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View Full Version : What do you think of when you hear "Dragon"?



krossbow
2010-04-29, 07:32 PM
As the topic states, what is it, in your mind, that epitomizes dragons?

One thing my group dislikes somewhat about D&D dragons is that they rely so much on their spellcasting; Dragon Fighting in ways that we view as "draconic" (relying on Breath attacks, melee, and flight, being all about being up close and personal and roasting things with a devastating Breath weapon, possibly with multiple uses for their breath) are essentially nerfing themselves; Effective dragons in D&D function almost like Heavy Duty tank sorcerers, with a heavy emphasis on spells over brawn.

However, i know that Mileage varies, so i'm asking:

Does a dragon to you Scream out an accomplished master of arcane arts, who uses this to Manipulate and control the land?

Does a dragon to you scream out a Vicious brute, who uses his natural strength, flight and breath to Lay waste to those that oppose him?

Does a dragon Scream to you as being almost a Living Aircraft, using flight and range to defeat its foes, ala how the Dragon in Beowulf (movie) fought?


What abilities are most iconic to dragons in your mind?

Roland St. Jude
2010-04-29, 07:36 PM
Two things:

1. A now-deceased magazine that was an integral part of gaming across the decades.
2. This classic. (http://classicdndinkc.net/elmore%20-%20red%20dragon%20-%20basic.jpg)

But to answer your question, dragons to me are immensely powerful and of unknown power and unpredictable temperment. Sometimes they arrogantly just claw, crush, and breathe fire. Sometimes they cast spells to bedevil and demoralizes. Sure, there are trends among dragons of similar colors, but even if players have heard those generalizations, they'd be foolish to count on them.

gibbo88
2010-04-29, 07:38 PM
When I think of a dragon's tactics I generally think of a couple of strafing runs to clear out some of the weaker opponents and then wading into melee to take out any remaining opposition. But then when I think of Dragons they generally can't cast spells like those in DnD can. If I added that, maybe a bit of buffing before going into the fight, but I don't imagine them standing in the middle of a fight and casting ray spells or anything like that.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-29, 07:42 PM
Does a dragon to you scream out a Vicious brute, who uses his natural strength, flight and breath to Lay waste to those that oppose him?

Does a dragon Scream to you as being almost a Living Aircraft, using flight and range to defeat its foes, ala how the Dragon in Beowulf (movie) fought?


What abilities are most iconic to dragons in your mind?
These two: well not an aircraft as they aren't best flyers, but close.

I mean, the supernaturals/spell-likes that the dragon gets fit like destroy water, and make illusions fit the theme, but not the spellcasting.
That seems tacked on to make them stronger.

Asheram
2010-04-29, 07:46 PM
When I think of dragon I tend to forget that they can even use magic. What I see in my mind when I think of a dragon is a giant winged, highly intelligent, reptilian that can breathe fire.

For dragon tactics, I'd say that they're like any other giant monster, using their breathweapon to create panic and take care of the ones that it deems important first, using its magic as a backup should something go wrong.

Shalist
2010-04-29, 07:48 PM
This definitely bears mentioning:

"My Dragon (http://www.choiceofgames.com/dragon/)"

Mind you, there are a lot of different distinct personalities among the draconic types--ranging from aloof golds, power-trippy reds, prankster coppers, and so on. Its actually kinda a pet peeve of mine how shallow and homogeneous dragons are in most fantasy novels, never displaying any intelligence or personality, and doing little beyond sleeping on a hoard while waiting for adventurers to slay them. And in actual play, they're not even that much--just another sack of treasure and HP.

Mugshots of the 10 classic wyrms from when they're a bit older:

Black http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww30/123456laughs/Blackmug.jpg Blue http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww30/123456laughs/Bluemug.jpg
Green http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww30/123456laughs/Greenmug.jpg
Red http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww30/123456laughs/Redmug.jpg White http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww30/123456laughs/Whitemug.jpg
Brass http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww30/123456laughs/Brassmug.jpg Bronze http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww30/123456laughs/Bronzemug.jpg
Copper http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww30/123456laughs/Coppermug.jpg
Gold http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww30/123456laughs/Goldmug.jpg Silver http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww30/123456laughs/Silvermug.jpg


That being said...I like to think of dragons as a force of nature. Awesome power on all fronts, cunning and wisdom beyond what most mortals are capable, and absolutely unstoppable in their given territory.

