Test of Spite [3.5]

[Test Of Spite]

Hello, I am an angry man.
Perhaps you too, are angry? Bitter? Seeking some sort of vindication in a large world spiraling oddly away from you?

~Jake, Summer, 09


Crack open that tube full of dice.
Like the similarly named Test of Might run by the altogether-better-person Akuma, this is a thread about explorations of the further edges of game performance. We will be running a slightly altered rules set, for which I have reserved a post below this one. The crux of the challenge is that you are presented with a dungeon and must navigate through its preliminary challenges to kill each other. I hear this is a popular past-time.



Season 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7503776)
Season 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6885289#post6885289)
Season 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113644)

First, players must survive a 1v1 or 2v2 match against a willing opponent.
Hence the name, test of spite. Your punishment for seeking satisfaction through violence will become apparent thereafter.

Surviving players will be released into the PvP dungeon section which exists as a subset of Ravenloft. There, they must make the necessary allegiances, preparations, or other decisions regarding who they will work with in an effort to reach the center of the arena where they will be tested against each other in mortal combat. The Dark Powers that run this arena are not amused by attempts to throw the game, however, so be prepared for serious OOC bargaining to get your ingame toon eaten by the hounds of tindalos. Naturally, warnings will be provided.

Upon navigation of the dungeon, you will reach the final arena, where matches may be 1v1 or 2v2 as negotiated in game. Victory will register you as the current incumbents, and you may rest before facing the onslaught of other people who complete the dungeon. Three victories allows you to escape Ravenloft, and with it, the arena.


Sign-ups can be done here, but primarily this is a thread for the comments and questions.
Starting level is 13th, with full EWL as per 135 in the DMG.
All WotC books allowed barring contraindication in the rules provided below.
Infinite loops are permitted to trigger precisely once, after which your character will be killed by the hounds of tindalos.
Make sure it was worth it.
Those who get an infinite loop past me during character creation will receive special mention in the halls of honor.
Attempts to use the infinite loop in either the final arena or the starting arena will result in summary consumption by hungry hungry hound dogs, but you will receive a commendation in the halls of honor, though your opponent will be counted as victorious if it is a 1v1.


A quick summary of the tier ranking system, colloquially..


Here's the ToS Tier System as I remember it:

Tier -2: Pun Pun

Tier -1: An unbeatable build.

Tier 0: An effectively unbeatable build, though it can actually be beaten by the higher Tiers.

Tier .5: A build that can probably only be beaten if you have specifically prepared for it. Example: Sofawall's Cube build.

Tier 1: A build that has many effective tricks, insanely high defenses, and can end most encounters in a round. Example: A very effectively played Batman wizard.

Tier 2: Multiple great tricks and great defenses. Where I usually build for. Example: A CoDzilla or a Warmarked.

Tier 3: A build that either has one great trick or a lot of moderately good ones, while still having stellar defenses. Example: A well made Warblade, a good tripper, or a buff focused Sorcerer.

Tier 4: A build that, while still having a trick or two, has fallen very short on the defensive side of the line or has great defenses without being able to defeat an opponent on its own very easily. Example: A Charging Fighter or a VoP Monkadin.

Tier 5: A build that, while attempting to be optimized, still has neither good defenses nor a worthwile trick. Example: A typical fighter.

Tier 6: A build that *twitch* chooses feats for flavor reasons *twitch*



Submit Your Sheet For Approval (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/sendmessage.php?do=mailmember&u=46222)
Sign Up && Match-Making (http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AodLcxsM7Nx0dFZwQmtxUTNXQllSN2dIX01waElaR 0E&hl=en)
Dungeon Waiting List (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYdLcxsM7Nx0ZGc2NzhibjNfNjBnNnJuY3I2Mg&hl=en)

[Test Of Spite]

Arena Format
There are three major choices involved in the opening arena segment. These are on a match-by-match basis.
|_____________________________________|

First:


You may opt to use the swapping terrain placement schema used by most war-games to generate an arena.
You may opt to have me randomly generate an arena.
You may opt to have a standard and known arena used.

Second:

You may opt to have no buffs active.
You may opt to have all-day buffs active, with All-Day buffs being those with longer than 12 hours duration.
You may opt to have prepared for the encounter in general terms.
You may opt to ask three questions, specific, as per Contact Other Plane, about the opposition, and prepare all-day buffs accordingly. This option is not recommended. It is provided for the sake of completeness.
Third:

You may opt to disallow summons and called or bought creatures.
You may opt to disallow the above during the buff rounds.
You may opt to allow the above during buff rounds and declare the allowance thereof.
Finally:

Each set of opposition may come to a consensus about these options.
You may yield one set of choices at random to the opposition.
You may place your fate in my terrible clutches.



3.51 Rules Updates
The following are the character generation rules for the Test of Spite.
Help with optimization is available. Please do not be intimidated by the list of changes
|_____________________________________|
You begin with 78k XP, sufficient to place your level at 13th.
HP is Max for first level, then average HP.
No Fractional BAB or Saves
Up to 1 Trait and 2 flaws
No Action Points.
No LA above +1.
28 Point buy.

Any XP spent is deducted from your total.
As such, your total class levels will reflect this.
XP will be gained during your stay
LA Buy-off allowed.



3.51 Fix and Ban List

The Great Rules:

Per round, no more than the following is permitted:

Two full round actions Or three full attacks per character
Three Standard actions per character
Three Move actions per character
Two Swift actions per character
Thirty Free actions per character
Immediates count against your maximum of swifts


Per round, no more than the following is permitted per minion, familiar, or companion:

One full round action.
Two Standard actions.
Two Move actions.
One Swift actions.
Ten Free actions.
Immediates count against the maximum of swifts



General :


You may gain membership benefits from only one organization with mechanical benefits. If the organization possesses an Affiliation score mechanic, you are treated as a member of rank two (2).
Aasimar and similarly all native outsiders do not grant weapon proficiencies for the purposes of class qualification.
Rebuilding rules are banned as variants.
Greensnake Naga's telepathy is considered to have a 30 foot range for the purposes of mindsight.
Dragonlance's dragonspawn templates are banned.
Ghostwalk's LA+0 ghost template is banned, unless your opponent is also using it.
Feats, abilities, and other benefits granted by spells or items may not be used to fulfill any requirement. This excludes Psychic Reformation and similar instantaneous effects.
All forms of awaken are banned.
Splitting and similar effects copy only the item, not positive effects currently on it.
Due to the ongoing interference of the Dark Powers, divinely granted templates are not permitted in ravenloft, and all who have them are stripped of them, with the exclusion of saint which they rightly find hilarious.
Undead are not immune to mind-affecting spells.
Kobolds may not qualify for lore-drake.
Dusk Giants do not exist.
Gem Magic, from Magic of Faerun, is banned.
Each character may use only one magical location.
Mention of the sarrukh should be followed by your home address ;)
Shambling mounds do not exist.
You may not order a creature or player to fail a save in any fashion.
Initiate of Mystra is banned. Really. Really. Banned.
Pazuzu does not exist.
You may have one clone, and it must be on Ravenloft. Clones are 14k.
The Far Realms do not exist.
Creation of hive-minds through any mechanism is banned.
Time Travel is soft-banned, in that where-ever you travel to, the hounds will be there. Temporal regression is permitted, but long chains ( x>2 ) are not. Time Hop and similar are permitted.
Faustian Pacts, as described in FCII, are banned.
Bonus hit dice are not counted when leveling up or retraining, nor are they counted by Psychic Reformation and similar effects.
Lost levels restored by Restoration and similar effects must be in the same class or classes in which they were originally taken.



Source Material


Iron Kingdoms material is allowed on a case by case basis.
Dragon and Dungeon Magazine are banned.
Serpent Kingdoms is approval-only material.
Savage Species is approval-only material.
Stronghold Builder's Guide is banned.



Unearthed Arcana :

The following takes the form of an allow list, rather than a ban list.

Flaws and traits.
Variant classes.
Additional Favored Class feat.
Racial paragons.
LA Buy-off.
I may have forgotten things previously allowed. Please ask if you are curious.



q_____________________________________p

Base Classes :


Fighter is banned, excluding dungeoncrasher.
Erudite is banned.
Domain wizards are banned.
Monk is full-bab.
Unarmed swordsage is legal.
All druids are aspect druids as per UA. In addition, all sources of wild shape are banned.
Swordsages gain adaptive style as a bonus feat at level 4. Swordsages also get 6x skill points at first level, despite it being a clear error. Just too cool to take away.
Clerics are not alignment locked.
All clerics are cloistered clerics.
Artificers may only shuffle bonuses between enhancement, insight, and competence.
1d2 crusaders do not exist.
Archivists are limited to the following sources for spells known at start:
Domain lists, Cleric, Druid, Shugenja, Ranger, Paladin, Healer, Adept.
Other divine casters by permission

Banned:
Runescarred Berserker list
Arcane spells turned into divine scrolls by means not covered or permitted by the above.

Focused specialists do not exist.
All prepared casters start with at minimum one spell scribed per level.
Prepared casters should buy every spell they expect to need. Getting more will be ludicrously difficult.



Prestige Classes :


Subverted Psion is banned.
Ultimate Magus cannot progress the same class twice.
If it would do so at a given level, it offers only one level of progress instead. Consider this to be the general rule in similar cases.
Vermin Lord is banned.
Spelldancer is banned.
Walker in the Wastes is banned.
The Magic of Hunger secret of the Black Robes Wizard of High Sorcery is banned.
Arcane Archers may use crossbows.
Rainbow Servant raises caster level as per the text, not the table, with the exception of first and fourth level. In other words, it is a 8/10 casting class.
Planar Shepherd is banned.
Master of Many Forms is impossible to qualify for, or ought to be, and is banned.
Master Transmogrist is impossible to qualify for, or ought to be, and is banned.
Ruby Knight Vindicators may gain only one additional swift action per turn.
Tainted scholar and tainted sorcerer are both banned until a suitable fix is suggested.
Dweomerkeeper is banned.
Cancer mage is banned.
Incantatrix is banned.
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil's veils duplicate the effect of layers, rather than the effects of the whole spell, and are thus subject to dispelling and AMF. Beyond this, the class is unchanged.



Feats :


Epic feats are banned.
Retraining is not permitted except in extraordinary cases where a feat becomes useless.
Lightning Maces is now banned.
Use of body fuel is exhibition only and requires an announce.
Sanctum Spell does not apply for determining if you can affect a spell with items or spells.
Battle Jump is banned.
Adaptive style refreshes your maneuvers.
Mortalbane does not allow stacking uses. Arcane strike does not allow stacking uses. This should be considered precedent.
Item familiars are banned.
Greenbound Summoning is banned.
Mercantile background is banned.
Uncanny forethought is banned.
Arcane thesis affects only the first applied metamagic.
Leadership, Undead Leadership, Thrallherd, and Dragon Cohort are banned. Similar or derivative effects are also banned.
Legendary locations that grant feats are unilaterally excluded from serving as pre-requisites. You may only use one per character.
Extra spell is not list specific, but may be taken precisely once and with DM approval.
Reserves of Strength is banned.
Rapid-strike is banned.
Craft Contingent Spell has double XP costs, these cannot be reduced, and may produce only three contingent spells at a time. The conditions must be as or more exact than contingency normally requires, but no proofing assistance will be offered.
Twin Spell and Twin Power are banned.



Spells, Spell-Like Abilities, Maneuvers, and Powers


Teleportation subschool is now part of the evocation school.
Enchantment and Abjuration are now one school.
Polymorph, alter self, metamorphosis, and all derivatives not specifying a single shape are likewise banned.
Genesis is banned.
Metaconcert is banned.
Use of Body Outside Body must be announced clearly and is exhibition only.
Use of When Two Become One will see you eaten by the hounds.
Beastland Ferocity is banned, being useless except in conjunction with delay death.
Wish is replaced in all ways by Miracle.
Consumptive Field and its derivatives are now banned pending a rewrite.
Forced Dream is banned.
Love's Pain is banned.
Planar Binding and direct derivatives are banned.
Planar Ally and direct derivatives are banned.
Command Undead is banned.
Psionic Lion's Charge now has a duration of one round as intended, instead of the ridiculously stupid instantaneous duration it possessed.
Iron Heart Surge is banned pending a re-write.
Mirror Move is banned.
Explosive runes is banned.
Gate can no longer be used to call or summon.
Energy Transformation Field is banned.
Epic spells are banned.
Leech Ghost Skill is banned.
SLAs are not free of expensive or somatic components.
Embrace\Shun The Dark Chaos is permitted, but cannot be done during character creation. If you can pull it off in the dungeon or the arenas, my commendations await.
Glyph Seals do not accept personal range spells.
There are no free wishes.
Starmantle Cloak and evasion do not stack.
Contingency cannot be cast from a ring of spell storing.
For any ability which creates a contingent effect: All choices normally made at the completion of casting/manifesting/etc must be made when the contingency is created.
Ice assassin's material components cannot be obviated in any fashion.
Anything you bring in via planar binding or ally cannot leave, and will be incredibly angry about this.
Dweomer of Transference only converts spells cast by its caster.
Fusion is banned.
The spell Power Leech is banned.
Simulacrum is banned.
Fimbulwinter is banned.
Mindblank and all derivatives are subject to a caster level check at a penalty dependent on available information.
The Locate Cities trick does not work.
Planeshift does not work, as you are trapped in Ravenloft.
Contact Other Plane and similar effects that use a consultation with a higher power always reach the Dark Powers instead of the intended target. While ungood, this does not negate the spells.
Acorn of Far Travel is banned.
All effects that grant rounds of effective time, such as Time Stop, Temporal Acceleration, and Shadow Time, are banned.
Celerity's dazing effect cannot be obviated even by immunity.
White Raven Tactics may be used precisely once per battle per player.



