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The Rabbler
2010-04-28, 09:24 PM
bloodlines. these look rediculous. I showed my DM and he okay'd using them in a campaign. I have a few questions as to how these could break our game.

one: the titan bloodline ability Use Oversized Weapon. by getting this, couldn't you effectively use a gargantuan warhammer and base your weapon damage off 4d6? lets say you start with a greatsword. using strongarm bracers, that'd get you to 3d6. then you get the ability and you can suddenly use a 4d6 warhammer and, with strongarm bracers, you could pick up one size larger. then you get sizing on it and pile up the size-enhancing buffs to get you a colossal++ weapon. please tell me this does not work. also: would weapon aptitude work with this or is that strictly feat-only?

two: it was mentioned somewhere these are free levels. Is this referring to the way that abilities get gained over time despite not actually having to take more than 3 levels in the bloodline?

three: someone brought up that this could get you 9th level maneuvers by level 12. how does that work?

Starbuck_II
2010-04-28, 09:49 PM
bloodlines. these look rediculous. I showed my DM and he okay'd using them in a campaign. I have a few questions as to how these could break our game.

one: the titan bloodline ability Use Oversized Weapon. by getting this, couldn't you effectively use a gargantuan warhammer and base your weapon damage off 4d6?

Nope. It doesn't explain that you can weield gargantuan weapons. It says you can wield a gargantuan warhammer (just like the titan). So that is all you can wield.


two: it was mentioned somewhere these are free levels. Is this referring to the way that abilities get gained over time despite not actually having to take more than 3 levels in the bloodline?

The SRD mentions why they sound like free levels:

Although, RAW agrees that they are free. I feel bad about abusing RAW like this.


Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does...

If they do not increase your level than you are still same XP total meaning you can take another level in it or something else.

It is somewhat a silly fact, but yeah, they are free levels.

The Cat Goddess
2010-04-28, 10:05 PM
Nope. It doesn't explain that you can weield gargantuan weapons. It says you can wield a gargantuan warhammer (just like the titan). So that is all you can wield.

The SRD mentions why they sound like free levels:

Although, RAW agrees that they are free. I feel bad about abusing RAW like this.

If they do not increase your level than you are still same XP total meaning you can take another level in it or something else.

It is somewhat a silly fact, but yeah, they are free levels.

I'm sorry, but that is not RAW. That is "taking a line out of context".

If you're a Fighter with a Titan Bloodline, you take levels like so:

1. Fighter, 2. Fighter, 3. Bloodline, 4. Fighter, 5. Fighter, 6. Bloodline, 7. Fighter, 8. Fighter, 9. Fighter, 10. Fighter, 11. Fighter, 12. Bloodline, 13+. Fighter.

You Do Not get to take 3. Bloodline and then take 3. Fighter.

A Generous DM might let you buy off the levels like ECL (which is reasonable, given the benefits are similar to ECL... just spread out over 20 levels).

The advantage comes in a Bloodline level (actual level spent on Bloodline, not level you get a bonus from your Bloodline) counts as a level for level-dependent abilities.

So a level 13 Wizard with 3 bloodline levels (as the Fighter example above) would have spells as a level 10 Wizard, but have a Caster Level of 13.

If you had 2 Monk levels, 2 Rogue levels, 2 Wizard levels, 2 Cleric levels, 2 Swordsage levels and 3 bloodline levels, you would have a caster level of 5 for Wizard & Cleric, have 3d6 backstab (as a 5th level rogue), have unarmed damage, AC bonus & movement bonus as a 5th level Monk and qualify for maneuvers as if you were a 9th level Swordsage (1/2 of non-Swordsage levels (4) + Swordsage levels (2) + Bloodline levels (3) = 9 )

Doc Roc
2010-04-28, 10:24 PM
CG is correct, and this is the ruling that I have seen used through-out the serious optimization community. Ain't no rest for the wicked, power don't grow on trees.

The Shadowmind
2010-04-28, 10:28 PM
While bloodlines can be used to make broken things, it seems there more intended focus or better use is to make multiclassing less painful.

Mongoose87
2010-04-28, 10:37 PM
I wish they'd just said something like "When you take a Bloodline level, you gain a one level increase in Level Adjustment." That would've made things so much simpler.

sofawall
2010-04-28, 10:40 PM
Ain't no rest for the wicked, power don't grow on trees.

You know I can't slow down, I can't hold back.

The Cat Goddess
2010-04-28, 10:41 PM
I wish they'd just said something like "When you take a Bloodline level, you gain a one level increase in Level Adjustment." That would've made things so much simpler.

Yes, it would.... but by RAW, you can't buy off Bloodline levels and you can buy off LA.

Of course, as I mentioned, many GMs will let you buy off Bloodline levels.

Some GMs will even give you 0+Con Mod hitpoints and 0+Int Mod skill points for your Bloodline levels... though by RAW, you don't get that.

Milskidasith
2010-04-28, 10:41 PM
You know I can't slow down, I can't hold back.

Oh there ain't no rest for the wicked
Until we close our books for good...

The Rabbler
2010-04-28, 10:45 PM
You know I can't slow down, I can't hold back.

though I wish I could. no, there aint no rest for the wicked, 'till we close our eyes for good.


anyway: with that ruling, it seems like bloodlines aren't very useful. if nothing that I brought up originally works, how are bloodlines any good/broken?

EDIT: song ninja'd

Tavar
2010-04-28, 10:47 PM
I think that there's some build that gets Ninth level manuevers in all disciplines ~level 12 using bloodlines, though I have no idea how it works.

Doc Roc
2010-04-28, 10:49 PM
Basically, it says:
well, each bloodline level is +1 to my effective level for class abilities.
these PrCs and classes all have class abilities that give me IL.
these are separate abilities and separate classes.
So each 1-dip in a PrC is a straight +4 to your IL.
Each dip in an initiator class is... well that part is debated.

but at the least.

Warblade 3/Bloodline 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Crusader 1/Bloodline 2/RkV1/Bloodclaw Master 1/Swordsage 2

5+6
+4
+4

I may be screwy on the specifics, it's been a LONG time since I built one of these. Almost 10 months.

Milskidasith
2010-04-28, 10:50 PM
I think that there's some build that gets Ninth level manuevers in all disciplines ~level 12 using bloodlines, though I have no idea how it works.

I think it was the fact that, by RAW, they advance per level stuff such as initiator levels, while at the same time since they aren't a martial class (technically) they give .5 IL per level because of that, so you get 1.5x progression.

EDIT: Or it could be that your IL gets quadrupled like Doc Roc said. He's the boss on this.

Rainbownaga
2010-04-28, 11:24 PM
Nope. It doesn't explain that you can weield gargantuan weapons. It says you can wield a gargantuan warhammer (just like the titan). So that is all you can wield.


Surely there is something wrong there. Anyone else imagining a titan-blooded gnome weilding a gargantuan warhammer? Just how big would it be? :smalleek:

Oh, and you still only get 5' range.