Part of the reason they rely more on sorcery in 3.5 is, imho, because magic is overpowered in 3.5, such that the only way to compete with magic, is more magic, regardless of how powerful you'd be otherwise, so that does spoil the image a bit.

BobVosh
2010-04-29, 07:51 PM
One thing I have always wondered about dragons is why they don't get swallow whole. Anyway for dragons I always had the big strong brute, that gains incredible magic and size when older. The younger ones rely on physical prowess where the elder ones can rip you apart in several ways.

krossbow
2010-04-29, 07:54 PM
Part of the reason they rely more on sorcery in 3.5 is, imho, because magic is overpowered in 3.5, such that the only way to compete with magic, is more magic, regardless of how powerful you'd be otherwise, so that does spoil the image a bit.


Well, its built into the fluff a bit as well; the inherent explanation for sorcerers is draconic blood, implying dragons to be a highly sorcerous group of beings.

Optimystik
2010-04-29, 08:11 PM
I consider them to be overgrown, narrow-minded and arrogant lizards that cloak their gluttony, greed and vanity behind a veneer of culture and intellect. They're more than willing to discard those higher pursuits when their stomachs or sadism get the better of them.

They all remind me of Hannibal Lecter, even the so-called "good" ones - manners and refinement struggling and failing to hold in base and ravenous urges.

I much prefer outsiders - say what you like about fiends, at least you know where you stand with them. Undead too.

lsfreak
2010-04-29, 08:19 PM
For me, dragons tend to be extremely intelligent, unaligned beings. Some may be good, some may be bad. None of this color-coded nonsense; I tend to ignore the metallic dragons outright. Capable of magic, and smart, but they also know their power, and tend to prefer just tearing things to shreds. In addition, they tend to not really care about the goings-on in the world, rather looking at the grander scheme of things. People are concerned about things like wars and conquests; such small-scale things tempt only the lowliest of dragons.

Granted, my view of dragons may have been tainted by my primary pre-D&D exposure to them being the Aspects from Warcraft, and Trag'Oul from Diablo.

Zeta Kai
2010-04-29, 08:31 PM
It's a big lizard.
It breathes fire.
It terrorizes locals.
It hordes gold.
It gets killed by a hero.

Everything else is a houserule.

The Tygre
2010-04-29, 08:38 PM
1.) The closest thing to gods on the material plane.

2.) The best magazine I ever subscribed to period.

3.) My childhood.

Asbestos
2010-04-29, 08:39 PM
Two things:

1. A now-deceased magazine that was an integral part of gaming across the decades.

It still exists, though only in an online format and a 1/year hard copy compilation.

Tinydwarfman
2010-04-29, 08:42 PM
Dragons do not use magic, they are magic. Magic runs through their blood, and empowers them. They may create magical effects, but they are never structured. They simply will something to happen, it does. Their magic is internal though, and far more often than not, their use of magic will be to facilitate the use of their claws or other physical means to rip people to shreds.

In rules terms, I feel draconic magic cannot be represented well in D&D, as the magic system is too structured. They should be using some kind of word/noun system, like syntactic magic, or something akin to the Ars Magica system.

OracleofWuffing
2010-04-29, 08:45 PM
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/1504/pdtl906025.jpg

Also, I think of that one time a Wyvern and a series of unfortunate rolls left a sorceror at about nine maximum HP. Sure, it's not a standard dragon strategy, but that's the kind of situation a dragon would drag you in on, and laugh.

Siosilvar
2010-04-29, 08:54 PM
Does a dragon to you Scream out an accomplished master of arcane arts, who uses this to Manipulate and control the land?

Does a dragon to you scream out a Vicious brute, who uses his natural strength, flight and breath to Lay waste to those that oppose him?

Does a dragon Scream to you as being almost a Living Aircraft, using flight and range to defeat its foes, ala how the Dragon in Beowulf (movie) fought?

#1: Not really the arcane arts so much as being the embodiment of raw arcane energy.

#2 and 3: Dragons are the bombers of the campaign world. Relatively easy to outmaneuver, but capable of blowing up whatever they want to.

Eldariel
2010-04-29, 08:59 PM
Dragon screams to me "perfection"; a mighty, firebreathing (yeah, the only breath weapon is fire), magic-incarnate creature of unmeasurable cunning and insight, with presence so persuasive that lesser creatures cower at its very existence (and yes, just about everything short of gods and elder outsiders is "lesser").

