PDA

View Full Version : I'm epic... so why do I feel so useless? (Cleric, 3.5)



shimmercat
2010-04-28, 09:12 PM
Long post ahead, sorry! :smalleek: Decided to make this its own thread, rather than just editing my rather long Native Outsider thread.

I need help. I've been playing this character for 16 levels now, over a year and a half RL time. We just reached 21st level, and so I've officially got my first epic character. I should be excited. I'm really really not. I think it's because the character is pretty useless and boring mechanics wise.


The game:

D&D 3.5. RP-driven. Custom world (http://osvechnih.wikidot.com/) with a lot of custom rules -- of the major campaign settings, the world is closest in flavor to Eberron, but it really is a custom world. We've got a LOT of homebrew involving the gods and how divine stuff works. Nautical campaign, with five players (barbarian/fighter, rogue/ranger, paladin, summony air druid, and me, the cleric). We are not optimized, and are generally probably not going to go with stuff that seems overpowered. (It's an RP-driven game, after all.) The game is pretty casual and laid back -- we aren't rules nazis at all.


The character (Dieder):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v70/shimmercat/MarkerD.png
By me!

Human male, CG
Rogue 1, Clecic 10, Contemplative 10
God: Bahamut (http://osvechnih.wikidot.com/bahamut) (similar to but not quite the same as the typical Bahamut)
Domains: Travel, Luck, Protection, Good
Ability scores (w/o magic items, w/ tomes): STR 14, DEX 18, CON 13, INT 20, WIS 24, CHA 22
Relevant Feats: Spontaneous Domain Caster (Travel & Luck), Leadership, Dragon Prophesier, Prophesy's Shepard, Epic Leadership (21st level feat)
Weapon (VERY rarely used because I suck with it): Pistol

Playstyle:

Dieder is the party face. I'm really happy with him personality-wise and out of battle; he's a rich character with a lot of interesting stuff going on, and he's fun to play. He is the Captain of a ship, and the crew is covered by his Leadership feat. He's completely Good (although not afraid to lie and swindle), and is willing to do almost anything for his crew. He strongly prefers to not kill humans and humanoids, but he'll kill monsters, and he'll let the other party members kill humanoids. He is strongly devoted to his god, although I can see him having a crisis of faith soon, given the direction plot events have gone. I am planning on him starting to raise an army.

Out of battle mechanics-wise, Dieder is the utility caster. He's in charge of getting people from place to place -- he teleports, after all. We have a homebrew spell "Teleport Ship" as his 9th level spell for Travel domain. My FAVORITE spell is Discern Location. We spend a lot of time trying to find people -- after all, we have a shipful of NPCs we care about and they are constantly getting into trouble. His best skills include Bluff, Diplomacy, Know: Religion, Know: Geography, Prof: Sailor, Sense Motive, and Spellcraft.

In battle (THIS IS WHERE THE ISSUES LIE), Dieder's basically a flying healbot. I have a hard time hitting things with spells -- my caster level/DCs just don't seem to be good enough (despite being CL 20 and having a Wis mod of +10). Plus, he prefers to not kill humanoids himself. This was a character growth point and I'd prefer to not screw too much with it. He WILL kill monsters, undead, dragons, everything else, and humanoids that he really really hates. In difficult/plot battles, I have a rough time keeping up with all the healing that needs to be done (although the Prophesy's Shepard helped a lot with that). In easy battles, I often skip my turns because I have nothing to do.

The party:

Fighter/Barbarian: Melee. Hits once a round, and hits hard.
Paladin: Melee. Uses an oversized sword, lots of attacks and Smite Evils.
Ranger/Rogue: Melee, two weapon fighter. Also uses a lot of wands (he kinda stands in for a wizard for us).
Druid: Air Elemental Savant, wants to be a wizard, SUMMONS and flash-bangs.

I'd prefer not to summon or melee fight because we kinda have both of those covered.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v70/shimmercat/VuldegradLines.gif
Also by me. From left: Simon (Ranger/Rogue), Grigoriy (Paladin, duh!), Murata (Air Druid), Dieder (Cleric), and Puku (Barbarian/Fighter)

The problem:

Dieder has been boring in battle the entire game (yes, all 19 months of it). I'm a fairly experienced player but I really suck at the mechanics aspect of the game, and I was honestly just willing to deal with him being boring in battle, because he was a lot of fun out of battle. However, recently, the other characters have overtaken him in almost all ways. I'm starting to feel useless, except for my Leadership feat, the fact that I can Teleport, and the massive healing I can deliver in battle. I'm starting to feel like Dieder is "The Ride," with some healing thrown in.

I don't mind being upstaged in some ways, but I feel like at this point, I'm completely upstaged in all ways, including stuff that made the character unique and special at lower levels (like his ability to fly). I have to cast a spell (using an action), and then get Fly 60ft, good manueverability. The druid can fly automatically, with 100ft and perfect maneuverability. This is happening in other areas as well. (And in case the druid's player finds this, I'm not holding this against you! This is an example of one of LOTS of things that's happening, and it's my fault, not yours!)

I found the capstone of Contemplative to be immensely unsatisfying, and I think it's because I was hoping it would give Dieder some Oomph. It gave him... basically nothing useful at all. XD

And I really don't know what to do with him epic. I think I need to change direction, but I'm not sure how. (I am required to take the Demigod epic destiny (http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drfe/20080428), although I can take the feats at any time from level 21 to 30, as long as I'm done by 30. The feats have been tweaked some to better fit the world. The whole party is taking an epic destiny.) I'm not looking for the most POWERFUL things to do, I'm looking for something that would be fun and special.

Some MINOR retconning/retraining may be acceptable with the DM, so if you see something, feel free to suggest it. But I'd prefer to not be redoing the whole character. I've got reasons for the Rogue dip (RP + skills).

I've shifted a lot in my vision of the character -- I'm not sure if he's really a full caster anymore, despite having the levels. I have no idea what he IS, though.

Flavor-wise, dragon stuff is a good choice as he's got a dragon god (despite being completely human -- he started worshiping the god as "The Wandering Star" and learned later than he was actually worshiping Bahamut). I also like angel-y things for this character. Luck is a big theme for him as well.

Do people have any suggestions?


And thank you for reading all of this, if you did. XD I wanted to give enough info, and... well, when you've been playing the character for as long as I've been playing Dieder... XD I hope I gave all the info that's needed, without going into too much detail... :smalleek:

Lin Bayaseda
2010-04-28, 09:18 PM
Go the Summoning path. Remember, no matter how useless you are, you can always summong monsters who aren't.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-28, 09:18 PM
Epic Spellcasting instead of Epic leadership?

You can grant yourself all day flying if you desire.
If you need help crafting the spell's DC, let us know.

shimmercat
2010-04-28, 09:23 PM
The druid is a summoner, and I'd REALLY prefer to not make rounds take any longer than they already do, so I'd prefer to not be summoning things.

Epic Leadership is unfortunately non-negotiable. It means my crew can level up (which they SORELY need) and it means I can start my army.

I'm planning on taking Epic Spellcasting at 24th level, although I'm not terribly excited about it, either. The DM and the druid are all SUPER INTO making epic spells, and I'm pretty "eh" about it.

Jack_Simth
2010-04-28, 09:27 PM
If you're not doing so good in battle as a Cleric, it's because you're not (ab)using the right spells.

You don't want to heal-bot? Don't heal-bot. You can:

If you can't hit, Buff others: Magic Vestments and Greater Magic Weapon gives you +5 for your weapons and armor are negligible cost - and at this level, you can pretty much do the entire party. Doesn't stack with an inherent enchantment in the weapon/armor, but does mean you can use those +'s on other things. Oh yes, and the Cleric gets a *very nice* listing of buff spells, especially if you browse Spell Compendium (Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Recitation, Holy Aura, and Elation are all very useful group-buff spells - handy for when you've got those gobs of followers using bows!).

If you can't hit, spend a round buffing, and now you can: A few simple spells will do you; there's the core Trifeca: Divine Favor, Divine Power, and Righteous Might. Quicken Divine Favor and Divine Power, cast Righteous Might normally. First round of battle? Quickened Divine Power, Righteous Might. Second round of battle? Quickened Divine Favor, Charge. You get: +1 Size Category, +10 Strength, full BAB (character level - you've got BAB of +21, including the extra attacks... and the way it's worded, your Epic Attack Bonus stacks fully with that...) +3 Luck to attack and damage, and some defense. You should be able to hit things, now. Fairly hard, too (especially if you arrange to get Power Attack and a two-handed weapon).

If you can't hit, Summon something that can: You have all the Summoning spells as a Cleric. Familiarize yourself with them, and use them. Augment Summoning helps, but isn't required. Be warned: Most summons are little more than speed-bumps at this level, so focus on multiple summonings for flanking aid-another buddies for the party.

There's other things you can do. What all do you want to do?

Doc Roc
2010-04-28, 09:31 PM
I has idea:

Retrain as an ideal cleric:
Cloistered Cleric 5/Malconvoker 9/ Contemplative 6/Malconvoker 1(will need to get GM to brew up an epic progression, since malconvoker is a 9 level PrC)/Void Disciple 1

Theme:
I'mma charmin' devil!
I am boss!

Gets:
3 free domains, including Knowledge.
Recommend:
Time domain

Hugely powerful summons. Literally mind-crushing.
Sense Void, which will find anything within 1000 miles. Period. It's (su), non-divination, and once per day.
Epic spellcasting.

