pointing out there is a range of power at Level 1. And I wasn't trying to trash optimization, just saying there is a level of anti-optimization in that party that most people here would probably feel uncomfortable playing in.

People who play venerable fighters who can't power attack don't hurt team mates, any more than batman wizard does. But they don't belong in the same game. Because they would hurt each other.

It's hard to shine as a venerable dwarf sword-canist of a half-elf evoker if you're are easily replaced by a single class feature of your team mate that asked the internet for help.

Nothing here was cheesey or optimized, but if LuckyBoneDice follows the wrong advice, he could become "that guy."

Greenish
2010-04-29, 12:51 PM
To explain, the Dwarf is a crusty old fart who ran an antique shop, and in his old age plans to "give the villains a good whippin'"

Think Clint Eastwood from Gran Torino and make him a dwarf with a cane.

The Half-elf (aquatic elf) wizard is taking Frost Mage and Spellsword so he can shoot his longbow with Transmute Flesh to Ice on it.

Our scout/favored soul is the Party Face. The ninja is our skillmunky. Our Human Fighter and our Dwarf Fighter are our melee.So the role you're missing seems to be battlefield control. Hmm, most of the best classes for that tend to be rather strong otherwise too, but the (many times suggested) beguiler might be just the thing, though a bard might do well enough with right spells.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-29, 12:52 PM
So the role you're missing seems to be battlefield control. Hmm, most of the best classes for that tend to be rather strong otherwise too, but the (many times suggested) beguiler might be just the thing, though a bard might do well enough with right spells.

Beguiler and Bard the DM has banned, due to being "Overpowered"

gdiddy
2010-04-29, 12:56 PM
Beguiler and Bard the DM has banned, due to being "Overpowered"

Yeah, dragon shaman or marshall, maybe?

WildPyre
2010-04-29, 12:59 PM
Beguiler and Bard the DM has banned, due to being "Overpowered"

I find it funny that the words "Bard" and "Overpowered" were used in the same sentence.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-29, 12:59 PM
Yeah, dragon shaman or marshall, maybe?

Had considered a mage-slayer (spellthief/sorcerer/unseen seer/arcane trickster), but auras are kinda flimsy

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-29, 01:00 PM
I find it funny that the words "Bard" and "Overpowered" were used in the same sentence.

DM says that since bard can essentially talk someone into killing themselves, they are too powerful.

Caphi
2010-04-29, 01:06 PM
DM says that since bard can essentially talk someone into killing themselves, they are too powerful.

He does realize that suggestion is also an spell, right?

Doc Roc
2010-04-29, 01:07 PM
If you are running with diplomacy at full power, sure, I guess? But almost anyone can do that.

I'm going to re-iterate my suggestion that you run either factotum, or some sort of light battlefield control.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-29, 01:07 PM
He does realize that suggestion is also an spell, right?

that's what he said.

Greenish
2010-04-29, 01:09 PM
Beguiler and Bard the DM has banned, due to being "Overpowered"Haha, sounds like he's run to one diplomancer too many.

Now, this might be denounced as "too powerful", but Spirit Shaman has nice buff/control/summon spells and rather situational class features (and MAD), so I think that if you don't go out of your way to break it, it might be a great addition to your party. Bonus points for being able to change your spells known each day as a spontaneous caster (so you can try stuff out).

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-29, 01:13 PM
Haha, sounds like he's run to one diplomancer too many.

Now, this might be denounced as "too powerful", but Spirit Shaman has nice buff/control/summon spells and rather situational class features (and MAD), so I think that if you don't go out of your way to break it, it might be a great addition to your party. Bonus points for being able to change your spells known each day as a spontaneous caster (so you can try stuff out).

and only core, races of, and OA races, so no outsiders :(

I dunno about Spirit Shaman. Seems too single-purpose.

Considering a Changeling for my "Mage-Slayer" build

WildPyre
2010-04-29, 01:14 PM
Dude, Suggestion doesn't even work like that, you can't suggest people do something obviously harmful. Sure you could like poison some wine and then suggest they drink the wine but...