In combat, if it actually chooses to engage itself (and believe you me, the battles will always happen on its terms), it wields an immaculate combination of fire, magic and might able to take on a dozen creatures of broadly equivalent power by virtue of the combination of its abilities giving it the abilities of a group of lesser creatures.

Godskook
2010-04-29, 09:00 PM
For good dragons: Ever see Dragonheart? That!

cattoy
2010-04-29, 09:00 PM
depends entirely on context.

Based on game system and who's running it, it usually boils down to Fight, Run or Talk.

Swooper
2010-04-29, 09:02 PM
I'd just like to throw in the fact that magic-less dragons exist in D&D - look at the Xorvintaal template in MM5. It's pretty nifty. :smallsmile:

Forever Curious
2010-04-29, 09:05 PM
Not this...
http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/851/dddino.jpg

ApeofLight
2010-04-29, 09:08 PM
Dragon to me brings several things. First off there usually flying creatures, or at least have wings. There are some ground dragons but there rare among dragons. Two, lizard like, end of story. Three, breath weapon of some sort. Four, half are just somewhat sentient and the other half are naturally gifted to cast awesome spells.

Optimystik
2010-04-29, 09:13 PM
In addition, they tend to not really care about the goings-on in the world, rather looking at the grander scheme of things. People are concerned about things like wars and conquests; such small-scale things tempt only the lowliest of dragons.

How I wish that were true, but D&D says otherwise. Some truly "lofty" examples from Draconomicon:

- Iyriddelmirev, Very Old Black - spends her days running a gang of human thieves in the sewer of a city.

- Lothaenorixius, Great Wyrm Blue - after an unsuccessful attempt on his life by some adventurers, he took over the salt mine belonging to the merchants that hired them, and now runs it himself. He's now a glorified accountant/slaver, trying to get the maximum monetary output from his mine with the minimum amount of investment, using undead workers where he can but needing some human employees, both for their greater speed and to bring the salt to market for sale.

- Drumduruhullwix, Very Old Copper - "Puns are his meat and drink"; "most creatures just give up on talking to him after a matter of minutes, which leaves him in fits of laughter over what he considers success."

Sheeredni-vaktar, Wyrm Gold - She has no tolerance for "poor manners, bad grooming, offensive language, alcohol use, or even sexual promiscuity." She does not take issue with violence, however, and is quick to react violently to those who break the taboos above, even "just" swatting them with her tail for nonlethal damage and scolding them.

...and so on. Very dignified creatures, concerned with only the highest pursuits, indeed.


Granted, my view of dragons may have been tainted by my primary pre-D&D exposure to them being the Aspects from Warcraft, and Trag'Oul from Diablo.

Aren't Warcraft's Flights color-coded too? More by function than alignment (blues control magic, greens dreaming, bronze time etc.), but there is a little morality there too (the Black Dragonflight is all evil for instance.)

krossbow
2010-04-29, 09:34 PM
I have to admit, When it comes to dragons, magic doesn't really enter into how I've ever thought of them. A dragon's main trump card has always been its breath attack, which is complimented by the ability to fly and strafe things.

Just "embodiment of magic" doesn't really jive with what is essentially a large lizard; I'd always pictured embodiments of energy/magic to look more akin to something like a Starcraft archon or an angel.

I figure, if its a being of pure energy, why would it be embodied in so much flesh and blood?


^Also, I love the hannibal lecture example listed above. It seems to fit with alot of their plans, and it seems somewhat like how smaug acted in the hobbit-- Appearing cordial but really caring about nothing but base desires and greed.



Aren't Warcraft's Flights color-coded too? More by function than alignment (blues control magic, greens dreaming, bronze time etc.), but there is a little morality there too (the Black Dragonflight is all evil for instance.)

yeah. Wow dragons function more along the lines of energy types/affinities than alignment. The black dragonflight were actually pretty decent beings before their Primary leader/father was corrupted by eldritch abominations. That being said, WoW dragons function alot like forgotten realms gods, in that they're more or less servants of a greater set of entities (Akin to how Gods in forgotten realms serve Ao), and have a tendency to get pretty coldblooded wherein their portfolio is concerned.

Roland St. Jude
2010-04-29, 09:47 PM
It still exists, though only in an online format and a 1/year hard copy compilation.