Metamagic and Metapsionics


Persistent Spell's range requirements can not be obfuscated by any means, including but not limited to Ocular Spell, Reach spell, or any variant thereof. In the case of exhibition matches, Earthbound spell may be allowed.
Extend Spell and Persistent Spell do not stack to result in a 48-hour duration.
Touch range is not a fixed range.
Metamagic costs have a strict minimum value of one, unless the ability specifically reduces them to zero, such as DMM or an alternate cost payment method. Metamagic effects that have a +0 adjustment are unaffected by this.
Split psionic ray must have a target for each new ray it ends up producing.
Alert me if you plan to use Linked Power, and explain why.



Magic Items and Crafting


Magic items are capped at caster level 20th.
Spell Completion and Spell Trigger items can not have metamagic effects unless you are buying a specific printed example.
Dust of sneezing and choking is banned.
Dust of Disappearance is banned due to poor wording.
Items may not be bought at a price reduction. This does not apply to crafting but does prohibit writing a friendly crafter into your backstory, the purchase of partially charged items, the use of curses or item flaws, and similar.
Vorpal is banned.
Aptitude weapons are banned.
Creation costs are:

(Gold, Exp)= (J*(1/2)*Base_price, K*(1/25)*Base_price)
Where K and J are cost reductions from feats or class features and may go no lower than .65
Custom item creation is not permitted except as per the bonus stacking\slot stacking rules in the MiC. This includes traps.
Custom runestaves, weapons, armor, shields, scrolls, scepters, and full-charged wands are in exception to this rule. Staffs are not.
Psionic items may be customized on an approval-only basis, as some of the rules effectively demand it.
Attempts to get a custom item other than the above exceptions will likely be disapproved, but if you aren't sure, please, ask anyway.
Amulet of second chances is banned.
Thoughtbottle is banned.
Candle of Invocation is not banned, but will get you eaten by the Hounds.
Nightsticks do not stack.
Feathered Wings from Fiend Folio have no associated ill effects, having proved too valuable to the meta-game.
Scrolls of higher than 9th level do not exist.
Amulet of Peace is banned.
Power Link Quori Shards are banned.
Turn attempts or similar from multiples of the same item are considered unnamed bonuses from the same source, and thus do not stack.



Skills :


Caster Level from UMD checks caps at 20 for our purposes.
Diplomancy and its ilk are GM-adjudicated rather than running off the provided tables.
Seduction is banned for reasons of verisimilitude.
Intimidate and its results are not mind-affecting.





Good luck!


Submitted Sheets are reviewed by:
Sofawall
T.G. Oskar
Aethernox
IthilanorStPete
PhoenixRivers
Aharon
Aracor
Claudius Maximus

[Test Of Spite]

The Hall Of Honor

Vader fell to the ineffably accurate Sheriff of Moddingham.
Phoenix Rivers made Olo go Ni-Infinite on his own face (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6968457#post6968457).
Talic surrendered in the face Sallera's persistence, and fled as the fog claimed Sallera.
Aethernox was struck down by Saph's mastery of the Sublime Way
Yahzi defeated Olo, though many of his skeletons were crushed.
In a rematch, a burst of fire from the downed Olo brought Yahzi to a burning fate.
Imperial Specter conceded after Imhotep collapsed the arena by disintegrating load-bearing columns.
Level 1 sharnian and Olo fought it out, but magic was no match for arrows.
After a slight mishap, Olo faced Memalato and Water Penguin 43 and brought them under his control.
9mm cut down Lv1 Sharnian with swings that he couldn't see.
Olo got block-rocked by Talic's hulking hurler.

Kabol, by Lvl 1 Sharnian was the first character to force a run-time ban.
Alita, by Jemini Zero, keeps getting broken and rebuilt. JZ is commended for forcing three separate run-time bans.
9MM forced a pre-match nerf of splitting.
Shoutz to all the people who helped prove that Spelldancer needed a ban!





Dungeon Entrance, Instance One (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6326126#post6326126)

Dungeon Entrance, Instance Two (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6396497#post6396497)

Dungeon Entrance, Instance Three (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138440)

ToS: The Monkening, a special dungeoncrawl. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116095)



Battles:

Early fights:
9mm vs. lvl 1 Sharnian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117340)
Adumbration vs. Imperialspectre. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117753)
Adumbration vs. Ratflail. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115754)
aethernox vs. Ratflail (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116261)
aethernox vs. Saph (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115745)
imperialspectre vs. Saph (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117315)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Olo Demonsbane (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116717)
Olo Demonsbane vs. Talic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117703)
Olo Demonsbane vs. Yahzi (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6381627#post6381627)
Pharaoh's fist and wykydtron vs. ozgun92 and Melamoto! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114173)
Sallera vs. Talic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114175)

Exhibitions
9mm vs. aethernox (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127551)
9mm vs. Godskook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152413)
9mm vs. lvl 1 Sharnian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117340)
9mm vs. lvl 1 Sharnian again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130864)
9mm vs. Olo Demonsbane, a must read. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6843840#post6843840)
9mm vs. Tanaric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135213)
Adumbration vs. aethernox (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136223)
Adumbration vs. Olo Demonsbane (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7651905)
Adumbration vs. PhoenixRivers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8026244)
Adumbration vs. Sofawall (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147012)
Adumbration vs. Superglucose (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141623)
Adumbration vs. theterran (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139741)
Aecus vs. Tanaric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135295)
aethernox vs. Claudius Maximus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128140)
aethernox vs. IthilinorStPete (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128073)
aethernox vs. lvl 1 Sharnian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119337&)
aethernox vs. Olo Demonsbane (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125709)
aethernox vs. Olo Demonsbane again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132884)
aethernox vs. PhoenixRivers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127309)
aethernox vs. PhoenixRivers again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139200)
aethernox vs. Saph (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118659&)
aethernox vs. Signmaker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125833)
aethernox vs. Signmaker again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138478)
Anklebite vs. Moonlitdreams (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7899348)
Arakune vs. Tanaric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141083)
Claudius Maximus vs. Gaurd Juris (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124885)
Claudius Maximus vs. imperialspectre (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122876&)
Claudius Maximus vs. JeminiZero (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122296&)
Claudius Maximus vs. lvl 1 Sharnian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129637)
Claudius Maximus vs. Master_Rahl22 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123870&)
Claudius Maximus vs. Milskidasith (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120402&)
Claudius Maximus vs. Milskidasith again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120613&)
Claudius Maximus vs. Nohwl (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152269)
Claudius Maximus vs. Nohwl again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152270)
Claudius Maximus vs. Olo Demonsbane (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120960&)
Claudius Maximus vs. Olo Demonsbane again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121695&)
Claudius Maximus vs. Olo Demonsbane yet again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133191)
Claudius Maximus vs. Olo Demonsbane the fourth (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143558)
Claudius Maximus vs. PhoenixRivers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125362)
Claudius Maximus vs. PhoenixRivers again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126103)
Claudius Maximus vs. PhoenixRivers a third time (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138731)
Claudius Maximus vs. PhoenixRivers yet again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146766)
Claudius Maximus vs. Talic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120575&)
Claudius Maximus vs. Tanaric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135220)
Claudius Maximus vs. Tanaric again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7536155)
Claudius Maximus vs. Tanaric once more (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138631)
Claudius Maximus vs. Thelas (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130886)
Claudius Maximus vs. theterran (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139014)
Gaurd Juris vs. imperialspectre (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123281)
Gaurd Juris vs. lvl 1 Sharnian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124199)
Gaurd Juris vs. Olo Demonsbane (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122979)
Gaurd Juris vs. Olo Demonsbane again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125288)
Gaurd Juris vs. mikethepoor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123001&)
Glimbur vs. Tanaric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135035)
Glimbur vs. Tanaric again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135751)
IthilanorStPete vs. Milskidasith (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132948)
IthilanorStPete vs. Mushroom Ninja (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127413)
IthilanorStPete vs. PhoenixRivers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128237)
JeminiZero vs. Saph (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119488&)
JeminiZero vs. Talic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119563&)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. JeminiZero (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119413&)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Olo Demonsbane again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119985&)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Olo Demonsbane a third time (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122378&)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Olo Demonsbane the fourth (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126382)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Olo Demonsbane once again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130135)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Pharaoh's Fist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123286&)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. PhoenixRivers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126135)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. PhoenixRivers again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131071)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. PhoenixRivers a third time (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131087)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Signmaker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119279&)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Signmaker again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119963&)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Signmaker a third time (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121406)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Talic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118492)
Master_Rahl22 vs. PhoenixRivers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125227)
Master_Rahl22 vs. Tanaric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135453)
Melamoto vs. Olo Demonsbane (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139713)
Melamoto vs. Olo Demonsbane vs. waterpenguin43 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117052&)
Milskidasith vs. Talic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120404&)
Milskidasith vs. Talic again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120599&)
Moonlitdreams vs. Olo Demonsbane (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7905495)
Moonlitdreams vs. PhoenixRivers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144473)
Mushroom Ninja vs. Thelas (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127408)
Olo Demonsbane vs. PhoenixRivers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135267)
Olo Demonsbane vs. PhoenixRivers again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139756)
Olo Demonsbane vs. PhoenixRivers yet again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8431894)
Olo Demonsbane vs. Superglucose (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7872576)
Olo Demonsbane vs. Superglucose again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144001)
Olo Demonsbane vs. Tanaric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134869)
Olo Demonsbane vs. Tanaric again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139464)
Olo Demonsbane vs. Thelas (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127293)
Olo Demonsbane vs. theterran (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138376)
Pharaoh's Fist vs. ShneekyTheLost (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125885)
PhoenixRivers vs. Tanaric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143733)
PhoenixRivers vs. theterran (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138199)
PhoenixRivers vs. theterran again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147915)
ShneekyTheLost vs. T.G. Oskar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143260)
SurlySeraph vs. Tanaric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139872)
Tanaric vs. theterran (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139861)

Qualifiers
Amphetryon vs. Glimbur (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136935)
Claudius Maximus and Master_Rahl22 vs. PhoenixRivers and Olo Demonsbane (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126655)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Talic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118492&)
Gaurd Juris vs. lvl 1 Sharnian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124199&)
Nohwl vs. PhoenixRivers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151758)



Arena Referees are:
Sofawall
ImperialSpectre
Claudius Maximus


We honor Talic's contributions to the health of the forums. Hail the victorious fallen!

[Test Of Spite]

Announcements









Fighter is replaced by War-marked (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AQy814N0Rw6OZGdzNHBid3dfM2NjbXo5Mmcy&hl=en) which uses these marks (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0Aclf_LtvhqMlZGhwbTc4OTlfNTYyNnh2dmM1&hl=en)

Paladin is updated (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYdLcxsM7Nx0ZGc2NzhibjNfMTAycmpwdnpxY2c&hl=en)

Barbarian is updated (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYdLcxsM7Nx0ZGc2NzhibjNfNzFkNjl3ajMzYg&hl=en)

Monk is updated (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYdLcxsM7Nx0ZGc2NzhibjNfNzJnNWpkZDJ2cA&hl=en)


These updates are no longer optional.


Resources
The Dispeller's Bible (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871214/Dispelling_38;_Counterspelling_Compilation)
Essential reading for any would be caster.

Items Of Interest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149464)
A look-at-me list for itemization.



Challenges!
A Boy and His Antimatter-Rifle Armed Hunters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8396880&postcount=1487)
Additional rules: Consumables and 1-shot items cost 5x.
Reward:
Fame and beta access to Achron (http://achrongame.com/site/)
[br][br]
Kill of Cthulhu
The first person to pull a truly hilarious kill using the currently legal Call of Cthulhu d20 core book will receive $20 gift certificate to Cthulhu's Favored Candy Store. (http://www.lollyphile.com/)

[Test Of Spite]

Here is a list of popular arena maps. You are not restricted to these in any fashion, and may propose your own for your matches, subject to your opponent's approval.

