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Tavar
2010-04-29, 06:49 PM
I know that the Dragon Shaman is regarded as pretty poor, but it seems to have some unusual mechanics, specifically the aura. I like the idea of buffing a party, but none of the classes that use them seem decent(I've heard that the Marshal is bad, but I've never actually seen it). So, are there any decent aura based classes, or fixes for the ones already out there?

vampire2948
2010-04-29, 06:52 PM
Marshal from the Miniatures Handbook also has auras. But it is very poor indeed.

There're various fixes across the internets.

sonofzeal
2010-04-29, 06:55 PM
Marshal, Dragon Shaman, Paladin (sorta), and Divine Mind. Most of those are considered generally or thoroughly sub-par, but with judicious mixing and a bit of Bard Inspire Courage cheese thrown in, you can make a terrifyingly effective character. Aim for the Saint template for extra lulz.

demidracolich
2010-04-29, 06:56 PM
Look up the Warlord class homebrewed by The Demented One.
It has full BAB, heavy armor and martial weapon proficience, and manuveurs(ToB class).

Tavar
2010-04-29, 07:47 PM
Huh, The Demented One's marshal does seem nice, but the aura's seem to not be a main focus. I'm looking more for a fix for a aura based class. May have found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147604), though there don't seem to be others.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-29, 07:48 PM
I know that the Dragon Shaman is regarded as pretty poor, but it seems to have some unusual mechanics, specifically the aura. I like the idea of buffing a party, but none of the classes that use them seem decent(I've heard that the Marshal is bad, but I've never actually seen it). So, are there any decent aura based classes, or fixes for the ones already out there?

Pathfinder Pally has more auras.
Binder can get a few from his vestiges.
5th lv of Incandescene Champion has a foe damaging aura to those adjacent.
Archivist has a Dark knowkledge-aura (he can let others hit/damage better versus creature types if succeed on check). It works like an aura at least.

UglyPanda
2010-04-29, 08:20 PM
Marshall Excerpt for those who haven't seen it. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b)

It's not horrible, but I don't like it unless I'm running an army*. It's considered a Tier 4 and is incredibly dip-able, but it's so very boring.

*And even then, the subcommanders are marshals, not my character.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-30, 07:49 AM
i've seen marshal and DS combined to do some fun stuff.. Mostly just party buffer.

Character had maxed out Charisma... went enough DS levels to get the lay on hands ability went some marshel then i think dragon lord.
Grabed dual aura thing at 12.

HE would have 4 auras up at any one time. 2 from ds 2 from marshal.

Optimystik
2010-04-30, 07:52 AM
Divine Mi- Ha ha hee hee ho.

*wipes tears*

Dragonfire Adept can get auras via a feat right? Making it better in almost every way than DS.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-30, 07:54 AM
Divine Mi- Ha ha hee hee ho.

*wipes tears*

Dragonfire Adept can get auras via a feat right? Making it better in almost every way than DS.

ya but there not as good as DS's...

o does the feat stack with DS's auras... can you grab the feat to have a 2nd active aura before double draconic?

MonarchAnarch
2010-04-30, 07:55 AM
I've had one marshal and loved it. He was a cohort for my mounted charger Blackguard, so the bonus to charge attacks aura was amazing...especially since all my other followers were mounted chargers as well.

Optimystik
2010-04-30, 08:09 AM
ya but there not as good as DS's...

The other class features make up for it.

If they were as good as a DS then it would be downright shameful - there'd be no reason for the DS to exist.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-30, 08:12 AM
The other class features make up for it.

If they were as good as a DS then it would be downright shameful - there'd be no reason for the DS to exist.

agreed.

I don't see why every one rags on the DS so much, its a fun class.. Not to complicated, can be alot of fun right out of the box.

As powerfull as a wizard/warlock/caster type no.
but i'd say its on par with most melee.

Person_Man
2010-04-30, 08:26 AM
RagnaroksChosen is correct about the Dragon Lord from Dragon Magic providing auras. But it also sucks.

Vow of Peace gives you a Calm Emotions aura, which is sorta a buff if your party wants to solve everything with roleplaying.

IIRC the Mythic Examplar and Divine Mind grant some sort of buff auras as well.

Blackguard, Hexblade, Binder, Paladin of Tyranny all have debuff auras, which are essentially the same as buffing your friends.

Various Devotion and Divine feats grants uras.

Dilate Aura feat: Doubles the range of any aura. Fiendish Codex II.

Marshal is good for a one level dip to gain your Cha bonus to all Str checks (Trip, Bull Rush, Grapple) or Dex checks (Skills, Initiative) or Cha checks (Diplomancy and Demoralize). Other then that, it's a pretty worthless class, though I've seen some good homebrew variants around.

Also note that that from a metagame perspective you don't want a buff that's always on. Your DM can just adjust the difficulty of every encounter upwards. (This is an issue with Divine Metamagic as well). You want a variety of different buffs that you can activate when you need them. So if you want to play a buff class, play a spellcaster.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-30, 08:31 AM
RagnaroksChosen is correct about the Dragon Lord from Dragon Magic providing auras. But it also sucks.

Marshal is good for a one level dip to gain your Cha bonus to all Str checks (Trip, Bull Rush, Grapple) or Dex checks (Skills, Initiative) or Cha checks (Diplomancy and Demoralize). Other then that, it's a pretty worthless class, though I've seen some good homebrew variants around.

Also note that that from a metagame perspective you don't want a buff that's always on. Your DM can just adjust the difficulty of every encounter upwards. (This is an issue with Divine Metamagic as well). You want a variety of different buffs that you can activate when you need them. So if you want to play a buff class, play a spellcaster.

Wouldn't that be why you would want a couple of different auras...