Krazddndfreek
2010-04-28, 09:40 PM
DMM Persist + any buff.

Mongoose87
2010-04-28, 09:45 PM
I'm planning on taking Epic Spellcasting at 24th level, although I'm not terribly excited about it, either. The DM and the druid are all SUPER INTO making epic spells, and I'm pretty "eh" about it.

Take it ASAP. If you try hard enough, you can do most anything with Epic Spells.

Doc Roc
2010-04-28, 09:50 PM
Take it ASAP. If you try hard enough, you can do most anything with Epic Spells.

If they're into it, then the game is effectively a smoldering heap if the druid is remotely decent at it.

shimmercat
2010-04-28, 09:51 PM
Edited in that I'm not interested in summoning (which I should have said in the first place, sorry!)

I am taking Epic Spellcasting as soon as possible. I had to take Epic Leadership first! Really, I did!

Doc Roc: Yeah, the druid is good at it. XD The DM is pretty strict about spells, though, and we ARE NOT OPTIMIZERS. Plus, she's got plot spells (Create Shifter from Human! 8D) to make before she can start making flash-bang and summoning spells. These things help.... a little.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-28, 09:51 PM
To be fair, Epic spells are horrid at blasting spells.
You'd be better off casting non-epic for blasting (not that blasting is great, but still).

Doc Roc
2010-04-28, 09:52 PM
Edited in that I'm not interested in summoning (which I should have said in the first place, sorry!)

I am taking Epic Spellcasting as soon as possible. I had to take Epic Leadership first! Really, I did!

:(

Then how do you feel about BUFFS?

shimmercat
2010-04-28, 09:58 PM
I find buffs kinda tedious, honestly. XD If I had a really good setup, it may be worth it but... Yes, I know that they are the classic way to break a cleric.

The goal here is not to make my character the MOST POWERFUL EVER. The goal is to make him FUN IN BATTLE (and hopefully keep the same flavor he's always had). These things are not necessarily equivalent. XD

randomhero00
2010-04-28, 09:58 PM
I'm not sure what you're asking... You want more combat power but don't want to do/take any of the things that would help you most (summoning, epic casting). You can't really retrain (retraining into a DMM persist cleric would be huge, almost all your feats.) So what kind of advice are you looking for?

Prodan
2010-04-28, 10:00 PM
I find buffs kinda tedious, honestly. XD If I had a really good setup, it may be worth it but... Yes, I know that they are the classic way to break a cleric.

The goal here is not to make my character the MOST POWERFUL EVER. The goal is to make him FUN IN BATTLE (and hopefully keep the same flavor he's always had). These things are not necessarily equivalent. XD
Observation: Your request is very vague.
Hypothesis: You are not having fun because you do not know what you want to do with your character in combat.

Doc Roc
2010-04-28, 10:09 PM
Just persist shapechange, and live your life as a huge monstrosity.

Heck, if you opt to be a solar or similar, you're gonna get two sets of 9th level clerical casting. Have fun.

shimmercat
2010-04-28, 10:12 PM
I shot down summoning because we ALREADY have hour-long rounds, and I really don't want to be adding to the length more than necessary.

And I haven't shot down Epic Spellcasting... I just can't retcon/retrain it into my 21st level feat slot because of Epic Leadership. I am taking Epic Spellcasting at 24th level, which is the soonest I can.

Honestly, I LIKE being a utility caster and healer. I just have NO CLUE what to do in battle. I find it hard to believe that Epic Spellcasting and summoning are my only options for being useful.

A large part of the problem with buffing is that the group I'm in can't handle adding numbers on the fly. So... if I tell them that I'm casting a spell that gives them +2 to hit, they spend the next 5 rounds forgetting to add in the +2, even when reminded. I'm serious. Simplification is very important with this group.

So I could buff myself, but with a gun as my weapon and 3 melee fighters already, I'm not sure how that would help.

I'm really not TRYING to be difficult. :smalleek:


Observation: Your request is very vague.
Hypothesis: You are not having fun because you do not know what you want to do with your character in combat.
Yup. Looking for unconventional suggestions.

Doc Roc
2010-04-28, 10:14 PM
That's reasonable. But the fact of the matter is that my experience has been that epic is basically, Spreadsheets: The Game, even when it tries hard not to be. I'm not sure you have a lot of good options that will actually be fun.

shimmercat
2010-04-28, 10:20 PM
I have three spreadsheets for this character already. XD The druid and the DM have lots and lots of spreadsheets too. Still working on getting the melee fighters to make some. I think it's a lost cause at this point. :smallsigh:

I've never played in an epic game before... is it really that bad? ._. We love these characters too much at this point, and the DM has lots of epic plotlines for us, but if the battles are going to all be as terribly tedious as the majority of battles recently have been, we may have a problem.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-28, 10:20 PM
Hold up a sign on a buffed person's turn, which says, "+10 AC, +20 damage per hit," and I'm sure they'll remember.

Prodan
2010-04-28, 10:21 PM
Yup. Looking for unconventional suggestions.

Suggestions: Control Water, Miracle, Fire Storm, Earthquake, Blade Barrier...

lsfreak
2010-04-28, 10:22 PM
A large part of the problem with buffing is that the group I'm in can't handle adding numbers on the fly. So... if I tell them that I'm casting a spell that gives them +2 to hit, they spend the next 5 rounds forgetting to add in the +2, even when reminded. I'm serious. Simplification is very important with this group.

Buy a whiteboard. Write down everyone's names. Make a list of what pluses people get from you. Stick it in the middle of the table, and beat them over the head when they forget to add it in. They'll learn quickly.

Doc Roc
2010-04-28, 10:23 PM
My suggestion is to just never go epic. Level 20 is bad, but there's a magical stack of fail waiting for you across the 21 threshold. Honestly, talk to your GM about freezing the creation of new epic spells, and if possible, just treat the game like it doesn't go epic at 21.

shimmercat
2010-04-28, 10:23 PM
Lycanthromancer: that is hilarious and actually a good idea. XD NOW TO GET THEM TO ADD THE NUMBERS TOGETHER RATHER THAN JUST SHOUT "48+95+21!" AT THE DM. :smallsigh: (What's really funny is that the accountant in the group is the worst offender.)

lsfreak: We've got a whiteboard. I don't think we could possibly play without it. XD

Doc Roc: Yikes. I may talk to him about possibly restricting epic spells to plot-relevant-only, but he loves them so much I doubt we'd even get that.

Prodan: I'm still getting the feel for Miracle. I use all those spells you just listed, though.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-28, 10:24 PM
Lycanthromancer, that is hilarious and actually a good idea. XD NOW TO GET THEM TO ADD THE NUMBERS TOGETHER RATHER THAN JUST SHOUT "48+95+21!" AT THE DM. :smallsigh: (What's really funny is that the accountant in the group is the worst offender.)If he was any good at math, he wouldn't BE an accountant.

Mongoose87
2010-04-28, 10:27 PM
Maybe the problem isn't what you're doing as an individual so much as you have hour-long rounds?

herrhauptmann
2010-04-28, 10:35 PM
A large part of the problem with buffing is that the group I'm in can't handle adding numbers on the fly. So... if I tell them that I'm casting a spell that gives them +2 to hit, they spend the next 5 rounds forgetting to add in the +2, even when reminded. I'm serious. Simplification is very important with this group.

So I could buff myself, but with a gun as my weapon and 3 melee fighters already, I'm not sure how that would help.


Is there a particular reason you stick with a gun for combat? From what I've seen, guns in every setting suck. With the worst ones requiring feats, large amounts of money per shot (from the level 5 point of view), and having less damage than a bow which requires fewer feats.
You've seen Pirates of the Caribbean right? You know how Jack just carries his pistol around and uses only once in the final seconds of fighting? Switch to a different weapon for combat, one that will benefit from more buffs than your gun. Keep your gun to use as your signature weapon, name it, make it look all flashy. But spend most of your time beating people with a mace.

That mace will benefit from divine power/favor, righteous might etc. At taht point, it doesn't matter if your base strength is in the teens, because the cleric can generally out fight the fighter.

If you really get into the buffing yourself, carry two character sheets. One is your normal self, the other has your stats with your persisted buffs. Once you've got the sheet for your normal buffs, it'll be simpler to add in the less common buffs in your head (such as haste or luminous armor)
For your group, have a couple index cards taht say "+2 attack, +2 damage" or whatever else and hand those out when you buff someone.

edit: Whoa, like 6 posts while I was typing. FREAKIN NINJAS!

Doc Roc
2010-04-28, 10:47 PM
If he was any good at math, he wouldn't BE an accountant.

As a C hacker, I lawled.

sofawall
2010-04-28, 10:48 PM
I've never played in an epic game before... is it really that bad?

Frankly, there is a reason every build and every suggestion made in, by or for Char Op stops at 20. Epic is stupid. Playing through the levels, you start to notices classes slipping away in terms of power, some going ahead, some falling back. The old saying is Fighters Linear, Wizards Quadratic. Wizards gain power faster, so Fighters start falling father and farther behind. In Epic, it would an understatement to say Fighters Linear, Wizards Factorial. A level 21 wizard could probably wipe out an infinite amount of level 21 Fighters, for example.

