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Mauther
2010-04-29, 04:43 PM
I have a simple but boring request. I need help building a dual utility character. My party already has plenty of arcane and clerical support. But we have no “fighter” type and no rogue type. So I’m looking for suggestions for a decent front line meat shield who can also double down with some of the rogue duties (traps, locks, utility skills.) We re restricted to the Complete Books, PHB, PHB2, but no psionics.

The no brainer is a vanilla fighter/rogue combo but I’m sure we can do better than that. I did consider asking for the Thug-variant fighter from unearted arcane. But I need someone who can hold the line and present a creditable melee threat, while also being able to at least do 2 useful non combat tasks (detect/disarm traps, open locks, track, etc). I can make a perfectly functional build, but I was curious if someone could make philly cheesesteak out of the bologna sandwhich I've given you.

Prodan
2010-04-29, 04:54 PM
How about the variant ranger who trades Track for Trapfinding?

Tinydwarfman
2010-04-29, 04:58 PM
Be a cleric. Seriously. Everyone knows that clerics can melee, but they can be decent skillmonkeys too with the right feat/domain choices. Works better at higher levels though with cloistered cleric and trickery/luck domains.

gdiddy
2010-04-29, 05:36 PM
I like Prodan's idea.

Failing that, I was making you a spiked chain Fighter2/ Ninja x Jotunbrud Human Tripper, but my browser window crashed.

She had Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Power Attack, Cleave, Enduring Ki, Stand Still.

It was invisible a lot, and mostly functioned by virtue of the fact that it could add sneak attack dice to everything. You're in a party with all magic users. Have them turn you into a hydra if things get that dicey.

Eldariel
2010-04-29, 05:46 PM
TWF Swift Hunter (Ranger/Scout) is fine. Travel Devotion, maybe Kusari-Gamas for Tripping (and thus some control-ability), profit. It'll be an unconventional, but efficient melee skill monkey/damage dealer/controller. Only problem is cramped spaces where you don't have much room for movement, but as you only need 10', you should be able to work around that pretty well and use your Ranger-spells when things really get too tight for you to deal damage; you can still control just fine.

And yeah, Cloistered Cleric can do pretty much exactly what you want. DMM: Persist buffs, pick e.g. Improved Trip, pick Kobold-domain (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) (either through a domain or Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment [Planar Handbook] if you don't qualify for the Domain), go Clericzilla.

Equally efficient, Able Learner [RoD] Ninja 1/Druid 19 is a very, very efficient option using Animal Companion + buffs to tank early on and then joining in in Wildshape himself on level 6. Makes use of Druid's ability to focus purely on Con and mental stats (you'll be great Spotter AND Trapfinder AND Diplomat AND Senser AND Sneak), and still kick ass with Wildshape; Wisdom to AC from Ninja doesn't hurt at all, and neither does Sudden Strike if you pick sneaky skills. Druid Summons are also useful for when you need healbots or more tanking or such.

Then, Daring Outlaw (Swashbuckler/Rogue) with some Swordsage could be made for this. Same goes the other way: Swordsage with some Rogue can be a respectable melee'er and have good skills so few levels of Rogue and Swashbuckler get you some Sneak Attack and Trapfinding, and Able Learner means you can be a trapfinding Swordsage (SS has 6+Int skills). Swordsage can generate flankers for himself and you could pick up Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) to help; actually, thinking about it, regardless of what you go for, a Wild Cohort might be a good idea for a second "tank" and a flanker and such (other than Druid, where you have plenty of tanking capability already).

Finally, straight Factotum can add Int to Strength-checks making for a very, very efficient controller and a decent damage dealer, especially with Iaijutsu Focus [Oriental Adventures] and maybe some tricks from Haberdash's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633) playbook. Gladiator-mask would enable you to function just fine there. But yeah, melee-focused Factotum is definitely doable, and by default Factotum kick ass as trapfinders. Dungeonscape isn't on the allowed list, but c'est la vie; you could ask for it as DS is pretty close and Factotum does what you want very well.


Just say which of those (or other ideas stated here) sounds most appealing to you and we can extrapolate on it. This is doable in numerous ways so it comes down to your preference.

nedz
2010-04-29, 06:57 PM
If you must do Trapfinding then your options are reduced to
Rogue, Scout, Ninja (Ignoring Artificer, Beguiler, Spellthief because they seem to match your requirments even less.)
Still you only need one level of one of these to get Trapfinding.

So all you need to do now is work out what kind of MS you want to play, and then find some means to get some skill points.
There are so many options I don't know what to suggest.

Scout/Ranger Swifthunter has been mentioned.
Feat Rogue perhaps ?