Columns:

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Brought to the ToS by Saph, this map originated in the Test of Might. The height of the arena and presence of doors and other features is variable, and should be agreed upon. The original specifications were:



Columns II:

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Created by Doc Roc when concerns were raised over the small size of the first Columns map, this one provides more space and cover opportunities. Once again, an agreement should be struck on the details of this map.

Columns II - Jumbo Edition:

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I created this one when I needed a map in which I could maneuver a Gargantuan creature. It's the same as Columns II, but doubled in all dimensions.

River Map:
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/4343/arena2i.gif

This map originated in the Arena Tournament. This has proven to be one of the most popular arena choices in the Test of Spite.

Blank Map:
http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/959/blandarena.png

Nothing really of note here. I once again think it was Talic who first posted it.

More may be added later.

[Mushroom Ninja]

Fourth thread! Congratulations all around!

[Superglucose]

It strikes me that Fighter should just replace Warrior as an NPC class.

[Test Of Spite]

It does, effectively. We use war-marked instead for all purposes now.

Challenges are up now!

[lvl 1 sharnian]

I just looked through the Call of Cthulu d20 and see that it's pretty similar to Dnd Core, including most of the same feats, but I see no classes or anything.

Can someone point me towards something CoC-y in there that besides maybe summoning a Cthulu monster to kill people?

edit: Is the FutureTek thing one person controlling 3 fighters vs 1 wizard? Or is it 3 people controlling 1 fighter each?

[Prodan]

Can someone point me towards something CoC-y in there that besides maybe summoning a Cthulu monster to kill people?


HasturHasturHastur

[The Shadowmind]

HasturHasturHastur

You called?....



Is the 1 wizard vs 4 fighter, have to be the fighter class, or just a melee build, or any melee build that doesn't get 9th level spells?

[Glimbur]

I'm still looking for an exhibition match for my Tier 3-4ish character.

[Myou]

Congratulations on the latest thread, always good to the the ToS going strong. :smallsmile:

[Doc Roc]

You called?....



Is the 1 wizard vs 4 fighter, have to be the fighter class, or just a melee build, or any melee build that doesn't get 9th level spells?

Given that we're giving you antimatter rifles, I'm going to say that it needs to be a fighter, and that melee is not okay. Remember, these are 'chantable AM rifles, so you can slap quickloading or similar on there.

[PhoenixRivers]

You called?....



Is the 1 wizard vs 4 fighter, have to be the fighter class, or just a melee build, or any melee build that doesn't get 9th level spells?

It is specifically a "Core Wizard 20" vs 4 "Core Fighter 20".

The wizard is already built, and has no PrC usage, and nothing outside of core.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Alright, new thread! And to think that I saw this thread's creation...*sniff* It has grown up so much! :smalltongue:

[Doc Roc]

Man, tell me about it. We have such tech now.

[9mm]

woot new thread...

*goes back to trying to make his new experiment behave its self*

[PhoenixRivers]

To clarify on Fighter vs Melee...

It is core only. Leadership is banned, as are calling effects, and simulacrum. Otherwise, it's Core.

I was debating setting the terms to allow 1 PrC per contestant, of up to 10 levels. I discarded that idea, as that makes the wizard too nasty to be defeated by conventional core tactics. Archmage is too powerful.

EDIT: If the fighters would prefer no AM rifles, I'd be willing to expand it to Melee classes vs wizard classes.

Melee classes being any core class that has a maximum spell level of 4 or less and BAB at least 3/4 (basically, excludes Bard and fullcasters), as well as core PrC's with the same restriction...

Wizard classes include the wizard class and PrC's.

I don't recommend this option. It's not fair to the fighters.

[Amphetryon]

I'm still looking for an exhibition match for my Tier 3-4ish character.
I might have something amusing for that. It's in the initial stages.

[Cieyrin]

Y'know, it's weird that I've been sorta with the ToS crowd, yet never actually had a match, unless we count the currently illegal Gunmage that got transferred over to DocRoc's unfortunately defunct IK game.

To rectify this, I'd actually like to try my hand at an Antimatter Fighter, as this sounds like it's made of WIN waiting to happen. :smallbiggrin:

[PhoenixRivers]

Y'know, it's weird that I've been sorta with the ToS crowd, yet never actually had a match, unless we count the currently illegal Gunmage that got transferred over to DocRoc's unfortunately defunct IK game.

To rectify this, I'd actually like to try my hand at an Antimatter Fighter, as this sounds like it's made of WIN waiting to happen. :smallbiggrin:

The cool thing about antimatter fighters is that you get four!

[Aharon]

Hi,

just wanted to post a short reminder about my racial hit dice question. There's a submitted build that intends to use RHD, and I don't want to start checking it before I know wether it's illegal anyway. It's not overly powerful (I think), but I would understand if there was a general ruling, as PhoenixRivers said in the old thread.

Also, still curious if anybody could tell me how the total cover gained from tower shields works. Can you really protect yourself against a disjunction with one with guaranteed success?

[Cieyrin]

The cool thing about antimatter fighters is that you get four!

Wait, 4 Antimatter Fighters or 4 antimatter rifles per fighter? I'm confuseled, slightly...

[PhoenixRivers]

Wait, 4 Antimatter Fighters or 4 antimatter rifles per fighter? I'm confuseled, slightly...

4 fighters vs 1 wizard.

Each fighter gets up to 2 futuretech weapons (so you could have an antimatter rifle, or 2 laser pistols, or something like that). The base Antimatter weapons are free, and you can enchant them for the enchantment cost.

[PhoenixRivers]

Hi,

just wanted to post a short reminder about my racial hit dice question. There's a submitted build that intends to use RHD, and I don't want to start checking it before I know wether it's illegal anyway. It's not overly powerful (I think), but I would understand if there was a general ruling, as PhoenixRivers said in the old thread.

Also, still curious if anybody could tell me how the total cover gained from tower shields works. Can you really protect yourself against a disjunction with one with guaranteed success?

Yes, though the shield would be affected by the disjunction. A good wizard can prepare for that, though. Note: It requires a standard action to take cover. Also note: Tower shields can't be crafted out of mithril or adamantine.

[Cieyrin]

4 fighters vs 1 wizard.

Each fighter gets up to 2 futuretech weapons (so you could have an antimatter rifle, or 2 laser pistols, or something like that). The base Antimatter weapons are free, and you can enchant them for the enchantment cost.

Okay, that's what I thought, though I suppose the original challenge that Doc links mutated from 3 to 4 fighters, then.


Also note: Tower shields can't be crafted out of mithril or adamantine.

Why not? Check out Races of Stone, they have a Steel Tower Shield, so I don't see why you couldn't have a Mithral or Adamantine one.

[PhoenixRivers]

Okay, that's what I thought, though I suppose the original challenge that Doc links mutated from 3 to 4 fighters, then.



Why not? Check out Races of Stone, they have a Steel Tower Shield, so I don't see why you couldn't have a Mithral or Adamantine one.

Sure enough. I stand corrected. The SRD tower shield was disallowed. The Races of Stone one can be upgraded.

[Eurus]

4 fighters vs 1 wizard.

Each fighter gets up to 2 futuretech weapons (so you could have an antimatter rifle, or 2 laser pistols, or something like that). The base Antimatter weapons are free, and you can enchant them for the enchantment cost.

I'm confused, is one player supposed to make four fighters, or is it four players each with one fighter?

[PhoenixRivers]

I'm confused, is one player supposed to make four fighters, or is it four players each with one fighter?

Honestly, I don't think it makes much difference. I don't anticipate any fighter survivors at this stage of the challenge.

[Eurus]

Honestly, I don't think it makes much difference. I don't anticipate any fighter survivors at this stage of the challenge.

Neither do I, really. But if it's entertaining and gives me some much-needed practice, hey, win-win.

[PhoenixRivers]

Neither do I, really. But if it's entertaining and gives me some much-needed practice, hey, win-win.

If it makes you feel better, I didn't ban evocation.

[Eurus]

If it makes you feel better, I didn't ban evocation.

To be perfectly honest, I'm not entirely sure what tactics core-only wizards generally use (with calling/simulacra being banned). I mean, I know the standard "grease/solid fog and polymorph/shapechange good, fireball bad" philosophy (oh, and rope trick, can't forget that), I just don't generally see it in action enough to be familiar with how it actually works out.

[Prodan]

Extended Acid Arrow from 800 feet away whilst invisible, repeat and play keep away until enemy is dead.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

To be perfectly honest, I'm not entirely sure what tactics core-only wizards generally use (with calling/simulacra being banned). I mean, I know the standard "grease/solid fog and polymorph/shapechange good, fireball bad" philosophy (oh, and rope trick, can't forget that), I just don't generally see it in action enough to be familiar with how it actually works out.

Forcecage/Cloudkill is a good combo against beatsticks who forget to buy a Necklace of Adaptation...

[TheMadLinguist]

Can I ask this to be expanded to "any core race is allowable, so long as all your class levels are in fighter"?

[Prodan]

Can I ask this to be expanded to "any core race is allowable, so long as all your class levels are in fighter"?

Ghosts are not a race.

[Eurus]

Forcecage/Cloudkill is a good combo against beatsticks who forget to buy a Necklace of Adaptation...

Fortunately, that's a staple on every character that I ever make now, heh.


Extended Acid Arrow from 800 feet away whilst invisible, repeat and play keep away until enemy is dead.

Acid resistance crucial, got it. Maybe a brooch of shielding for good measure. And death ward, and freedom of movement, and a seeking enchantment on the rifle/laser gun, and a bunch of other stuff... it is kind of annoying that all of the fighter's cash has to go toward countering the wizard's most obvious tricks, while he can use all of his on coming up with new ones.

[Claudius Maximus]

I think I'll make a fighter for this. I'm not so sure you'll get such an easy win, if only because you're fighting 4x WBL and we have an action advantage.

Edit: What are the chargen guidelines? Average HP except for first? What kind of point-buy do we use?

[term1nally s1ck]

Ok, question 1...

How the **** do you enchant an antimatter rifle? It's ammo is different to most other weapons.

[TheMadLinguist]

Ghosts are not a race.

Disagree, on grounds of half-dragons being a race.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Against four fighters, Blastomancy actually works fairly well, considering they then have to choose between attacking or healing, none of them are likely to have a Ring of Evasion, since they need one for Freedom of Movement and either Spell Turning or Energy Resistance (Acid). Blast in all different kinds of flavors

Some tactics the fighters might want to use:

Necklace of Fireballs + Alchemist's Fire = "Brother Maynard, please fetch the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch".

Dust of Sneezing and Choking. Because AE Fort Save or Die is fun. And even if you make the fort save, you're still stun-locked.

[Eurus]

Dust of Sneezing and Choking. Because AE Fort Save or Die is fun. And even if you make the fort save, you're still stun-locked.

We're not using the ToS ban list?

EDIT: Also, question. If you put on a ring of invisibility and use it, can you then take it off and remain invisible for the effect's duration?

[Doc Roc]

Then I guess I'm going to have to make a hard allow list. I hate that.

[Claudius Maximus]

Are we allowed to combine or re-slot items?

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Does the Mark of the Depth's spell delaying ability allow the Warmarked to move away from the area while the spell is delayed, thereby allowing them to be unaffected by the spell?

For the fighter challenge, do we still need to take the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (futuristic) feat? And we get 30 batteries of ammo per weapon right?

Core includes Psionic feats and such?

Does Manyshot work with Futuristic weapons?

[Claudius Maximus]

While it's Phoenix's challenge, normally "Core" only means PHB, DMG, and MMI.

Manyshot specifically specifies arrows, so I don't think it would work with the futuristic weapons.

Are we able to enchant the ammo for these weapons?

[The Shadowmind]

The antimatter rifle can only be fired once per round. So looks like the laser pistol or laser rifle are the best options. Luckily Rapidshot doesn't have the arrow limitation. How the energy cells work with enchants is up to Phoenix or Doc Roc.
The Pistol energy cell is 50 shots, the rifle is 30 shots, and the antimatter rifles is 2 shots.

[Doc Roc]

Anything you would normally need to apply to an energy pack can instead be applied to a gun.
Right now, I believe the intent is to exclude the XPH and ELH, though as the challenge recurs, these restrictions will change. We expect that things will be crazy the first run, so we will run the challenge a few times.