Akal Saris
2010-04-28, 10:55 PM
Well, let's go through some things you can do in a fight without changing the build:

Heal people: Easy enough, but boring. Let's assume you spend 1 round a fight doing a Mass Heal to keep everyone going.

Buff people: Also boring and unfulfilling, BUT very useful. Seriously, as Jack Smith mentioned, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Recitation, and Holy Aura are terrific spells. Brilliant Aura (also Spell compendium) is another fantastic option. I have faith that your group can remember ONE buff if you write it on a piece of paper in big letters. Cast Brilliant Aura or Righteous Wrath of the Faithful every fight, and the whole party will benefit enormously. 1 round down each fight.

Ranged combat: Okay, the pistol sucks, but it's not hopeless. Wish for a +1 Reloading Precise pistol (MIC properties), which with a bit of house ruling to work with pistols should let you reload as a free action and take away your penalty to hit in melee. Spend one round buffing with Divine Agility and a quickened Divine power (you can afford a rod of this easily enough by this point), and suddenly you have +19 BAB and +10 to agility. Good as a fallback option or for combats that are obviously too easy for the party - instead of skipping your turn spend it shooting at people.

Melee combat: Alright, you don't want to do this, fair enough. It's a good option though.

Summoning: I agree on the spreadsheets here - let's avoid this. Good option though.

Utility casting/battlefield control: Lots of good options here. Greater Bestow Curse can shut down an opponent, Vulnerability gets rid of DR, Greater Stone Shape re-arranges the battlefield completely. Just 1 round/combat with one of these can really change things.

Save or die's: It seems you don't have high enough stats to succeed on these, so we'll skip them.

Blasting: Blasting isn't optimal, but it sounds like you might enjoy it a few rounds each fight. Good spells from Spell Compendium: Radiant Assault, Bolt of Glory, Cometfall, Dragonbreath. You could spend 3-4 rounds blasting with these spells. The Storm domain (see below) also has some great blasting spells - in my 13th level game the real blaster of the group isn't our wizard but our storm/weather specialized cleric. She puts the rest of the party to shame.

Charming: The Dragon domain (see below) gives Mass Suggestion and Dominate Monster - you could spend a round to take control of some monsters and steal the DM's notes for them. Combat won't really take longer since you'll be taking away time that the DM would otherwise have had to spend. This would be a good option against humanoid opponents who you don't want to kill.

Domains: There's a 2nd level spell in Complete Champion that lets you switch your domains for the day as long as its from the same deity. Bahamut has the Air, Good, Dragon, Luck, Protection, Nobility, and Storm domains.

Basically, I think most combats run ~10 rounds at high levels. Pick some spells from all of the things I mentioned, plus your usual teleports and divinations for out of combat. With a varied enough list, you should easily be one of the most important members of your party in combat. Good luck!

randomhero00
2010-04-28, 11:01 PM
Since you guys are more into the roleplay aspect (I am too) I suggest thumbing your nose at the rules (which you've already started at anyway.) What I mean is, describe something cool in combat that would fit your character and be fun and just do it!

"I call storm clouds down from the heavens and bring forth lightning from mine eyes!" *Roll a d4 and 10d6 damage.* "My foe is smote with holy power, he is stunned for 3 rounds and takes 34 points of damage." When your DM goes, "wtf?" Just go, "epic baby, epic." :smallbiggrin: or something like that.

Eldariel
2010-04-28, 11:01 PM
You'll want Divine Spell Power to empower your spells if you intend on offensively casting. Miracle can copy, among others, Control Winds and Control Weather which tend to be pretty huge in naval campaigns (perfect for wrecking ships). Buffs are indeed a good option; maybe they won't remember minor bonuses, but I'm actually seconding Lycanthromancer's idea of writing a sign of every buff you cast and holding them up on other peoples' turns. Maybe they'll finally remember.

Few good buffs:
- Vigorous Circle [Spell Compendium]
- Righteous Wrath of the Faithful [Spell Compendium]
- Dimension Door (quickened DD after your Standard Action spell to transfer the whole party to melee range granting 'em all a full attack)
- Recitation [SC] (provided others share your faith)
- Conviction [SC]

All-day should of course involve Heroes' Feast, Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment on every shield, armor and weapon the party owns, Extended Freedom of Movement on everyone (3 castings should be enough for all-day; Extended FoM lasts 6 hours), Superior Resistance, Spell Resistance (or mass; again Extended), Girallon's Blessing+Fuse Arms (both Extended), etc.

Honestly, if remembering this stuff is a problem, have people write their stats down with the buffs included since you'll cast them every day (or have them type numbers in parenthesis down next to the normal stuff). Also, you can ready actions to move people around to avoid attacks/spells from enemies or whatever to trade your actions on 1-for-1 basis to the opponent's.

There are also various area control spells on your list like Wall of Stone, Antilife Shell, Silence, Repulsion, etc. Basically, things that allow you to simply dictate enemies can't move in some places, isolate enemy groups and such. Goes well with your whole pacifism-thing (Silence is a very good readied action against casters on the area casting mode) and never offer saves or the like. And remember that for offense, Plane Shift is both, offensively and utility-wise a great spell and a level 5 for you; send people to Elemental Plane of Water, Positive Energy Plane, The Abyss or some other unhealthy environment if you want to kill them. It's a Will-save, though. But just pimp your Wisdom out something severe and you'll be fine.

Oh, and Greater Dispel Magic! I'm sure you're facing plenty of enemy spellcasters and spellcasting monsters already so getting rid of their protections tends to be a good idea, especially since you can hit multiples at once. Get a Rod of Chain Spell [Magic Item Compendium] to short-circuit entire team's buffs and magic items all at once...just warn DM ahead of time so he can prepare stats without those. And as said before, you could Miracle Giant Size [Complete Arcane] if you want to go smackdown (-8 to hit, but +32 Strength and Colossal Weapon + size; also +12 Constitution, -4 Dexterity), Quicken Divine Power and go town. Really, Clerics tend to excel at smashing face rather than shooting guns, which is again something to consider.

Also, consider Holy Word to disable non-Good enemies if their HD is lower than your caster level and consider caster level buffs like Beads of Karma [DMG item], Ankh of Ascension [Complete Divine/Magic Item Compendium], and the mentioned Divine Spell Power-feat. As a bonus, it's very flavorful for an over-good guy like you, works against almost anyone and only has Spell Resistance (which your buffed Caster Level should have little trouble beating) not offering a save. And never affects Good allies.


For reworking? Extend Spell, Quicken Spell, Divine Spell Power. Some of those. Those are plenty useful. Also, Chain Spell is pretty nice, for a buffomancer which Clerics excel at. Pick which you like the best, go with those. Use Metamagic Rods of the rest.

druid91
2010-04-28, 11:14 PM
Get Collosal lead bullets shrink them down to normal size, rig them to dispel just before impact, have fun with your new hand-held howitzer.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-28, 11:17 PM
Get Collosal lead bullets shrink them down to normal size, rig them to dispel just before impact, have fun with your new hand-held howitzer.They'd expand when the hammer hits the gunpowder, likely making your gun pretty well detonate in your hand.

druid91
2010-04-28, 11:19 PM
I meant something like one of those glyph of warding spells set with a dispel. It gets close enough to an enemy to activate the glyph... and then Boom!

Toxic Avenger
2010-04-28, 11:25 PM
Or have the gun itself enchanted to cast a Dispel each time it is fired, centered at a point just a few feet in front of the muzzle. There's probably a better idea though... (like your glyph idea)

Also, this:
If he was any good at math, he wouldn't BE an accountant.
As a C hacker, I lawled.Heeheehee...Yeah, I lawled as well. *cleans computer screen* I decided to hire an accountant to do my taxes last year, and I spent more time correcting his errors than I would have just doing it myself.

druid91
2010-04-28, 11:33 PM
I just got an idea! get a bunch of stones that make antimagic fields, stick them to you opponents,(keeping your ammo protected somehow) then back off and start firing, the bullet hits the edge of the field and enlarges to doom size.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-28, 11:41 PM
Summons +1.

Summon monster 9, with a maximize? 5 avorals.

That's, right there, about 300 hp of instant healing, and 105 average Magic Missile damage per round, for 3 rounds, with 70 points after that.

Alternately, 5 Bone Devils to thwart dimensional travel, and to channel the battlefield with Ice Walls.

Alternately, 3 Vrocks for Telekinesis, stun saves, and solid levels of DoT spore damage...

Or 3 hellcats, if you need invisible in day...
Or a Couatl, for plane shift, and some sorceror spells.

There's a lot of versatility in the summon lists.

sofawall
2010-04-28, 11:42 PM
Basically, I think most combats run ~10 rounds at high levels.

If my experience (which, in a party format, runs from 5-11) combat lasts about 4 rounds. It doesn't seem to change much in that range. The only thing I can think of that might change at higher levels is needing to Dispel protections, adding a round or two.

Doc Roc
2010-04-28, 11:54 PM
Summons +1.

Summon monster 9, with a maximize? 5 avorals.

That's, right there, about 300 hp of instant healing, and 105 average Magic Missile damage per round, for 3 rounds, with 70 points after that.

Alternately, 5 Bone Devils to thwart dimensional travel, and to channel the battlefield with Ice Walls.

Alternately, 3 Vrocks for Telekinesis, stun saves, and solid levels of DoT spore damage...