Rubbish. By which I mean, it's rubbish, not that I disbelieve you. :smallwink:

Asbestos
2010-04-29, 09:55 PM
Rubbish. By which I mean, it's rubbish, not that I disbelieve you. :smallwink:

In that case its been rubbish for quite a while, I find the current product an improvement over the most recent dead tree examples.


As for what I think of when I think 'Dragon', I generally think an extremely powerful and fearsome being but one that is as prone, if not more so, to basic human flaws as people. For example greed, pride, vanity, etc.

The Cat Goddess
2010-04-29, 10:15 PM
Smaug, and even more-so, Glaurung.

lsfreak
2010-04-29, 10:33 PM
How I wish that were true, but D&D says otherwise.
Yea, I tend to ignore that. It doesn't make sense to me. While it's not official D&D canon, it's what I think of when I hear dragon.


Aren't Warcraft's Flights color-coded too? More by function than alignment (blues control magic, greens dreaming, bronze time etc.), but there is a little morality there too (the Black Dragonflight is all evil for instance.)

They match their matriarch/patriarch. While I don't know the actual alignments of them, it tends to be something like red is life/lawful good, green is dreams/nature/chaotic good, blue is magic/chaotic neutral, bronze is time/lawful neutral, and black is earth/destruction/chaotic evil. WC dragons, from what I remember though (been a while since I was up to the lore), are much less set-in-stone than D&D dragons, with most of them actually leaning towards True Neutral, Beyond Alignment, and/or ****ing Insane. The single major exception is Black Dragonflight, thanks to Netharion's corruption/betrayal.

The Tygre
2010-04-29, 10:44 PM
In that case its been rubbish for quite a while, I find the current product an improvement over the most recent dead tree examples.

The last 'dead tree', as you whipper-snappers like to call them, was back in 2007. Kobold Quarterly carries that torch now, thank you very much. I do not question the validity of Wizards' Dragon. On the contrary, I love some of the content they deliver, and I'm thankful that there's a yearly annual for those of us who prefer our pen and ink ways. But unless I can touch it, unless I can feel it, hear its pages flipping, smell it, go so far as to taste it if I want to, it isn't Dragon magazine. It's just Dragon. Now get off to your moon-pies and penny-whistles. :smallbiggrin:

Irreverent Fool
2010-04-29, 11:41 PM
Dragon Magazine ceased to exist when it ceased to be a magazine. Give me paper in my hands, physical things I may collect and let stand as testament to my nerditude. (And things I can spread over an actual desktop and look over without having to switch between windows.)

I like the 3.5 Xorvintaal idea presented in MM5 and mentioned above. It paints dragons as creatures who have minds and goals that are all but unfathomable to the mortal races. They are seen as creatures that cover their base desires and pride with thin social veneers, but that is only because the pursuit of those desires is the only thing with which the mortals can identify.

I think of some great beast, so rarely seen as to be mythical to the most recent generations, manipulating kingdoms, nations, continents as nothing more than pawns. The confirmed sighting of one dragon sends waves of fear rippling through every civilization. When one rises from its lair to interact with the lesser world, empires fall to ruin, secrets are lost, and dark ages begin.

Sadly, it rarely works out like that in D&D. Still, any time one mentions 'dragon' around my players, they go a little pale.

obnoxious
sig

The Tygre
2010-04-29, 11:49 PM
How I wish that were true, but D&D says otherwise. Some truly "lofty" examples from Draconomicon:

...and so on. Very dignified creatures, concerned with only the highest pursuits, indeed.

Hey, immortals get bored too. It can't all be 'Find the Cure for the Anthraxus Plague' or 'Rearrange the stars to make myself god via epic truenaming'. Sometimes, it's just fun to watch the puppets dance. And I don't recall 'powerful' ever meaning 'devoid of personality'. Where do you think Half-Dragons come from, after all? :smallamused:

Optimystik
2010-04-29, 11:57 PM
Dragon Magazine ceased to exist when it ceased to be a magazine.

My laptop and I will enjoy all the "not-magazines" that you and Tygre fail to read. :smallwink:

I don't see the big hang-up over paper anyway. As long as the info gets into our heads, does it really matter how?


Hey, immortals get bored too. It can't all be 'Find the Cure for the Anthraxus Plague' or 'Rearrange the stars to make myself god via epic truenaming'. Sometimes, it's just fun to watch the puppets dance. And I don't recall 'powerful' ever meaning 'devoid of personality'. Where do you think Half-Dragons come from, after all? :smallamused:

There's a difference between "personality" and just plain being petty.

