Lords of Madness

[Geiger Counter]

Just got finished reading and I thought it sucked.
The PrCs and most feats for humans sucked.
Most of the monsters it gave stats for were unoriginal.
The fluff on the major aberrations useless (does not fit with eberron).
And they give only a few sentences on etherguants.
Totally not worth the money.

[KillianHawkeye]

Well, you win some, you lose some. (I'm not sure what else you want to hear.)

[kamikasei]

The fluff on the major aberrations useless (does not fit with eberron).

Why should it? Eberron, as the specific setting, has the responsibility to adapt general material to it; general material shouldn't be written specifically to fit in to Eberron.

[ghost_warlock]

Just got finished reading and I thought it sucked.
The PrCs and most feats for humans sucked.

Dunno. Abolisher is one of the few PrCs that advance spellcasting, wildshape, and animal companion. Or give wildshape to people who don't already have it.

The sanctified mind has it's fans.

Fleshwarper has a delicious flavor, too bad it's damn-near impossible to qualify for pre-epic.

[Kris Strife]

I'm pretty sure there are at least sidebars for Grell and Mindflayers explaining how to put them in Ebberon, and Aboleths at least work for any setting. I think the Neogi and the body snatcher ones are both from other planets in the prime material, so they shouldn't be that hard either.

[Runestar]

It does provide some neat options for making beholders more dangerous...:smallbiggrin:

[Optimystik]

Mindsight. That is all.

Oh, and Sanctified Mind. Ulitharid.

[SaintRidley]

See, and as a fan of Illithids, that chapter alone made the entire book worth the $40 I paid for it when it came out.

And yeah. Mindsight. My favourite feat in the 3.5 game.

[Aharon]

@ghost_warlock
Uh... why would that be the case?
Human, Able learner, some class that gets heal as class skill 1, wizard 6, you are in. And there is quite probably some more optimized way to do it...

[Optimystik]

Abolisher fits perfectly in Eberron. Druids that hate Aberrations? Come on!

It's also 8/10 casting, so you still get 9ths, and has Know (Planes) and Gather Information as class skills. (Even the Gatekeeper Mystagogue - the other anti-aberration Druid PrC - doesn't get the latter.)

It loses one more CL than the GM, but the GM doesn't advance wildshape.

[Mordokai]

And yeah. Mindsight. My favourite feat in the 3.5 game.

I hear a lot about this, but am not familiar with it. Mind giving me a brief overview of it, so I can finally see what's so good about it?

[PhoenixRivers]

I hear a lot about this, but am not familiar with it. Mind giving me a brief overview of it, so I can finally see what's so good about it?

Simple:

Q: Do you have Telepathy?

If so, you're eligible.

The feat basically takes your telepathy range, and gives you a special sense. You detect what square anything with a mind is in, as long as it's within that telepathy range. You also know its intelligence score.

[zagan]

@ghost_warlock
Uh... why would that be the case?
Human, Able learner, some class that gets heal as class skill 1, wizard 6, you are in. And there is quite probably some more optimized way to do it...

Because while the class itself only need 4 rank in heal the Graft flesh feat that serve as prereq need 10 rank. The only official way to gain heal as a class skill apart from multiclassing or prcing is being a glimmerskin halfling or draconic heritage feat (if your not a sorcerer you need another feat to qualify for it)

So yeah it's not that easy.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A single-classed Adept (NPC class) can qualify for Fleshwarper. Otherwise, go something like Wizard 4/ Master Specialist 1/ Divine Oracle 1/ Wizard +1, and use your Wizard 5 bonus feat to pick up Graft Flesh. You'd need max (4) cross-class ranks in Heal at level 5, gain another 5 ranks at Divine Oracle 1 (Int +3, or +2 and Human), and buy one more cross-class rank upon gaining Wizard 5. You don't even need to spend (waste) a feat on Skill Focus for Divine Oracle, since it can be gained via the Frog God's Fane, and it's actually worth taking more levels of later on to get Uncanny Dodge and Evasion.

I really like the Aberration Blood feats, particularly for a dedicated grappler. Go Monk 6/ Psionic Fist, take Improved Grapple (+4), Combat Reflexes, and Improved Trip via Monk, get Jotunbrud (+4) if Human, Aberration Blood: Flexible Limbs (+2), Inhuman Reach, Deepspawn (+2), and use Warped Mind to substitute for Wild Talent. Take Expansion (+5) and Grip of Iron (+4), and be sure to pick up Practiced Manifester. Use your two tentacle attacks from Deepspawn to initiate the grapple, and make grapple checks to deal damage with your unarmed strike attacks. You can even pick up Starspawn to gain nonmagical flight, or maybe take Martial Study and Martial Stance for Crushing Weight of the Mountain to deal unarmed damage and constrict damage with every grapple check.

