[3.5] Err... Spelladin?

[Pechvarry]

I googled Spelladin. I got a bunch of what looks like WoW results. That's not what I'm after (I've never even watched someone play that game). EDIT: I know what a Sorcadin is. It's not what I'm after.

For some time now, I've had this idea in the back of my mind for a spellcasting-focused Paladin attempting to play the Tank role.

Here's the basics of what I've got:

Paladin (Mystic Fire Knight - levels 5 and 6 for sure. not sure about 4)(CoV)

1 Serenity (even though I don't have this magazine...), ???
3 ???
6 Sword of the Arcane Order (CoV)
9 Battle Blessing (CC)
12 Practiced Spellcaster (Paladin)
???
Profit
I'd like to see a skeleton put together up to 20, but I want it viable at all or at least most levels.

The crux is the basic trick of Battle Blessing + Wizard spells. Since Sword of the Arcane Order specifies you're preparing wizard spells in paladin slots, I'm under the assumption they're remaining Divine spells. The bad: no funny Ajburant Champion, etc. The good: no spell failure.

As much as I like the idea of swift Benign Transposition to get in where its hot and still have my turn... this build simply won't have enough spell slots to keep it up.

Options I'm considering:
-Level 4 Mystic Fire Knight level for a few extra spells lots and increased which almost requires me to...
-Find some other means of obtaining Turn Undead. Prc? Sacred Exorcist isn't accessible 'til 17. Cleric and take the hit to Paladin caster growth?
-Just normal Paladin 4 seems smart.
-Assuming Turn undead, Retrieve Spell (CC). Requires 2 other divine feats. Practically demands Ordained Champion.
-Assuming Turn Undead, Divine Defiance (FC2). Could use clarification on how it works (doesn't seem to expend the prepared spell; does it even require a CL check?) and may suck hard with pally, but it seems like a pretty nifty way to tank since it not only affects the in-game minds of your opponents, it also metagames your DM into targetting you so his casters can do more.
-Find other ways to get more spell slots or ways to stretch out what spells I do cast (dang Dimension Jumper being 5th level!)
-Find mundane combos/feat selections that would help this character tank when not relying on spell power. Any way to help get my 2 most important feats quicker?
-Some RKV for shadow hand teleports?
-Trade in mount for something? Maybe the spirits from Dungeonscape? Pretty sure I can convince DM to let the Swift Call feat apply to them.

Any ideas that can help the above? Build order?

If you want to share a build that does the same thing, go for it. But I don't care about anything with Prestige Paladin (no, it doesn't qualify for Battle Blessing in my world) or DMM-anything (FOREVERBANNED). And I've played and seen enough gishies that I think I'd like to avoid arcane entanglement.

All sources welcome, dragon magazine less so. Please cite, though.

[Pluto]

1. The SotAO spells are Arcane Spells. (They're explicitly Wizard spells, not just spells from the wizard's spellbook. Wizard spells are Arcane Spells.)

2. Battle Blessing doesn't quicken SotAO spells. (It hastens a subset of Paladin spells. SotAO spells are Wizard spells.)

Why not just multiclass Paladin/Wizard (or Paladin/Sorcerer)? You'd lose a couple points of BA, but you'd be able to do about the same things, but a whole lot earlier and a whole lot better.

Pally 2/Caster 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8 is pretty standard, has all the defining Paladin abilities, has 18 levels of arcane casting and can do its thing more than 3 fights per day.

[T.G. Oskar]

That's because "Spelladin" is a bad looking term.

I've seen a build pretty close to what you want, which is comprised of Paladin, Sorcerer, Spellsword, Abjurant Champion and one other class. Look for it at "Sorcadin".

I have a method that *might* work a bit, but it depends on your cheese tolerance. It gets 9th level spells and potential BAB 16, which is what you might be looking for. It doesn't use Sword of the Arcane Order, though.

[ErrantX]

I second Pluto here.

Sorcadins are quite amazing (his above build using sorcerer casting as the base) due to high Charisma synergy. Wizard wouldn't have as much synergy, but hey, you're still a wizard. :P

-X

[gorfnab]

{Scrubbed. Don't link there.}
Other than that there may some insights in the Paladin's Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870162/The_Paladins_Handbook_--_2007).