I mean, seriously. A CR25 dragon running a salt mine? Worrying about profit margins? I wish I could make this stuff up, I really do. But the worst part isn't that they sat down and statted out this waste of oxygen, it's that I could easily picture a CR25 dragon setting out to do something so utterly banal. To paraphrase Vaarsuvius; "I find it entirely in keeping with what I know of them."

The Tygre
2010-04-30, 12:23 AM
There's a difference between "personality" and just plain being petty.

I mean, seriously. A CR25 dragon running a salt mine? Worrying about profit margins? I wish I could make this stuff up, I really do. But the worst part isn't that they sat down and statted out this waste of oxygen, it's that I could easily picture a CR25 dragon setting out to do something so utterly banal. To paraphrase Vaarsuvius; "I find it entirely in keeping with what I know of them."

I think it's a matter of reverse engineering. Fluff was made around the crunch, and the crunch suffers for it. Truth is you're on the money; I could see a younger dragon, or even an adult running a salt mine or a thieve's guild, but a great wyrm? They don't run salt mines, they run salt, period. They don't run a thieve's guild, they run the international mafia.

Who knows; maybe the dragons wrote their own fluff and are just being modest? :smallwink:

Optimystik
2010-04-30, 12:35 AM
I could overlook it as an error, except they have sample dragons at every variety and age category in that book, so there's already an Adult and Young Adult Blue in the same chapter as he is. I limited my brief scan for banality to the older ones (Mature Adult+) for precisely the reason you described.

I just find D&D dragons to be on average as boring and childish and disappointing as D&D deities, for precisely the same reasons. With great power comes great ennui it seems.

The Tygre
2010-04-30, 01:25 AM
I just find D&D dragons to be on average as boring and childish and disappointing as D&D deities, for precisely the same reasons. With great power comes great ennui it seems.

Aye, I can see your angle. But I often see it in reverse; dragons, chaos incarnate, spawn of Tiamat the Primordial deep, unstoppable engines of destruction and might, paragon of all the beasts of the earth and sky and sea. What man can stand against them? What god can aspire to the energy in their veins, the sheer terror and awe they garner at a mere shadow's passing? Brood of monsters such as Typhon and Dahaka, drawing civilization ever closer back to the savage cradle of prehistory.

Then I remember that this is D&D, and that the dragons can talk. And they all have the personalities of jackdaws/Garfield the cat.

Dienekes
2010-04-30, 01:34 AM
Smaug and St. George's dragon. Either an intelligent but uncaring monster or a very powerful animal.

Also Optimystik, Drumduruhullwix sounds awesome, thank you for introducing him to me.

Ormur
2010-04-30, 02:06 AM
Yes, Smaug, but more morally ambiguous so they aren't just monsters.

AslanCross
2010-04-30, 02:22 AM
Dragons are the ultimate monster. They're intelligent, can fly, are physically powerful and have great control over the elements, whether it be through their breath or their magic. This ideal came from before my exposure to D&D.

I strongly dislike their depiction as large pests that terrorize little villages. At least in Smaug's case it was justified--he's pretty much the last dragon alive and has grown complacent. But back during Morgoth's time? The dragons were superweapons.

I think that if they're really as powerful and as intellectually-gifted as they're crunched out to be, they'd better be more than just enormous troglodytes. (Why WOULD you live in a cave anyway if you're that big?)

They should be scholars, warriors, generals, tyrants, and the like--movers and shakers in the world. They might not care about society per se, but they will at the very least use them as servants or even befriend them. They could be benevolent dictators or ruthless conquerors.

I think metallic dragons are awesome, but I really don't like the dragon color-coding. "Always" alignments are great for outsiders, but creatures of flesh and blood? Not so much.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-30, 02:35 AM
My sig carries my view.

Dragons are intelligent magical creatures with centuries of life experience, and a hell of a survival instinct. The level of skill they can possess is staggering, able to easily perform feats that are normally reserved for the most epic character.

Their hubris can undo them, but I generally feel that a creature doesn't survive for a millennium by having an excess of brazen impulsiveness.

Pronounceable
2010-04-30, 05:21 AM
http://www.anskypoker.com/images/bruce-lee-poker.jpg
I'm somewhat surprised this hasn't come up.
...
As for DnD dragons: They're a bunch of overgrown pests. I'd say Lecter comparison doesn't fit, as they aren't usually a tenth as cool. Dracocides should've been invented by now.