Or 3 hellcats, if you need invisible in day...
Or a Couatl, for plane shift, and some sorceror spells.

There's a lot of versatility in the summon lists.

It becomes madness if you're running a malconvoker.

Mystic Muse
2010-04-29, 12:01 AM
Can somebody explain to me exactly why epic is so bad? My current DM wants to run our game into epic levels eventually so that's why I'm asking.

Of course, I guess this DM kind of needs a reality check with D&D anyway. he's fun to play under but he doesn't have any real concept of class power.

Draz74
2010-04-29, 12:01 AM
For my part, I think you're giving up too easily on Save Or Suck or Save Or Die. +10 wisdom modifier isn't terribly impressive at Level 21, but it's not utterly pathetic either. (Can you boost it further, btw? Do you already have a +5 inherent bonus, for example?)

That means you can spam DC 29+ save-or-suck spells a few times per day. CR 21 monsters shouldn't pass those every time.

Either your DM is throwing monsters with scary-good saves at you and might want to tone them back so you'll have fun, or you've gotten unlucky a few times with monsters rolling their saves well, so you've become scared to use these spells as much as you should.

Prodan
2010-04-29, 12:21 AM
Can somebody explain to me exactly why epic is so bad?

Want to do something? You can do it with epic spellcasting.

That's a pretty big problem when it comes time to challenge the character.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-29, 12:44 AM
It becomes madness if you're running a malconvoker.

For a caster that really wants to optimize Magic Missiles?

Let's see, without malconvoker, at level 20.

Time stop, Maximize(by rod): 10 rounds of freeze time.

Round 1: Summon monster 9(maximize by rod) 5 avorals
Round 2: Summon monster 9(maximize by rod) 5 avorals
Round 3: Summon Monster 9(maximize by rod) 5 avorals
Round 4: Summon Monster 9(maximize by rod) 5 avorals
Round 5: Delay until time resumes.

Time resumes:
20 Avorals: Empowered Magic Missile (CL 8): 21 damage each = 420 average damage

Maximize Empower Magic Missile (CL 20): 33.75 average damage

Quickened Empower Maximize Magic Missile: 33.75 average damage (maximize = Residual Metamagic).

487.5 average damage in one round. And I'm not trying particularly hard.
And yes, this gets crazy with malconvoker.

Orran
2010-04-29, 12:55 AM
In order to maximise all those summon monster's you'll need to reduce the casting time so you can draw a new rod. Also, IIRC Residual magic requires the spell to be cast on the next round. Also, I think you just proved that optimizing magic missile isn't really that great, since you've spent 5 level 9 spell slots (+your own MM spells) for 487 damage. Wouldn't maw of chaos have worked better?

Doc Roc
2010-04-29, 01:11 AM
Indubitably. But when your weakest option creates a flock of celestials, you're doing okay.

Eldariel
2010-04-29, 01:16 AM
...a flock of celestials...

Can't resist anymore. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw) Even though everyone has seen that already. Still.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-29, 01:48 AM
In order to maximise all those summon monster's you'll need to reduce the casting time so you can draw a new rod. Also, IIRC Residual magic requires the spell to be cast on the next round. Also, I think you just proved that optimizing magic missile isn't really that great, since you've spent 5 level 9 spell slots (+your own MM spells) for 487 damage. Wouldn't maw of chaos have worked better?

420 damage in one round, not counting your actions.
420 damage the next round too.
420 the round after that.
280 damage for another 10 or so rounds.

Enough readied actions to disrupt casting via damage to choke a donkey.

Action economy = the only economy. An extra 20 full round actions is rather solid, as an option.

Split up as you desire. At as many targets within 180 feet as you like.

No, it's not optimal... Then, it's not the only option. Add in 1300 hp of healing, more or less... and other spell options as well (lightning bolts are 160d6 damage (average 560 damage, reflex for half.

Let's compare that to Maw of Chaos, at an average damage of... 120 per round (Maximized). Yeah, Maw stuns. However, there are virtually no creatures in the monster manual that can survive the damages the other method puts out.

Heck, a single Summon Monster for 5 avorals is... 105 damage per round for 3 rounds, 140 damage per round for 3 rounds (electricity, reflex half), 195 hp of healing, and 75 damage per round at will. No stun effect, but much added versatility.

Also: For the drawing a new rod? Storing glove.

Fizban
2010-04-29, 03:27 AM
Problem: spell resistance is not trivial when your caster level is what, 8? Other than that, wow, I'm liking the flight of the magic missile...kyries.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-29, 03:37 AM
Problem: spell resistance is not trivial when your caster level is what, 8? Other than that, wow, I'm liking the flight of the magic missile...kyries.

If SR is your worry, you can go with lesser numbers.

15 Vrocks. (from the summon monster 8 list)

30 foot radius stun (x15).
Close Range spore attack (1d8, then 1d4 per round for 10 rounds) - Free action
Dance of ruin(Globe of invisibility is your friend here): 20d6 damage (x5) Reflex 18 Half, 100 foot radius.

Disadvantage: Less damage (Dance of ruin, the most powerful ability, is 350 average damage in 3 rounds). Advantage: No SR.

Alternately, 20 Yeth Hounds (doable with summon monster 6's). 300 foot radius Bay. Yeah, the DC's only 11... But 20 saves or 2d4 rounds of panic. (even if you only fail on a 1, you only have a 36% chance to pass them all.)

EDIT: The real advantage of the Avorals isn't just that they do decent damage in combat (though they do). Even one summon will get over 100 damage per round for 3 rounds, and 75 damage per round thereafter.

No, the real advantage is the healing they can do after the fight ends, also. 1 spell (cast as a cleric or a arcanist) can contribute offensively, and then turn around and contribute defensively. It's multiple functions in one cast.

Akal Saris
2010-04-29, 05:03 AM
Indubitably. But when your weakest option creates a flock of celestials, you're doing okay.

CELESTIAL HORDES COME FORTH! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw)

Optimystik
2010-04-29, 06:10 AM
Summoning, Buffing and Melee are really the cleric's bread and butter. If those aren't things you want to do, you may have picked the wrong class. :smallfrown:

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-29, 06:58 AM
Summoning, Buffing and Melee are really the cleric's bread and butter. If those aren't things you want to do, you may have picked the wrong class. :smallfrown:

Well, in fairness, you need not do all three. I made an excellent summoner/buffer, that found the idea of personally killing things... distasteful. Not that he had any moral qualms, mind you; he realized that some things just need killin'... He just found it... base, vulgar, and messy.

dropdadgbe
2010-04-29, 07:09 AM
I'm the DM for this particular game, and I just found this thread!


If he was any good at math, he wouldn't BE an accountant.
She's an accountant because she's really good at making spreadsheets, and because she can search records to find/fix teller's mistakes. Sit her in front of a computer and she's an adding and subtracting fiend. But at the end of the week after she's put in her 40+ hours of banking, she usually just wants a chance to sit down, be lazy, and let somebody else worry about the numbers.

But no, the irony isn't lost on us either.


Frankly, there is a reason every build and every suggestion made in, by or for Char Op stops at 20. Epic is stupid. Playing through the levels, you start to notices classes slipping away in terms of power, some going ahead, some falling back. The old saying is Fighters Linear, Wizards Quadratic. Wizards gain power faster, so Fighters start falling father and farther behind. In Epic, it would an understatement to say Fighters Linear, Wizards Factorial. A level 21 wizard could probably wipe out an infinite amount of level 21 Fighters, for example.
Oddly enough, there's no wizards in the group -- nobody wanted to play one. All of the casting gets done by the Druid and the Cleric, unless they call in a favor from various NPCs.


Ranged combat: Okay, the pistol sucks, but it's not hopeless. Wish for a +1 Reloading Precise pistol (MIC properties), which with a bit of house ruling to work with pistols should let you reload as a free action and take away your penalty to hit in melee. Spend one round buffing with Divine Agility and a quickened Divine power (you can afford a rod of this easily enough by this point), and suddenly you have +19 BAB and +10 to agility. Good as a fallback option or for combats that are obviously too easy for the party - instead of skipping your turn spend it shooting at people.
Reloading? That sounds awesome, what does it cost and book is it from? So far I'd been making do with adapting crossbow feats for firearms (Rapid Reload & Instant Reload [Epic]).


For my part, I think you're giving up too easily on Save Or Suck or Save Or Die. +10 wisdom modifier isn't terribly impressive at Level 21, but it's not utterly pathetic either. (Can you boost it further, btw? Do you already have a +5 inherent bonus, for example?)
Most of the players already have a +5 inherent bonus and a +6 enhancement to one or more of their stats. Is there anything else they can do besides shell out more money for epic equipment? They've only been epic for about a session or two.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-29, 07:15 AM
Reloading? That sounds awesome, what does it cost and book is it from? So far I'd been making do with adapting crossbow feats for firearms (Rapid Reload & Instant Reload [Epic]).Think he refers to Quick Loading, which is a weapon enhancement in the Magic Item Compendium.

Most of the players already have a +5 inherent bonus and a +6 enhancement to one or more of their stats. Is there anything else they can do besides shell out more money for epic equipment? They've only been epic for about a session or two.
There are a few ways. Druid/Cleric, you say? Owl's Insight, in the SpC, is a very nice spell for raising DC's. Insight bonus to Wisdom equal to half your caster level.