[Kobold-Bard]

...Pally 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8 is pretty standard, has all the defining Paladin abilities, has 18 levels of arcane casting and can do its thing more than 3 fights per day.

Basically this. Your Saves will be crazy high. Take Arcane Domain (War) and you get Divine Power for if you ever really need the couple of lost BAB (which you shouldn't really).

[TheThan]

Paladin/cleric gestalt does exactly what you want. (or paladin/sorcerer if you don’t have enough high stats, but your armor will get penalized.

[Pechvarry]

I'm familiar with Sorcadin. It's not what I'm after -- I've seen it used extensively.

I see "use Wizard spells in Paladin slots" which means they're now paladin spells, ergo battle blessing-able. Then again, I see how this perspective is paradoxical to the belief that a prestige paladin couldn't use battle blessing.

More importantly, my group's pretty lenient with RAI. If I say "I want them divine", they'll say "ok, but you can't qualify for stuff as if arcane."

It's silly, but what I'm after is the tactical casting combatant. Not a game of deciding which "I win" button to press or even the super self-buffer. If I can hit tier 4 or even 3 effectiveness, I'm happy. Something about crossing into 6th levels spells makes me itchy.

But now that I'm basing a build off of RAI, I can see how it'd make the rest of you itchy...

Also, thanks for the link. Looks like he wouldn't grab Serenity 'til 3rd level.

[TheYoungKing]

If you're in a group open to the brew, I'd look at Sublime Chord for some inspiration. Makes the Bard a full caster, and a good variant could do what you intend with the Paladin.

[T.G. Oskar]

Paladin/cleric gestalt does exactly what you want. (or paladin/sorcerer if you don’t have enough high stats, but your armor will get penalized.

There are several ways around it.

First, Twilight Mithral Full Plate, for best protection. Of course, that's expensive...

So we get to the Spellsword's ASF reduction, which is around a 10% reduction. Of course, that's small, so you go to the next option:

The Luminous Armor spell, from Book of Exalted Deeds. The latter is a spell much like Mage Armor, but it's an abjuration spell, so it stacks with the bonus on abjuration spells and Griffon Feather (or Gryphon Feather, from Complete Champion IIRC. Better protection than a full plate in the end (much better if you were to get Greater Luminous Armor), and while you can't use it as a Sorcerer, you can use it as a Paladin (if you have a high enough Wis to get a 1st level spell slot). Furthermore, since as a Paladin you "prepare" spells, you can use it as a scroll (and thus, you can have access to Greater Luminous Armor, but only through a caster level check, which has its risks). But then again, it's BoED, so...

There are options, but not so strong. Paladin/Cleric has Magic Vestment and no problems with armor, which is a plus.

[Godskook]

The Luminous Armor spell, from Book of Exalted Deeds. The latter is a spell much like Mage Armor, but it's an abjuration spell, so it stacks with the bonus on abjuration spells and Griffon Feather (or Gryphon Feather, from Complete Champion IIRC. Better protection than a full plate in the end (much better if you were to get Greater Luminous Armor), and while you can't use it as a Sorcerer, you can use it as a Paladin (if you have a high enough Wis to get a 1st level spell slot). Furthermore, since as a Paladin you "prepare" spells, you can use it as a scroll (and thus, you can have access to Greater Luminous Armor, but only through a caster level check, which has its risks). But then again, it's BoED, so...

Arcane Preperation - Granting Sorcerers access to all the preparation-only options since 2004.

Also, Arcane Disciple(War) is not as good a choice as Persistent Spell. Persistent Wraith Strike will solve a lot more problems than Divine Power will, after all, and Persistent Mirror Move is a great way to qualify for a Heroics(Shock Trooper) spell.

@OP, if you go Sorcadin, you're going to want to decide how you're burning through your turn attempts, and you're going to want to know your DM's position on nightsticks stacking. If they do, feel free to add more than one option to the build, but the typical choices are Law Devotion, Travel Devotion, and Divine Might.