[PhoenixRivers]

To be perfectly honest, I'm not entirely sure what tactics core-only wizards generally use (with calling/simulacra being banned). I mean, I know the standard "grease/solid fog and polymorph/shapechange good, fireball bad" philosophy (oh, and rope trick, can't forget that), I just don't generally see it in action enough to be familiar with how it actually works out.

Not a fan of Solid Fog in these kinda fights, actually. It doesn't directly accomplish a goal. I don't like falling into the wizard trap of putting 3 slots for time stop, 5 for sollid fog, 4 for fog cloud, 3 for waves of fatigue, and none for actually KILLING people. I've seen that disturbingly large amounts of high end wizards do that.

Calling may be out, but summoning is not, so the summon monster line is viable. Damage is, as well. Save or Lose/Save or Die effects are, also. Dominate monster is fun.


Extended Acid Arrow from 800 feet away whilst invisible, repeat and play keep away until enemy is dead.

Very low damage for an action. I'd Prefer something that when empowered and maximized, does MORE than 10 average damage at a time. Scorching Ray is much more fun. That, when maximized+empowered, hits 31 average damage per shot, and 3 shots.


Can I ask this to be expanded to "any core race is allowable, so long as all your class levels are in fighter"?

Any core race is allowable, provided you meet the challenge requirements. Those challenge requirements are 20 levels of wizard for the wizard, and 20 levels of Fighter for the fighter. That does equate to LA 0, RHD 0.


Forcecage/Cloudkill is a good combo against beatsticks who forget to buy a Necklace of Adaptation...

I'm not going to have a primary kill method with a lot of high level slot investment destroyed be a 9000gp item.


Acid resistance crucial, got it. Maybe a brooch of shielding for good measure. And death ward, and freedom of movement, and a seeking enchantment on the rifle/laser gun, and a bunch of other stuff... it is kind of annoying that all of the fighter's cash has to go toward countering the wizard's most obvious tricks, while he can use all of his on coming up with new ones.I do have a lot of my WBL spent on metamagic rods. I love being able to metamagic High level slots with impunity.


I think I'll make a fighter for this. I'm not so sure you'll get such an easy win, if only because you're fighting 4x WBL and we have an action advantage.I've accounted for Action Advantage. WBL is deadly for tricks, yes, but I know most of the deadly tricks for WBL, and think I'll do OK.


Edit: What are the chargen guidelines? Average HP except for first? What kind of point-buy do we use?28 point buy.
Max the 1st HD, average the rest.

Fighters should be 10 + (19 x 5.5) + (Con x 20).
This will 114 + (Con mod x 20).


Ok, question 1...

How the **** do you enchant an antimatter rifle? It's ammo is different to most other weapons.

Antimatter shots will ignore DR, energy resistance, and antimagic. They will pick up whatever enhancements transfer from a ranged weapon to its ammo.

Cost is 300gp (for Masterwork) + Enhancement cost (2000gp for +1, 8000 for +2, 18000 for +3, etc).


Dust of Sneezing and Choking. Because AE Fort Save or Die is fun. And even if you make the fort save, you're still stun-locked.

I would advise against sneezing and choking. RAW, it's tossed in the air, which would include the tosser. It's also not hard for a wizard to be immune to Fort save effects and Stunning. Shapechange, anyone?


We're not using the ToS ban list?

EDIT: Also, question. If you put on a ring of invisibility and use it, can you then take it off and remain invisible for the effect's duration?

It's Core, not ToS, though the worst breaks should be avoided (things on the lines of Simulacrum, Gate abuse, etc). Reasoning is that if gate calling were not banned? I'd enter the arena with 50,000 Solars.

In like fashion, I expect players who know of extremely unbalanced items will avoid them. I'm not referring to things that are GOOD (ring of Freedom of movement, for example). I'm referring to things that are, by themselves, overpowered (Sneezing and Choking, Candles of Invocation, things along those lines). Also note that 1 shot items cost is multiplied by 5.

And yes on the ring.


Are we allowed to combine or re-slot items?

Combined items is a part of the MIC, which is out of Core. Reslotting should be fine, so long as the DMG guidelines for Slot affinity are followed.


For the fighter challenge, do we still need to take the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (futuristic) feat? And we get 30 batteries of ammo per weapon right?30 packs total, not per weapon. And if you don't want a -4 with the gun, yes, a weapon proficiency is recommended. I don't think that the fighters are hurting for feats.


Core includes Psionic feats and such?

Does Manyshot work with Futuristic weapons?
Core does not include Psionics. Core is PHB, MM, and DMG. Other sections of the SRD (UA, Psionics, etc) are not Core.

Antimatter Rifles have a hard cap of 1 shot per round in their description. Weapons without such a limitation (laser weapons) can benefit from feats which enhance any projectile weapon (but not ones that are limited to specific weapons, such as crossbows, or bows), such as rapid shot and the like.


Are we able to enchant the ammo for these weapons?

The energy packs are essentially quivers. The shots are actually created by the weapon, so cannot be enchanted. As they're already No DR, no Energy Resist, and function in Antimagic, I'd say they're ok.


Anything you would normally need to apply to an energy pack can instead be applied to a gun.
This does not apply to "Specific weapons" such as arrows of slaying, only enhancements.

Right now, I believe the intent is to exclude the XPH and ELH, though as the challenge recurs, these restrictions will change. We expect that things will be crazy the first run, so we will run the challenge a few times.
Indeed, though I pity anyone who offers to open PrC's. I expect to lose control of the process after round 1, as additional handicaps are put in place.

[Doc Roc]

In the second round, we'll probably expand some things, and add a couple more rules.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Indeed, though I pity anyone who offers to open PrC's. I expect to lose control of the process after round 1, as additional handicaps are put in place. Incantatrix, anyone? Archmage, while powerful, doesn't hold a Candle of Invocation to either Incantatrix OR Initiate of the Sevenfold Cheese. I know what I'd pick if I was offered the option to have one PrC in my wizard's build...

[Claudius Maximus]

Combined items is a part of the MIC, which is out of Core.

There's the "Multiple different abilities" option in the DMG, which multiplies the cost of the cheaper half by 1.5. Is that allowed?

[PhoenixRivers]

There's the "Multiple different abilities" option in the DMG, which multiplies the cost of the cheaper half by 1.5. Is that allowed?

They're a subset of the guidelines for magic item creation, which are estimates, rather than prices. Too much Rule 0 there.


Incantatrix, anyone? Archmage, while powerful, doesn't hold a Candle of Invocation to either Incantatrix OR Initiate of the Sevenfold Cheese. I know what I'd pick if I was offered the option to have one PrC in my wizard's build...

It's still core, even with a PrC. The inclusion of PrC wasn't meant to counter the core restriction, though, again, depending on performance, more options may be opened later (psionic feats, other classes, etc)... Those are not at my discretion, but at the Doc's.

[Olo Demonsbane]

I might be open to running a dungeon run this summer. Mostly combat. Any takers? I'd probably only want 2 or 3 people.

[Nohwl]

I might be open to running a dungeon run this summer. Mostly combat. Any takers? I'd probably only want 2 or 3 people.

i've got nothing better to do, so i'll give it a shot.

[Arakune]

Disagree, on grounds of half-dragons being a race.

Wasn't half-dragons (and most half-something) templates that you can apply to any/some X?

[PhoenixRivers]

I might be open to running a dungeon run this summer. Mostly combat. Any takers? I'd probably only want 2 or 3 people.

I'd be willing to gofer it, probably.

[Mushroom Ninja]

Now that I've finally gotten my archivist fixed up and approved, is anyone up for an exhibition?

[9mm]

I might be open to running a dungeon run this summer. Mostly combat. Any takers? I'd probably only want 2 or 3 people.

Yojimbo is always down for dungeon crawling; so will Marcus, Boomer, Slade, or John if I win a qualifier with them.

Speaking of Marcus; he's approved and ready and willing

[Olo Demonsbane]

All right, that sounds good...can I have links to your characters and their exhibition fights? I'd like to see them and their tactics so that I can start the planning.

Also, Phoenix? No Cerembrancers, please. I can DM for anything lower than a powerful Tier 1, but....

And 9mm...if you would prefer to use one of your other characters, I'm sure I could scrounge up an earlier build for an exhibition.

[Amphetryon]

Based on most of your ToS entries, Olo, I think I'd be outgunned if I signed up.

[9mm]

Based on most of your ToS entries, Olo, I think I'd be outgunned if I signed up.

oh he's not that hard... you just need to trick him into killing himself.


All right, that sounds good...can I have links to your characters and their exhibition fights? I'd like to see them and their tactics so that I can start the planning.

Also, Phoenix? No Cerembrancers, please. I can DM for anything lower than a powerful Tier 1, but....

And 9mm...if you would prefer to use one of your other characters, I'm sure I could scrounge up an earlier build for an exhibition.

finals is nearly over so if your up to fights I'm down with that, but Yojimbo has been in the waiting room for a full fledged dungeon run since the first thread.

[PhoenixRivers]

All right, that sounds good...can I have links to your characters and their exhibition fights? I'd like to see them and their tactics so that I can start the planning.

Also, Phoenix? No Cerembrancers, please. I can DM for anything lower than a powerful Tier 1, but....

And 9mm...if you would prefer to use one of your other characters, I'm sure I could scrounge up an earlier build for an exhibition.

My Cerebremancer would probably be the most reasonable "high end" character, as I can't nova in actual games.

I'll design something special for it. If I can get an idea for what tier to build to, I'll whip something up and get it exhibitioned.

[Olo Demonsbane]

My Cerebremancer would probably be the most reasonable "high end" character, as I can't nova in actual games.

I'll design something special for it. If I can get an idea for what tier to build to, I'll whip something up and get it exhibitioned.

Well, 9mm is the first one in, and his is a decent ToS Tier 3. So ToS Tier 2 or lower please.

I'll contribute one of my random other characters to an exhibition, just let me know when you're ready.

[Aharon]

Sorry to chime in again, but I got feedback from the guy who submitted the build with racial hit dice, and he's still interested in playing, so a definitive ruling would be nice. :smallsmile:

[PhoenixRivers]

Sorry to chime in again, but I got feedback from the guy who submitted the build with racial hit dice, and he's still interested in playing, so a definitive ruling would be nice. :smallsmile:

Talked to Doc Roc via messenger:
4:14:47 AM PhoenixRivers: what's the ToS ruling on RHD? Allow or no?
4:15:33 AM Doc Roc: prefer ban.

[Doc Roc]

Talked to Doc Roc via messenger:

Contingent on purpose. If it's not something like a sharn, we can have a conversation

[PhoenixRivers]

Contingent on purpose. If it's not something like a sharn, we can have a conversation

Phaerimm? lol.

[Aharon]

@Doc Roc
No, it's nothing like that. I guess it's best if I put things like that in a spoiler.


Just in case Yitzi wishes it to remain unknown :smallsmile: He intends to play an ogre. As the race offers nothing but a STR and CON Boost, I think it should be ok'd. But my experience with martial builds is pretty minimal, so I may underestimate what he can do.

[Il_Vec]

I gave the thread a good read and tought it would be really awesome to be part of something like this, but I think if I build one char to play this he would be like, Tier 5, 4 at tops...
Still, if I want to, how do I do it? Just sign up the form and wait for an answer?

[Aharon]

Yep, that's how it works. Be aware though that checking the character sheets sometimes takes very long, and there are still some unchecked sheets from last september.

You can also ask people if they want an exhibition fight, those are made with unchecked characters.

It's no problem to submit a character who fits in a lower tier, many people have builds across the whole power spectrum and will fight a Tier 4/5 build.

[PhoenixRivers]

Hey Olo, that proposed character is ready! :D

EDIT: Well, mostly, he's gotta get a few items.

[Doc Roc]

I gave the thread a good read and tought it would be really awesome to be part of something like this, but I think if I build one char to play this he would be like, Tier 5, 4 at tops...
Still, if I want to, how do I do it? Just sign up the form and wait for an answer?

Hopefully, over summer, sheet checking will pick up considerably, but for now, what Aharon said holds. Exhibition matches are really pretty bread-and-butter, and we do watch for mistakes made in matches in progress irregardless of their standing as qualifiers or exhibitions. As a result, I think you'll be fine. Tier 4 characters are a lot of fun, and can produce some of the most interesting matches. I think every regular has at least one in the 3 or 4 range.

Welcome aboard!


@Doc Roc
No, it's nothing like that. I guess it's best if I put things like that in a spoiler.


Just in case Yitzi wishes it to remain unknown :smallsmile: He intends to play an ogre. As the race offers nothing but a STR and CON Boost, I think it should be ok'd. But my experience with martial builds is pretty minimal, so I may underestimate what he can do.

That's a fine thing.

[Thrantar]

Hello. I'm working on my first build for entry and have a question for the DMs.