For dragons in general: I don't share the dragonfapping that seems to be strangely prevalent in fantasy circles. When they're there, they must be a sort of great obstacle, some terrible foe that has to be vanquished, one that instills nothing but fear and hate. Not some awesome incarnate that's to be gawked at in stupefied wonder and worshipped for being personification of sugar spice and everything nice.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-30, 05:31 AM
http://www.anskypoker.com/images/bruce-lee-poker.jpg
I'm somewhat surprised this hasn't come up.
...
As for DnD dragons: They're a bunch of overgrown pests. I'd say Lecter comparison doesn't fit, as they aren't usually a tenth as cool. Dracocides should've been invented by now.

For dragons in general: I don't share the dragonfapping that seems to be strangely prevalent in fantasy circles. When they're there, they must be a sort of great obstacle, some terrible foe that has to be vanquished, one that instills nothing but fear and hate. Not some awesome incarnate that's to be gawked at in stupefied wonder and worshipped for being personification of sugar spice and everything nice.

Remember: Most dragons, by mid age, have an average intelligence approaching Einstein, by the book, with good abilities. Judging by longevity and intelligence alone, they should be a force to be reckoned with, whether they are benevolent, antagonistic, or anything in between.

Graymayre
2010-04-30, 05:44 AM
When I hear dragon, I hear the forbidden. I see a representation of great power. It is a personification of what it is like to truely be great. The Chromatic dragons tell us that every use of power has a dark side. It would be very easy to abuse the powers given, to become twisted and malformed by the dangerous implications. The metallic dragons speak of a different story. They show that not all roads lead to horrifying changes. With great power comes great responsibility a wise uncle once said. These creatures are a representation that power, regardless of size, should be used by the holder. The holder should not be used by the power.

Fortuna
2010-04-30, 05:45 AM
I think first of what they have become: boring, overused monsters of the week.

I think second of what I remember them as: fearsome beasts capable of laying waste to nations, slain as the conclusion to a glorious hero's quest.

I think third of what I think they should be: intelligent creatures, akin perhaps to the queen and the chessplayer rolled into one, knowing what happens and controlling it even as they bring immense power to bear. A dragon should be a character, a challenge that must be overcome by wit, by charm or by blade even as its slayer marvels at the eldritch beauty and the ancient power of the creature that has been laid low before him. A noble beast, having rules, and knowing when the game is over, being above petty revenge and being able to surrender with grace at the conclusion.

Also, Dragonheart was an awesome movie.

Samb
2010-04-30, 05:54 AM
I'd just like to throw in the fact that magic-less dragons exist in D&D - look at the Xorvintaal template in MM5. It's pretty nifty. :smallsmile:

That is some great advice. Makes for a great quest/mission hook and/or a BBEG.

Dragons are one of the D's in D&D. They represent everything of potency the game has to offer; martial, arcane and even psionics (gem dragon). I personally like dragons in D&D because they are not mindless brutes.

Morty
2010-04-30, 05:55 AM
{Scrubbed}
As far as what dragons are supposed to be - huge, flying, firebreathing lizards that sow terror and destruction once in a while because only an army or great heroes can defeat them. Giving them sentience is acceptable, albeit stretching it, and spellcasting dragons are a big No. It's already flying, nigh-invunerable and breathes fire, why give it intelligence and magic powers? It's also a good idea for dragons to be extinct and exist only in myths, but that depends on the setting.

Saph
2010-04-30, 05:57 AM
I'm with Eldariel here. I see dragons as the ultimate D&D monsters, with a vast array of powers and the age and experience to use them all to maximum effect. They're intended to be scary and intimidating, and I generally make sure they are.

Plus, they're just cool. Draconomicon's one of my favourite books for that reason - I love the huge variety of dragon personalities and all the details about their anatomy and outlook on the world.