Draxar
2010-04-29, 07:49 AM
Fun things to do with spells...

SRD:

Storm of Vengance will sink most ships that aren't magically protected fairly easily.

Control Weather can be used for various hi-jinks.

Spell Compendium

Greater Visage of the Deity, Greater Holy Transformation, Greater Planar Exchange – All of these buff you up a lot, letting you beat things up yourself.

Brilliant Aura: I know your group doesn't like the maths of buff spells, but this one is a simple 'ignore armour' effect.

dspeyer
2010-04-29, 09:22 AM
The classic thing for a utility caster to do in battle is battelfield control. It's more normally an arcane thing, but without an arcanist you can do it. Use things like greater stone shape to limit your enemies movements and enhance your teams. It generally requires more creativity, but that should make it more fun.

shimmercat
2010-04-29, 10:03 AM
First of all, thanks to everyone who posted suggestions! I'm starting to get some ideas. :smallbiggrin: There are a lot of posts, but I'll try to hit the most helpful ones.

Akal Saris, especially. The post you made REALLY helps. These are the things that I'm most intrigued by:

Healing: I can't get rid of this. My party would die in droves. They are just too used to having a powerful healbot watching their back. I should normally be able to keep the amount of healing I have to do down, though. I should make better use of Mass Heal -- saving high level slots doesn't help me if I can't USE those slots for something else.

Buffing: A single buff I cast all the time is a good idea. I've used Holy Aura and Recitation before, I'll look at the others (especially the Brilliant thingy).

Battlefield Control: Will definitely consider. See my comment to dspeyer.

Save or Die: Word of Chaos is the reason Dieder doesn't kill humaniods any more. XD These are out. However....

Save or Suck: THESE I am interested in... assuming I can punch through saves and SR.

Blasting: I do enjoy blasting, and actually have a few of the mentioned spells (Dragonbreath and Cometfall) on my list and USE them. Unfortunately, our battles are sometimes really squeezed into a tight space and I end up hitting teammates as well. I'll look more at these.

Charming: Our Bahamut is not the same as the classic Bahamut and he's got a different Domain set. I really like the charming idea, though. I'll talk to the DM (my Good domain does me no good at all -- ouch, pun) about Bahamut's domains, and consider charming in other ways. Specifically, I was eying the High Proselytizer epic prestige class, which definitely has some "drink the koolaid" sort of abilities.


The classic thing for a utility caster to do in battle is battelfield control. It's more normally an arcane thing, but without an arcanist you can do it. Use things like greater stone shape to limit your enemies movements and enhance your teams. It generally requires more creativity, but that should make it more fun.

I really like this idea. Although I'm wondering how I could do this when our most frequent battlefields are on a ship's deck (please don't ask me to wreck my ship ;_;), underwater, and in the middle of large cities.


For my part, I think you're giving up too easily on Save Or Suck or Save Or Die. +10 wisdom modifier isn't terribly impressive at Level 21, but it's not utterly pathetic either. (Can you boost it further, btw? Do you already have a +5 inherent bonus, for example?)

That means you can spam DC 29+ save-or-suck spells a few times per day. CR 21 monsters shouldn't pass those every time.

Either your DM is throwing monsters with scary-good saves at you and might want to tone them back so you'll have fun, or you've gotten unlucky a few times with monsters rolling their saves well, so you've become scared to use these spells as much as you should. I've got a +6 item and a +5 inherent bonus from tomes. Wis is my strongest stat, but I need a very strong Cha too, because of my position as party face and leadership-guy. I am wondering about the monsters. I know that the DM was throwing souped-up Callers from the Depths (SWr) at us (in three separate sessions), and they had SR 35. I couldn't hit them to save my life, and THAT was frustrating. I THINK the DM learned his lesson. I will ask him again.

But yes, I am wondering if I've just gotten unlucky as far as those go. I'll look around for some good Save or Suck spells.

Eldariel mentioned some good spells that I think I'm going to look into. Use of Silence in particular is interesting. We tried to do it once (against an adult black dragon at level 14) and it backfired HORRIBLY, but I call DM error on that whole battle (Sorry dropd but.... it WAS pretty terrible).



And some new stuff.

I'm going to start a thread on my group's forum to see if we can talk out how to speed up rounds. They are getting kind of ridiculous, really. Do people have any suggestions for this? The big time-eaters seem to be people rolling lots and lots and lots of hits -- the paladin and ranger/rogue, especially, but also the summoning druid. This isn't their fault really, it's kinda how those types play at high levels. BUT it's making battles long and tedious for everyone.

Also, do you think I could take a non-spellcasting PrC during epic and not lose all my power? I would still be pretty effective with buffing and healing, right? My DM is steering me toward Legendary Captain, but I'm nervous.

Also, I added pictures to the first post. Because pictures are awesome.

Nohwl
2010-04-29, 10:12 AM
set a time limit on how long each person has to do something.
roll all attacks at the same time, then roll all damage at the same time.
any damage over like 20d whatever, just take average damage and don't roll for it.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-29, 10:17 AM
Also, I added pictures to the first post. Because pictures are awesome.Wow. Just...wow. You're good.

Ever thought about drawing a webcomic? Like, for me?

tyckspoon
2010-04-29, 10:22 AM
F
I'm going to start a thread on my group's forum to see if we can talk out how to speed up rounds. They are getting kind of ridiculous, really. Do people have any suggestions for this? The big time-eaters seem to be people rolling lots and lots and lots of hits -- the paladin and ranger/rogue, especially, but also the summoning druid. This isn't their fault really, it's kinda how those types play at high levels. BUT it's making battles long and tedious for everyone.

Also, do you think I could take a non-spellcasting PrC during epic and not lose all my power? I would still be pretty effective with buffing and healing, right? My DM is steering me toward Legendary Captain, but I'm nervous.

Also, I added pictures to the first post. Because pictures are awesome.

Assuming your group trusts each other, pre-rolling is probably the best option for those who have those 8+ attack sequences. Get some pens and notepads, have them roll out their next round's attacks (and damage, assuming a hit) and then when they come up everything is pre-figured and they can just call out the numbers instead of rolling everything right there, calling their to-hit, being reminded of a buff, refiguring all the bonuses again..

As PrCs go, you can safely take pretty much whatever you want. Epic spell progression is done entirely through feats, which are class-independent; as long as you acquire appropriate items/feats to keep your caster level relevant you'll be fine (and it doesn't take too much of those, as even high-level spells tend to be capped at about CL 25.) Epic is actually a really good time to take Hierophant if you've ever been considering it; you don't suffer from the doesn't-actually-advance-spellcasting thing, and Divine Reach/Spell-Like Ability (Miracle->2 Miracles? Yes plox)/ Spell Power are all handy abilities.

Greenish
2010-04-29, 10:28 AM
Blasting: I do enjoy blasting, and actually have a few of the mentioned spells (Dragonbreath and Cometfall) on my list and USE them. Unfortunately, our battles are sometimes really squeezed into a tight space and I end up hitting teammates as well. I'll look more at these.Sculpt Spell is just +1 metamagic and means you don't have to worry about hitting your allies. Complete Arcane.



I really like this idea. Although I'm wondering how I could do this when our most frequent battlefields are on a ship's deck (please don't ask me to wreck my ship ;_;), underwater, and in the middle of large cities.Don't think of it as killing innocent people, think of it as… collateral damage. :smallcool:


[Edit]: Nice pictures by the way, but that'd better be glamered full plate.

shimmercat
2010-04-29, 10:53 AM
Wow. Just...wow. You're good.

Ever thought about drawing a webcomic? Like, for me?

Psssssssssh do you realize how long that group shot took me? Like 12 hours. I'm about the slowest artist EVER. Thank you, though! <3

Tyckspoon, those are really really good ideas and I will bring them up to the group. Also, it's good to know that I can take a non-caster class now, without worrying too much about becoming even MORE useless. I'll look at Hierophant. Might also be willing to dip again into Rogue for Evasion, or into Ninja and drop my armor completely. Also, Legendary Captain, like my DM suggests. (Leadership WHOA)

Greenish: On my character? He wears Celestial Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#celestialArmor). He's got a +7 Dex mod, after all. And he's claustrophobic, anyway, so I think putting on full plate would make him freak the f out.

I'm going to look into metamagic rods, I think.

lsfreak
2010-04-29, 11:23 AM
If it's available, something to consider would be Psychic Reformation (in the SRD). You can access it via Miracle without any problems, provided psionics exists. It'll let you drain some XP for the ability to rechoose your feats, if there's something else you'd rather have (like Sculpt Spell, for example, for making sure your allies aren't in the way of blasts/battlefield control).

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-29, 11:26 AM
Psssssssssh do you realize how long that group shot took me? Like 12 hours. I'm about the slowest artist EVER. Thank you, though! <3I've been looking for someone who's wanting to sharpen their already excellent artist skills, who is into fantasy, and is comfortable with the occasional LBGT relationship (generally PG13)...

...and I haven't heard the word 'no' yet. :smalltongue:

shimmercat
2010-04-29, 11:42 AM
Well, I am definitely cool with LBGT, but I really don't have the time to devote to a project like that right now. Plus, all I've posted have been character portraits. I'm not so good at scenes. So that's a "no." XD Sorry. I'm really flattered, though!