Q: According to the rules, all 3.5 books are allowed. Does this included official web material? If so, what is your stance on the Substitute Powers ACF for ardents? Specifically, I'm trying to get dimension door.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Hey Olo, that proposed character is ready! :D

EDIT: Well, mostly, he's gotta get a few items.

Well, Mythweavers is being stupid right now and won't let me access their database...maybe you could fight someone else in the meantime?

EDIT: Nevermind, fixed.

[PhoenixRivers]

Hey, I'm down for that, though I designed him more as a team player than a one man-show.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Hey, I'm down for that, though I designed him more as a team player than a one man-show.

He still needs to win a qualification before he can go on to the dungeon.

Here's a match. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8431894#post8431894)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

What source allows a Psicrystal to manifest powers in it's own right? I'm working on re-working Shinji Ikari, and he is going to be much nastier than previously.

Quicken Power, Twin Power, and Schism are still on the menu, right?

[Olo Demonsbane]

What source allows a Psicrystal to manifest powers in it's own right? I'm working on re-working Shinji Ikari, and he is going to be much nastier than previously.

Quicken Power, Twin Power, and Schism are still on the menu, right?

Twin Power is not, but the other two are.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Twin Power is not, but the other two are.

[Mr.Burns]*steeples his fingers* Eeeexcellent... [/Mr.Burns]

Ya know, if ya wanted to nerf Metamagics, give them a mechanic similar to expending a Psionic Focus to use any given metamagic feat. That ought to stop most of the stacking abuses of metamagics...

[Doc Roc]

We really haven't had a lot of issues with stuff other than persist. Twin's been problematic on some SoDs, but not hugely so.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Twin's mainly problematic on stuff that gives extra actions. Otherwise, it's a +4 Metamagic...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

We really haven't had a lot of issues with stuff other than persist. Twin's been problematic on some SoDs, but not hugely so.

I have a specific tactic I want to try. A rather different approach to a Nova...

Spoilered for GM's to validate my tactic:
Basically, round one is going to be spamming Psionic Dispel as many times as possible to drop opponent buffs. Most of the ToS opponents are not naturally immune to mind-affecting, although many have some sort of buff which gives them that immunity.

With Quicken Power and Schism, I'll have 3x Dispels at my disposal, with the possibility of more if I can figure out how to get my psicrystal to chime in. With a Bead of Karma, and Overchannel, that'll give me enough effective manifester level to be able to have my schism hit them with the maximum modifier on my dispel check.

Twin Power would have been more effective than Quicken, because I would have been able to manifest Hustle to get my Psionic Focus back, since Quicken eats up my swift action. But I can deal with Quicken.

Hopefully, with three or four dispels, I should be able to negate whatever means they have of being immune to mind-affecting, which is really Shinji's primary form of attack.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Anyone want a fight with my ToS Tier 2-ish minionmancer? Just made a few minutes ago...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Anyone want a fight with my ToS Tier 2-ish minionmancer? Just made a few minutes ago...

If I could get Myth-Weavers back online and update Shinji for approval, I might be able to handle a minionmancer... be an interesting test of his new abilities, anyways...

[PhoenixRivers]

If I could get Myth-Weavers back online and update Shinji for approval, I might be able to handle a minionmancer... be an interesting test of his new abilities, anyways...

Note: Most minionmancer builds prefer to have summons allowed in buff rounds. I'm trying mine without summons in buffs.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Note: Most minionmancer builds prefer to have summons allowed in buff rounds. I'm trying mine without summons in buffs.

By all means, have summons in buff rounds. The more the merrier, I always say...

[Olo Demonsbane]

Note: Most minionmancer builds prefer to have summons allowed in buff rounds. I'm trying mine without summons in buffs.

I'm not using my minionmancer in the fight with you...I'm using an old Eldritch Theurge.

@Shneeky: Try closing the window and reloading it. It worked for me...

[PhoenixRivers]

By all means, have summons in buff rounds. The more the merrier, I always say...

That can be a dangerous tactic to have. For example, my minionmancer deals primarily in incorporeal undead. I love when floors attack.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

That can be a dangerous tactic to have. For example, my minionmancer deals primarily in incorporeal undead. I love when floors attack.

If I were, in any way, touching a floor... that might pose a problem. Also, if I was not immune to stat damage, and had ways of dealing with mass mooks... incorporeal undead are notoriously low HD, and thus few hit points...

[Olo Demonsbane]

Some of them have spring attack...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Some of them have spring attack...

Go ahead. Hit me. Please. I'm Shinji Ikari... most emo character ever written... unless you're doing over 200 damage in a round, all you are doing is killing yourself...

[PhoenixRivers]

Also, generally minionmancers have good dispelling, to get rid of things that hurt minions.

Note: No creature type is immune to all ability damage, so that has to be from magic. And magic can be stripped.

That said, my psion is much nastier than my minionmancer. He can pretty much dispel anything CL 27 or less, and then drop power shots.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Go ahead. Hit me. Please. I'm Shinji Ikari... most emo character ever written... unless you're doing over 200 damage in a round, all you are doing is killing yourself...

I was refering to Phoenix's minions. Mine are...different.

[Godskook]

Ok, I'll probably not be able to do it this week due to real-life issues(don't get me started), but how do you guys feel about me testing my homebrew in here?

[PhoenixRivers]

Ok, I'll probably not be able to do it this week due to real-life issues(don't get me started), but how do you guys feel about me testing my homebrew in here?

Long as you make it known exactly what the homebrew is, and beyond that, you follow all ToS rules, and you get your opponent to agree to the terms, I don't see any problem with exhibitions.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Also, generally minionmancers have good dispelling, to get rid of things that hurt minions.

Note: No creature type is immune to all ability damage, so that has to be from magic. And magic can be stripped.

That said, my psion is much nastier than my minionmancer. He can pretty much dispel anything CL 27 or less, and then drop power shots.

Shinji can guarantee he can strip anything CL 21 or less, and can drop up to CL 40 buffs, depending on his rolls... also, Dispelling Buffer is on his list for just that reason.

Oh, and some of the same tricks that makes Hellfire Glaivelocks viable also make it exceedingly difficult to deal stat damage to a character...

[PhoenixRivers]

Shinji can guarantee he can strip anything CL 21 or less, and can drop up to CL 40 buffs, depending on his rolls... also, Dispelling Buffer is on his list for just that reason.

Oh, and some of the same tricks that makes Hellfire Glaivelocks viable also make it exceedingly difficult to deal stat damage to a character...

Naberius and Strongheart vest are well and good, but when the stat damage is in the range of 20-30 per hit, it's iffy. Also, 200+ damage a round isn't that hard to get, especially here. Heck, my Wilder can hit almost double that.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Naberius and Strongheart vest are well and good, but when the stat damage is in the range of 20-30 per hit, it's iffy. Also, 200+ damage a round isn't that hard to get, especially here. Heck, my Wilder can hit almost double that.

Share Pain, Forced + Vigor + Empathic Transfer, Hostile = go ahead, hit me. Go ahead, have your minions hit me. PBAE they die, and I get to heal full, and you are taking half of all the damage they are dishing out...

Concussion Blast is a good way to take out incorporeal mindless minions...

[PhoenixRivers]

Share Pain, Forced + Vigor + Empathic Transfer, Hostile = go ahead, hit me. Go ahead, have your minions hit me. PBAE they die, and I get to heal full, and you are taking half of all the damage they are dishing out...

The wilder wouldn't take damage from that.

I've not seen a character get buffs higher than CL 26 for dispelling.

CL13 + Karma Bead + Ring of enduring arcana + dispelling buffer = 26.

All of my dispellers hit CL 27 without a roll.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The wilder wouldn't take damage from that.

I've not seen a character get buffs higher than CL 26 for dispelling.

CL13 + Karma Bead + Ring of enduring arcana + dispelling buffer = 26.

All of my dispellers hit CL 27 without a roll.

I'm regularly hitting CL 30

Also, where are you getting the bonuses for your dispels from? It hard-caps at +20

and would your wilder still be immune to that after getting hit by six Psionic Dispels in the first round?

[PhoenixRivers]

I'm regularly hitting CL 30

Also, where are you getting the bonuses for your dispels from? It hard-caps at +20

and would your wilder still be immune to that after getting hit by six Psionic Dispels in the first round?

Not precisely. I'd be immune to 5. The 6th, you would receive.

My heavyweights are heavyweight for a reason.

Oh, and yes, the bonuses from greater dispel and psionic dispel do hard cap at +20. It's good that there are more places to get bonuses from.

Spellcaster's Bane
Dispelling Cord
Inquisition Domain

There's another +8 right there.

[Claudius Maximus]

I've not seen a character get buffs higher than CL 26 for dispelling.

I've hit 67, but could have gone as high as 80.

At any rate, are you guys going to fight, or just talk trash? :smalltongue:

[PhoenixRivers]

I've hit 67, but could have gone as high as 80.

At any rate, are you guys going to fight, or just talk trash? :smalltongue:

Eh, if he wants to go at my cerebremancer or fluffy, he's welcome to. I doubt it'll matter either way.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I've hit 67, but could have gone as high as 80.

At any rate, are you guys going to fight, or just talk trash? :smalltongue:

I'm trying to get ahold of the books necessary to finish the build...

[9mm]

I find it funny how everyone is going on and on about their minionmancers... Pity I got beat to exhibitioning the infinate pp trick before I could truely unleash the Machine Factory.

[Olo Demonsbane]

I find it funny how everyone is going on and on about their minionmancers... Pity I got beat to exhibitioning the infinate pp trick before I could truely unleash the Machine Factory.

Constructor with the extremely long Astral construct durations? :smallwink::smallbiggrin:

Nice, I hadn't thought of that one...

[Godskook]

Long as you make it known exactly what the homebrew is, and beyond that, you follow all ToS rules, and you get your opponent to agree to the terms, I don't see any problem with exhibitions.

That'd be exatly what I'm asking for, so perfect.

[PhoenixRivers]

That'd be exatly what I'm asking for, so perfect.

Well, the second challenge is finding willing participants. :smallwink:

[Godskook]

Well, the second challenge is finding willing participants. :smallwink:

We'll see, although "straight non-dungeoncrasher fighter class levels" might get a few curious(not sure if that's the full first build, but it'll definitely be 8+ levels of it).

[PhoenixRivers]

We'll see, although "straight non-dungeoncrasher fighter class levels" might get a few curious(not sure if that's the full first build, but it'll definitely be 8+ levels of it).

That doesn't inspire my confidence for the survival of your character.

[Godskook]

That doesn't inspire my confidence for the survival of your character.

If I can't hit Tier 3 at the least(I'm hoping for Tier 2 when fully optimized) with that restriction, the homebrew is a failure and needs work.

[term1nally s1ck]

A Fighter PrC? Or interesting fighter feat? I am intrigued.

[TheMadLinguist]

Also, generally minionmancers have good dispelling, to get rid of things that hurt minions.

Note: No creature type is immune to all ability damage, so that has to be from magic. And magic can be stripped.
.


Constitution

Any living creature has at least 1 point of Constitution. A creature with no Constitution has no body or no metabolism. It is immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless the effect works on objects or is harmless. The creature is also immune to ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain, and automatically fails Constitution checks. A creature with no Constitution cannot tire and thus can run indefinitely without tiring (unless the creature’s description says it cannot run).
So... yeah.

[Doc Roc]

Considering an unban:

Ring of the Beast

Thoughts?

[PhoenixRivers]

So... yeah.

Undead type has disagreements with that:
Traits

An undead creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

* No Constitution score.
* Darkvision out to 60 feet.
* Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
* Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
* Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.
Undead can still be mentally damaged. It was brought in at the same time as psionic undead.

[Il_Vec]

Speaking of Undead, as I was reading the rules, it was unclear to me, is a Incarnate Construct Warforged Gravetouched Goul permitted?

[term1nally s1ck]

*brain explodes at the thought of that*

[Adumbration]

Considering an unban:

Ring of the Beast

Thoughts?

Eh, shouldn't be too unbalanced. You can't get higher level summons than you normally get, and druids get far too little love anyway in this iteration of the banlist. In fact, I don't think I've seen a single competetive druid so far.

(Although a summonmancer would be the way to go, what with all the buffs.)

[IthilanorStPete]

Speaking of Undead, as I was reading the rules, it was unclear to me, is a Incarnate Construct Warforged Gravetouched Goul permitted?

Incarnate Construct is from Savage Species, so probably not.

[TheMadLinguist]

Undead type has disagreements with that:
Undead can still be mentally damaged. It was brought in at the same time as psionic undead.

Technically, they don't say "can be mentally damaged". They just say "cannot be physically damaged". So if you found a way to get a con score, you'd still be immune to physical damage, or if you found a way to count as the undead type, you'd be immune to physical but not mental damage.