'K brain broken now.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-28, 11:25 PM
Surely there is something wrong there. Anyone else imagining a titan-blooded gnome weilding a gargantuan warhammer? Just how big would it be? :smalleek:

Oh, and you still only get 5' range.

'K brain broken now.Awakened gerbil.

Rainbownaga
2010-04-28, 11:38 PM
Awakened gerbil.

What I really pity is that gerbil's ancestor. :smallfrown:

Temotei
2010-04-28, 11:44 PM
power don't grow on trees.

This makes me want to homebrew a racial progression for trees. I don't know why.

sofawall
2010-04-28, 11:44 PM
Surely there is something wrong there. Anyone else imagining a titan-blooded gnome weilding a gargantuan warhammer? Just how big would it be? :smalleek:

Oh, and you still only get 5' range.

'K brain broken now.

That is the part that has always broken my brain.

"What do you mean my 25 ft. long Greatsword only has 5 ft. reach?"

The Rabbler
2010-04-29, 12:20 AM
Basically, it says:
well, each bloodline level is +1 to my effective level for class abilities.
these PrCs and classes all have class abilities that give me IL.
these are separate abilities and separate classes.
So each 1-dip in a PrC is a straight +4 to your IL.

... huh. that amounts to what I was expecting from bloodlines cheese-wise. this would leave a character pretty devoid of class features though (excluding the bloodline abilities).

anyway: assuming ToB is not being (ab)used, would bloodlines be considered useful for builds? and which bloodlines give the most useful abilities?

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-04-29, 02:25 AM
Welcome to the forums cat_goddess!

Some Reading (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7167.0)

PBMC out

Pluto
2010-04-29, 02:38 AM
anyway: assuming ToB is not being (ab)used, would bloodlines be considered useful for builds? and which bloodlines give the most useful abilities?
Any time you don't expect a campaign to hit level 12, there's no reason not to take one.

Doc Roc
2010-04-29, 03:33 AM
Welcome to the forums cat_goddess!

Some Reading (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7167.0)

PBMC out

I think, basically, that this is probably an overly specious reading of some text. Particularly given that by this reading, they are literally something for nothing, and to get to it, we must interpret some text out of context in a purely literalistic way. Unless I'm not following you, and what you mean is:

You are level 2.
You level up, and you take a blood line level.
You do not, in any sense, go up a level, and you now need the same experience all over again to hit 3.

Which could be read in there, but I think is probably still too generous in one's estimation of the authorial intent as Not Totally Crazy.

The Cat Goddess
2010-04-29, 03:45 AM
Welcome to the forums cat_goddess!

Some Reading (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7167.0)

PBMC out

So, you're saying that I would progress like so:

1. Fighter, 2. Fighter, 3. Bloodline, 3. Fighter, 4. Fighter, 5. Fighter, 6. Bloodline, 6. Fighter, etc.?

I would essentially buy the same character level twice... once for Bloodline and once for Class?

Sadly, that's not how the example is written, nor is it how the text is written. You are clearly doing poor rules-lawyering to essentially buy your LA (Bloodline) and not suffer any downside for having an LA (Bloodline).

Using your interpretation, anyone who doesn't buy a Major Bloodline is cheating themselves... because only 2 or 3 levels after buying a Bloodline level (thanks to lower level characters earning more XP from encounters than their higher level party members) you'll be pretty-much fully caught up with the rest of your party.

Doc Roc
2010-04-29, 03:59 AM
Worse, it explicitly breaks skill caps in your example, meaning that you literally have to be insane not to take them, because you can get into many PrCs up to three levels early.

Sub chord 2 at level 9 is not good news. I could do better, but why bother?

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-04-29, 06:16 AM
While on the subject of bloodlines, is it possible to take multiple bloodlines, assuming you pay all the levels? A player of mine wants to make a fire-elemental-ish character, and thought that taking both efreeti bloodline and fire elemental bloodline would fit the bill.

I'm not worried about power level (nothing would benefit from bloodline levels except for her CL, and I run a high-powered game anyway), and I don't see anything in the RAW limiting you to a single bloodline. If anything, I'd figure bloodlines are effectively separate 3-level classes like racial paragons that you can multiclass as normal--heck, if you can be two different kinds of half-dragon and three different kinds of half-elemental with the same character, two bloodlines isn't all that crazy. :smallwink:

Thoughts?

Amphetryon
2010-04-29, 06:27 AM
While on the subject of bloodlines, is it possible to take multiple bloodlines, assuming you pay all the levels? A player of mine wants to make a fire-elemental-ish character, and thought that taking both efreeti bloodline and fire elemental bloodline would fit the bill.

I'm not worried about power level (nothing would benefit from bloodline levels except for her CL, and I run a high-powered game anyway), and I don't see anything in the RAW limiting you to a single bloodline. If anything, I'd figure bloodlines are effectively separate 3-level classes like racial paragons that you can multiclass as normal--heck, if you can be two different kinds of half-dragon and three different kinds of half-elemental with the same character, two bloodlines isn't all that crazy. :smallwink:

Thoughts?
It's only an issue with specific cases, like Hellfire Warlock or such, where you can progress the dice beyond their normal caps in a non-epic environment. Otherwise, if you're cool with it, things should be fine.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-04-29, 06:36 AM
It's only an issue with specific cases, like Hellfire Warlock or such, where you can progress the dice beyond their normal caps in a non-epic environment. Otherwise, if you're cool with it, things should be fine.

If a player's cheesing it out with Hellfire Warlock or binder level stacking or something, obviously you'd want to veto it as a DM, but is there any RAW against it? Just want to make sure it's on firm ground rules-wise, whether or not I eventually end up rule-zeroing it anyway.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-29, 08:24 AM
I think, basically, that this is probably an overly specious reading of some text. Particularly given that by this reading, they are literally something for nothing, and to get to it, we must interpret some text out of context in a purely literalistic way. Unless I'm not following you, and what you mean is:

You are level 2.
You level up, and you take a blood line level.
You do not, in any sense, go up a level, and you now need the same experience all over again to hit 3.

Which could be read in there, but I think is probably still too generous in one's estimation of the authorial intent as Not Totally Crazy.

Yep, that was what I was saying. Even though that is RAW how it is worded, it feels like abusing RAW.

Optimystik
2010-04-29, 08:58 AM
Are these bloodlines the same as the sorcerer ones in Dragon Compendium? I see the two terms used a lot and get them confused often.

Flickerdart
2010-04-29, 09:06 AM
No, these are the Unearthed Arcana bloodlines.

The Cat Goddess
2010-04-29, 09:52 AM
If a player's cheesing it out with Hellfire Warlock or binder level stacking or something, obviously you'd want to veto it as a DM, but is there any RAW against it? Just want to make sure it's on firm ground rules-wise, whether or not I eventually end up rule-zeroing it anyway.

By RAW... no, there's nothing against taking 2 Major Bloodlines. More than that would cause the XP penalties to kick in, since you can't take 3 bloodline levels before you take your 4th character level (since level 1 obviously has to be a Class Level so you actually have hit points!).