Find an interesting PRC and head for that.

Ravens_Wing
2010-04-29, 08:21 PM
Might I suggest a Barbarian/Rogue mix as a nonstandard but ammusing to play variation.

Tinydwarfman
2010-04-29, 08:24 PM
A one level dip into rogue (at first level of course) with Able Learner will get you all the skill you need w/ cloistered cleric after that if you choose to go the cleric/rogue route. And it also qualifies you for Craven, giving you an impressive sneak attack even though you only normally have 1d6.

Zeta Kai
2010-04-29, 08:28 PM
Beg your DM to allow you to play a Factotum. You won't be sorry. Factotums are sweet.

The Rabbler
2010-04-29, 08:31 PM
there's always factotum to make things fun. max iaijutsu (it's surprising how many problems this solves), grab quick draw, quick sheath, and grab craven. pick up a ToB class (probably either warblade or swordsage) and pick up IHS and that stance that gives you +2d6 sneak attack. if you pick warblade, grab the stance via martial stance and vice versa.

after that (you'd need to be level 10-ish to make it start being awesome) pick up whatever you want. through factotum you've got all of the skills you could ever need and through warblade/swordsage, you've got piles of damage. from there you can specialize into whatever you want (i've heard monk is fun :smallamused:).

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-29, 08:39 PM
Yes, factotum is awesome. If you can get it added to the list. You'll want to take several instances of Font of Inspiration (Google the Dungeonscape web enhancement), if you want to be the factotumiest factotum that ever factotum'd.

Or, you could take levels in martial rogue and intersperse them with thug fighter, if you want better skills and better martial ability than just rogue/fighter alone. Make yourself a changeling and head into chameleon later on, once you've got what feats you want, and hit those Races of Eberron alternative rogue class features for even more awesomeness (assuming you can, anyway).

Mastikator
2010-04-29, 08:45 PM
I have a suggestion that may or may not work. If you start by taking a level in rogue, put 4 ranks in disable device, then multiclass to.. lets say barbarian, can you put one rank in disable device again, putting it to 5? Or do you need to wait until you're level 6 for that?

Because if you can then you can start by taking a level in rogue, then take the remaining levels in something else, except the last, which goes back to rogue (for evasion, and some extra skill points). If you go as a human barb you can still max out search, lockpick, disable device, sleight of hand if you have 16 int. 12 int if you go ranger.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-29, 08:48 PM
I have a suggestion that may or may not work. If you start by taking a level in rogue, put 4 ranks in disable device, then multiclass to.. lets say barbarian, can you put one rank in disable device again, putting it to 5? Or do you need to wait until you're level 6 for that?

Because if you can then you can start by taking a level in rogue, then take the remaining levels in something else, except the last, which goes back to rogue (for evasion, and some extra skill points). If you go as a human barb you can still max out search, lockpick, disable device, sleight of hand if you have 16 int. 12 int if you go ranger.Levels in classes that have a skill as cross-class are still cross-class, but the number of ranks you can get in one skill are capped as though they come from the one with the skill as a class skill.

For instance, your first example, the barbarian could spend 2 skill points to get Disable Device up to 5 ranks.

Darrin
2010-04-29, 08:48 PM
So I’m looking for suggestions for a decent front line meat shield who can also double down with some of the rogue duties (traps, locks, utility skills.) We re restricted to the Complete Books, PHB, PHB2, but no psionics.


Is the Spell Compendium allowed? If no, then I'm leaning towards the Ranger ACF that trades spellcasting for bonus feats (although there are a few really nice ranger spells in PHBII). Particularly if you can add the Trapfinding ACF from Dungeonscape. The other way to get Trapfinding as a ranger with those particular books would be a Swift Hunter build such as Scout 4/Ranger 16.

Godskook
2010-04-29, 09:19 PM
Adding another vote for a swift hunter. With 6+int skill points on your *bad* levels, and full BAB, you should be able to do a decent skill-monkey+frontline build off it.

Add in wildshape from unearthed arcana(As a druid of your ranger level!) and find a form that's got a significant amount of natural attacks to play off your bonus skirmish damage. Draconic wildshape will make this one rather easy, honestly.

gdiddy
2010-04-29, 09:25 PM
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869062/6_hits_to_1_Jack_B_Quick

Three levels of rogue, then start on this. This is what you want. Or better, space out the levels of rogue to keep your skills high.

Fizban
2010-04-30, 12:07 AM
I second Trapfinding Ranger or Trapsmashing Barbarian (Dungeonscape?).