Or if you lost your con as a non undead, you'd be immune to any ability damage.

Unless you have rulestext that says "undead lose any immunity to ability damage to their mental scores"?

[9mm]

Eh, shouldn't be too unbalanced. You can't get higher level summons than you normally get, and druids get far too little love anyway in this iteration of the banlist. In fact, I don't think I've seen a single competetive druid so far.

(Although a summonmancer would be the way to go, what with all the buffs.)

Sign had one, won by trapping Olo (I think) in a tornado then bludgeoning him to death.

[term1nally s1ck]

Wait, Olo lost without killing himself?

[PhoenixRivers]

Technically, they don't say "can be mentally damaged". They just say "cannot be physically damaged". So if you found a way to get a con score, you'd still be immune to physical damage, or if you found a way to count as the undead type, you'd be immune to physical but not mental damage.

Or if you lost your con as a non undead, you'd be immune to any ability damage.

Unless you have rulestext that says "undead lose any immunity to ability damage to their mental scores"?

It seems that on this piece on chicanery, you are technically correct.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Sign had one, won by trapping Olo (I think) in a tornado then bludgeoning him to death.

Nah, I actually won that one. Sign got two tornadoes up, but I had a bit too much daka.

EDIT: That character did win another battle or two though, cause after two tornadoes it hid underground.

[PhoenixRivers]

Question:

@DM's:The text of Divine Metamagic states that you expend turn attempts as a free action to apply the effect of metamagic to a spell you know.

Does this bypass the typical hindrance of spontaneous casters for cast time increases when applying metamagic?

Specifically, I'm looking at a favored soul using DMM quicken.

[Il_Vec]

Made Sheet, sent for approval. What now?

[theterran]

Made Sheet, sent for approval. What now?

You wait....

and wait....

[Doc Roc]

You wait....

and wait....

That should change over summer. :)
I wish we had some funding of some sort, but that's never going to happen.

[Claudius Maximus]

Question:

@DM's:The text of Divine Metamagic states that you expend turn attempts as a free action to apply the effect of metamagic to a spell you know.

Does this bypass the typical hindrance of spontaneous casters for cast time increases when applying metamagic?

Specifically, I'm looking at a favored soul using DMM quicken.

PhoenixRivers:
This isn't entirely clear by RAW, but in the end I don't think that DMM overrides the casting time increase, based on the following rules:


[A spontaneous caster] must also take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than he does to cast a regular spell.

You have to take the longer casting time if the spell is "enhanced by a metamagic feat."


As a free action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat to spells that you know.

When you use Divine Metamagic, you apply a metamagic feat to the spell. I personally do not find it unreasonable to say that the spell is now enhanced by a metamagic feat, and you must consequently use the longer casting time.

If anyone disagrees with this, I welcome debate.

[Adumbration]

You wait....

and wait....

... get bored and do an exhibition regardless. :smalltongue:

[Amphetryon]

DMs:
I am in need of an official ruling I can point to for how DMM interacts with Triadspell (SpC 224). Does DMM: Fell Drain, for instance, 1) have no effect because Triadspell doesn't effect a target itself; 2) effect the first copy of the spell Triadspell allows to be recast; 3) allow all the copies of the spell to be influenced by Fell Drain?

[PhoenixRivers]

I've got a character that needs a qualifier now. :D

[IthilanorStPete]

eeeek

In other news, does anyone else have a really hard time coming up with a concept that hasn't been done before? I was kicking around a Trollshape -> immunity to dmg as a main trick of a caster, then Fluffy just did that way better, among other things...and I haven't had a decent idea since.

[PhoenixRivers]

Well, defenses have been well covered, so I'm trying new attack methods and win conditions.

[Il_Vec]

What is the ruling of the Dms of the test of spite on a Two-handed weapon-wielding leap-attack? -1 for +3 or -1 for +4? I know that the errata gives to understand the +4 one, but I've seen Dms rule otherwise...

[Amphetryon]

eeeek

In other news, does anyone else have a really hard time coming up with a concept that hasn't been done before? I was kicking around a Trollshape -> immunity to dmg as a main trick of a caster, then Fluffy just did that way better, among other things...and I haven't had a decent idea since.
I've found a couple of interesting timing tricks.

[PhoenixRivers]

What is the ruling of the Dms of the test of spite on a Two-handed weapon-wielding leap-attack? -1 for +3 or -1 for +4? I know that the errata gives to understand the +4 one, but I've seen Dms rule otherwise...

1:4, as leap attack increases it by 100%.

[theterran]

I've got a character that needs a qualifier now. :D

If I could get my latest submittal approved, I would have one too...TS said he was working on it, but that's been a few weeks now...

[Il_Vec]

1:4, as leap attack increases it by 100%.

Yes, really good.
My usual DMs treats this as a classic case of doubling doubles = triples, like criticals.

[Doc Roc]

In about two weeks, I'm going to be launching some more Penny Dreadful classes, so hopefully that will breathe some much needed vigor into build variety.


If I could get my latest submittal approved, I would have one too...TS said he was working on it, but that's been a few weeks now...

Check your e-mail, at least the one you used to register your GitP account.

[theterran]

Oh, you send it back via email? I thought CM said I would get a PM...

(goes to check his email)

[PhoenixRivers]

Oh, you send it back via email? I thought CM said I would get a PM...

(goes to check his email)

CM does do PM's. Not all checkers do, though.

[term1nally s1ck]

I've been slightly swamped, and you used some stuff I've not seen used before, so have to go see how it works. I'll try and do it tonight.

[Olo Demonsbane]

eeeek

In other news, does anyone else have a really hard time coming up with a concept that hasn't been done before? I was kicking around a Trollshape -> immunity to dmg as a main trick of a caster, then Fluffy just did that way better, among other things...and I haven't had a decent idea since.

I do thought exercises where I try to find out a workable build for every class in a supplement. It usually gives me some scarily awesome idea. I have decent ones for Blackguard and Psibond Agent stewing right now...neither is tier 1 or anything, but both might be able to make it to Tier 2.5 or so with good optimization.

[Nohwl]

ok, finished my character. so i guess i'm looking for a match. or something.

[PhoenixRivers]

Has your character been approved for qualifiers?

[Nohwl]

i sent a message saying to hold off so i could fix the spell list a bit more. almost done with it.

edit--finished the spell list.

[Claudius Maximus]

DMs:
I am in need of an official ruling I can point to for how DMM interacts with Triadspell (SpC 224). Does DMM: Fell Drain, for instance, 1) have no effect because Triadspell doesn't effect a target itself; 2) effect the first copy of the spell Triadspell allows to be recast; 3) allow all the copies of the spell to be influenced by Fell Drain?

Amphetryon:
I would say 1, since Triadspell affects spell slots, not spells. In any case metamagic feats would be applied to Triadspell itself, not the the spells you affect with it. Quickened Triadspell would not quicken the 3rd level spells, for instance. The only effect would be that you could cast Triadspell as a swift action. The case of Fell Drain is even simpler: you can not apply Fell Drain to Triadspell because Triadspell does not deal damage to any foes.

[Doc Roc]

2010: May 15th.

[theterran]

2010: May 15th.

Ok...what happens then?

[arguskos]

Ok...what happens then?
My bet? Legend hits, which will be awesome.

[Nohwl]

i thought that was the date doc roc said he would be playing a wizard against 4 fighters.

edit--guess i'm looking for an opponent now.

[PhoenixRivers]

i thought that was the date doc roc said he would be playing a wizard against 4 fighters.

Speaking of that... I'm still waiting on fighter development for my wizard. :)

[Eurus]

Speaking of that... I'm still waiting on fighter development for my wizard. :)

Were detailed character creation guidelines for that ever written up?

[PhoenixRivers]

As far as I know, it's core - some of the more blatant abuses gone.

(calling, simulacrum, leadership, dust of sneezing and choking)

Basically, people should more or less know what is covered under most standard gentlemen's agreements.

[Eurus]

As far as I know, it's core - some of the more blatant abuses gone.

(calling, simulacrum, leadership, dust of sneezing and choking)

Basically, people should more or less know what is covered under most standard gentlemen's agreements.

Point buy? I'm assuming 28, but it's good to check. And all of UA (including flaws and traits) is out?

[PhoenixRivers]

Point buy? I'm assuming 28, but it's good to check. And all of UA (including flaws and traits) is out?

Core = If it's not in the Monster Manual, Player's Handbook, or DMG, it's out.
This includes, but is not limited to, XPH, UA, and divine sections of the SRD.

and 28 pb is what the wizard is built on.

[Eurus]

Alright, cool. And... I forget, was EWP for future weapons supposed to be a freebie? Not that it matters much, there aren't nearly enough decent core feats for a fighter anyway...

[PhoenixRivers]

Alright, cool. And... I forget, was EWP for future weapons supposed to be a freebie? Not that it matters much, there aren't nearly enough decent core feats for a fighter anyway...

EWP wasn't free. The guns were free.

[Eurus]

Alright, well, feats picked out, and they're none too impressive. Hopefully items will fill in the gaps, though. I'm probably going to end up asking for advice, since I've never even tried to touch a core fighter before... I have no real frame of reference here.

[Eurus]

Can ranged weapons be made spell storing? They don't appear on the table of ranged weapon enchantments (only melee), but the actual description doesn't mention having to be put on melee, so is this a case of text trumps table? (I'm also assuming that a non-spellcaster can put a spell from a scroll into one, even if that requires using UMD to emulate being a spellcaster).

[PhoenixRivers]

Can ranged weapons be made spell storing? They don't appear on the table of ranged weapon enchantments (only melee), but the actual description doesn't mention having to be put on melee, so is this a case of text trumps table? (I'm also assuming that a non-spellcaster can put a spell from a scroll into one, even if that requires using UMD to emulate being a spellcaster).

The table's a random generation table, anyway. It's technically legal.

However, projectile weapons (such as bows) do not confer the property on their ammunition.

[Eurus]

The table's a random generation table, anyway. It's technically legal.

However, projectile weapons (such as bows) do not confer the property on their ammunition.

Does it work on the guns, then? I don't think you can enchant their power packs, since they aren't technically ammo, but it seems like a bit of a gray area.

[PhoenixRivers]

Does it work on the guns, then? I don't think you can enchant their power packs, since they aren't technically ammo, but it seems like a bit of a gray area.

Spell storing doesn't apply to shots that are essentially rays.

It's a point of contention as to whether it functions on arrows (based on the timing of when they destroy vs when they activate the spell).

[Eurus]

Spell storing doesn't apply to shots that are essentially rays.

It's a point of contention as to whether it functions on arrows (based on the timing of when they destroy vs when they activate the spell).

So you can't make the guns spell storing, and you can't make the power packs spell storing either? Shame...

Question 2, then. Can you take free actions between attacks in a full attack action? I know you can take a 5-foot step, and I think you can take free actions, but I'm not entirely sure.

[PhoenixRivers]

So you can't make the guns spell storing, and you can't make the power packs spell storing either? Shame...

Question 2, then. Can you take free actions between attacks in a full attack action? I know you can take a 5-foot step, and I think you can take free actions, but I'm not entirely sure.

You need rules text to allow a 5 foot step between attacks.

Free actions can be taken whenever they are allowed. For example, speech can be done in the middle of most anything.

Other free actions have their own conditions for use. They may be used whenever they may be used. Sorry for a lack of clarity in that, but free actions really have their use defined by what they DO.

[Eurus]

You need rules text to allow a 5 foot step between attacks.

Free actions can be taken whenever they are allowed. For example, speech can be done in the middle of most anything.

Other free actions have their own conditions for use. They may be used whenever they may be used. Sorry for a lack of clarity in that, but free actions really have their use defined by what they DO.

Meh, figures it couldn't just be something simple and straightforward. Oh well, time to hunt for specific rules.

EDIT: And the "Combat Actions" section of the SRD says that:
The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.
So yeah, I know that works.

[Eurus]

Er... I'm assuming Wish is covered under the "don't really mess with it" clause, so is the ToS rule replacing it in all instances with Miracle in effect? i might buy a Ring of Three Miracles, if it is...

[PhoenixRivers]

Er... I'm assuming Wish is covered under the "don't really mess with it" clause, so is the ToS rule replacing it in all instances with Miracle in effect? i might buy a Ring of Three Miracles, if it is...

Wish isn't too bad, when using the listed effects only. If you're trying for something that's not a legal listed effect, it's a don't mess with it kinda thing. That said, I'm not messing with it.

[Eurus]

Wish isn't too bad, when using the listed effects only. If you're trying for something that's not a legal listed effect, it's a don't mess with it kinda thing. That said, I'm not messing with it.