No offense to your DM but if he bands Bards because they can "talk people into killing themselves" he'd hate my many "charisma is not a dump stat" characters.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-29, 01:17 PM
Dude, Suggestion doesn't even work like that, you can't suggest people do something obviously harmful. Sure you could like poison some wine and then suggest they drink the wine but...

No offense to your DM but if he bands Bards because they can "talk people into killing themselves" he'd hate my many "charisma is not a dump stat" characters.

He killed a Great Wyrm White dragon by suggesting it dive into the lava to warm up

Greenish
2010-04-29, 01:19 PM
I dunno about Spirit Shaman. Seems too single-purpose.Most of the class features are rather narrow in their application, but not all of them, and the spells will give great flexibility.

If you can narrow down what you wish to play apart from something that helps the party, I could try to come up with better suggestions.

[Edit]: Diving into lava is "obviously harmful". Great Wyrm White Dragons have 18 int and 19 wis. Your GM should read what the spells actually do before banning several classes.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-29, 01:21 PM
If you can narrow down what you wish to play apart from something that helps the party, I could try to come up with better suggestions.

kinda like an Anti-mage or Pseudo-Healer or both (if applicable), considering my party dies every time to a mage

WildPyre
2010-04-29, 01:24 PM
He killed a Great Wyrm White dragon by suggesting it dive into the lava to warm up

Yeah... doesn't work that way. The spell specificly states you can't suggest an obviously harmful act. I don't have my MM on me but I'm fairly sure a great white wyrm has a high enough int to know that lava = bad.

Cogidubnus
2010-04-29, 01:26 PM
Bards...overpowered...can't stop laughing :smallbiggrin: Seriously, I do find it hilarious. Not much you can do about it though. But it might be worth seeing if his only qualm is with suggestion, and pointing out it explicitly says the subject won't harm themselves (I'd rule they therefore wouldn't refuse to defend themselves either) not so much to get a bard, but just to avoid him winding other people up about it in the future.

Greenish
2010-04-29, 01:32 PM
kinda like an Anti-mage or Pseudo-Healer or both (if applicable), considering my party dies every time to a mageWell, the best way to fight magic is magic. I stand by Spirit Shaman on this, since sorc/wiz and cleric spell lists are already represented in your party.

Of course, factotum can do those too to some extent. Duskblade can counter magic too pretty nicely, but might end up upstaging your other melee (and no healing). Warlocks can get healing some way, I seem to recall.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-29, 01:34 PM
Well, the best way to fight magic is magic. I stand by Spirit Shaman on this, since sorc/wiz and cleric spell lists are already represented in your party.

Of course, factotum can do those too to some extent. Duskblade can counter magic too pretty nicely, but might end up upstaging your other melee (and no healing). Warlocks can get healing some way, I seem to recall.

spellthief? can't that be a mage slayer?

krossbow
2010-04-29, 01:40 PM
Thought about just rolling a cleric? Guarentee you can never have enough of them in a party.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-29, 01:42 PM
Thought about just rolling a cleric? Guarentee you can never have enough of them in a party.

let me word this carefully:
I HATE CLERICS!!!

Forever Curious
2010-04-29, 01:48 PM
Yeah... doesn't work that way. The spell specificly states you can't suggest an obviously harmful act. I don't have my MM on me but I'm fairly sure a great white wyrm has a high enough int to know that lava = bad.

If I may quote the PHB:

However, a suggestion that a pool of acid is actually pure water and that a quick dip would be refreshing is another matter.

So, technically it could work, and work very well. But I digress.

In that case, I agree that Dragonfire Adept would work well. They can function as decent mage killers (through use of the Voracious Dispelling invocation).

Draz74
2010-04-29, 01:52 PM
Re: Bards overpowered: although it sounds funny, it's actually true if the DM (for some strange reason) plays with Diplomacy RAW. Bards are the most powerful class in the game at low levels, except for maybe Marshal and Factotum.

If that sounds strange, it's only because we're used to assuming the DM will nerf Diplomacy. The Tier System, for example, has a more reasonable Diplomacy skill as an underlying assumption all through it, without even stating that assumption anywhere.

Interesting how much we take certain things for granted.

Greenish
2010-04-29, 01:54 PM
spellthief? can't that be a mage slayer?I'm not too familiar with them, but it's not a bad idea.

