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quiet1mi
2010-04-29, 12:39 PM
I was wondering what the playground thought about the feats that bring 2 classes together by letting their class levels stack for certain class features...

An example would be the...
Daring outlaw feat for Swashbucklers and Rogues.
Acetic Mage feat for Sorcerers and Monks.
Acetic Knight feat for Paladin and Monk...
The list goes on...

Which ones are real winners (IE: GOOD) and which ones are real losers (IE: BAD)...

BRC
2010-04-29, 12:48 PM
I have a very fun character who uses the Acetic Rogue feat in an RP/investigation heavy campaign.
Rogue1/Monk1/Rogue the rest of the way. He can walk around (Seemingly) unarmed, his fists count as light weapons for weapon finesse, but they hit harder than any light weapon in the book. He can clock somebody with a stunning fist sneak attack (or, as I did once, a stunning knee to the groin sneak attack).

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-29, 01:29 PM
I know they are from Complete Scoundrel, but Ascetic Stalker (ninja/monk) and Master Spellthief (Spellthief/Arcane caster) are worth mentioning

pilvento
2010-04-29, 01:43 PM
sorcerer+monk build + 3lvls in enlightned fist + swiftblade = WIN

darning outlaw is a very good choise to for spellcasting rouge prestige classes like assasin

FMArthur
2010-04-29, 01:44 PM
Two more from CS that are awesome are Swift Hunter and Swift Ambusher, which lets Ranger and Rogue, respectively, count as Scout levels for Skirmish. Both are way better than sticking with Scout, IMO. That would make them poorly designed feats, but they're more like patches to a poorly designed class.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-29, 01:45 PM
sorcerer+monk build + 3lvls in enlightned fist + swiftblade = WIN

darning outlaw is a very good choice to for spellcasting rouge prestige classes like assassin

I think for one, Sorcerer/Monks are underpowered (even with ascetic mage) because there's no PrC that encompasses that really...

Daring Outlaw makes deadly Scarlet Corsairs, Dread Pirates, and Legendary Captains

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-29, 01:47 PM
Two more from CS that are awesome are Swift Hunter and Swift Ambusher, which lets Ranger and Rogue, respectively, count as Scout levels for Skirmish. Both are way better than sticking with Scout, IMO. That would make them poorly designed feats, but they're more like patches to a poorly designed class.

Much like Psitheif and Master Spellthief. Fixes for a crappy class (spellthief was average at best, and don't get me started on scout...)

Person_Man
2010-04-29, 02:17 PM
None of them are particularly good. In each case, you're delaying or denying yourself the high level abilities of each class. For example, a Swift Hunter (one of the more popular and potent feats) typically nerfs the Ranger's casting and Animal Companion, and delays Evasion, Camouflage, Hide in Plain Site. I'm sure there are some good counter examples for specific builds at specific ECLs, but for the most part I avoid them.

Optimystik
2010-04-29, 02:24 PM
Master Spellthief is the best one in the bunch, though it's not in CAdv.

jiriku
2010-04-29, 02:41 PM
None of them are particularly good. In each case, you're delaying or denying yourself the high level abilities of each class. For example, a Swift Hunter (one of the more popular and potent feats) typically nerfs the Ranger's casting and Animal Companion, and delays Evasion, Camouflage, Hide in Plain Site. I'm sure there are some good counter examples for specific builds at specific ECLs, but for the most part I avoid them.

To expand on Person_Man's post, they are best-suited for situations where a) you don't expect to see high-level play where the base classes in question get their most potent abilities or b) you have a prestige class in mind that would require multi-classing anyway, and will provide its own level-appropriate high-level abilities.

Godskook
2010-04-29, 03:19 PM
In a L20 build, Ascetic Mage is a great feat. Totally worth the caster level for that +10 or greater AC in light armor that dipping unarmed swordsage 1 gets you. In a gestalt Sorcerer build, it seems like a given.

The problem is, its a lot harder to justify the dip in an actual game cause sorcerers are already half a spell level behind as they are. And qualifying without the dip isn't pleasant, due to IUS being a wasted feat on most sorcerers.

Divide by Zero
2010-04-29, 03:36 PM
In a L20 build, Ascetic Mage is a great feat. Totally worth the caster level for that +10 or greater AC in light armor that dipping unarmed swordsage 1 gets you. In a gestalt Sorcerer build, it seems like a given.

Swordsage doesn't get the AC bonus until level 2.

Godskook
2010-04-29, 04:11 PM
Swordsage doesn't get the AC bonus until level 2.

Why do I always forget this? I'd still take a 2-level dip to get it, though.