Mindsight is indeed amazing, it's so good that any nongood arcane spellcaster who can cast Charm Person should try to dip Mindbender to take it.

I mostly like Lords of Madness because it gives me more options. Builds like the grappler above or a Crusader 4/ Sanctified Mind 1/ War Mind 10/ Sanctified Mind 5 would not be possible without Lords of Madness. Plus it has Invoke Magic, one of the two spells that make the Evocation school worth keeping in the high to epic levels.

[Scorpions__]

Just got finished reading and I thought it sucked.
The PrCs and most feats for humans sucked.
Most of the monsters it gave stats for were unoriginal.
The fluff on the major aberrations useless (does not fit with eberron).
And they give only a few sentences on etherguants.
Totally not worth the money.

I disagree.
I found many of the prestige classes and feats very useful and have seen them used by my players on more than one occasion, as well as the cool spells (Invoke Magic anyone?). Darkrunner is cool for my NPCs, and the Abolisher is nifty too, not to mention Fleshwarper. Parrying Shield is good for the shield-focused Knight in my signature, and Starspawn rocks, so does Mindsight.
And I love the fluff, it gives us pages and pages on each, and the introduction of the Tsochari rocks. All the information on the different gods, and the whole process of ceremorphosis. A-Grade material I think. And yeah, it doesn't say Eberron on the cover so, I know I wasn't expecting much of anything to do with Eberron inside.
What book is Ethergaunt in? I remember reading about them in a Spotlight article once.
I live in Canada, so the price on this was steeped, but it's probably one of my favourite sourcebooks, well-worth my money.





DM[F]R

[Aharon]

I knew there had to be a better way than multiclassing to something not actually needed. Thanks Biffonacius!

[SaintRidley]

Simple:

Q: Do you have Telepathy?

If so, you're eligible.

The feat basically takes your telepathy range, and gives you a special sense. You detect what square anything with a mind is in, as long as it's within that telepathy range. You also know its intelligence score.

Put into a more fun way of saying it:

"I know that you're sixty-five feet behind me, you invisible Drow. Judging by the fact that you seem to be sneaking, I imagine you're probably planning to kill me in some fashion. Whatever you're planning, though, I suggest you abandon your current plan in favour of something more conducive to your survival. You should be smart enough to understand the implications of my ability to perceive your presence while facing the other direction and my utter complacency at the fact that you are there. Also, the fact that I'm speaking into your mind is probably a good indication that you have chosen a mark far beyond your abilities."

or:

"Behind that door are three ogres and a half-ogre. Exercise caution and try to confuse them; they aren't particularly bright, even for their kind."

[SpikeFightwicky]

My only problem with the book was that I got my copy from an odd production batch. The book smelled funny (kind of like the 'new book' smell, but more chemical. It reminded of the smell the 2nd ed. AD&D Domains of Dread Ravenloft suppliment has faintly noticeable even 15 years later :smallsmile:, but much stronger -> if anyone knows what I'm talking about, 10 Internet cookies shall be awarded) and many of the pages weren't cut properly. Many pages stuck together at the edges, with only the very tips sticking together, kind of like when a pizza slice isn't sliced quite deep enough. When I was manually seperating the pages, the other players in the group gave me shocked looks 'cuz they thought I was ripping the book apart (an agonizing ripping sound accompanied every page, though no actual damage took place).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Put into a more fun way of saying it:

"I know that you're sixty-five feet behind me, you invisible Drow Humanoid (Elf). Judging by the fact that you seem to be sneaking, I imagine you're probably planning to kill me in some fashion. Whatever you're planning, though, I suggest you abandon your current plan in favour of something more conducive to your survival. You should be smart enough to understand the implications of my ability to perceive your presence while facing the other direction and my utter complacency at the fact that you are there. Also, the fact that I'm speaking into your mind is probably a good indication that you have chosen a mark far beyond your abilities."

or:

"Behind that door are three ogres and a half-ogre four giants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#giantType). Exercise caution and try to confuse them; they aren't particularly bright, even for their kind."

Fixed that for you. It reveals the being's type and intelligence, type being creature type and possibly subtypes, but not their specific race.

[Pluto]

Ocular Spell and Fleshwarper are made of sunshine and rainbows.
(assuming you fix Graft Flesh to be usable in a low- to mid-level game)

And I use Sanctified Mind, Darkstalker and Keeper of the Cerulean Sign a lot.