Emmerask
2010-04-30, 05:57 AM
a mix of 1) and 2)
and of course:

http://www.o-love.net/realms/covers_large/pic_cor1.jpg

Dr.Epic
2010-04-30, 06:09 AM
Depends if their scales are shiny. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0207.html)

paddyfool
2010-04-30, 06:13 AM
This gets a bit close to RL religion, but on the matter of base desires, I'd be tempted to homebrew a range of dragons based along the lines of the seven deadly sins. Each one a race of monsters bred by dark gods or fiends to embody one or another of the base instincts of the mortal races. From the classic list, Lust, Avarice, Gluttony, Wrath, and Pride would all have a pretty obvious fit. Envy would be trickier, but doable (perhaps have this the least of the seven in size and power, and apt to overcompensate in its cruelty to "lesser races" on account of its own shortcomings), and Sloth would best be done by emphasising the sense of "callous indifference": a powerful and uncaring monster that relieves its boredom by capturing and playing with prey as a cat with a mouse; and the more intelligent the prey, the better. Possibly you could give them the Latin names to keep them from sounding too silly (Draco Luxuria; Draco Gula etc.), and have them alongside some lesser ancestor in the form of natural dragons that were simply as good or bad as the rest of us (this setting idea is for Fantasy Craft, which has a playable race called "Drakes" which should fit this nicely), but widely feared on account of their warped and monstrous kin...

... but no inherently good dragons. The odd exception among the seven hell-bred kinds might rebel against its bred-in nature, and the natural kind could behave as they like... but the inherently "good" equivalent in this particular setting should be something very different to a dragon.

CapnVan
2010-04-30, 06:21 AM
Wormy.
Or, if you prefer, "Woimy".

Runestar
2010-04-30, 07:00 AM
I can envision the dragon as some sort of gish, using its spellcasting to augment its already impressive melee capabilities. After all, its damage spells almost always pale in comparison to what it could do with a full attack+power attack. Load up a dragon with swift/immediate action spells and it becomes even more formidable in combat.

For example, things get ridiculous with an admixtured breath weapon (a great wyrm red does 48d10 fire damage!). Bite of the werebear is just nasty. Even lower lv spells such as scintillating scales can give ray-mages fits.

Complete mage gave it arcane spellsurge. Now it can arcane fusion as a free action in addition to full-attacking. :smallsigh:

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-30, 07:06 AM
I can envision the dragon as some sort of gish, using its spellcasting to augment its already impressive melee capabilities. After all, its damage spells almost always pale in comparison to what it could do with a full attack+power attack. Load up a dragon with swift/immediate action spells and it becomes even more formidable in combat.

For example, things get ridiculous with an admixtured breath weapon (a great wyrm red does 48d10 fire damage!). Bite of the werebear is just nasty. Even lower lv spells such as scintillating scales can give ray-mages fits.

Complete mage gave it arcane spellsurge. Now it can arcane fusion as a free action in addition to full-attacking. :smallsigh:

Ray Deflection
Scintillating Scales
Death Ward
True Seeing
Arcane Sight
Effulgent Epuration
Wraithstrike
Righteous Might (buffs reach, damage, AND breath weapon size)
Dimensional Lock (Awesome Lair Buff)
Control Winds
Superior Invisibility
Stormrage

There are more, those strike me as particularly fun for gishy dragons.

Samb
2010-04-30, 07:06 AM
The first thing is definetly the annoyance at the dragon fanboyism so prevalent in gaming nowadays, especially among WoTC designers, whose recipe for making everything better for the last few years has been "moar dragons".:smallsigh:

{Scrubbed}

Skaven
2010-04-30, 07:07 AM
Two things:

1. A now-deceased magazine that was an integral part of gaming across the decades.

Me too.

I bought that magazine for so many years, from AD&D - 3.5. I miss it.

Zen Master
2010-04-30, 07:08 AM
I think: Hopefully it's an inn, or a ship, or some such. I really hope the DM doesn't degrade dragons to something you can actually use in real play.

They are like gods in that regard - you know they exist, they are powerful beyond measure, and should you meet one, your doom is assured.

Only people who really don't like dragons should ever use them.

Yora
2010-04-30, 07:15 AM
I like dragons as very supernatural beings. Not quite spirits or divine, but definately much more than common creatures. They take the role of physical demi-gods. Many of them live in locations inaccesible to most people, but some decide that they want to rule humanoid nations, and then they just do it. :smallbiggrin:

Kobold-Bard
2010-04-30, 07:16 AM
They are the ultimate foe, able to do everything you can ad more. And they've had hundreds of years to master them all.

I also think of prestige. Everything to do with dragons is a symbol of superiority. Dragonhide armour, Dragon mounts etc.