Lamech
2010-04-29, 10:04 AM
So, you're saying that I would progress like so:

1. Fighter, 2. Fighter, 3. Bloodline, 3. Fighter, 4. Fighter, 5. Fighter, 6. Bloodline, 6. Fighter, etc.?

I would essentially buy the same character level twice... once for Bloodline and once for Class?Yeah basically, except you don't really buy levels, you level up when you hit the xp total. Which doesn't change if your ECL doesn't change.


Sadly, that's not how the example is written, nor is it how the text is written. You are clearly doing poor rules-lawyering to essentially buy your LA (Bloodline) and not suffer any downside for having an LA (Bloodline).

Using your interpretation, anyone who doesn't buy a Major Bloodline is cheating themselves... because only 2 or 3 levels after buying a Bloodline level (thanks to lower level characters earning more XP from encounters than their higher level party members) you'll be pretty-much fully caught up with the rest of your party.
Yeah, basically anyone who doesn't take a major bloodline screwed up somewhere. Bloodlines are 100% unblalanced.


Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does
That seems pretty clear to me. Bloodline levels are utterly borked.

Person_Man
2010-04-29, 10:10 AM
If a player's cheesing it out with Hellfire Warlock or binder level stacking or something, obviously you'd want to veto it as a DM, but is there any RAW against it? Just want to make sure it's on firm ground rules-wise, whether or not I eventually end up rule-zeroing it anyway.

If they're going to try double stacking Binder and Knight of the Sacred Seal levels to get vestiges early, then yes, you are correct. Rule 0 to the rescue.

But if they're playing in a high tier game, I see nothing wrong with a Binder 17/Bloodline 3 that that can use vestiges as a 20th level Binder.

They'd still be giving up all day supernatural Mind Blank, a bonus feat, a feat from levels, and 3 levels of Skills/hit points/Saves, plus your hit dice will always be a few levels behind (important for certain spells/feats/etc). Trading that away for a few of the Major Bloodlines would be a good deal, but not that big of a deal. Mind Blank > one Energy Immunity. 2 feats you can choose > 2 set bonus feats. And the rest of the stuff is pretty much a jumble of mediocre bonuses.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-04-29, 10:19 AM
If they're going to try double stacking Binder and Knight of the Sacred Seal levels to get vestiges early, then yes, you are correct. Rule 0 to the rescue.

But if they're playing in a high tier game, I see nothing wrong with a Binder 17/Bloodline 3 that that can use vestiges as a 20th level Binder.

The question is, would Binder 14/Bloodline A 3/Bloodline B 3 be legal? Binder 17/Bloodline 3 is unquestionably legal, and it seems the consensus is that Binder 14/Bloodline A 3/Bloodline B 3 is as well, provided that character isn't outshining everyone else.

Thanks for the opinions, folks.

JasonP
2010-04-29, 01:56 PM
But if I understand this right, Binder 17/Bloodline 3 could still gain xp until they hit Binder 20/Bloodline 3 without going epic, and if they were in an epic party would gain xp faster and almost catch up to the group because they are lower level.
Right?

JaronK
2010-04-29, 02:04 PM
If a player's cheesing it out with Hellfire Warlock or binder level stacking or something, obviously you'd want to veto it as a DM, but is there any RAW against it? Just want to make sure it's on firm ground rules-wise, whether or not I eventually end up rule-zeroing it anyway.

It's totally legal. You can rule 0 if you want.

And Jason: yes. Bloodline levels cost you exp, but since you don't actually level up you gain exp faster, so they're actually very much like LA buyback. A X3/Bloodline 1 in a group of 4th level characters gains exp as though he were a 3rd level character, and then becomes a 4th level character when he has enough experience for a 5th level character, thus anyone with a bloodline will always gain exp faster than the people in his group until he's pretty much caught up (but often then you get another bloodline level and fall behind again.

JaronK

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-04-29, 02:39 PM
JaronK is right. I'm not sure why DocRoc has been having difficulties with BLs for so long now.


they are literally something for nothingOnly as much as the LA buyoff. The mechanics are share a resemblance.


you literally have to be insane not to take them, because you can get into many PrCs up to three levels early.That's the case with a lot of things


no, there's nothing against taking 2 Major Bloodlines.Except by my balanced interpretation (the psuedo levels would present stacking issues if you tried, aside from the XP illegality)


You are clearly doing poor rules-lawyeringMan I love the internet (and your join date). I'll see you at BG if you want to take it to that level

Lamech
2010-04-29, 03:12 PM
It's totally legal. You can rule 0 if you want.

And Jason: yes. Bloodline levels cost you exp,
JaronKWhere does it say they cost xp? How are you getting that by RAW? I mean its a sane interpertation and all...

Doc Roc
2010-04-29, 03:26 PM
I guess what I'm getting at is that there are two valid readings here. One which makes the game explode, and one which makes the game super-nova. Which do you want to use?

Either way, these things are ban-worthy nonsense.

Gimme a bit, checking my copy of UA for precise wording.

EDIT:

Upon further examination, I think that PBMC has a pretty solid reading of the RAW, though I think one could pretty comfortably make a case that they count towards ECL. Effectively, what this means is that I have to reiterate my suggestion that bloodline levels are worth automatically banning, because not only are they broken in both forms, but there's now a reasonable question about how they actually work, meaning that a player might have one expectation, and a GM might have another. There's also some solid support for suggesting that one could take your bloodline levels consecutively, and at any point desired. These things are smoldering holes in the game, even by my liberal standards.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-04-29, 03:41 PM
It's totally legal. You can rule 0 if you want.

Excellent. Just what I wanted to hear.

goken04
2010-04-29, 04:12 PM
I guess what I'm getting at is that there are two valid readings here. One which makes the game explode, and one which makes the game super-nova. Which do you want to use?

Either way, these things are ban-worthy nonsense.

Gimme a bit, checking my copy of UA for precise wording.

EDIT:

Upon further examination, I think that PBMC has a pretty solid reading of the RAW, though I think one could pretty comfortably make a case that they count towards ECL. Effectively, what this means is that I have to reiterate my suggestion that bloodline levels are worth automatically banning, because not only are they broken in both forms, but there's now a reasonable question about how they actually work, meaning that a player might have one expectation, and a GM might have another. There's also some solid support for suggesting that one could take your bloodline levels consecutively, and at any point desired. These things are smoldering holes in the game, even by my liberal standards.

Where I see them having there place is in a game where all the PCs are given bloodlines of equal strength and the DM applies the mechanic consistently. In that game, Bloodlines work well. Allowing one player out of many to have a Major Bloodline? Borked.

The Cat Goddess
2010-04-29, 07:03 PM
How can you all possibly see this the way you are?!?

My join date is irrelevant. I have been playing RP games (mostly AD&D, a lot of GURPS, some Villians & Vigilantes, some Space Opera, some Champions... even more obscure games like BESM, Cyberpunk & original Gamma World) for more than 15 years now. Most of the guys I game with have been gaming since before 2nd edition AD&D came out.

You say "Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level" and appear to totally ignore the "the way a normal class level does" part.