Off-topic, I don't think Suggestion can actually make a great wyrm to think lava as cool water. Besides, you can only suggest "a course of action", so if you want to make the target think that X is actually Y, you'll have to Bluff.

Cogidubnus
2010-04-29, 01:56 PM
I can't imagine any of my players actually considering they could persuade someone suicide was a good idea (unless they were already heading that way), but they're hardly optimisers or rules fiends.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-29, 01:57 PM
I'm not too familiar with them, but it's not a bad idea.

Off-topic, I don't think Suggestion can actually make a great wyrm to think lava as cool water. Besides, you can only suggest "a course of action", so if you want to make the target think that X is actually Y, you'll have to Bluff.

1. Spellthief can steal spells with their sneak attack, and can cast 4th level arcane spells from Abjuration, Illusion, and Enchantment. With Master Spellthief, my caster classes stack with my spellthief levels, treating me as a spellthief x. or Psitheif is the same, minus psionic.

2. His bluff was higher than I could tell y'all

Starbuck_II
2010-04-29, 02:03 PM
I'm not too familiar with them, but it's not a bad idea.

Off-topic, I don't think Suggestion can actually make a great wyrm to think lava as cool water. Besides, you can only suggest "a course of action", so if you want to make the target think that X is actually Y, you'll have to Bluff.

PHB says you can suggest a pool of acid is cool water... so lava doesn't seem that far off.
Neither is very comfortable.

2xMachina
2010-04-29, 02:08 PM
However, a pool of acid might look like water. (IRL, you can't tell acid from water by sight)

Lava does not look in anyway safe.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-29, 02:11 PM
What about a pool of lava is a pool of kool-aid? Oh yeah!

Lycar
2010-04-29, 02:16 PM
He's been a fighter for over two centuries and still finds a kobold with a sharp stick a challenge.

That'll take a bit to justify.

Oh, that is simple.

Until just now, he has not been a PC.

Like all the other lv. 0 noobs NPC losers out there who will never get their HP in the double digits or get more then 4 skill ranks in anything. :smallamused:

But the game assumes that 'Heroes are Special' and everybody else... isn't.

So what it comes down to is: How do you justify that almost everybody else is not a lv. X character class? :smallcool:

Lycar

Chen
2010-04-29, 02:16 PM
However, a pool of acid might look like water. (IRL, you can't tell acid from water by sight)

Lava does not look in anyway safe.

I always pictured D&D acid as being green, viscous and possibly bubbling. Possibly from the description of some of the spells that involve acid.

mabriss lethe
2010-04-29, 02:53 PM
Spellthief isn't a terrible choice for the mage slayer feat chain. Your caster level is inconsequential in regard to stolen spells. you'll cast them using the exact same stats as whomever you yanked them from.

Hexblade is also a fun choice as a mage killer, (especially while using the Dark Companion ACF from PHB2) and they can get into Suel Arcanamach with relative ease. It requires an investment in cross class skills, but it's certainly possible to do it by the time you'd hit the minimum BAB to enter. If you don't want to take CC skills, you can negate the cost by picking up Martial study twice (once for desert wind, once for tiger claw.) and really? a maneuver or two would be a rather nice fallback ability at early levels.

I think it would be rather fun to go as a Psychic Warrior with the Illithid heritage feat chain. By around 5th or 6th level you could be eating people's brains. What's not to love about that?

Ormagoden
2010-04-29, 02:56 PM
1. Spellthief can steal spells with their sneak attack, and can cast 4th level arcane spells from Abjuration, Illusion, and Enchantment. With Master Spellthief, my caster classes stack with my spellthief levels, treating me as a spellthief x. or Psitheif is the same, minus psionic.

2. His bluff was higher than I could tell y'all

I guess you just have to ask yourself how many spell casters are you actually going to encounter...

Doc Roc
2010-04-29, 03:45 PM
Oh, that is simple.

Until just now, he has not been a PC.

Like all the other lv. 0 noobs NPC losers out there who will never get their HP in the double digits or get more then 4 skill ranks in anything. :smallamused:

But the game assumes that 'Heroes are Special' and everybody else... isn't.