Eldariel
2010-04-29, 11:48 AM
You...guess I'll echo Lycan here, you have a way with the pencil. Nice pictures there. I think WoTC should hire you for character illustrations. :smallbiggrin:

Cogidubnus
2010-04-29, 12:07 PM
It does seem you just need a way to deal damage, as you don't want to be just buffing or summoning. I'd go with self-buffs like've been suggested and blasting if you want to be involved without treading on other people's toes. Or, look at http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140278 (I've been advertising this like mad since I found it XD). Might make a good dip to improve your combat effectiveness, I don't know.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-29, 12:10 PM
It does seem you just need a way to deal damage, as you don't want to be just buffing or summoning. I'd go with self-buffs like've been suggested and blasting if you want to be involved without treading on other people's toes. Or, look at http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140278 (I've been advertising this like mad since I found it XD). Might make a good dip to improve your combat effectiveness, I don't know.

Summoning IS a way to deal damage, lol.

Doc Roc
2010-04-29, 12:16 PM
So your solution is not the many good solutions offered and is instead a completely different class that is in fact homebrew?

Shimmercat, how about you lay out a concept, quickly, and we can talk you through execution?

Cogidubnus
2010-04-29, 12:19 PM
True. But not one that's wanted here.

Doc Roc
2010-04-29, 12:20 PM
True. But not one that's wanted here.

My confusion, it is layered thick.

Cogidubnus
2010-04-29, 12:23 PM
That was in reply to the comment made before yours.

Glimbur
2010-04-29, 12:24 PM
My confusion, it is layered thick.

Cog was not replying to you, but to the post above you.

Concept -> mechanics seems like a solid way to go here.

monkey3
2010-04-29, 12:34 PM
You call yourself a worshiper of Behemoth? You should be ashamed ;)

Behemoth 's domains are good, magic, scaly kind, knowledge, life, healing. It looks like your house-rules are flexible enough to let you take any domains you want. It would be a very easy stretch to ask your DM to swap one of your domains for "scaly kind."

If my memory serves me right, it's 9th level spell will let you Shapechange into a dragon. Now cast your Codzilla spells to give yourself 21 BAB, and other stats, and go make your god proud.

Don't come back here until you've killed 10 evil dragons while Shapechanged into a Gold dragon.

shimmercat
2010-04-29, 12:52 PM
Hmmm, what do you mean by "concept"? Like what I would do in a particular battle, or...?

What I'm thinking currently is remain a full caster, and don't fudge too much with that. I'm going to retcon one feat for a metamagic feat (any suggestions on which one would be the most useful?). I have Prophesy's Shaper, which allows me to Empower one spell a level on the fly without any adjustments to casting time or spell level. If people think I could get better use out of this feat some other way, I may be able to sub it out as well, for a total of two metamagic feats I can take just like that. I MAY be able to be convinced to get rid of Ship's Mage (it's really nice that I don't damage my ship, and the +1 caster level doesn't hurt), if someone can talk me into it. That would mean THREE metamagic feats.

In battle, I'm looking at keeping my Prophesy's Shepard, which allows me to cast one cure spell a round as a swift action and thus frees up my turns if only mild healing is needed. I'm still going to be required to occasionally drop everything and Heal/Mass Heal, but that's part of the fate of the cleric. This has been a part of this character for a long time, and it works well.

I really like the idea of battlefield control, but I'm not sure how to do it when the most common battlefields are ship's decks, underwater, and large cities. Charming spells were mentioned, and would be VERY much this character's style. He's a charmer. ("Hey Fraulein... (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v70/shimmercat/DiederSmarmy.gif)")

Buffing is also an option. One big spell, that I always cast, would be best. We get in a lot of surprise battles, so usually spending lots of time preparing isn't possible, but I could definitely use one big spell. Would prefer this spell to be something without a set range, as the melee fighters tend to get into the thick of things and the casters stand back (of course).

I enjoy damage casting, even though I KNOW it is not the most powerful thing I could be doing. I'm also interested in Save or Suck spells. The problem with both of these is overcoming SR and saves.

As far as the future, I'm looking at lots of different classes, including Epic Cleric, Epic Contemplative, High Proselytizer, Legendary Captain, Hierophant, Rogue, and Ninja. Haven't a clue which one I'm going to go for, though. XD

I think I've made it pretty clear that you don't touch my Leadership/Epic Leadership. XD These things are holy. And have a lot of plot stuff tied into them.

Is that what you meant by "concept?"


monkey3 -- Bahamut's domains aren't FLEXIBLE, this is a homebrewed version of Bahamut (http://osvechnih.wikidot.com/bahamut).

monkey3
2010-04-29, 12:58 PM
monkey3 -- Bahamut's domains aren't FLEXIBLE, this is a homebrewed version of Bahamut (http://osvechnih.wikidot.com/bahamut).

So there is no flexibility to take any of the following domains: Animal, Scaly Kind, Transmutation? It seems very appropriate for a dragon worshiper to change into a dragon and go around claw/claw/biting enemies.

shimmercat
2010-04-29, 01:02 PM
So there is no flexibility to take any of the following domains: Animal, Scaly Kind, Transmutation? It seems very appropriate for a dragon worshiper to change into a dragon and go around claw/claw/biting enemies.

I agree, but I know my DM and there is no way that's gonna fly. I'll talk to him, but I seriously doubt that he would change Bahamut's domains.

I am basically planning to make an epic spell that turns me into a dragon, when I eventually get around to epic spellcasting.

Cogidubnus
2010-04-29, 01:02 PM
Ooh. Quite an amusing idea. Wreck enemy ships by making a wall of stone 5' wide and x feet high, and they sail right into it. If it was angled so the 5' was its depth and the ship was hitting the narrow bit, it might bite straight through the hull, in shallow water. Not massively practical, just amusing.

druid91
2010-04-29, 01:08 PM
wall of stone needs to be rooted in stone IIRC. Since this is a partly naval campaign try punching holes in the bottom of enemy ships, Do clerics get wood shape? if the do use that, if not just go down there and brute force blast a hole.
as for cities use wall of stone and do things to undermine nearby builings, causing some property damage and a rain of roofing tiles or masonry bricks on your enemies.

tyckspoon
2010-04-29, 01:18 PM
Quicken Spell is probably your best general-use metamagic, especially if you don't already have something else to use your Swift actions on. If you want to trade a second feat, consider Divine Spell Power for converting Turn Undead uses into caster level boosts; it's not too hard to rig that roll so you're guaranteed a benefit and will usually be getting +3 or +4. Just look for items to pick up that increase your turning check roll.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-29, 01:20 PM
Walls of Force in front of boats is quite effective, as is Walls of Iron, and the like.

Dust of dryness can also be fun, in large quantities.

druid91
2010-04-29, 01:28 PM
there is a spell in sandstorm called creat/destroy water, I can't remember if it was available to clerics though, With my druid I could kill a ship with that, I could basically make a huge cube of water dissapear from under the front of the ship, causing an almost certain capsize.

shimmercat
2010-04-29, 01:51 PM
We actually fight very few naval battles, as the DM decided that the naval rules were more tedious than useful. These are all cute ideas, but not things I'm likely to ever use. Usually if we want a ship taken out, an Elemental Monolith does the job for us. Or the battleship that the Rogue/Ranger captains.

I actually do use my swift actions -- Curing using Prophesy's Shaper. Quicken Spell may not be stupid, but I may get more use out of a different metamagic feat.

jiriku
2010-04-29, 02:11 PM
What I'm thinking currently is remain a full caster, and don't fudge too much with that. I'm going to retcon one feat for a metamagic feat (any suggestions on which one would be the most useful?). I have Prophesy's Shaper, which allows me to Empower one spell a level on the fly without any adjustments to casting time or spell level. If people think I could get better use out of this feat some other way, I may be able to sub it out as well, for a total of two metamagic feats I can take just like that. In battle, I'm looking at keeping my Prophesy's Shepard, which allows me to cast one cure spell a round as a swift action and thus frees up my turns if only mild healing is needed. I'm still going to be required to occasionally drop everything and Heal/Mass Heal, but that's part of the fate of the cleric. This has been a part of this character for a long time, and it works well.

What are your other feats? You only listed six but your character should have nine.

You could replace Prophecy's Shaper with Sudden Maximize. It's essentially the same thing, but you get a free maximize instead of a free empower. For my money, Prophecy's Shephard is a good feat, but you've outgrown it. At epic levels, cure spells don't adequately address your healing needs. Dump it for quicken spell, and prepare a variety of quickened spells so you can cast two spells a round every round, even when healing isn't needed. At your level, quicken is especially useful for the many solid low-level buffs in Spell Compendium.

If you need a higher caster level, Divine Spellpower + Heighten Turning will guarantee you +4 CL every time.

Divine Metamagic + Persistent Spell is widely respected for its effectiveness, but requires considerable investment in feats and wealth. It may be out of your comfort zone.

For healing, take a look at the cleric spells in Complete Champion. There are a number of spells there that allow you to essentially pre-cast a heal when entering a dangerous area, and then when a fight breaks out ten or twenty minutes later, you've already got healing spells lying about ready to go. Many of these spells also let the person receiving the heal use their action to activate it, meaning you can heal more per round - your available actions are no longer the chokepoint determining how much healing you can perform in a round.