UA specifically says (ignoring SRD, because Errata > Book > SRD):

Over the course of his carrer, a character with a bloodline becomes more powerful than one without a bloodline. Because the power gain is gradual over a span of twenty levels, a static level adjustment doesn't truly reflect this different. Instead a bloodline character must take one or more levels of "bloodline" at various points in his career, as noted on Table 1-2: Bloodline Levels. Before a character with a bloodline reaches the indicated character level, he must take on class level of "bloodline". Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below).

Note that is says "the way a normal class level does," Not "does not increase a character's character level at all". Further, while it does say that a static ECL does not reflect the benefits of a bloodline, it clearly implies that one's ECL is increased by taking a bloodline.

It goes on to give a very excellent example of a character with a Major Silver Dragon Bloodline (which follows my interpretation exactly).

UA goes on to say (my emphasis):
[quote]A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points and no class features. It counts as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks. Levels of bloodline never result in XP penalties for multiclass characters.[/b]

Now, as for a Binder 14 with 2 Major Bloodlines, one would assume a level progression thusly:

1: Binder 1
2: Bloodline-A 1
3: Bloodline-B 1
4: Binder 2 ("CL 4")
5: Bloodline-A 2
6: Bloodline-B 2
7: Binder 3 ("CL 7")
8: Binder 4
9: Binder 5
10: Bloodline-A 3
11: Binder 7 ("CL 11")
12: Bloodline-B 3
13: Binder 8 ("CL 12")
all remaining levels Binder to...
20: Binder 14 ("CL 20")

Now, I don't know what that would mean for Binder powers (since I haven't played that class), but I do know what that would mean for a Sorcerer following the same pattern. It would mean that the Sorcerer would have access to level 7 spells (as a 14th level Sorcerer) with a Caster Level of 20.

Level 21 would still be an Epic Level, because the character took 6 levels in "bloodline".

Further, PBMC, you indicate in your handbook on that other site that one could take bloodline levels as levels 0,1 & 2... yet, there hasn't been a "0" level since 2nd edition and having a bloodline at level 1 would mean you start the game with no hitpoints (not even your Con Modifier in HP by RAW) and no skill points... which means your character at level 1 is "dead on his feet" (0 hit points) and doing anything more than a 5-foot step would put you at negative hit points and dying.

Just like a Drow (ECL 2) becomes Epic Level after 18 class levels (without ECL buy-off), a human with a major bloodline becomes Epic Level after 17 class levels and 3 Bloodline levels.

Any other reading takes both RAW and RAI and throws them out the window.

JasonP
2010-04-29, 07:23 PM
UA goes on to say (my emphasis):
[quote]A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points and no class features. It counts as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks. Levels of bloodline never result in XP penalties for multiclass characters.[/b]

It's really odd that you only bolded half of that sentence. Context is important. It says that it counts as a normal class level for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks, and never mentions it counting as a normal class level for any other thing.

Also from the Dungeon Master's Guide, the definition of an epic level character

One who's character level is 21st or higher
I think that makes the argument there.

The Rabbler
2010-04-29, 07:25 PM
...
stuff
...


your join date shows how long you've been on the forum; which tends to be pretty indicative of a person's experience with optimizing and tricks like this. I'm not making any assumptions, but that's generally how it works. I'm proof of this.

anyway, I see your points, but you seem to be highlighting the points that work against you. when you mention "the way a normal class level does" you're reading this to mean that it works similarly to a normal class, but with some differences. everyone else is reading this as "as opposed to the way normal classes take levels".


A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points and no class features. It counts as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks. Levels of bloodline never result in XP penalties for multiclass characters.

all that this means is that it only ever counts as a normal class for the purposes of determining maximum skill ranks.

By my understanding (and this is the part I'm having trouble with), Bloodlines ACT like you took a level in them for their purposes, but as far as your XP is concerned, you effectively created an item that cost XP equal to the amount it took for you to level up from your previous level; that is, you're at level 2 and you get enough XP to get you to level 3, but you get a bloodline level instead and now you have to get all of that XP back before you truly level up again. you baisically have to reach level 3, 6, and 12 twice.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-04-29, 07:28 PM
How can you all possibly see this the way you are?!?

My join date is irrelevant. I have been playing RP games (mostly AD&D, a lot of GURPS, some Villians & Vigilantes, some Space Opera, some Champions... even more obscure games like BESM, Cyberpunk & original Gamma World) for more than 15 years now. Most of the guys I game with have been gaming since before 2nd edition AD&D came out.

While I won't comment on the level/no level debate, the idea that you hold the minority opinion because of your join date and that you need to throw your RPG weight around is ludicrous. Someone can misread something or hold the correct opinion whether they've been playing since 2e, 4e, 3e, BECMI, or somewhere in between. The point of PlzBreakMyCmpAn's comment was simply that he has a track record of good optimization, so your accusation of "poor rules lawyering" was made in a vacuum; while it perhaps wasn't the best way to object to the comment, there's no reason for you to get defensive about it.

The Cat Goddess
2010-04-29, 08:05 PM
Okay, I think the key texts are "take a bloodline level" and "Levels of bloodline never result in XP penalties for multiclass characters."

Can levels of Cleric result in XP penalties for a multiclass Rogue/Monk Dwarf? Yes. Can levels of bloodline result in XP penalties for that same character? No. Why would they bother to include that line if levels of bloodline weren't actual levels?

Basically, RAW indicates that bloodline levels can be taken whenever you want... but if you put off taking them, you suffer an XP penalty. So why not take all three starting at 2nd level, like so:

Level 1: Monk
Level 2: Bloodline
Level 3: Bloodline
Level 4: Bloodline
Level 5: Monk

Because that would make your character pathetic compared to every other 5th level Monk (especially by skill points)! However, spreading them out in the manner suggested (3rd, 6th & 13th) puts you only slightly behind in gaining class powers and somewhat behind in BAB & Saves... but keeps you even with others in basic things like damage dice, sneak attack (for Rogues) etc. and gives you the realitively decent bonuses of the Bloodline itself.

Bloodlines are neat and do have their place... typically with multiclass characters who have multiple level-dependent abilities (like Monk, Rogue, Warlock, Scout).

Think of it this way:

If you pushed all the bonuses of a Major Bloodline to the beginning... would it be worth a +3 LA? If so, then spreading the benefit out and thus spreading the "LA" out, is balanced.

The Rabbler
2010-04-29, 08:24 PM
you're still not seeing that they aren't really levels in their own right. what they are, are uses of XP to put a character past a threshold to gain abilities. they aren't LA. they aren't levels. they're uses of XP which are treated as levels for level-dependent progressions. if they were levels, they'd give HD, BAB, skills, feats, and the like. literally every level of any class that exists will give these, but bloodlines don't. think of it not as a level, but as investing in an item familiar-like object which happens to be yourself.

WoTC isn't stupid enough to make these count as levels. maybe it would be acceptable if every bloodline was player-selected based off of a model, but it simply doesn't give enough of a bonus to really make losing HD, skills, etc worthwhile.