Alternatively, take any normal fighter build, and add a few levels of Feat Rogue (Unearthed Arcana). Start with Feat Rogue for the 4x skill points, then take a few levels of Fighter, then take a level of Rogue, and so on. Rogue gives you 8+int skill points, more than enough to catch up your Search and Disable Device (screw Open Lock, that's what Disable Device and hammers are for) every few levels. Grab a nice set of magic lockpicks and you should be set. You end up with a few less hp and that's pretty much it. Heck, play a Mongrelfolk for +4 con and put your highest stat in it, then play straight Feat Rogue with a Fighter dip for weapon and armor proficiencies.

Now, if you wanted one of those fancy Prestige Class builds you'll have to find the feat that lets you treat a skill as a class skill and take it twice. I don't know what book it's in.

Eldariel
2010-04-30, 12:19 AM
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869062/6_hits_to_1_Jack_B_Quick

Three levels of rogue, then start on this. This is what you want. Or better, space out the levels of rogue to keep your skills high.

Uhm, Jack B. Quick is an anti-melee optimization Fighter 20 specifically built to use N feats; are you sure this is the way he wants to go given he needs skillmonkey levels and there are much more efficient ways of...well, being efficient in melee while having skillmonkery, most of which have been stated here (Cleric, Ninja/Druid, Swift Hunter, etc.)?

Jack B. Quick is decent as far as Fighter 20 goes, but it's specialized on killing other martial types and specifically built to be a Fighter 20 rather than anything else even though something else would give you better returns.


Now, if you wanted one of those fancy Prestige Class builds you'll have to find the feat that lets you treat a skill as a class skill and take it twice. I don't know what book it's in.

No such feat except for one in Unearthed Arcana that's for an alternative skill system. However, Able Learner means you always buy skill ranks at 1 point-per-rank basis meaning basically all skills that have ever been class skills for you are class skills for you now.

It's in Races of Destiny, unfortunately still not within allowed sources, but probably much more discussable (especially when it's such a simple, unbroken feat that merely enables him to play what he wants to play).

gdiddy
2010-04-30, 12:42 AM
You are right. Jack doesn't make the most sense in this situation. He'll need flaws or a bonus feat variant rogue for Jack to fly with Rogue 3/ Fighter 17. Unfortunately, Jack's main advantage offers no synergy with Sneak Attack.

:smallconfused:

Actually, I'm not sure why I suggested it.

Vizzerdrix
2010-04-30, 01:54 AM
UA Generic warrior? D10 hd, full bab, and you can pick what skills ya want.

Escheton
2010-04-30, 02:13 AM
Orc Rogue/barbarian
Everything off str and dex. Feat: tactile trapsmith
Exotic weapon prof: orc shotput+quickdraw= fun

Avaril
2010-04-30, 10:19 AM
Get your DM to run Pathfinder. Once a class skill, always a class skill. Start off as a rogue, then jump ship into ranger or fighter. Fighter will mean you'll take a hit on skill points, but you might still have enough to max out whichever rogue skills you need.

Greenish
2010-04-30, 10:46 AM
I've never played an artificer, but from what I've heard they can be built to be decent frontliners. Trapfinding and godly UMD are given.

Eldariel
2010-04-30, 10:52 AM
I've never played an artificer, but from what I've heard they can be built to be decent frontliners. Trapfinding and godly UMD are given.

They rely on Arcane/Divine Buffs from Wands to do it, but yeah, it can be done. Particularly if playing with Polymorph.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-30, 11:03 AM
You could maybe try a divine minion master of many forms/chameleon/warshaper//warblade 2/crusader2/psychic warrior 2/swordsage2/warblade2/etc. You've got a smattering of casting, but you're incredibly versatile, due to all the forms you can take. Nab a bunch of iterations of Assume Supernatural Ability (and if you dip psychic warrior 1 and Practiced Manifester, as many Metamorphic Transfers as you can get your hands on).

There's not a whole lot that this build can't take on.

Human Paragon 3
2010-04-30, 11:10 AM
I second UA generic warrior. Pick your skills. Pick your feats. Tank and find traps as you wish.

Togo
2010-04-30, 11:55 AM
You could maybe try a divine minion master of many forms/chameleon/warshaper//warblade 2/crusader2/psychic warrior 2/swordsage2/warblade2/etc. You've got a smattering of casting, but you're incredibly versatile, due to all the forms you can take. Nab a bunch of iterations of Assume Supernatural Ability (and if you dip psychic warrior 1 and Practiced Manifester, as many Metamorphic Transfers as you can get your hands on).
There's not a whole lot that this build can't take on.

How does a divine minion get you into Master of Many Forms? Unlike warshaper, it specifies wild shape as a class ability...