Also look at fortunate fate (SpC), which is essentially a heal spell activated via contingency, which you can place on others. For that matter, use miracle to cast contingency on yourself and prepare a personal-range emanation buff (righteous wrath of the faithful, perhaps?) or AoE healing effect as the contingent spell. the concept here is to be generating effects in combat that were activated with actions outside of combat.

Also consider the Augment Healing feat. It's a good feat for cure spells and the like, but it really comes into its own when casting heal-over-time magics - it can double or triple the healing generated by these spells.

avr
2010-04-29, 05:07 PM
You mentioned somewhere back there that you were spending standard actions to get flight. Don't do this. Get always-on flight, there's several ways.

Doc Roc
2010-04-29, 05:14 PM
You mentioned somewhere back there that you were spending standard actions to get flight. Don't do this. Get always-on flight, there's several ways.

My favorite is the Fiendish Graft (Wings) from Fiend Folio. You should be able to auto-pass the related will-saves.

shimmercat
2010-04-29, 05:39 PM
My favorite way is bug my DM until he lets it be part of my capstone for the Contemplative PrC. 8D Because really, it's a small thing that means a lot to me, and makes sense because I'm turning into an angel. (And yes, I know that that ability does not make the character an outsider as written. Given some plot events, it DID make me an outsider in this game. It was actually super-important that it changed my creature type.)

Dingle
2010-04-29, 05:56 PM
you can have control weather up 24/7, handy for naval battles to always have the weather in your favour(especially with good divination). You could keep it just rough enough that the helmsman has a hard time. (yay for level appropriate encounters, he might get to a decent level in soon enough). your opponents should be at a disadvantage if you're used to fighting in a hurricane and they're not. they might not even be able to fly or move tactically (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/weather.htm#powerfulStorms).

the main caster roles that you don't mind doing seem to be debuff and battlefield control.
Unfortunately, the SRD doesn't have much for clerics in those categories.
anyone know any good ones from other sources?

lsfreak
2010-04-29, 06:09 PM
One of the best ways to 'blast' might actually be to use Miracle to emulate wizard spells. Just because they're better at blasting. Once you get Epic Spellcasting, go in and make yourself some epic spells that then emulate some of the better wizard blasting spells (hopefully with a good number of reducers, since they money will quickly and painfully add up).

Some cleric spells that might be interesting:
Blood to Water (SpC) - 2d6Con, Fort does half rather than negating, to up to 5 creatures
Fire Storm (PHB) Shapeable, huge-area fire damage (you get up to 42 10-foot cubes at your level), hopefully with NO risk of setting your boat on fire (specifically says *creatures* take damage)
Greater Dispel Magic, combined with Divine Defiance from Fiendish Codex 2. Burn an immediate action and a Turn Undead attempt in order to counterspell without redying an action.
Wall of Magma (Sandstorm) - Like Wall of Fire, but better. Probably not the best, though considering you fight on a boat or in the city.
Mark of Doom (PHB2) - Target takes 1d6dmg per hostile act. Combine with Chain metamagic so that 21 creatures all take 1d6 damage per hostile act. No save, which is good for you (especially with the normal -4 save on Chain), and no SR either.

If BoED is available, we've got interesting things like
End to Strife - everyone within 80 feet of you takes 20d6 damage (nonlethal, if you wish) damage per attack
Heaven's Trumpet - All enemies in 120 make a save or be paralyzed
Righteous Smite - 20d6 damage in an area plus blinding, with half damage to neutral creatures and none to good creatures

Optimator
2010-04-29, 06:29 PM
As far as blasting goes, I've always liked Fire Storm for clerics. It's so easy to shape. Also, Clerics get Destruction, Implosion, Finger of Death, even Slime Wave. With options like these plus the rest of the Cleric list along with taking a fantastic PrC, I don't see how you could be suffering--you should be dominating. I can only assume the whole problem is spell selection.

nedz
2010-04-29, 06:42 PM
You have Leadership, do you have a Cohort ?

If you do it hasn't been mentioned.

Try creating a cohort that you would enjoy playing and put your main character out to be the Buffbot/Healbot. Cohort ought to be something like 19th level.

Alternatively start a new game.
I say this because you all seem overwealmed with the mechanics (which I fully understand), high level play can be a hard grind, and you are all role-players anyway. Throw away the spread sheets and go back to playing characters perhaps?

If you are all set on playing your first epic game then you really have to do epic stuff. I'm not sure what to suggest here, it depends upon why you want to play at this level.

Just a few ideas for you to throw in the bin :smallsmile:

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-29, 07:45 PM
I suggest swapping out something for 3 feats: Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell), and Chain Spell.

This'll let you really save on the turn undead attempts, since you can Persist-buff the entire party easily.

Also, Extend Spell lets you double the buffs you have up on any given day (since they last 48 hours each). Metamagic rod it, if need be.

Also also, grab Quicken rods, Empower rods, and Maximize rods, as well.

dspeyer
2010-04-29, 08:35 PM
I really like this idea. Although I'm wondering how I could do this when our most frequent battlefields are on a ship's deck (please don't ask me to wreck my ship ;_;), underwater, and in the middle of large cities.

Flipping through spell lists for inspiration....

Animate object on doors, walls, floors...
Cold snap might be able to generate icebergs, depending on original temperature and salinity.
Planar bubble, combined with summon monster, can manipulate time, gravity, temperature...
Stone shape can probably find material in cities.
Wall of alignment could give your party a lot more mobility that your enemies.
Wall of dispel magic could be powerful against the right enemy (especially since it's invisible).

The Sor/Wiz list is better. You might look for a way to get access to things like wall of force. If nothing else, pray for them and see what happens.

Fizban
2010-04-29, 11:24 PM
Brilliant Aura used to be an aura around you, but the Spell Compendium rewrite changed it so that you just need everyone within 30' of each other when you first cast it. If you fight lots of armored enemies, it's probably your best bet for a buff you always cast. For bonus points: your gun now shoots bullets made of light, you have a laser gun. If you aren't fighting armored enemies, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful is probably your best bet, being a Haste with attack and damage bonus. It also just needs everyone within 30' at the start of the battle, so for either spell just tell the melee characters to wait until you cast before running off.

I agree that you should start bringing Mass Heal for your healing needs, since it has range, heals more, and will heal multiple people with one action.

For flight, I would suggest buying a Ring of Solar Wings from the Book of Exalted Deeds. It costs around 120,000gp, a hefty sum, but it will let you keep up with the Druid and makes you look quite angelic by literally giving you solar wings. Your DM could fluff it as a gift from the heavens in reward for furthering the cause of good.

For spell DCs, another poster already mentioned Owl's Insight, which the Druid could cast on you, or you could Miracle up (possibly with an increased duration), giving you an extra +5 or more to your spell DCs. If you choose to focus on save or lose, I think the best spell mentioned so far is Heaven's Trumpet (Book of Exalted Deeds).

I would keep Prophecy's Shaper, and go with direct damage when you're not healing. Fire Storm is shapeable, in 10' cubes. If you turn the cubes on their corners, you can pick single targets out of the crowd without harming your allies. Radiant Assault (Spell Compendium) bypasses evasion with it's will save, deals untyped damage, and dazes on a failed save: an excellent direct damage spell. At 7th level, it shouldn't interfere with Heal, Mass Heal, Brilliant Aura, Fire Storm, or Righteous Wrath of the Faithful. Bolt of Glory already deals excellent damage against evil outsiders (if you fight them anyway), and would just get better with a free empower spell. Lucent Lance deals damage and blinds for 1 round with no save, and also affects creatures as if they were in bright light for a round (so Shadows and Vampires will have serious isues).

In addition to Prophecy's Shaper, I'd pick up a Rod of Maximize Spell, normal or greater. While Quicken is the standard, you can only empower one spell per round with Prophecy's Shaper, so I'd make it count and Maximize it with a rod too. A Maximized Empowered Radiant Assault at CL20 will deal 120+10d6 (avg 155) and daze for one round if they fail their will save, which sounds pretty good to me.

So, in sum, my suggestions are: buy a Ring of Solar Wings and a Rod of Maximize Spell (greater). Prepare Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Lucent Lance, Brilliant Aura, Fire Storm, and Mass Heal in your 5th-9th level slots, aside from whatever utility you need. At the start of combat, cast Wrath or Brilliant Aura depending on which would be more useful, then activate your prophetic trance and alternate healing with Mass Heal and blasting with whichever spell is most appropriate for the situation, using your rod of Maximize to help kill primary targets faster.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-29, 11:31 PM
I would keep Prophecy's ShaperI wouldn't. A few metamagic rods are much less costly than a feat.

Icewraith
2010-04-29, 11:42 PM
Don't forget flamestrike! Guaranteed damage even if the opponent makes their save! Unfortunately the damage caps at 15d6, but it's guaranteed area of effect damage.

Fizban
2010-04-29, 11:43 PM
I wouldn't. A few metamagic rods are much less costly than a feat.

She can use the feat with the rod, getting free use of two feats at once instead of just one. The decent cleric damage, or save or lose spells, are all higher level, and applying any more metamagic without a cost reduction will cut into uses of things like Mass Heal, which the party has become accustomed to having available all the time. Unless she retrains for Divine Metamagic to get a cost reduction, Prophecy's Shaper is more effective for empowering, and will stack with still more metamagic rods.

Oh, and while I'm thinking about it: you cold get a normal Rod of Maximize for 6th level spells as well for cheap.