JaronK
2010-04-29, 08:55 PM
Where does it say they cost xp? How are you getting that by RAW? I mean its a sane interpertation and all...

Sorry, "cost xp" isn't quite the right way to say it, since your xp level doesn't go down, so it doesn't cost xp in the sense that item creation does. What does happen is that you gain a "bloodline level" instead of a normal character level for the same xp that would have gotten you a normal level. I get this by RAW from the way it talks about gaining a bloodline level instead of a character level without actually raising your character level. So, a character with enough xp to be a fourth level character could either be a normal fourth level character or be a third level character (for all purposes except specific bloodline things) with a single bloodline level. Your xp doesn't go down, and you get more xp in future because you're lower level than your group, but your character level is indeed lower.

Does that make sense?

For relevant rules, we're looking at page 19 of UA. It says "Before a character with a bloodline reaches the indicated character level, he must take one class level of 'bloodline.' Class levels of 'bloodline' do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below)."

So, you take a "bloodline level" but your character level doesn't go up (except as explicitly noted, namely the increase in max skill ranks and class abilities based on class levels). Since you took the level instead of a normal character level you don't level up with the experience you have, nor do you count as being of greater character level, but instead you get the Bloodline stuff. Next level you'll go up normally, but note that you're effectively one level behind (when you reach enough exp for 5th level, you'll be a fourth level character, for example).

JaronK

Darrin
2010-04-29, 09:06 PM
So, you take a "bloodline level" but your character level doesn't go up (except as explicitly noted, namely the increase in max skill ranks and class abilities based on class levels). Since you took the level instead of a normal character level you don't level up with the experience you have, nor do you count as being of greater character level, but instead you get the Bloodline stuff. Next level you'll go up normally, but note that you're effectively one level behind (when you reach enough exp for 5th level, you'll be a fourth level character, for example).


So it's basically "Reverse Level Adjustment". You're buying LA +1, but they don't explicitly call it LA to prevent you from buying it off.

Thus, a Fighter 3 with LA +1 and a Fighter 3/Bloodline 1 are on equal footing XP-wise, they both need 10000 XP to gain another level of Fighter or whatever.

Ugh. Even when it almost makes sense, it still makes my head hurt.

The Cat Goddess
2010-04-29, 09:12 PM
Hmmm... mathing out what I think JaronK is saying...

Level 1. Sorcerer.
1,000xp = Character Level 2. Class level Sorcerer-2
3,000xp = Bloodline Level
6,000xp = Character Level 3. Class level, Sorcerer-3 (Caster level-4)
10,000xp = Character Level 4. Class level, Sorcerer-4 (Caster level-5)
15,000xp = Character Level 5. Class level, Sorcerer-5 (Caster level-6)
21,000xp = Bloodline Level
28,000xp = Character Level 6. Class level, Sorcerer-6 (Caster level-8)
And so on...

This seems more in line with the text than simply buying the Bloodline levels like one would spend xp to make magic items...

An interesting progression... it would mean that the character in question wouldn't reach "Character Level 20" until they got 253,000xp. It would also mean that, even though they had as much XP (or more) as those around them, they would be a lower character level for the purposes of gaining XP.

JaronK
2010-04-29, 10:34 PM
So it's basically "Reverse Level Adjustment". You're buying LA +1, but they don't explicitly call it LA to prevent you from buying it off.

Kind of. Except that LA raises character level and Bloodlines don't. So... sort of.


Thus, a Fighter 3 with LA +1 and a Fighter 3/Bloodline 1 are on equal footing XP-wise, they both need 10000 XP to gain another level of Fighter or whatever.

Yes, but the one with the Bloodline is gaining exp faster, because he's only got an ECL of three while the guy with the LA has an ECL of four.


Ugh. Even when it almost makes sense, it still makes my head hurt.

It works pretty well, actually. Except for the part where you have to calculate Exp differently for them. Most DMs I know hate that and prefer everyone to just have the same ECL.

And yes, Cat Goddess. You've got it exactly.

JaronK

term1nally s1ck
2010-04-29, 10:55 PM
The problem with that approach, which is RAI, is the XP and level tables in the PHB, which are the ONLY section that deals with gaining levels.

They say that an ECL 3 character gains a level when he reaches 6000XP.

This is when you'd take your Bloodline 'Level'.

You are still ECL 3, so you gain a level when you reach....oh wait...6000XP. I guess you just get your next level...right now...Huh. That seems a little wrong.

That is why Bloodlines are considered a problem, because the literal RAW reading of the rules makes them completely free and without cost.

As for the RAI rules, where they work as basically LA you gain as you go along, they're more balanced, but still easy to b0rk games with.

Doc Roc
2010-04-29, 11:08 PM
For reference, they have been banned in ToS for almost seven months. Barring a very slick rewrite, they will remain banned indefinitely. As they stand currently, they are unrepentantly bad.

JaronK
2010-04-30, 01:10 AM
The problem with that approach, which is RAI, is the XP and level tables in the PHB, which are the ONLY section that deals with gaining levels.

They say that an ECL 3 character gains a level when he reaches 6000XP.

This is when you'd take your Bloodline 'Level'.

You are still ECL 3, so you gain a level when you reach....oh wait...6000XP. I guess you just get your next level...right now...Huh. That seems a little wrong.

Except that Bloodlines do state that you're taking the level instead of a normal level, so you do have the appropriate number of levels at 6kxp. Your ECL is lower than normal, but your levels are the same. So it does work, weird as it is.

They of course can be heavily optimized via Initiator Level stacking, and they're handy for a Hellfire Warlock (maybe, but see below), but that's about it. It's a little weird as to what they stack with... they don't work with Animal Companions or Sneak Attack, for example.

JaronK

Doc Roc
2010-04-30, 01:20 AM
They break skill caps, under your interpretation, J. This is Bad News.

JaronK
2010-04-30, 01:54 AM
They break skill caps, under your interpretation, J. This is Bad News.

They most certainly do that. Then again, since they work much like LA, it's hard to actually early enter PrCs that way (you'll get in with fewer HD and at lower ECL, but you might get in at the same time in gameplay).

The place where they get really powerful is when a DM says "everybody start at ECL 12 for a one shot" and you take a Major Bloodline. In that situation, you get them free. However, if you were to continue the campaign you'd rapidly fall behind, because you'd need a lot more exp to advance (you'd start with the exp of a level 15 character, and need to get to that of a 16 character, just to get to ECL 13).

JaronK

term1nally s1ck
2010-04-30, 07:56 AM
That interpretation, as I said, is the obvious RAI.

However, what you've missed is that you don't 'use up' your XP to level, you just become the next level as soon as you hit the XP total needed for your Character Level. Which is not increased by the bloodline level.

So yeah, you take it as a normal level. The next time you gain XP, you look at the chart, reference your ECL, find the amount of XP needed to level again, and you're already there, because your ECL has not changed.

Lamech
2010-04-30, 09:32 AM
They most certainly do that. Then again, since they work much like LA, it's hard to actually early enter PrCs that way (you'll get in with fewer HD and at lower ECL, but you might get in at the same time in gameplay).