Not sure, really. It's just good to know what your options are. And a Ring of Wishes seems like it might be a decent panic button.

[PhoenixRivers]

Not sure, really. It's just good to know what your options are. And a Ring of Wishes seems like it might be a decent panic button.

I agree. A rather expensive panic button, but a panic button nonetheless. Granted, not sure how one shot rules for item cost and charged items interacts with ring of wishes.

[Eurus]

I agree. A rather expensive panic button, but a panic button nonetheless. Granted, not sure how one shot rules for item cost and charged items interacts with ring of wishes.

Mm, good point. 100k is pricey, but arguably worth it. Multiplying that by however much makes it an exercise in futility, though.

[PhoenixRivers]

Mm, good point. 100k is pricey, but arguably worth it. Multiplying that by however much makes it an exercise in futility, though.

1 use items are multiplied by 5.

Items with limited charges have their charges divided by 5 instead.

[Draz74]

1 use items are multiplied by 5.

Items with limited charges have their charges divided by 5 instead.

So, 60% of a Wish? Ehhhh ... is that the same as one Limited Wish? :smalltongue:

[Test Of Spite]

Ring of the Beast is now unbanned.
Rainbow Servant's changes have been clarified. It is now a 8/10 casting class.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Anyone want an exhibition with a new Tier 2 minionmancer?

[lvl 1 sharnian]

For the 4 Fighter vs 1 Wizard, is WBL for each individual fighter or is it shared?

[PhoenixRivers]

For the 4 Fighter vs 1 Wizard, is WBL for each individual fighter or is it shared?

760k gold for each character.

Thus, the wizard has 760k, and each fighter has 760k.

Note that calling effects are banned; this includes scrolls and other items that do it. Dust of Sneezing and Choking is likewise unethical, as is Simulacrum.

Basically, we all know the blatant exploits.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Do you have a problem with 4 Mirrors of Opposition vs the Wizard?

[PhoenixRivers]

Do you have a problem with 4 Mirrors of Opposition vs the Wizard?

There is a reason I self banned simulacrum.

[Nohwl]

ok, guess i'm looking for another qualifier.

[Test Of Spite]

ToS Fix: Spellblades now work as per spell-turning.

Weigh in, please?

[PhoenixRivers]

ToS Fix: Spellblades now work as per spell-turning.

Weigh in, please?

More clarification on this.

Primary differences between spell blade and spell turning:

Spellblade has a delay that holds it until your next turn, spell turning works immediately.

Spellblade does not interact with a casting of spell turning, spell turning does.

Spellblade alters the target, Spell turning does not.

Spellblade has no limit to uses, spell turning affects 1d4+6 levels only.

Which of these function as spell turning? Any? All?

[Aharon]

@PhoenixRivers
Add to that list
Spell turning is effective against SR: No spells, Spellblade isn't. :smallwink:
Spell turning isn't effective against touch range spells, spellblade is.

[PhoenixRivers]

@PhoenixRivers
Add to that list
Spell turning is effective against SR: No spells, Spellblade isn't. :smallwink:
Spell turning isn't effective against touch range spells, spellblade is.

I'd put that first one as "Spellblade grants immunity to a spell, spell turning does not.

Both are valid, though.

[9mm]

ToS Fix: Spellblades now work as per spell-turning.

Weigh in, please?
against this; spellblades are limited to a single spell, this would make them an equivlent to the +5 reflecting property for 2000gp; I'd just say you can only have 1 spellblade propertie on the weapon, and you must be actively wielding it for it to be active.

[PhoenixRivers]

against this; spellblades are limited to a single spell, this would make them an equivlent to the +5 reflecting property for 2000gp; I'd just say you can only have 1 spellblade propertie on the weapon, and you must be actively wielding it for it to be active.

As long as Spellblades follow the standard rule for Spell Immunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellImmunity), it's not too bad. In other words, spells which don't allow SR aren't eligible for absorbing. That would prevent people from putting dispels on it. Beyond that, it's not too terribly bad.

[9mm]

As long as Spellblades follow the standard rule for Spell Immunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellImmunity), it's not too bad. In other words, spells which don't allow SR aren't eligible for absorbing. That would prevent people from putting dispels on it. Beyond that, it's not too terribly bad.

I'm pretty sure this is what has prompted the discussion; I know I've done that on more recent characters once I found out about them. The danger lies in a CoDzilla instead of a crazy almagamation of say rouge/hexblade/warblade.

[PhoenixRivers]

I'm pretty sure this is what has prompted the discussion; I know I've done that on more recent characters once I found out about them. The danger lies in a CoDzilla instead of a crazy almagamation of say rouge/hexblade/warblade.

... or something like Fluffy.

[Adumbration]

I'm pretty sure this is what has prompted the discussion; I know I've done that on more recent characters once I found out about them. The danger lies in a CoDzilla instead of a crazy almagamation of say rouge/hexblade/warblade.

There's also the question of exactly how many spellblade shuriken you can wield in one hand.

And whether tying up a whole bunch of them on a quarterstaff counts as wielding. :smallbiggrin:

[9mm]

There's also the question of exactly how many spellblade shuriken you can wield in one hand.
one


And whether tying up a whole bunch of them on a quarterstaff counts as wielding. :smallbiggrin:

thats the reason why I suggested not letting multiple spellblade enhancements on 1 weapon, a quarterstaff theoriticly could hold 2 because it's a double weapon so it would depend on which end is currently the bisness end

[PhoenixRivers]

The idea is that you can only use 1 spellblade at a time, and it doesn't work on SR: No spells.

Make that distinction, and you're fine.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The idea is that you can only use 1 spellblade at a time, and it doesn't work on SR: No spells.

Make that distinction, and you're fine.

how about minions wielding spellblades + chain spell?

[PhoenixRivers]

how about minions wielding spellblades + chain spell?

Elaborate on the intended tactic?

Here's a crack at rendering it OGL friendly. If adopted, it should be considered, in all ways, to be an update of the Spellblade enhancement:
Spellshift: A weapon with this enhancement grants a limited form of Spell Immunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellImmunity) to one spell, selected when the item is crafted. Whenever the wielder is targeted by the spell, the spellblade absorbs the effect. On the wielder's next turn, he may use a free action to retarget the absorbed ability, which then has its normal effect on the new target (if the wielder chooses not to do this, the absorbed spell dissipates harmlessly and is lost). If, for some reason, the selected spell is not targeted but still affects the wielder (for example, turned back by spell turning), the wielder is still immune to the effect, although the spellblade does not absorb it. If a character attempts to wield more than one spellblade at once, none function.
Strong Abjuration; CL 13th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Spell Immunity; Price +6000gp

[Aharon]

@Phoenix
That's a nice solution, but I'm not really seeing the intended use. Under the old interpretation that ignored the spell immunity clause, spellblade was used to protect against dispels - of which there aren't many. Of the top of my head, I can't name any spells that are single target, SR:Yes, and yet enough danger that I would want to be protected against them.

I like Doc Roc's approach better for that reason - it would be a cheap, one-spell-only spell turning (Assuming he will clarify that this was what he meant). One might argue that that would be underpriced at 6000, though.

[PhoenixRivers]

@Phoenix
That's a nice solution, but I'm not really seeing the intended use. Under the old interpretation that ignored the spell immunity clause, spellblade was used to protect against dispels - of which there aren't many. Of the top of my head, I can't name any spells that are single target, SR:Yes, and yet enough danger that I would want to be protected against them.

I like Doc Roc's approach better for that reason - it would be a cheap, one-spell-only spell turning (Assuming he will clarify that this was what he meant). One might argue that that would be underpriced at 6000, though.

I actually developed that while on IM chat with Doc Roc, and posted it for his opinion before bringing it here.

If you're not seeing a super-awesome use for the item, that's great. It's 6,000 gp. It should be about on par with other 6000 gp items.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bagofTricks
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#glovesofSwimmingandClimbing
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#pipesofHaunting
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#horseshoesofaZephyr

Getting where I'm going with this? Immunity to a spell, even a single spell, is a steal at 6000 gp.

[Doc Roc]

I would be willing to see Spellshift move to 10k and include a slightly broader range of possible targets. The issue is that selecting dispel really was extremely problematic, because it would lead to cases where super-tankers had two or three layers of threat management for incoming dispels. I'm not sure this is desirable from a metagame standpoint.

I do like the general thrust, if you will, of the OGL version of spellblade. An additional advantage is that if we do it this way, we can make it an obvious and visible choice by including it in the resources section, instead of an obscure barrier to entry like it has been. It's obviously not perfect, but I think we're moving towards an elegant solution to a persistent question.

[PhoenixRivers]

At 10k, it should be on par with: this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#gloveofStoring), or perhaps a little worse than belt of battle.

However, note: Spell turning effects are priced.

Reflecting shields (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#reflecting) are a +5 bonus (minimum of 35,000gp) for 1 spell, once a day.

I could see 10,000 for a specific spell turned, once a day. I could even see it as automatic (no action required), like a ring of counterspells, except with turning. Hell, I could see it functioning as a ring of counterspells, with the added effect of turning. You want another turn? Cast another spell into it. The unlimited absorption/turning of any one spell, however, is begging for abuse. Attaching a cost after the first, in terms of actions and resources, mitigates the power.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Elaborate on the intended tactic?

As an example:

I get a half-dozen weapons with Spellblade (Enervation).

I then obtain a half-dozen minions, and pass them out to each minion.

I then cast Chain Enervation on the half-dozen minions, probably also targeting the final target.

Next round, all minions release their Enervations on target, likely obliterating it due to level drain.

[PhoenixRivers]

As an example:

I get a half-dozen weapons with Spellblade (Enervation).

I then obtain a half-dozen minions, and pass them out to each minion.

I then cast Chain Enervation on the half-dozen minions, probably also targeting the final target.

Next round, all minions release their Enervations on target, likely obliterating it due to level drain.

Well, beginning play with a half dozen minions is possible, but not easy without summoning in the buff round, and item handouts. Still, yes, it is an effective tactic that uses (at +10k pricing) about 66k, as well as chain spell. I'd say that's a justified expense for such an ability.

And yes, I'd limit spellshifting to melee weapons only.

[Doc Roc]

I think we are probably best served if we make it so that spellshift needs to be reloaded after each turn. It follows the best-case precedent of other, similar and often more expensive items.

[PhoenixRivers]

I think we are probably best served if we make it so that spellshift needs to be reloaded after each turn. It follows the best-case precedent of other, similar and often more expensive items.

Max spell level stored of 6, and automatically turns the next casting of whatever spell is stored in it?

Basically: Functions as a ring of counterspells, except that the next casting of the spell that is targeted on the wielder is turned, as per spell turning?

[Claudius Maximus]

Added the following rule:

Extend Spell and Persistent Spell do not stack to result in a 48-hour duration.

This has actually been the case for a while, but for whatever reason it seems it never made it onto the banlist. We're now making it more visible.

Is anyone aware of any other rules that may have slipped through the cracks like this? I don't imagine unwritten rules are conducive to new players, and the last thing we need is more entry barriers.

[9mm]

Added the following rule:

Extend Spell and Persistent Spell do not stack to result in a 48-hour duration.

This has actually been the case for a while, but for whatever reason it seems it never made it onto the banlist. We're now making it more visible.

Is anyone aware of any other rules that may have slipped through the cracks like this? I don't imagine unwritten rules are conducive to new players, and the last thing we need is more entry barriers.

last I checked the HARD fighter ban you cited is not up yet.

[PhoenixRivers]

Updated Spellshifting, to account for the direction that the discussion's taken:

Spellshifting:
An armor with this ability allows a single spell of 6th level or lower to be cast into it, which cannot be cast out of the armor again. Instead, should that spell ever be cast targeting the wearer, the spell is immediately turned, as per Spell Turning, requiring no action (or even knowledge) on the wearer’s part. Once so used, the spell cast within the armor is gone. A new spell (or the same one as before) may be placed in it again.
Strong abjuration; CL 13th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Spell Turning; Price +10,000gp.

Primary Alterations: Treated as an actual spell-turning effect, allowing for SR:No spells.

Only turns one spell before recharge is required, and requires resources to do so.

Altered from Weapon enhancement to armor. Armor enhancement seems more fitting for a protective abjuration. Also solves most chain summon options, and multi-use tricks.

In exchange, allows the spell within it to change, as the wearer dictates.

[Claudius Maximus]

last I checked the HARD fighter ban you cited is not up yet.
I was going off this:

Fighter is replaced by War-marked (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AQy814N0Rw6OZGdzNHBid3dfM2NjbXo5Mmcy&hl=en) which uses these marks (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0Aclf_LtvhqMlZGhwbTc4OTlfNTYyNnh2dmM1&hl=en)
<snip>
These updates are no longer optional.
I figured that if the Fighter is replaced completely, it's essentially the same as banning the Fighter. If this is not the case and people can still use the Fighter, I apologize. If so, the above text is rather confusing and should probably be changed.