So what it comes down to is: How do you justify that almost everybody else is not a lv. X character class? :smallcool:

Lycar

I _don't_. In my games, everyone is a classed character.

Spellthief does not do enough against a mage, in my experience, as a player, a gm, and an arena ref. It looks okay on paper, but it's just not gone well in practice.

gdiddy
2010-04-29, 04:15 PM
Wait, you can't play bards, because they're broke, but he has killed the entire party with mages on more than one occasion?

I have revised my opinion. Abrupt Jaunt Conjurer, eventually going into Malconvoker.

Doc Roc
2010-04-29, 04:20 PM
Wait, you can't play bards, because they're broke, but he has killed the entire party with mages on more than one occasion?

I have revised my opinion. Abrupt Jaunt Conjurer, eventually going into Malconvoker.

I knew you'd come around. Welcome, my friend. Welcome to the dark side. Tastes like chocolate.

gdiddy
2010-04-29, 04:27 PM
:smalleek: Why couldn't he just let the player be a bard? *tear*

His primary class feature involves singing.

He never hurt anyone.

Why'd they have to get the Bard, Doc? Why?

Doc Roc
2010-04-29, 04:31 PM
:smalleek: Why couldn't he just let the player be a bard? *tear*

His primary class feature involves singing.

He never hurt anyone.

Why'd they have to get the Bard, Doc? Why?

It's nothing personal, just gaming, they'll say.
Tell them, Still ANGRY. (http://books.google.com/books?id=xXp3MCvqeNIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=altered+carbon&source=bl&ots=043bEUzj9p&sig=kyZR6bjy7xX4_8pRzsC47_BOD1g&hl=en&ei=_P3ZS9PBIcOC8ga2qchQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result#v=onepage&q&f=false)

Mastikator
2010-04-29, 04:35 PM
However, a pool of acid might look like water. (IRL, you can't tell acid from water by sight)

Lava does not look in anyway safe.

No such thing as a pool of acid, at least not one that looks natural. Since acid corrodes things, it would corrode the ground it's on, unless the ground is made of gold or glass or some other material that isn't affected by erosion. So while it's true that some types of acid may be clear like water, a pool of acid would most certainly not look like a pool of water.


My answer to the OP: Who care's what's "balanced" or "works well with the group". Play something that you want to play. Is this WoW or is it roleplay?

lyko555
2010-04-29, 05:05 PM
^.^win


Also have you thought about playing a binder they are a fun mix of fluff and versatility?


:do you mind if i sig that ? thats to Doc Roc who did an amazing trick of moving above me to below me on the post lists

Doc Roc
2010-04-29, 05:08 PM
A wizard did it, while landscaping.

Superglucose
2010-04-29, 05:16 PM
I'm in a similar boat. I wanted to play a Beguiler, but the GM was like, "Nope. Op." Ok, factotum? "Nope. They're totally broken."

Excuse me? I'm playing a core conjurer, and you're worried about a factotum in a party of Druid, Wizard, Cleric?!?!?

Starbuck_II
2010-04-29, 06:24 PM
No such thing as a pool of acid, at least not one that looks natural. Since acid corrodes things, it would corrode the ground it's on, unless the ground is made of gold or glass or some other material that isn't affected by erosion. So while it's true that some types of acid may be clear like water, a pool of acid would most certainly not look like a pool of water.


My answer to the OP: Who care's what's "balanced" or "works well with the group". Play something that you want to play. Is this WoW or is it roleplay?

D&D says otherwise, read 1st pragraph of pg 285 of PHB. It says, "However, suggestion that pool of acif is actually water and a quick dip would be refreshing is another matter."

So D&D assumes pools of acid exist. So suggestion is pretty broad in what is allowed to suggest. Reasonable doesn't mean the dictionary meaning.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-30, 12:48 PM
he also says that a Spellthief 1/Sorc 4/Unseen Seer 5/Arcane Trickster 10 is overpowered, so my spellthief is nixed.

So, Binder is kinda wimpy limpy. And beguiler is banned due to me. I ran a Hellbred (Soul) Beguiler 14/Mindbender 1/Shadowcrafter 5 who made an illusion of a Great Wyrm Half-Prysmatic Half-Platinum Dragon, who caused the BBEG to die of a heart attack. No seriously.