But I can't really disagree with the OP in general sentiment. The fluff wasn't especially grabby and the Monster section was kind of dull (and those were the aspects of the book I was hoping to see when I picked it up off the shelf).

I think what I wanted was 200 pages of material like the Illithids of Thoon. I don't think LoM quite delivers that.

[PhoenixRivers]

Put into a more fun way of saying it:

"I know that you're sixty-five feet behind me, you invisible Drow. Judging by the fact that you seem to be sneaking, I imagine you're probably planning to kill me in some fashion. Whatever you're planning, though, I suggest you abandon your current plan in favour of something more conducive to your survival. You should be smart enough to understand the implications of my ability to perceive your presence while facing the other direction and my utter complacency at the fact that you are there. Also, the fact that I'm speaking into your mind is probably a good indication that you have chosen a mark far beyond your abilities."

or:

"Behind that door are three ogres and a half-ogre. Exercise caution and try to confuse them; they aren't particularly bright, even for their kind."

The drow would get "Medium Humanoid" (square and creature type). You don't get subtype or race.

Ogres would get: "4 Large Giants"

[Oslecamo]

Don't forget darkstalker, a great feat for rogues as it allows them to actualy hide from monsters with super senses like blindsight and tremorsense!

Also gotta love mouthpick weapons.:smallbiggrin:

[Curmudgeon]

My favorite contribution from Lords of Madness is the Darkstalker feat. It just irks me that the same book that introduced Mindsight didn't bother to include that as something Darkstalker would let you Hide from, even if they made doing so conditional on an ability like still mind or slippery mind.

EDIT: Since Ninjas are clearly afoot, add ghost mind to those abilities that should allow Darkstalker to foil Mindsight. :smallwink:

[sonofzeal]

Just got finished reading and I thought it sucked.
The PrCs and most feats for humans sucked.
Most of the monsters it gave stats for were unoriginal.
The fluff on the major aberrations useless (does not fit with eberron).
And they give only a few sentences on etherguants.
Totally not worth the money.
- The PrCs are reliably decent (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0) (one of the most reliable sources printed, actually)

- The Aberration feats are sometimes useful (flight for two feats is not bad), and Darkstalker is amazing.

- The fluff on the major aberrations is quite good if you're not Eberron

- They may have ignored Ethergaunts, but the whole chapter on Tsochari makes up for it. I've done an entire Tsochari campaign in Eberron, and it's one of the best I've run.

[Oslecamo]

- The fluff on the major aberrations is quite good if you're not Eberron


Nitpick, but any aberration fluff is superior to the monstruosity they came up with for Eberron (pun intended).

Mind flayers go from scheming masterminds to hobbo minions.

Beholders go from from mad mighty tyrants to dull glorified meat cannons.

This is, how much lower you can drop? If they had put beholders as bathroom cleaner slaves and mind flayers as herd animals and a delicious delicacy, it would've been superior to the oficial eberron fluff!

[PhoenixRivers]

My favorite contribution from Lords of Madness is the Darkstalker feat. It just irks me that the same book that introduced Mindsight didn't bother to include that as something Darkstalker would let you Hide from, even if they made doing so conditional on an ability like still mind or slippery mind.

EDIT: Since Ninjas are clearly afoot, add ghost mind to those abilities that should allow Darkstalker to foil Mindsight. :smallwink:

Since ninjas are afoot, note that planar boundaries block most telepathy, and as such, mindsight. Ethereal ninjas can foil it.

[Optimystik]

It's also not clear whether Mind Blank should block it or not - talk to your DM.

[TheYoungKing]

Lords of Madness is not wholly incompatible with Eberron. While the included history most certainly is, all of the fluff on society and mindset is not too far removed.

Also, the Silmilar (IIRC) are awesome, and would have deserved a whole chapter. But that was my only qualm with Lords of Madness.

[Jair Barik]

I think its a great book.
I really like a number of the creatures, have run the Beholder dungeon as a one shot, find some of the fluff very good and useful (though there could be more details on Skum) think the Neogi and Tsochari are great (head bursting Tsochari really freaked out some players. 'You smash the wizards head off and a writhing mass of tentacles spill out ripping his torso in half and moving across the room towards you' Brilliant). I think the Aberration feats are good quality (stretchy arms+spiked chain+large size and whirlwind attack is funny against hordes).

[Volthawk]

Lords of Madness is not wholly incompatible with Eberron. While the included history most certainly is, all of the fluff on society and mindset is not too far removed.