Edit:

Don't forget flamestrike! Guaranteed damage even if the opponent makes their save! Unfortunately the damage caps at 15d6, but it's guaranteed area of effect damage.
I'm not sure what you're talking about. It's vulnerable to evasion just like any other reflex save spell, is capped at lower damage than Fire Storm, and only half of it's damage penetrates fire resistance. Radiant Assault or Lucent Lance is much better, dealing untyped damage and either dazing or blinding at the same time (of course they're both higher level spells as well).

Eldariel
2010-04-29, 11:44 PM
Don't forget flamestrike! Guaranteed damage even if the opponent makes their save! Unfortunately the damage caps at 15d6, but it's guaranteed area of effect damage.

It's...pretty minor compared to what a Cleric can do in melee, and if her save DCs and SR are a problem, it's even worse than that. Blade Barrier is a hundred times better spell hitting multiple times from only one level higher slot, but it isn't amazing either.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-29, 11:45 PM
There is a feat that uncaps your spells (so 21d6 flamestrikes), but I'm not sure if it's arcanist only, or what its name is...

Fizban
2010-04-29, 11:47 PM
There is a feat that uncaps your spells (so 21d6 flamestrikes), but I'm not sure if it's arcanist only, or what its name is...

There's a metamagic feat for +7 levels that does that in the Warcraft setting books, and a horribly broken general feat that let's you break the cap by a few dice in the main Dragonlance book. I don't think there's one in the main WoTC books.

Doc Roc
2010-04-29, 11:47 PM
Reserves of Strength. We don't... like to talk about it. The Dragonlance book it is from is a WotC core product, so it's normally allowed.

taltamir
2010-04-29, 11:49 PM
a flying healbot? talk about a self inflicted hell...
OP, you say that DM and Druid are very excited about epic magic... and the druid summons etc... It seems like you are intentionally limiting yourself to a specific role which you find boring and distasteful, and you actively refuse to use the great powers that your class gives you because you think that would be bad roleplaying. (apparently you wish to roleplay a flying healbot who feels useless)

Your conundrum is psychological. Your first step is to decide that you don't have to be useless to roleplay. This doesn't mean breaking your vow of not killing humanoids, it just means using your god given powers effectively.
You can role play it by taking advice from an experienced war cleric and utilizing the tactics he taught you in combat.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0

another thing... you have access to 9th level cleric spells... you can cast miracle:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/Miracle.htm

Miracle only costs XP for some things it does... duplicating ANY spell of ANY class of level 7 and below costs no XP.

Eldariel
2010-04-29, 11:54 PM
Reserves of Strength. We don't... like to talk about it. The Dragonlance book it is from is a WotC core product, so it's normally allowed.

We have also had disagreements in the past about the exact RAW functioning of the feat (specifically, whether the wording means uncapped exceeding or exceeding by the number the feat boosts, that is 3) and it's overall a...problematic little number.

Doc Roc
2010-04-30, 12:09 AM
We have also had disagreements in the past about the exact RAW functioning of the feat (specifically, whether the wording means uncapped exceeding or exceeding by the number the feat boosts, that is 3) and it's overall a...problematic little number.

A true statement in all respects.

Prodan
2010-04-30, 12:10 AM
Even the least broken interpretation of the feat is still incredibly broken.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-30, 12:14 AM
Is it just my imagination, or are the rogue and barbarian both pointing at Dieder's crotch?

He's bi, eh? Well, that does explain the picture, I guess.

aberratio ictus
2010-04-30, 06:41 AM
If anything, they're pointing at the air druid's crotch.
Although to me, it more looks like the barbarian at least is pointing in the direction of the rogue.

Vizzerdrix
2010-04-30, 07:27 AM
I recommend a merciful weapon so you can step out of the healer role without breaking your fluff choices. Better to clout the louts now so you can preach peace to them later.

shimmercat
2010-05-03, 10:21 PM
Psshh, the barbarian and the rogue are pointing at EACH OTHER. C'mon guys. What sort of person do you think I am? :smallbiggrin:

Everyone, thank you SO MUCH for your help. I'm starting to look over the spell list and do some tweaking, and I've talked a lot to the DM and figured out what I can and can't do.

Still deciding on feat selection.

I AM switching out Good Domain for Dragon Domain. That got okayed. My flight (found out I'm gonna have fly 150 clumsy with big ol' wings) also got okayed. :smallbiggrin: Of course looking to improve the maneuverability on that. May end up taking some monster feats or something.

Working on the spell list. I was going to type up my notes so that people could see them, but they don't make a whole lot of sense unless you are familiar with the old list. I'm hoping to post up the old one and the new one once I'm done. I'm planning on working on it tomorrow; we'll see how far I get.

Saving up for a bunch of metamagic wands (I currently have 3,500 gold to my name. I had just spent close to 300,000 gp.)

Am definitely without a shadow of a doubt taking Epic Spellcasting at 24th level. I'm now locked in with plot stuff. So. XD

The DM is recommending that I play up the dragon stuff, and I think I am going to do that. I definitely have plans to make dragon transformation/summoning spells when I have Epic Spellcasting. The dragon connection is really a large part of what makes Dieder SPECIAL (in this world, he's basically unique -- the ONLY other clerics of Bahamut in the entire world are Dieder's followers) and so playing it up should be fun and interesting. I hadn't done it before because mechanically, it's not that easy for clerics to play with dragon stuff. But I'm gonna make it work.

Also, we have a house rule of we are not allowed to use books that we don't own, unless you have permission for ever. little. thing. you take from the book. So I'm considering scraping together the money for Spell Compendium at Half Price Books. Because otherwise, this is going to be a pain in the butt. XD

Again, thank you everyone!

Sophismata
2010-05-03, 11:24 PM
Even the least broken interpretation of the feat is still incredibly broken.

An extra 3d6 damage is that broken?

Prodan
2010-05-03, 11:25 PM
An extra 3d6 damage is that broken?

What if you applied the feat to Shapechange?

Doc Roc
2010-05-03, 11:59 PM
An extra 3d6 damage is that broken?

Consider that metamagic may turn that into an extra 12 or 15 d 6. And that's considering only damage spells.
Twinned Admixtured Empowered (from spellshard) Combust, with arcane thesis

4 x 19d8

instead of

4 x 15d8

Sophismata
2010-05-04, 12:56 AM
Consider that metamagic may turn that into an extra 12 or 15 d 6. And that's considering only damage spells.
Twinned Admixtured Empowered (from spellshard) Combust, with arcane thesis

4 x 19d8

instead of

4 x 15d8

I'd argue that if that's a problem, then it lies more with stacking metamagic reducers, than it does with anything else.

As it stands, though, 72 extra damage is a drop in the bucket compared with other things you could be doing. Like repeating that spell, instead. Or enervating it. Or casting gate. And so on...

Doc Roc
2010-05-04, 01:02 AM
Actually, I'm using only one MM reducer, and a 6k item.

As for repeat, yes, with a trivial bit of effort I could tuck repeat in there.
Let's presume that we're dealing with a residual magic user, shall we?

Spellflower
VVVVVV
Twinned Admixtured Empowered (from shard) Combust
with Reserves of Strength && Arcane thesis
VVVVVV
Repeated Twinned (Via Residual) Admixtured Empowered (from shard) Combust

taltamir
2010-05-04, 02:46 AM
I'd argue that if that's a problem, then it lies more with stacking metamagic reducers, than it does with anything else.

As it stands, though, 72 extra damage is a drop in the bucket compared with other things you could be doing. Like repeating that spell, instead. Or enervating it. Or casting gate. And so on...

I agree... anything is broken if you stack metamagic reducers... Its the meta reducers that are broken, not the feat.

It is also a total waste of meta reducers to be used in that way anyways... If you have them there are other ways to ascend.

Doc Roc
2010-05-04, 02:54 AM
I agree... anything is broken if you stack metamagic reducers... Its the meta reducers that are broken, not the feat.

It is also a total waste of meta reducers to be used in that way anyways... If you have them there are other ways to ascend.

I'm using a single reducer, and an item, in that first example, and supplying a minimal example. Reserves of strength also affects things like planar binding, even in the basic reading where it only increases CL caps and only by 3. If you'd like, I can provide additional and more harrowing demonstrations.

taltamir
2010-05-04, 02:57 AM
I'm using a single reducer, and an item, in that example, and supplying a minimal example. Reserves of strength also affects things like planar binding, even in the basic reading where it only increases CL caps and only by 3. If you'd like, I can provide additional and more harrowing demonstrations.

that is a better example actually. I am just saying that if you are going to give examples of why a feat is broken, it shouldn't be meta reducers stacking with it.

Doc Roc
2010-05-04, 02:59 AM
that is a better example actually. I am just saying that if you are going to give examples of why a feat is broken, it shouldn't be meta reducers stacking with it.

It also affects alter self. I did say this before offering a damage example.

Prodan
2010-05-04, 03:14 AM
that is a better example actually. I am just saying that if you are going to give examples of why a feat is broken, it shouldn't be meta reducers stacking with it.

I'll say it again. Shapechange.

Doc Roc
2010-05-04, 03:22 AM
I'll say it again. Shapechange.

In some senses, I think alter self is a better example, because it comes online so much sooner. Shapechange though. I mean it really hurts your head, or should. I think that feat is a superb litmus test of an optimizer. If you flinch, you understand the game.

It's like the opposite of a gom jabbar.