[Doc Roc]

I have a VERY strong preference that people use war-marked, because that sucker needs all the testing it can get.

[Aharon]

Do rules changes apply to characters that were already submitted? For example, there's a submission by T.G. Oskar that uses the old paladin, can that still be used?

[PhoenixRivers]

Do rules changes apply to characters that were already submitted? For example, there's a submission by T.G. Oskar that uses the old paladin, can that still be used?

All rules changes apply for all characters that intend to be approved for qualifiers.

[Doc Roc]

Do rules changes apply to characters that were already submitted? For example, there's a submission by T.G. Oskar that uses the old paladin, can that still be used?

Normally, no. But we owe TG quite a bit, so I'm willing to make an exception just this once.

[Claudius Maximus]

So is there anyone out there who I've already contacted for sheet checking, who is waiting for a response from me? I'm under the impression that I'm waiting for the players to respond in all my correspondences, but some have lagged for so long I'm beginning to wonder.

[Il_Vec]

I am lagging and apologize, just haven't had the time to plow through books lately.

[Claudius Maximus]

That's fine. I'm mostly worried there's someone out there who's waiting on me, and I have no idea about it.

[T.G. Oskar]

Normally, no. But we owe TG quite a bit, so I'm willing to make an exception just this once.

You...owe me quite a bit? Not...entirely sure how...

Granted: I've done some formatting for War-marked and [CENSORED], and I still have to do the formatting for Barbarian and Monk (I haven't forgotten; that's just how lazy I am). Oh, and mostly began on sheet-checking.

Though; compared to, say, the GMs or the rest of the sheet-checkers or the ban-seekers (:P)...not THAT much...

[Mystic Muse]

I looked at the ban list and am Curious about a few of these.

Dusk Giants do not exist. I don't really know what these are or where they're from so I can't check their stats.

shambling mounds do not exist what exactly about these is so bad? I didn't notice anything.

[PhoenixRivers]

I looked at the ban list and am Curious about a few of these.

Dusk Giants do not exist. I don't really know what these are or where they're from so I can't check their stats.

shambling mounds do not exist what exactly about these is so bad? I didn't notice anything.

Shambling mounds are usable in infinite(technically arbitrarily high) HP combos. With one, I could walks around with over 100,000 HP, and have my lowest save be in the range of +3000.

[Doc Roc]

Dusk giants, in heroes of horror, have an (ex) ability called cannibalize. It is much like the feed ability of the barghests, with the crucial exception of the fact that, again, it is (ex). Worse, it is listed in correctly under special attacks.

This makes it an (ex) special attack, which....
Is extremely bad. Literally just hilariously awful.

[Adumbration]

Is any way to abuse them without Wildshape and Polymorph? Just seeing that both are banned.

[Doc Roc]

Is any way to abuse them without Wildshape and Polymorph? Just seeing that both are banned.

Yes, there are a few.

[Amphetryon]

Is any way to abuse them without Wildshape and Polymorph? Just seeing that both are banned.

It seems without the ban in place they'd be summonable, at 1st glance in my HoH copy....

[imperialspectre]

Also, they're examples of truly awful design. They should be excluded more or less on principle.

Isn't that why we banned Fighter and Monk, after all?

[PhoenixRivers]

It seems without the ban in place they'd be summonable, at 1st glance in my HoH copy....

And anything that can be summoned can be mind switched.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Shambling mounds are usable in infinite(technically arbitrarily high) HP combos. With one, I could walks around with over 100,000 HP, and have my lowest save be in the range of +3000.

You could have arbitrarily high all three saves as well, with a couple of feats thrown in.

Unless you have Assay Energy Resistance or some method of bypassing defenses, you wouldn't have much in the way of offense, but nearly impossible to truly kill...

[Doc Roc]

Also, they're examples of truly awful design. They should be excluded more or less on principle.

Isn't that why we banned Fighter and Monk, after all?

I've always wondered about that.... My suspicion is that whoever wrote heroes of horror knew EXACTLY what he was doing, and set out to create a book that was quite literally an unliving terror.

[PhoenixRivers]

I've always wondered about that.... My suspicion is that whoever wrote heroes of horror knew EXACTLY what he was doing, and set out to create a book that was quite literally an unliving terror.

In both a thematic and mechanical sense, it seems.

[Mystic Muse]

Well, I like the Dread witch and Fiend blooded PRCs.....

[Amphetryon]

Well, I like the Dread witch and Fiend blooded PRCs.....

Fiend-blooded would be considerably better if the spontaneous casters for whom it appears designed could actually finish it pre-Epic without shenanigans.

[Mystic Muse]

Fiend-blooded would be considerably better if the spontaneous casters for whom it appears designed could actually finish it pre-Epic without shenanigans.

Why can't they? I don't have access to the book right now. PM me before it goes more off topic.

Probably not going to get it anymore if the only two things I was ever going to use from that book aren't going to work.

[Doc Roc]

Why can't they? I don't have access to the book right now. PM me before it goes more off topic.

Probably not going to get it anymore if the only two things I was ever going to use from that book aren't going to work.

Issues with skill reqs, if I remember. However, they are fixable, and the book is a superb resource in a lot of respects. There's no villain quite as ridiculous as a Tainted Scholar.

[Boci]

Issues with skill reqs, if I remember.

Knowledge (the planes) 8 ranks. Could just be halved to 4.


However, they are fixable, and the book is a superb resource in a lot of respects. There's no villain quite as ridiculous as a Tainted Scholar.

Agreed. The only other possible complaint is how short it is.

[Amphetryon]

This one in the SRD is pretty close to Tainted Scholar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/taint.htm#taintedSorcerer).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

This one in the SRD is pretty close to Tainted Scholar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/taint.htm#taintedSorcerer).

Somewhat muted by Con damage, and Wisdom penalties. Still, with an exceedingly high Wis score, you can rack up some pretty stupid DC's...

[Olo Demonsbane]

Proposed Rule Change:
(Great) Cleave and Whirlwind Attack work on Mirror images.

Not only does it make implicit sense, it also allows a (small) use for these feats in an enviornment where they are otherwise completely useless.



On a completely different note, any challenges for my Tier 2-ish Minionmancer?

[imperialspectre]

Okay, so the thing we were announcing for today is on Valve Time as of two hours from now, because Jake had a wedding to go to. Expect it tomorrow.

[Glimbur]

I'm still spoiling for a quick fight. The character is Tier 4 or 3, but a rather ridiculous tier 3.

[Doc Roc]

Looks like we'll get to release the classes now, though a smidge late!

[Olo Demonsbane]

Looks like we'll get to release the classes now, though a smidge late!

:smallbiggrin:

I've been looking forward to this...

:smallbiggrin:

[imperialspectre]

Penny Dreadful Gaming presents Legend - Alpha Release, Non-Casting Classes only

The link's no longer available. See the Rule of Cool website (http://www.ruleofcool.com) for more information. Enjoy.

[imperialspectre]

Sorry for the double-post, but this post is from me, not Penny Dreadful Gaming as a whole.

First off, the release is mostly for ToS people, partly because you guys are awesome critics -cough- I meant evaluators, and partly because we absolutely wouldn't be doing this without Test of Spite.

Second, direct criticism, flames, and suggestion to either Jake (Doc Roc) or myself. PMs are fine, or you can use the email address listed as owner on gdox.

Third, I'm really excited about this, especially after the amazing reaction and help many of you gave us for War-Marked. :smallsmile:

Edit: And of course this one shows up on a new page, instead of the previous one. Check the previous page for the important announcement.

[sofawall]

This is going to be stream of consciousness as I read it. Just a warning.

HD=Level: Just for PCs, or is an Ogre (for example, I know it will be eventually changed) treated as a level 4 as well?

Barbarian: Powerful Rage: Isn't that what made Half-Minotaur so ridiculous?
Heart of Fury: And how do the temp HP work?
Cleave: "Normal melee damage" is going to be ambiguous, I can tell.
Whirlwind: See above.
Disrupting Presence: DNE?
Terrifying Presence: How about "At the start of your turn" instead of "On your turn"? How long does it last?
Shiva's Charge: See Cleave
Greater Readiness: Is an action type necessary?
Path of the Ancestors: Seems a tad weaker overall.



Moving onto Monk now... I'll send this to one or both of you, but posting it here helps me get my thoughts in order.

Oh, also, Jake? Seeing Jacob listed as an author made me think, "Wait, where's Jake?" I seriously had to think for a few.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Wow, 38 pages!?! :smalleek:

You guys have been working hard on this one...I'll send you anything interesting I find when I'm done... :smallsmile:

[Doc Roc]

Wow, 38 pages!?! :smalleek:

You guys have been working hard on this one...I'll send you anything interesting I find when I'm done... :smallsmile:

This is a little less than half what we got. Brace for impact. :)

[Il_Vec]

Just... Got... Rick... Rolld... By... a... Rogue... 's... Track...




Path of the Ancestors: Seems a tad weaker overall.


Mettle, Fast Healing, Bonus to Init... It might not be as flashy, but didn't strike me as weak...

[imperialspectre]

This is going to be stream of consciousness as I read it. Just a warning.

HD=Level: Just for PCs, or is an Ogre (for example, I know it will be eventually changed) treated as a level 4 as well?

See, that's the key to Legend's mechanical balance. I actually wrote up a sample statblock for an Ogre - a 3rd-level Giant (that's one track) with the Ranger's Tracking Discipline and the Barbarian's Path of Destruction. Statblock follows:

Ogre, CR 3
Large Giant (Tracking Discipline primary, Path of Destruction secondary)
Hit Dice: 3d10+16 (46)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 40 feet
Armor Class: 14 (+3 level, +1 item, -1 Dexterity, +2 natural, -1 size)
Base Attack: 3
Melee Attack: Head Crusha (Large-sized greatclub) +10 hit, 3d6+6 damage
Ranged Attack: Pointy Stick (Large-sized javelin) +4 hit, 2d6+6 damage
Space/Reach: 10 feet/10 feet
Special Attacks: Cleave
Special Qualities: Darkvision
Saves: Fortitude 8, Reflex 3, Will 3
Abilities: STR 22 (16 +2 racial +4 size), DEX 8 (12 -2 racial -2 size), CON 18 (14 +2 racial +2 size), INT 8 (10 -2 racial), WIS 14, CHA 8
Skills: Acrobatics +2, Athletics +9, Nature +2, Intimidate +2, Perception +5
Feats: TBD

The bottom line is, a PC can totally be an Ogre. And that PC would gain bits of the Giant track, the Tracking track (lol), and the Destruction track as the PC leveled. And we intend for it to be balanced that way.


Barbarian: Powerful Rage: Isn't that what made Half-Minotaur so ridiculous?
Heart of Fury: And how do the temp HP work?
Cleave: "Normal melee damage" is going to be ambiguous, I can tell.
Whirlwind: See above.
Disrupting Presence: DNE?
Terrifying Presence: How about "At the start of your turn" instead of "On your turn"? How long does it last?
Shiva's Charge: See Cleave
Greater Readiness: Is an action type necessary?
Path of the Ancestors: Seems a tad weaker overall.


This stuff is why it's in alpha. Some of them are results of poor writing and the fact that I handled all the proofing, and a couple are unanticipated problems. We'll cover these things in the beta, hopefully. Thanks. :)

[Il_Vec]

Off-topic...



Melee Attack: Head Crusha (Large-sized greatclub) +10 hit, 3d6+6 damage


Death by a Head Crusha. Head CRUSHA!
Megadeth anyone?

On topic:

Can you play it (the Ogre) from level 1? Monstrous characters never receive enough attention from WotC...

EDIT: Just realized, this actually isn't on topic...

[Doc Roc]

Off-topic...



Death by a Head Crusha. Head CRUSHA!
Megadeth anyone?

On topic:

Can you play it (the Ogre) from level 1? Monstrous characters never receive enough attention from WotC...

EDIT: Just realized, this actually isn't on topic...

Yes, you could.

[imperialspectre]

You can, in fact, play a succubus or a dragon from level 1, it's just that there's a special, additional track (called the Legendary track) that changes your type if you're one of the special Built of Awesome monsters. Like, for example, a real true wyrm, or an angel on track to be a solar. Succubi, on the other hand, basically are just a Rogue track, a generic mind-bending track, and the Fiend track (which we haven't written yet, but you get the picture).

[The Shadowmind]

Question with the tracks: With them does this mean a Barbarain who is Ancestral track, gains no class features till level 3? Or does the Barbarian get all three tracks, but can swap a track out with the yet-to-be released multiclass feature?