Also, the Silmilar (IIRC) are awesome, and would have deserved a whole chapter. But that was my only qualm with Lords of Madness.

It's Silthilar, and yes, they are awesome. POA at-will...

[Darius Rae]

The tsochar are cool, but I am more fond of the Mind Flayers and the Grell or any aberration with a taste for brains and psionics.

[Inyssius Tor]

The included fluff is most certainly not incompatible with Eberron.

Like, at all.

Let's see...

The Deep Masters believe that they came into existence at the beginning of time. Okay. Whatever spawned them was unknowable by nature, so there's really nothing to contradict--it's not as if the aberrations of Eberron all sprang into existence at a fixed point in the past, before which there were none. Perhaps this Piscaethces was a monstrosity from Xoriat. Perhaps she was something else, unrelated to the whole planar cosmology, just passing through Eberron's cosmological sphere in a hailstorm of aberrant horrors. Perhaps she was Khyber herself, the mother of monsters. Or, hell, perhaps she was a rather disturbing way of referring to Xoriat itself--that would fit with what little is spoken of her in the book. In any case, no changes needed.

Other bits of Chapter 2:
Stygian Aboleths transported themselves to another plane via magic, where they were altered over time to fit. Pretty standard occurrence in Eberron; and though the Nine Hells usually aren't a plane in themselves Shavarath does a capable job of taking up the slack (or Mabar or Fernia or what-have-you, if preferred). No changes needed.
The primal empire... well, there was the Age of Fiends, a hellish and very long aeon of boiling seas and choking skies, eternal night, truly vast oceanic gulfs, twisted monstrosities, et cetera et cetera et cetera. Or, you know, the aboleths are known for aquatic empires.... the history of the seas is entirely uncharted, and who knows what empires may have risen or fallen in those abyssal depths?
The Elder Evils, if they exist? Daelkyr lords. Or deific horrors of Xoriat origin, perhaps more powerful even than the daelkyr. Alone, at least--maybe the daelkyr could have tamed them through sheer force of numbers. Maybe they could have broken free in the daelkyr's war. Maybe the daelkyr still hold some means to control them. Sounds like a campaign seed, no?

The Eye Tyrants believe they were spawned on one of the Outer Planes (Xoriat, obviously) by a primal deity of godlike power, about which even they know nothing. If this "Great Mother" exists, which is by no means certain, she probably still lives in Xoriat if she hasn't chewed a hole in the cosmology and gone off elsewhere. Or she could not exist at all, and simply be a shared obsession of all beholders because the daelkyr thought it would be funnier that way. Or she could be a muddled remembrance of the daelkyr who made them, or the archetype they were copied from, or the daelkyr-womb that spawned them, or the prototype beholder from which their whole lineage sprung. Could be any of those, or something else. Either way, no changes needed.

The Mind Flayers think they're from the future. Interesting idea; they never did seem to fit quite right with the whole daelkyr story. Maybe it's true, and the ones known to serve the daelkyr were either suborned or cheap daelkyr-made knockoffs. I wonder how these preordained conquerors interact with the Draconic Prophecy? Sounds like a campaign seed to me. No changes needed.

The Slave Takers are unknown in origin--it says that right on page 89. Perhaps they came from Xoriat. Perhaps they came from a Xoriat coterminous zone in the deep Ethereal or Astral. (Forgot about those, eh? They do still exist in Eberron!) Perhaps they came from beyond Eberron's moons, a space that never has been detailed. Heh--if the cosmology holds steady beyond the moons, perhaps they came from a Xoriat coterminous zone on another planet! In any case, you guessed it, no changes needed.

Other bits of Chapter 4:
What's that, you say? There isn't enough space on Eberron for a surface-dwelling race of slavers like that? Then they're most common in Sarlona. Problem solved. :smallamused:


The Eaters crossed into the material plane from a distant and horrible realm of madness. I wonder where that (http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Xoriat) could possibly have been. No changes needed.

The Wearers of Flesh cross into the material plane from a distant and horrible realm of madness, through only-sporadically-active gates torn open long ago through vast and terrible magic. Gee, that doesn't sound like anything in Eberron, does it? :smallconfused: No changes needed.