Plus these buffs are very very subtle in comparision.

I've noticed from my experiances that gms tend to not worry about stating around marshals or DS's because alot of them don't look at it as a thing they need worry about.

I think a strong argument can be made for a MArshal/DS if you have a decent amount of aruas from both.


edit: also I wish divine mind didn't suck so badly... truly that is a ****ty class.

Person_Man
2010-04-30, 10:12 AM
I think a strong argument can be made for a Marshal/DS if you have a decent amount of aruas from both.

I agree with you in theory. But in reality, the math just doesn't work out well for aura based classes. A dip in something like Marshal can drastically improve one thing at low levels. And a multiclass Marshal/Dragon Shaman works ok at mid levels. But by level 10ish+, your abilities are a joke compared to what your friends can do with spells, psionics, maneuvers, or even feat combos and full BAB. More importantly, if 80% of your class abilities are auras, then you have nothing interesting/useful to do with your actions other then stand close to everyone else in your party.

A good aura based class would need a wide variety of auras (although it should only be able to keep 1 on at any given time), the aura's effectiveness would have to increase well with class levels (maybe Cha bonus + level/4ish, not one or the other), and the class would have to have plenty of non-aura class abilities as well. So far, I have yet to see a non-homebrew class that does that.

Tavar
2010-04-30, 11:30 AM
I've yet to see even homebrew classes really do that. Though Admiral Squish's one seems to do a pretty good job. Full BaB and a better breath weapon, giving it something to do in combat, though more specialized classes will do better there. The Aura's all give some nice extra bonuses to the dragon shaman, and the progression is speed up a bit.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-30, 01:48 PM
I've yet to see even homebrew classes really do that. Though Admiral Squish's one seems to do a pretty good job. Full BaB and a better breath weapon, giving it something to do in combat, though more specialized classes will do better there. The Aura's all give some nice extra bonuses to the dragon shaman, and the progression is speed up a bit.

pre level 4(i think) is kinda boring for a DS, but after that you are pritty much only 1 die behind a DFA. Though out of the box you can use metabreathe feats.

As a person who has played a few DS's I was never bored in combat. My favorite was a human DS, with power attack, combat expertise , and improved trip.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-30, 01:51 PM
Dragon Shaman/Dread Necro/fixed Divine Mind(to make it not suck)?
That gives you a fear aura, DM auras, and DS auras.

marjan
2010-04-30, 02:12 PM
Not really auras, but several stances from White Raven offer bonuses for your allies as long as they are active.

Human Paragon 3
2010-04-30, 03:29 PM
I've recently come around to Marshal. Beefed up with martial study (or manuevers if you're using the homebrew) marshal becomes a great warlord type, even with the poor BAB. His auras make up for that. And when you grant your party a free move action, it can be a thing of beauty. You can even ready the free move action to save people from spells and charges.

Manuevers like vangaurd strike and tactical strike and stances like Iron Gaurd glare make Marshal a little more potent, and with full plate and shield you can even successfully tank with it.

Sir_Chivalry
2010-04-30, 03:54 PM
SHAMELESS SELF-PLUG ALERT!!!!

---> LE blackguards take heart, join the blood war and get AURAS!

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143257

Psionic Dog
2010-04-30, 04:37 PM
edit: also I wish divine mind didn't suck so badly... truly that is a ****ty class.

The Divine Mind may be, ah... suboptimal, yes, as written but if you're considering fixes it's a not a bad place to start.

Since their biggest drawback as a party buffer is the incredibly dinky range of their auras simply doubling the listed range would make them worth reconsidering for most adventuring parties, although in an optimized group more fixing might be required.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-30, 10:21 PM
The Divine Mind may be, ah... suboptimal, yes, as written but if you're considering fixes it's a not a bad place to start.

Since their biggest drawback as a party buffer is the incredibly dinky range of their auras simply doubling the listed range would make them worth reconsidering for most adventuring parties, although in an optimized group more fixing might be required.

interesting so just making it the normal 30 or 60 ft range makes the class viable?

Thurbane
2010-04-30, 10:35 PM
Dragonfire Adept gets free Dragontouched, which in turn makes the Draconic Aura feat somewhat viable. Grab Draconic Aura twice, the Double Draconic Aura at 12th level. Very feat intensive, though...

Purple Dragon Knight and Outcast Champion both have aura (or aura-like) abilities.

Draz74
2010-05-01, 12:20 AM
Dragonfire Adept gets free Dragontouched, which in turn makes the Draconic Aura feat somewhat viable. Grab Draconic Aura twice, the Double Draconic Aura at 12th level. Very feat intensive, though...

Just taking Draconic Aura once, however, is a sweet deal.

JaronK
2010-05-01, 03:20 AM
Warblade and Crusader. Lots of the White Raven maneuvers amd stances are effectively auras (for example, a first level one adds your initiator level to charge damage for all nearby allies).

JaronK

Kantolin
2010-05-01, 03:37 AM
You want a variety of different buffs that you can activate when you need them.

A drawback there is that for example, if you tend to cast 'haste' a lot since it's awesome, then it's exactly as easy for the DM to start expecting haste and preparing encounters with the additional haste-bonuses in mind. It's then actually worse than auras, since then you must cast haste in order to keep up. A DM may not necessarily do this, but a DM may not necessarily do anything about always-on auras either.

This then gets worse if you have superbuffs (Or comboes) that you conserve for important occasions. I mean, the first time you might end up blindsiding your DM, but every important fight after that the DM is actually more likely to be preparing for it than preparing for the piddly +3 that your dragon shaman is putting out.

A DM can counter anything. Always-on bonuses like auras are generally minor to the point where they're less necessarily countered than a whole bunch of not-always-on abilities which are far more nasty.