Eldariel
2010-04-30, 12:57 PM
he also says that a Spellthief 1/Sorc 4/Unseen Seer 5/Arcane Trickster 10 is overpowered, so my spellthief is nixed.

The same thing works just great with Rogue so the lack of Spellthief is hardly any problem.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-30, 01:02 PM
The same thing works just great with Rogue so the lack of Spellthief is hardly any problem.

Well, minus I lose literally 4 feats... (Master Spellthief primarilly so I can never run out of spells)

Greenish
2010-04-30, 01:10 PM
No such thing as a pool of acid, at least not one that looks natural. Since acid corrodes things, it would corrode the ground it's on, unless the ground is made of gold or glass or some other material that isn't affected by erosion. So while it's true that some types of acid may be clear like water, a pool of acid would most certainly not look like a pool of water.Depends on wether the setting has green, bubbly movie acid or actually, proton-donating acid.

Also, "erosion" is an unrelated concept.

Eldariel
2010-04-30, 01:11 PM
Well, minus I lose literally 4 feats... (Master Spellthief primarilly so I can never run out of spells)

It's quite questionable whether you can store more spell levels as Master Spellthief than your ST level and if you can't, it won't be very useful for that use. Even with it, as long as you specialize, you should be fine spellslot-wise and you'll save a feat on Master Spellthief (you can Practiced Spellcaster it and go Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 5 for the same SA, greater BAB, more Advanced Learning and skills).

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-30, 01:27 PM
It's quite questionable whether you can store more spell levels as Master Spellthief than your ST level and if you can't, it won't be very useful for that use. Even with it, as long as you specialize, you should be fine spellslot-wise and you'll save a feat on Master Spellthief (you can Practiced Spellcaster it and go Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 5 for the same SA, greater BAB, more Advanced Learning and skills).

Well, he said no due to the Unseen Seer, not spellthief. Claimed I was "too optimized"

the humanity
2010-04-30, 01:29 PM
your DM is a butt.

why not just straight spellthief then, or spellthief/sorcerer?

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-30, 01:32 PM
your DM is a butt.

why not just straight spellthief then, or spellthief/sorcerer?

dude, I nearly peed myself reading your post...

and he said that if I want to do that, its by "his rules," which means no epic Sorc spells

Glimbur
2010-04-30, 01:36 PM
dude, I nearly peed myself reading your post...

and he said that if I want to do that, its by "his rules," which means no epic Sorc spells

Epic as in you only get them after level 21, or epic as in he's going to arbitrarily limit your spell selection because of what he thinks is too good? Because if you're starting at level 1 level 21 is a long way off, and can probably be safely ignored.

If you want more applicable advice, we need to know all the restrictions you're working under.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-30, 01:38 PM
Epic as in you only get them after level 21, or epic as in he's going to arbitrarily limit your spell selection because of what he thinks is too good? Because if you're starting at level 1 level 21 is a long way off, and can probably be safely ignored.

If you want more applicable advice, we need to know all the restrictions you're working under.

He wants no "broken classes," no "super optimizations," and a "balanced party"

considering how there is 6 PCs, one covering every aspect, I'm short on options

the humanity
2010-04-30, 01:44 PM
maybe go for a tracker build? ranger?

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-30, 01:45 PM
maybe go for a tracker build? ranger?

We have a ranger and a scout.

the humanity
2010-04-30, 01:46 PM
We have a ranger and a scout.

oh duh.

hmm.

Fighter 2/Sorcerer 6/Eldritch Knight 7/ Mindspy 5?

WildPyre
2010-04-30, 01:47 PM
I still suggest Paladin... or perhaps Crusader, though your DM is kind of a knob for thinking bards are OP. :P

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-30, 01:48 PM
oh duh.

hmm.

Fighter 2/Sorcerer 6/Eldritch Knight 7/ Mindspy 5?

what the hell does that do?

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-30, 01:49 PM
I still suggest Paladin... or perhaps Crusader, though your DM is kind of a knob for thinking bards are OP. :P

No ToB. DM says they are overpowerd. He's a bit of a tool actually.

And Paladin is an NPC class...