New Monsters... mostly a collection of disparate aberrations, for whom no changes are needed. The silthilar? Maybe they existed before the giants, or in pre-Inspired Sarlona, or in pre-goblinoid Eberron, or in pre-dragon-cult Seren, or in some part of Argonnessen's vast and totally blank historical slate, or in (or from) either of Eberron's (rather nondescript, in my opinion) wilderness planes (or any of Eberron's other planes, for that matter). Maybe they're an ancient druid sect that didn't work out so well. Hell, maybe they're some twisted remnant of the giants or couatl; that would be interesting. Any of the above would work; and in any of the above cases--can you guess what I'm about to say this time? I bet you can--no changes needed.

The Aberration Hunter is as well-off as everything else in the book. Cerulean Sign? Maybe something unrelated to established Eberron lore (associated with Syberis? Interesting thought). Or maybe an alternative expression of the couatls' sacrifice, of that mighty force for the containment or destruction of evil which has also been called the Silver Flame.
Society of the Sanctified Mind? Sounds like a kalashtar organization to me. Could be something else, though--there are psions in Eberron, you know. Maybe an offshoot of the Blood of Vol? They're not all vampires and undead monstrosities, you know; it's also a respectable religion with an admirable creed, and a fairly common one too. That would be an interesting twist, and dovetails nicely with the plot hooks on pages 200-202.
Holy Order of the Supernal Topaz Defenders? Maybe a Sovereign offshoot, or another Path of Light thing. Sounds more like a branch of the Silver Flame to me, though. Or, of course, it could be its own thing. Remember that there are many faiths in Eberron, even if they don't all get top billing.

[Geiger Counter]

Okay I did like some of the feats for improving monsters.

That mindsight feat is ridiculously overpowered and easy to get if your a beguiler with one level in mindbender.

They had an entire chapter devoted to grell, pointing out their mages are heavy into philosophy without ever mentioning any particular philosophy they follow.

That weird PrC that says it's for a buffer, yet specializes in improving damage dealing spells.

I haven't really found any grafts I'd want my players to have, the beholder graft sounds interesting but wasn't even included in the book. :smallfurious:

I was pretty much aware of 90% of the fluff they outlined for aboleths, mindflayers and beholders. If that information was first revealed in LoM than I have to give the book a thumbs up, but if they just put down everything that was already established in previous material than I have to give this book a thumbs down.

[Inyssius Tor]

I was pretty much aware of 90% of the fluff they outlined for aboleths, mindflayers and beholders. If that information was first revealed in LoM than I have to give the book a thumbs up, but if they just put down everything that was already established in previous material than I have to give this book a thumbs down.

Give it an iffy sideways palm waggle, then, because it's a mix of both.

[The Cat Goddess]

Human Paragon levels could also be used to get into Fleshwarper rather quickly...

[SaintRidley]

They had an entire chapter devoted to grell, pointing out their mages are heavy into philosophy without ever mentioning any particular philosophy they follow.


Pretty sure (book not on me) that the Grell just call their wizards philosophers.


And apologies regarding my understanding of Mindsight. The analogy about the information being as obvious as race made me think, well, that race was one of those obvious things to it.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I haven't really found any grafts I'd want my players to have, the beholder graft sounds interesting but wasn't even included in the book. :smallfurious:

Beholder Grafts can be found in Fiend Folio.

[true_shinken]

Darkstalker and Inhuman Reach are pretty good feats, the book is well written and all.

[~LuckyBoneDice~]

One feat: Aberrant Wildshape. That's the only reason to pick this book up. Think about it: Wildshape into a Mindwitness

[Amphetryon]

Darkstalker... Quick Recovery... honestly this is one of my favorite splats.

[AslanCross]

The included fluff is most certainly not incompatible with Eberron.

Like, at all.

Let's see...

The Deep Masters believe that they came into existence at the beginning of time. Okay. Whatever spawned them was unknowable by nature, so there's really nothing to contradict--it's not as if the aberrations of Eberron all sprang into existence at a fixed point in the past, before which there were none. Perhaps this Piscaethces was a monstrosity from Xoriat. Perhaps she was something else, unrelated to the whole planar cosmology, just passing through Eberron's cosmological sphere in a hailstorm of aberrant horrors. Perhaps she was Khyber herself, the mother of monsters. Or, hell, perhaps she was a rather disturbing way of referring to Xoriat itself--that would fit with what little is spoken of her in the book. In any case, no changes needed.



Actually, WOTC came out with an article that had the Aboleths are to the seas what the Rakshasa are to land. They're Khyber spawn.

[Inyssius Tor]

Actually, WOTC came out with an article that had the Aboleths are to the seas what the Rakshasa are to land. They're Khyber spawn.

Yeah, I found that one (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebee/20050704a) about halfway through writing my post. I quite liked that article--but then, I like almost anything Keith Baker's written.