The place where they get really powerful is when a DM says "everybody start at ECL 12 for a one shot" and you take a Major Bloodline. In that situation, you get them free. However, if you were to continue the campaign you'd rapidly fall behind, because you'd need a lot more exp to advance (you'd start with the exp of a level 15 character, and need to get to that of a 16 character, just to get to ECL 13).

JaronK
Except thats not how leveling up works. The xp needed to level is based on character level, so if you level up and take a bloodline your xp doesn't change and neither does the xp needed to get to the next level.


P.S. Technically you can't level up twice with one pack of xp, and you go down to one xp short of leveling if you take a bloodline level. So bloodlines aren't totally free, but still pretty close.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-30, 09:34 AM
Except thats not how leveling up works. The xp needed to level is based on character level, so if you level up and take a bloodline your xp doesn't change and neither does the xp needed to get to the next level.


P.S. Technically you can't level up twice with one pack of xp, and you go down to one xp short of leveling if you take a bloodline level. So bloodlines aren't totally free, but still pretty close.

Right, the rules make you have 1 less XP than the amount required to level up again.
So you don't level up twice, but one battle away from leveling up twice.

The Cat Goddess
2010-04-30, 02:50 PM
Right, the rules make you have 1 less XP than the amount required to level up again.
So you don't level up twice, but one battle away from leveling up twice.

Which is broken and clearly not RAI.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-30, 02:55 PM
Which is broken and clearly not RAI.

No, that is RAW.
You can't level up more than once from same exp. You are instead 1 XP less than the amount needed for second level up.

Or are you arguing the fact that Bloodlines don't affect character level?

Person_Man
2010-04-30, 03:16 PM
Out of curiosity, has WotC done anything like Bloodlines/Level Adjustment/Templates/monster races yet for 4E? I only own the core 4E books and play it rarely and don't read 4E threads very often, so I honestly don't know. One of the big fixes for the new system was that it removed all that variant/confusing racial rules, but I assumed that the endless stream of supplements meant that it was only a matter of time before someone gave into the temptation of creating a bunch of new and different crunch (and headaches).

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-04-30, 03:24 PM
Out of curiosity, has WotC done anything like Bloodlines/Level Adjustment/Templates/monster races yet for 4E?

Well, there are monster races in MM1 and template analogs in DMG1, so I'd assume MM2 and DMG2 have more of those, but that's it as far as I know.

The Cat Goddess
2010-04-30, 03:46 PM
No, that is RAW.
You can't level up more than once from same exp. You are instead 1 XP less than the amount needed for second level up.

Or are you arguing the fact that Bloodlines don't affect character level?

Yes, I am arguing that. You'd see that if you read my other posts in this thread. There's a difference between "don't affect character level in the same way" and "don't affect character level at all".

I'm saying they affect "Effective Character Level", much like an ECL adjustment, only spread over three "character levels" (or one or two, in the case of minor and intermediate).

Doc Roc
2010-04-30, 03:57 PM
Yes, I am arguing that. You'd see that if you read my other posts in this thread. There's a difference between "don't affect character level in the same way" and "don't affect character level at all".

I'm saying they affect "Effective Character Level", much like an ECL adjustment, only spread over three "character levels" (or one or two, in the case of minor and intermediate).

My experience has been that they are ban-worthy even when they count for ECL. These things are just bad news.

term1nally s1ck
2010-04-30, 04:04 PM
"Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits"

Bar a reference to skill ranks, this is the only line to be used.

It's not 'does not affect the character level', it's 'does not increase the character level the way a class level does'.

This is not ambiguous, this is explicitly stating that the bloodline level does not increase ECL, unlike normal class levels.

EDIT: And, have to agree with the Doc up there. Even if they do count for ECL, they're still very very powerful, there's a reason certain classes stop progressing things after only a few levels.

TheMadLinguist
2010-04-30, 04:29 PM
"Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits"

Bar a reference to skill ranks, this is the only line to be used.

It's not 'does not affect the character level', it's 'does not increase the character level the way a class level does'.

This is not ambiguous, this is explicitly stating that the bloodline level does not increase ECL, unlike normal class levels.

EDIT: And, have to agree with the Doc up there. Even if they do count for ECL, they're still very very powerful, there's a reason certain classes stop progressing things after only a few levels.
The other interpretation is that they effect a character's level, but in a different way (IE: you don't gain HD, sort of thing)

term1nally s1ck
2010-04-30, 04:37 PM
No, re-read the line.

The text explicitly says that levels in bloodline do not INCREASE a character's character level the way a class level does.

Increase, not affect. There's a HUGE difference, because 'do not increase' is explicit in what it means, whereas 'does not affect' would be ambiguous, and it could affect the character in various ways.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-04-30, 06:11 PM
The rabbler and JaronK are doing a very good job of explaining the mechanics. Gj


Gimme a bit, checking my copy of UA for precise wording.

Upon further examination, I think that PBMC has a pretty solid reading of the RAWThank You.

I'm aware that it is possible to interpret the adding ECL possibility, and that they might (under a sketchier interpretation) be able to be taken at whatever levels. All I did was try to reign in a monstrosity with two things in mind: RAW and the most balanced interpretation that I could see fitting it without making BLs useless or ridonkulously overpowered.

If you do add to ECL there is barely any reason to use these, aside from a few fringe builds where you want Legacy Champion but can't eek out the 5th level of it. If you allow the taking levels any time, everyone will take them early for minimal XP.


Where I see them having there place is in a game where all the PCs are given X of equal strengthThis logic applies to parties forced to play all goblins. DnD has character options of very strength levels (half-dragon vs lothtouched, samari vs archivist, etc). Bloodlines are no different. Yes its powerful. The text admits that. But its not gestalt or gate. I am one of the strongest proponents (who walks the walk) of trying to maintain some sort of balance for 3.5.


How can you all possibly see this the way you are?!?
[you must take my reading.] Any other reading takes both RAW and RAI and throws them out the window.:smallfrown:

Further, PBMC, you indicate in your handbook on that other site that one could take bloodline levels as levels 0,1 & 2... vs

not anytime before or we could take all 3 as level 0, 1, and 2 for only a 3000xp loss...

Okay, I think the key texts are "take a bloodline level" and "Levels of bloodline never result in XP penalties for multiclass characters."

Why would they bother to include that line if levels of bloodline weren't actual levels?

Basically, RAW indicates that bloodline levels can be taken whenever you want...Of course psuedo-levels would have no XP penalties. This does not help your argument. Be careful of begging the question.

The reason the word 'level' is used is because it lets the player know how to mechanically fit the cost in (pay the xp between 2,3 5,6 11,12 for your other levels). What other word would they use? It seems perfectly reasonable to me. Anyways I don't like to argue semantics.


So it's basically "Reverse Level Adjustment". You're buying LA +1, but they don't explicitly call it LA to prevent you from buying it off.
Ugh. Even when it almost makes sense, it still makes my head hurt.Exactly. BL, LA buyoff, and the item familiar rules are presented in the same book. This made the authors cautious about their combined use.