[Pluto]

But now that I'm basing a build off of RAI, I can see how it'd make the rest of you itchy...
Battle Blessing was written with the intent of comboing it with an obscure region-specific feat in a setting-specific splatbook? :smallconfused:


It's silly, but what I'm after is the tactical casting combatant. Not a game of deciding which "I win" button to press or even the super self-buffer. If I can hit tier 4 or even 3 effectiveness, I'm happy. Something about crossing into 6th levels spells makes me itchy.

I think Spell Domain (SpC)/Divine Magician (CM) Cleric would be better, no matter what you're doing.

Paladin 2/Cleric 10/Warrior 8 would have a comparable framework to your straight paladin (higher saves, slightly lower BA, comparable HP, 2 extra feats), but would have much better casting (starts earlier, reaches same CL) and less MAD. It doesn't lose any class abilities of note. Something along those lines could work.

[Tinydwarfman]

But now that I'm basing a build off of RAI, I can see how it'd make the rest of you itchy...


:smallannoyed: Nice, asking for help and then insulting the very people you asked for help from...

[Prodan]

Who are we to criticize his knowledge of RAI?

[The Glyphstone]

Maybe he's an alter ego of Gleemax imprinted onto Gary Gygax's preserved brain?

[Pechvarry]

Battle Blessing was written with the intent of comboing it with an obscure region-specific feat in a setting-specific splatbook? :smallconfused:

What did I miss? If wizard spells are now paladin spells, then said paladin could use battle blessing on them. I understand your problem with it. I even pointed out my own inaccuracy in my interpretation. Why are you trying to make me seem like an idiot?


:smallannoyed: Nice, asking for help and then insulting the very people you asked for help from...

Similarly, when I realized this build had questionable interpretations, I admitted I was making it harder for you guys. I guess I can see that you didn't catch my joking way of saying "well, I understand and thanks anyway, guys." Forgive me for ever trying to convey that in a lighthearted manner. However, i can't understand how you derived an insult from that.


Who are we to criticize his knowledge of RAI?

I never once pushed my RAI on any of you and said "that's how it should be played".

Maybe next you'll decide since I read a feat differently, the fact that I'm wearing glasses should be called attention to in an insulting way. That method has been tried and proven across generations of elementary school kids.

Cue "whoah calm down" responses.

[Pechvarry]

I think Spell Domain (SpC)/Divine Magician (CM) Cleric would be better, no matter what you're doing.

I just looked up Divine Magician. Fascinating. I think I could make a pretty fun build with it and some more melee-oriented PrC (the goal actually being to *lose* power over straight Cleric is a bit weird, though...)

Thanks for the heads up on that.

[Tinydwarfman]

Similarly, when I realized this build had questionable interpretations, I admitted I was making it harder for you guys. I guess I can see that you didn't catch my joking way of saying "well, I understand and thanks anyway, guys." Forgive me for ever trying to convey that in a lighthearted manner. However, i can't understand how you derived an insult from that.

I never once pushed my RAI on any of you and said "that's how it should be played".

Maybe next you'll decide since I read a feat differently, the fact that I'm wearing glasses should be called attention to in an insulting way. That method has been tried and proven across generations of elementary school kids.

Cue "whoah calm down" responses.

Sorry about that, my mistake entirely. From my PoV, you said that you didn't want any uber-cheesy builds (still not exactly sure why you were thinking the suggested builds were uber-cheesy), and then proceeded to say that us forum-goers would be uncomfortable with playing playing by RAI instead of RAW, which was insulting. I see that I completely misconstrued "
But now that I'm basing a build off of RAI, I can see how it'd make the rest of you itchy...", and I apologize. All better?:smallsmile:

[Pechvarry]

Thank you. I feel better, now. :)

[Pluto]

What did I miss? If wizard spells are now paladin spells, then said paladin could use battle blessing on them. I understand your problem with it. I even pointed out my own inaccuracy in my interpretation. Why are you trying to make me seem like an idiot?
RAI=Rules as Intended, by every definition I've seen or used.

It looked like you were using a ridiculous claim about the writers' intent to justify munchkinry - something that really rubs me the wrong way, even when the abuse isn't all that bad.

Sorry about that.

[Pechvarry]

Oups! I can see how that'd be a problem. I was thinking "Rules As Interpreted". Amazing how much of a difference that makes.