WildPyre
2010-04-30, 01:51 PM
Well then I'd just start messing with him... play an Aristocrat/Expert. THOSE are NPC classes. :smallbiggrin:

the humanity
2010-04-30, 01:58 PM
what the hell does that do?

focus on getting out detect thoughts for the bonus to your BAB from mindspy with some type of magic item or maybe quickening it somehow. combine with knowledge devotion and add power attack. bam. damage machine. the flavor is the best part. you know everything about your opponent before you hit them. add on a few buff/debuff attacker spells, you can really hit a guy.

wizard would get you there with better BAB, but less stat synergy.

Lord Varx, Master of the Drakemind
Male Kobold Fighter 2 Sorcerer 6 Eldritch Knight 7 Mindspy 5

Hit Dice: 5d8+2d10+6d4+7d6+80 (143)
Initiative: +3
Armour Class:35(10+3 Dex+9 armor+6 Spell+5 ring of P+1 nat armor)
Touch: 21
Flat Footed:32
Speed: 40’

Base Attack Bonus: +17/+12/+7/+2
Grapple:
Attack: Greatsword 28 (2d6+14, 19-20x2) or Claw 23 (1d4+6, 20x2)
Full Attack: Greatsword 28/23/18/13 (2d6+11, 19-20x2) or Claw 23/18/13/8 (1d4+3, 20x2)
Space: 5ft/5ft
Saves: Fortitude 19 (11+3 Con+5), Reflex 15 (5+3 Dex+5+2 Familiar), Will 18 (11+2 Wis+5)
64
Skills: Knowledge (Planes) +11, Knowledge (Local) +11, Knowledge (Arcana) +12, Knowledge (Nature) +11, Sense Motive +5, Concentration +19, Spellcraft +5,

Feats:
Knowledge Devotion
Improved Toughness
Power Attack
Cleave
Versatile Spellcaster
Vatic Gaze
Draconic Heritage (White)
Quicken Spell
Draconic Claw
Draconic Legacy (White)

Class Features:
Familiar: Wilhelm the Weasel, Str 3, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 15, Wis 12, Cha 5, AC 22, +4 to hit. Alertness, Improved Evasion, Share Spells, Empathetic Link, Spell Resistance 25, Speak with master and/or weasels. HP:143

Mindspy: Anticipate (+5 to hit and AC while detecting thoughts), Combat Telepathy (Concentration 10+last rounds damage to keep detecting thoughts as a free action), Spherical Detect Thoughts (detect Thoughts is self centered sphere, same length as cone), Multiple Surface Thoughts (4 people), Instant Mindscan (Detect Thoughts takes 1 round not 3)

Knowledge Devotion: make knowledge checks for to hit/damage bonus on related creatures (PH 78) 2+1, 16+2, 26+3, 31+4, 36+5

Power Attack: adjust BAB to deal damage instead of accuracy (1 for 1)

Cleave: attack person beside foe after downing one foe

Draconic Claw: attack with claw as swift action after casting a spell


Spells: At Will: Detect Magic, Detect Thoughts (swift)
6/8/8/8/8/6/4
0 Level
Detect Magic, Prestigitation, Read Magic, Arcane Mark, Resistance, Ray of Frost, Touch of Fatigue, Mage Hand, Acid Splash
1st level
True Strike, Magic Weapon, Swift Expeditious Retreat, Identify, Protection from Chaos/Good, Obscuring Mist
2nd level
Wraithstrike, Detect Thoughts, Mirror Image, Bull’s Strength, See Invisibility
3rd level
Arcane Sight, Displacement, Vampiric Touch, Haste, Sleet Storm
4th level
Orb of Cold, Stoneskin, Bestow Curse, Wall of Ice, Unluck
5th level
Teleport, Prying Eyes, Overland Flight
6th level
Greater Heroism

Ability Scores:
STR: 22 (+2 level, +6 Belt), DEX: 16, CON: 16 (+1 level), INT: 13, WIS: 14, CHA: 26 (+2 level, +6 Cloak)