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-30, 12:32 PM
How does a divine minion get you into Master of Many Forms? Unlike warshaper, it specifies wild shape as a class ability...And you can use divine minion to wild shape as an 11th level druid, meaning you gain the class ability.

Mauther
2010-04-30, 02:52 PM
Thanks for the suggestions. Unfortunately, psionics is out as are Blade based characters (warblade, crusdader). I can probably argue for unearthed, it’s a source the DM is at least comfortable with. I hadn’t considered ninja because…well, its ninja. Never dreamed someone would consider it useful.

I must shamefacedly admit I never looked at the Factotum. I may ask the DM for that to be allowed. I’ll have to take some time looking at it to see just how it works, but I like the idea a lot. Horrible name though. Don't see iajitsu getting through the approval process though.

One thing to bear in mind, this build has to be able to work from a relatively low level. We’re currently at 4th. So anything that requires 10 levels to click ain’t going to do it. I’m looking at some of the various swift hunter builds, that’s probably a way to go, especially if I can use some urban variants to make it more dungeon friendly. I’ll admit to be tempted by the barb/rogue just for the sake of being different.

Eldariel
2010-04-30, 03:06 PM
Thanks for the suggestions. Unfortunately, psionics is out as are Blade based characters (warblade, crusdader). I can probably argue for unearthed, it’s a source the DM is at least comfortable with. I hadn’t considered ninja because…well, its ninja. Never dreamed someone would consider it useful.

I must shamefacedly admit I never looked at the Factotum. I may ask the DM for that to be allowed. I’ll have to take some time looking at it to see just how it works, but I like the idea a lot. Horrible name though. Don't see iajitsu getting through the approval process though.

One thing to bear in mind, this build has to be able to work from a relatively low level. We’re currently at 4th. So anything that requires 10 levels to click ain’t going to do it. I’m looking at some of the various swift hunter builds, that’s probably a way to go, especially if I can use some urban variants to make it more dungeon friendly. I’ll admit to be tempted by the barb/rogue just for the sake of being different.

Every one of the builds I gave you is workable on level 4. Cloistered Cleric is a bit squishy at that point, but he's a respectable combatant still, and Ninja/Druid already has e.g. Dire Bat or Fleshraker, while Swift Hunter is well into both, Scout and Ranger already about to pick up its namesake feat.

And Swashbuckler/Rogue is two levels from the feat with Insightful Strike and 1d6 SA probably (or 2d6 SA and no Insightful Strike). And Factotum is Factotum from level 1; you're adding your Int to Str-checks now so you can make a scary good Factotum Tripper on these levels.


So...yeah. Low level: Not a problem.

Human Paragon 3
2010-04-30, 03:25 PM
Consider Barbarian/Scout instead with the cityscape web enhancement to urbanify it. You'll be jumping off walls and skirmishing the crap out of people.

MonarchAnarch
2010-04-30, 03:34 PM
Do a Dragonfire Inspiration Bard 3/Barbarian or fighter X. You'll have the HP and the damage to prove the "frontline" role with plenty of rogue-ish skills from starting with Bard. Throw in some able learner and your done.

Up the inspiration with badge of valor, vest of legends, etc.

Eldariel
2010-04-30, 03:36 PM
Do a Dragonfire Inspiration Bard 3/Barbarian or fighter X. You'll have the HP and the damage to prove the "frontline" role with plenty of rogue-ish skills from starting with Bard. Throw in some able learner and your done.

Up the inspiration with badge of valor, vest of legends, etc.

If he's supposed to be Trapfinder too, that won't do though.

deuxhero
2010-04-30, 03:37 PM
Play a Malconvoker. You can use summon monster 1/summon elemental reserve feat for traps and your class features for tanking!

MonarchAnarch
2010-04-30, 03:54 PM
If he's supposed to be Trapfinder too, that won't do though.

Unseen servant and summon monster 1 (Or 2 if Bard 4) gets the job done 8 times out of 10.

Eldariel
2010-04-30, 04:13 PM
Unseen servant and summon monster 1 (Or 2 if Bard 4) gets the job done 8 times out of 10.

It's the 2 out of 10 (or 5, your DMs may vary) that's the problem. Summoning monsters is a decent trapfinder/breaker tactic too but the issue is that it doesn't work on all traps and actively sucks against some.

dspeyer
2010-05-01, 01:21 AM
If ToB is allowed, you may find swordsage useful. 6+int skills, good list, and enough manuevers to outfight a ranger despite 3/4 bab. It doesn't get trapfinding, but a rogue dip will fix that.