And yes, I'm afraid I don't chose to invest in the easy topics. Sorry :smallredface:


You are still ECL 3, so you gain a level when you reach....oh wait...6000XP.Obviously you can't use the XP twice. Its already been used for the BL level. You will have to gain seperate xp to use on your ECL4 level. Trying to do otherwise (even if you are short 1xp) is true RAW-abuse, IMO.


The place where they get really powerful is when a DM says "everybody start at ECL 12 for a one shot" and you take a Major BloodlineSilly DM's. Specify the total XP of the character. Otherwise everyone will grab a bought-off LA2 character. :smallwink:

terminal is right as I think I alluded to somewhere before he brought up the virtually free thing. As mentioned before I can't see anyone allowing BL for a 1xp cost per psuedo level. This why I make it clear (I hope) in the handbook that the max-delayed full price xp requirement is my balancing interpretation. I am of the opinion that my max-delayed full price xp psuedo levels are strong and flavorful but balanced overall. Sort of like incarnum - BLs are not the easiest thing to master, but there are bigger fish to fry if you want to balance 3.5.

term1nally s1ck
2010-04-30, 06:18 PM
I'm currently running a campaign where I'm allowing bloodlines, but they count as normal levels. I'm in no way arguing that that is not RAI, as it is obvious that that is how they're meant to work.

The reason I'm arguing this is that the RAW IS the most broken reading.

I'm not sure what you're saying, as you seem to agree and disagree with me..I suspect that you're saying that you agree on the RAW reading, but think that people should play it the other way, to actually have a sane level of balance in the game.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-04-30, 06:33 PM
I suspect that you're saying that you agree on the RAW reading, but think that people should play it the other way, to actually have a sane level of balance in the game.I'm saying that a carte blanche reading will end up with my reading of it, but will most likely not spawn the rule-lawyering 'I-get-this-for-free' xp-1 understanding.

Most people who read contact other plane don't realize the rule-lawyering possible with that either.

The Cat Goddess
2010-04-30, 11:34 PM
Yes, a person could (using my interpretation) buy the 3 Bloodline Levels at levels 2, 3 & 4... but, as I mentioned in an earlier post, this character would be pathetic compared to the others in the party... at least until 9th level at a minimum.

Sure, if the DM allows making characters "starting at lvl 13", you could do this...

But, a person who is interested in making a realistic character won't do this.

After all, it's important to know at what levels your character takes what classes so you know what level your skill points are at during each level.

urbanpirate
2010-05-01, 12:22 AM
just because this isn't screwy enough yet,
if someone were to play a level adjusted race could they then take bloodline levels to lower the effect of the level adjustment and assuming survivablitly then level faster(relative to party) due to larger xp share and essential negate the la without a direct buyoff?

Theodoxus
2010-05-01, 12:43 AM
I don't understand y'alls interpretation. Especially since it's clearly there in the rules.


"Because the power gain is gradual over a span of twenty levels, a static level adjustment doesn't truly reflect this difference. Instead, a bloodline character must take one or more levels of “bloodline” at various points in his career, as noted on Table 1–2: Bloodline Levels. Before a character with a bloodline reaches the indicated character level, he must take one class level of “bloodline.”

Emphasis mine. All this is saying is yes, it's a CLASS LEVEL but no, it's not a LA in the classic sense (as described just prior to the Bloodline section).


"Class levels of “bloodline” do not increase a character’s character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below)."

Again, emphasis mine. See that CLASS LEVEL distinction again? There's no interpretation for that - a class level is always exactly that, a level of a class, regardless of how cool (like wizard) or suck (like monk) or missing a feature (like war hulk) it might be. Bloodlines aren't normal classes, but they are still classes - they suck up XP (I'd love for you to show me explicitly where it says they don't).

See the two buts there? They are providing the exact same function - they're letting you know that while there's an odd thing going on, the underlying structure hasn't changed. A class level is still a class level.

So, you're trading up to three levels in standard classes for up to 20 levels of improvements. There's no mechanic for buying off these class levels (it'd be like buying off your monk levels in some Tashalatora build - it doesn't make sense), and there's certainly nothing written that even gives the impression that the class "Bloodline" isn't a real class nor provide real benefits.

Now, maybe you don't want to trade in some fraction of a base attack bonus, saves and hit points to gain a free feat or two, some resistances, skill bonus and attribute gains - that's fine. But the cost inherent in taking class levels in bloodlines makes them fairly balanced - though like all things WotC, some are better than others.

If you can spare the negative qualities (the lack of normal class additions like BAB, Saves and HPs) they give good flavor and decent abilities. If you can't, then it's closer to VoP in power.

Warping the bloodline classes into something so obviously far from the well outlined presentation is, as Cat Goddess originally stated, a gross misapplication of rules-lawyering to garner a benefit I have ever witnessed. Quit wishing bloodlines were free Level adjustments and start using them as they were meant to be. Or don't.

Theodoxus
2010-05-01, 12:55 AM
just because this isn't screwy enough yet,
if someone were to play a level adjusted race could they then take bloodline levels to lower the effect of the level adjustment and assuming survivablitly then level faster(relative to party) due to larger xp share and essential negate the la without a direct buyoff?

No. Again, it doesn't work that way.

At 1st level, you gain a small benefit that's tacked onto your character (presuming a major bloodline, of course). For instance, lets say you're playing a Human Bard with the major Celestial bloodline.
1st level = Bard 1 with +2 Sense motive checks.
2nd level = Bard 2 with Alertness feat
3rd level = Bloodline 1 with Wisdom +1
4th level = Bard 3 with Protection from Evil (1/day)
so on and so on. That third level, is still a class level, it adds a character level to your character, but "not in the way a normal class level does" - meaning it doesn't grant you anything outside of the items it explicitly states.

You aren't leveling faster than non-bloodlined members because you ARE ECL 4, even if you only have 3 HD. That's why the say it's not like a static Level Adjustment - its similar, but different.

If it was the same, the authors would have said so. If it were a LA that could be bought off, the authors would have said so. Instead, they wrote two simple paragraphs that explain exactly what a bloodline is AND isn't. This kind of reading comprehension shouldn't be that hard.

The Rabbler
2010-05-01, 01:15 AM
first, to PBMC, thanks. first compliment on the forum :smallbiggrin:.

second, I'm surprised that this thread survived for so long. I expected this to die quickly with at most one lawyer presenting a case and getting crushed by overwhelming evidence to the contrary. I didn't realize this was such a controversial topic, and for that, I'm sorry.

finally,


Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does


this explicitly states that bloodlines do NOT affect ECL. This would make one gain XP faster than the rest of the party (assuming they did not take any bloodline levels) and eventually the bloodline levels amount to a total loss of 21,000 XP, but a net gain in power over that of your party members.

baisically, unless everyone gets bloodlines of similar strength, there will be an imbalance in power favoring those who did pick up bloodlines. if these are to be allowed, the whole party must get them or there's no point.

alternatively, these would be an interesting way to make lower-tier classes measure up better to the higher tiers. let the player design a major bloodline and you've got yourself a balanced party!