+5 Mithril Chain Shirt of Twilight
+5 Greatsword of the Last Wyrm (swift Detect Thoughts at Will, no attack bonuses against dragons, cold iron)
Strongarm Bracers
Vest of Resistance +5
Heartseeking Amulet
Wand of Cure Serious Wounds (43 charges)
Cloak of Charisma +6
Belt of Giant Strength +6
Eternal Wand of Fireball
Boots of Striding and Springing
Warmask of the Drakemind (+1 to hit elves or dwarves)


here's what I had, don't expect a greatsword like that to be easily available. instead, go for something much less powerful. maybe have quickening wand.

ignore the stats, my DM finds having everyone reroll 1s and 2s make things more balanced. that was actually a bad roll :P

EagleWiz
2010-04-30, 02:34 PM
If you'r DM thinks bards are OP, you might have to play... a monk.:smallwink:

gdiddy
2010-04-30, 02:49 PM
He says no optimization and you want to optimize. Why play with him?

It seems like you can save a lot of drama by just finding a different group.

Rather than trying to sneak optimization by him, slowly getting everything banned, or having a falling out with your friend, I'd have him either roll up a character for you (otherwise, I really only see conflict coming from this situation) or not play.

Human Paragon 3
2010-04-30, 02:53 PM
You can still pull off a good party face without any of the "broken" classes your DM seems to ban.

I have a feeling he'll ban the mindspy, too.

Why don't you go with a feat rogue/marshal and optimize to social skills. Surely he won't find that overpowered. Then get a mount and use your rogue feats for the spirited charge line, so you won't be useless in combat. Marshal gives the lance proficiency and some great CHA related synergies.

Prioritize CHA then STR then INT, Con, Dex, wis. Or if you don't care about damage, bump up Dex. The ride skill has a lot of cool tricks you can use, like dropping down and using your mount for cover. Eventually when you get money, you can get a flying figurine of wondrous power or something.

Put lots of ranks in UMD to make good use of that Cha. UMD plus social skills plus mounted combat will make you a really cool and potent character, and your group will love you for the marshal auras.

Myou
2010-04-30, 03:28 PM
No ToB. DM says they are overpowerd. He's a bit of a tool actually.

And Paladin is an NPC class...

Why are you putting up with this moron? :smallconfused:

gdiddy
2010-04-30, 03:32 PM
I wouldn't call him a moron, he just wants something very specific from the game. Something most people here wouldn't, including me.

the humanity
2010-04-30, 03:47 PM
he doesn't want a lot of 'bam, he's dead!', he envisions a big epic fight and every time he does somebody suggests a dragon dives into the mountain or talks his way out of it. I think he should just cheat on saves or something, and give it to him every once and a while, but that's just me.

Human Paragon 3
2010-04-30, 03:48 PM
he doesn't want a lot of 'bam, he's dead!', he envisions a big epic fight and every time he does somebody suggests a dragon dives into the mountain or talks his way out of it. I think he should just cheat on saves or something, and give it to him every once and a while, but that's just me.

huh? I don't follow at all.

Doc Roc
2010-04-30, 03:49 PM
I think you should bring a copy of Savage Worlds to the next session, and give it to him as a gift.

Amphetryon
2010-04-30, 03:54 PM
huh? I don't follow at all.

At some tables, 3.5 is not a good emulator of epic, drawn-out, tense battles, because optimization combines with tactics and/or luck to make the DM's climactic battle (to rescue the princess from the dragon before she falls into the volcano and dooms the kingom) devolve into "Shivering Touch. 18 DEX damage - is it helpless? Coup de Gras" instead. Some DMs are fine with that. Others get a bit ... terse when you throw Op-Fu all over their campaign and story.

If I'm reading thehumanity's post correctly, he perceives LBD's DM as one of these types, often referred to as a 'Narrativist' DM.

the humanity
2010-04-30, 04:04 PM
^nail on the head.

I'm like that, I usually have power attackers as my problem though, I just fix it by boosting my NPC's in the hit points, so they stick around for a few attacks.

Human Paragon 3
2010-04-30, 04:05 PM
Ah, I see. I can kind of get on board with that, but look at what classes the DM DID allow in the party. Wizard? Favored Soul? oooo....k....

gdiddy
2010-04-30, 04:09 PM
You can bet they're nerfed, too. And that their players are not whipping around Op-Fu.

the humanity
2010-04-30, 04:10 PM
they're probably going for damaging spells instead of multipurpose kill em all/kill yourself/kill your buddy spells, which is why I suggested the Mindspy build. it doesn't really do save or die. it just hits hard.