TheMadLinguist
2010-05-01, 01:26 AM
An airplane does not fly the way a helicopter does.

This does not negate the fact that airplanes fly.

The Rabbler
2010-05-01, 01:39 AM
An airplane does not fly the way a helicopter does.

This does not negate the fact that airplanes fly.

right. it still flies, but it doesn't count toward the number of helicopters in the air.

TheMadLinguist
2010-05-01, 01:40 AM
Point is, the interpretation that
"Bloodlines increase your character level, but in a different way from normal class levels (namely, by not adding on hit dice)"
is a perfectly valid reading

The Rabbler
2010-05-01, 01:48 AM
Point is, the interpretation that
"Bloodlines increase your character level, but in a different way from normal class levels (namely, by not adding on hit dice)"
is a perfectly valid reading

so is: "Bloodlines do not increase your character level as do normal classes, but still cost XP that would have been used to attain a new character level."

just think of the balance between the interpretations. by your interpretation, a player is stuck with at least 1 dead level whose only purpose is to allow the acquisition of some meager bonuses (at least from the samples).

by my interpretation, a player uses XP that could have been spent to level up to instead allow those meager bonuses to continue to stack up. I see it as paying tribute to allow the features to keep coming in a way that doesn't come back to haunt you throughout your career.

Theodoxus
2010-05-01, 09:44 AM
Ah, but Rambler, there is nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing, in the game that would support your premise. So for a completely new mechanic, whereby you gain something for nothing, the authors have done a very poor job of explaining it - and while I wouldn't put it past them to do so, the way they do describe it, works, without mangling the intent.

Common sense, if you really can't see whats written, should win out the day.
Class levels from bloodlines, are, as you say, dead levels. That's the cost of getting free feats, attribute increases and skill bonuses. You might scoff at the cost - and that's certainly within your purview - but it IS the cost for this mechanic.

Now, it's perfectly acceptable for you to houserule Bloodlines to work as you desire - it's not, however, for you to imperially state that your 'interpretation' is the only one. Especially as it flies directly in the face of RAW.

It's unfortunate that the phrase "Class levels of “bloodline” do not increase a character’s character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below)" was written that way. Mostly because it's redundant. While I suspect it was to clarify the difference between the bloodline class and a standard class, it's superfluous and creates confusion.

Seriously, remove that line and tell me you can interpret the bloodline class as you do.

"Over the course of his career, a character with a bloodline becomes more powerful than one without a bloodline. Because the power gain is gradual over a span of twenty levels, a static level adjustment doesn’t truly reflect this difference. Instead, a bloodline character must take one or more levels of “bloodline” at various points in his career, as noted on Table 1–2: Bloodline
Levels. Before a character with a bloodline reaches the indicated character level, he must take one class level of “bloodline.”

Without that last line, it's very obvious the intent is that bloodlines are actual character levels, that increase your ECL (since it effects things like skill ranks and caster level) without increasing your HD.

Add that last line back in, and you can see exactly that's what's stated. It doesn't increase your ECL like a normal class. It increases your ECL like a bloodline class. But writing that would have been recursive, and we'd be arguing their lack of grammar skills rather than being purposefully obtuse to gain power.

term1nally s1ck
2010-05-01, 10:18 AM
So, your argument against the interpretation I've been taking of the text is that that particular line is poorly written and doesn't mean what it appears to mean.

Unfortunately, because 'Increase' is the word used, there's little room to wiggle around with the definition. If it were 'affect' or 'change' or any other word, you could argue that it still counts to Character Level.

I mean, come on. IF a bloodline level counted towards ECL, then how is the line:

"Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does"

true in ANY way.

You are all arguing that this line is poorly phrased, and twists the meaning that is INTENDED within the passage. If you're arguing RAI, I AGREE with you. That is most definitely the intended mechanism. However, with the RAW the way it is, they screwed up, and you get the level for effectively free. It's not fair, it shouldn't be used for any campaign, and you have to HOUSERULE it to cost XP or to count as a normal character level to be able to have a player use them. But that IS a houserule.

Theodoxus
2010-05-01, 11:39 AM
You're looking at the word 'increase' out of context.

To use TheMadLinguist's example: "Class levels of "bloodline" Helicopters do not increase a character's character level their elevation the way a normal class level aircraft does"

Or, to use an ingame example: "Class levels of "bloodline"War Hulk do not increase a character's character level BAB the way a normal class level does"

In context, it's nothing at all what you're stating.

*edit to add* If they wanted it to work the way you're intending, the easiest way to do would state "Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level."

Why overly complicate it with "the way a normal class level does" if that piece was irrelevant?

term1nally s1ck
2010-05-01, 11:58 AM
I mean, come on. IF a bloodline level counted towards ECL, then how is the line:

"Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does"

true in ANY way.


Still this applies. If your character level is increased by a Bloodline level, then that line is untrue. It is known that Bloodlines count towards skill caps as if they were a normal character level (which by itself implies that they don't count as a character level), and that class features that depend on class/character level are advanced, too. If a bloodline level increases character level, then that line of text is false, so we are not discussing RAW.


Oh, and that 'ingame example'? War Hulk doesn't increase BAB at all, so that would correspond to my interpretation of the text perfectly.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-05-01, 05:34 PM
:smallsmile: I try to compliment people. I don't see as much of that as I'd like since moving away from 339.

TML, I think I finally see the reasoning behind your hesitancy. I'm so glad I took those religion classes, this is just like Zwingly and Calvin and Luther's historical back-and-forth about ______ (PM me if you want to know the blank; posters in the United Socialist Republics of GitP != free)

I'll still say though that terminally has the best grasp of BLs RAW.


a completely new mechanicIts in UA. There's lots of that. My interpretation is also suspiciously similar to the surrounding variants. But alas, that could be just an amazing coincidence...


it's not, however, for you to imperially state that your 'interpretation' is the only one. Especially as it flies directly in the face of RAW.I haven't. The RAW isn't clear enough to support force view. It might be clear enough to force mine. Again, depending on how you read it. Is this settled? No. But for what its worth I do believe my argument is logically stronger.


Seriously, remove that line and tell me you can interpret the bloodline class as you do.I have. My handbook added was originally created specifically with that part added in last before posting it on 339. I wanted to make sure it "worked together." I put a lot of work into my handbooks/builds (unless they are unfinished). I'm not a read-it-once-so-now-I-can-spam boards member.


it's very obvious the intent is that bloodlines are actual character levels

being purposefully obtuse to gain power.:smallmad: I'm afraid not.

I believe Skip Williams wrote on his sight that this is the case with much of 3.5 (he said so distastefully, granted)


Why overly complicate it with "the way a normal class level does" if that piece was irrelevant?That's linguistics my friend. I'm not sure if you know any natural languages (Latin/Greek) that are more formal than English, so it could be difficult to give analogies.


It's not fair, it shouldn't be used for any campaign, and you have to HOUSERULE it to cost XP or to count as a normal character level to be able to have a player use them.I don't deny this. Its just like how most people would like to have cancer mages immune to the positive effects of diseases.