I bet if the wizard one day used all his 7th level slots for Final Rebuke, the DM and him would have a few words.

Human Paragon 3
2010-04-30, 04:19 PM
I still think Marshal/Feat Rogue is a really fun and solid way to go, as the difficulty seems to be "what will the DM allow" not "what is the best possible 5th wheel (Factotum!).

Myou
2010-04-30, 04:59 PM
I wouldn't call him a moron, he just wants something very specific from the game. Something most people here wouldn't, including me.

Yeah, well the OP called him a tool, I just paraphrased.

I was asking why the OP puts with with this tool for a DM. Does that satisfy your pedantry? :smalltongue:

gdiddy
2010-04-30, 05:12 PM
I wouldn't call him a tool either, because we only have one half of the story.

:smallwink:

This is the internet and I take everything with a grain of salt.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-30, 05:25 PM
This is the internet and I take everything with a grain of salt.Welcome to Highbloodpressureville.

the humanity
2010-04-30, 05:34 PM
Welcome to Highbloodpressureville.

sadly, this is one of the more relaxed forums I frequent.

Kylarra
2010-04-30, 05:36 PM
My guess is he plays for the ridiculous shenanigans he can get into before they get banned.

gdiddy
2010-04-30, 05:49 PM
My guess is he plays for the ridiculous shenanigans he can get into before they get banned.

You mean the LuckyBoneDice? Maybe. However, in any case, if we help him circumvent the rules the DM keeps throwing around, it doesn't help. In fact, it only harms the game, by enabling their toxic relationship. They should talk things out and either Dice should leave the game, the DM should let him do whatever he wants and one shot every encounter, or Dice should play something more in line with the game's power level. I tend toward either the first or last option, as it preserves everyone's enjoyment, not just Dice's.

the humanity
2010-04-30, 05:54 PM
the DM should boost his encounters, cheat his saves, do whatever he needs to to keep the battle going just as he wants.

if the monster is going too powerfully, he can have him fail a save, or roll a few ones.

'man, you guys are really lucky, one more hit and that guys cleave would have shredded all of you!' :smallwink:

Myou
2010-04-30, 06:01 PM
I wouldn't call him a tool either, because we only have one half of the story.

:smallwink:

This is the internet and I take everything with a grain of salt.

I didn't call him a tool, the OP did. :smallconfused:

All I'm asking is why the OP puts up with a guy that he considers a tool.

Tiki Snakes
2010-04-30, 09:26 PM
So, amongst other things Bard and Paladin are banned? As are various more exotic classes and prc's of varying power and quality? Multiclassing makes him cautious?

Well, I guess you're just going to have to play something simple. Like a straight Druid, (They don't even get much in the way of armour proficiency!) or Wizard (Such low HP).
I'd add cleric, but something tells me you aren't interested. :smallsmile:

Seriously though, at this point it's starting to sound like you need to ask his high and mightyness for a list of allowed classes. It'd save everyone involved a lot of time.

And if he continues to nerf things erratically, see if you/the playground can find a painfully powerful Aristocrat/expert/adept style build and see if you can get an NPC class banned for being too powerful. :smallbiggrin:

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-30, 09:30 PM
Well, I guess you're just going to have to play something simple. Like a straight DruidThe wife of a (horrible) DM I used to play with had a polysexual druid. In her case, when she said she was a nature lover, she meant it. [/tangent]

WildPyre
2010-04-30, 09:33 PM
I stand fully behind the idea of breaking the NPC classes.

mabriss lethe
2010-04-30, 09:59 PM
at first level? how about a chicken infested commoner with death devotion?

gdiddy
2010-04-30, 10:57 PM
Yay! An Arms Race with the person who is running reality. :smallsigh:

Why wouldn't he opt out of the game, instead of trying to wreck everyone else's' good time? You're not going to show him that he's doing DnD wrong, mostly because it's impossible, as long as people on a whole are having a good time.