I also think of the randiest creatures in existence. They can breed with everything. Seriously, everything :smalltongue:

Yora
2010-04-30, 07:18 AM
But they are not humans: Just because they can, doesn't mean they have to. :smallbiggrin:

Weimann
2010-04-30, 07:18 AM
Breath weapon. In fact, narrower: fire breath. To me, a dragon need not be big or particularly intelligent; in fact, I tend to imagine them animalian and savage, and they breath fire.

Katla from the swedish children's book the Brothers Lionheart is a quintessential dragon to me. She lives in her cave, and when called out she coes and wrecks havoc all around. She's a big, mean lizard who happens to have a flame thrower in her nose.

Dragons CAN be sentient, spell casting savants or noble warriors, but that's a refinement, not a prerequisite. The main thing is the fire.

Kobold-Bard
2010-04-30, 07:20 AM
But they are not humans: Just because they can, doesn't mean they have to. :smallbiggrin:

They don't have to, but they still do :smalltongue: Just like Stephen Fry.

SlyGuyMcFly
2010-04-30, 07:33 AM
Dragons? Dragons are power.

A Dragon is ultimate expression of might. A great beast of enourmous strength and terrifying resilience. A juggernaught of flesh and scale could tear and bite and incinerate anything that would oppose it. But it doesn't have to.

Because a Dragon is magic given form. It casts magic as other creatures breath. A Dragon is not neither amazed nor intimidated by the arcane, for it contains all the mystery of eating and ****ting. A Dragon could make itself ten times stronger and chain it's foes in shackles of thought and summon a loyal army to its side. But it doesn't need to.

Because a Dragon is a great mind. It's cunning knows no bounds, it's will is unshakeable and kings and emperors bow in it's presence. It remembers times before other races even came to be, and the legends of it's kind go a hundredfold times further into history. A Dragon schemes webs with a thousand times a thousand threads and it's sworn enemies bow in obeisance upon speaking to it.

In short, a Dragon is the Ubercharger, the Batman and the Diplomancer in one package. And it knows it. And it loves to prove it.


So yeah, in my opinion Dragons should be but a step removed from the Gods in the overall scheme of things. Movers and shakers, and even young dragons (rare as they are) being outstanding individuals. Some may take interest in mortal affairs, others may prefer to limit their planning to their own kind, other may look beyond that. In any case, anybody's reaction to meeting a Dragon should be 'oh crap', no matter the situation.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-30, 07:59 AM
Dragons? Dragons are power.

A Dragon is ultimate expression of might. A great beast of enourmous strength and terrifying resilience. A juggernaught of flesh and scale could tear and bite and incinerate anything that would oppose it. But it doesn't have to.

Because a Dragon is magic given form. It casts magic as other creatures breath. A Dragon is not neither amazed nor intimidated by the arcane, for it contains all the mystery of eating and ****ting. A Dragon could make itself ten times stronger and chain it's foes in shackles of thought and summon a loyal army to its side. But it doesn't need to.

Because a Dragon is a great mind. It's cunning knows no bounds, it's will is unshakeable and kings and emperors bow in it's presence. It remembers times before other races even came to be, and the legends of it's kind go a hundredfold times further into history. A Dragon schemes webs with a thousand times a thousand threads and it's sworn enemies bow in obeisance upon speaking to it.

In short, a Dragon is the Ubercharger, the Batman and the Diplomancer in one package. And it knows it. And it loves to prove it.


So yeah, in my opinion Dragons should be but a step removed from the Gods in the overall scheme of things. Movers and shakers, and even young dragons (rare as they are) being outstanding individuals. Some may take interest in mortal affairs, others may prefer to limit their planning to their own kind, other may look beyond that. In any case, anybody's reaction to meeting a Dragon should be 'oh crap', no matter the situation.

So you heavily homebrew your dragons?

Fayd
2010-04-30, 08:02 AM
"Dragons can breed with anything, and they do."

Long story, but I ended up having to say that exact line FAR more times than I can count. The original cause was SilverClawShift's campaign journal. Each subsequent time was because of a word-game a friend invented/spread.

Eldan
2010-04-30, 08:04 AM
Well, to be honest the first thing in my mind are two illustrations from The Neverending Story. Which had beautiful illustrations, by the way, at least my edition. The first one is Fuchur, the second one the draconic monstrosity Bastian conjured up for the hero Hynreck to defeat. Can't find them online, but I'll see if I can scan them at home.


Actually, for just about every given monster, from Unicorns to Djinn, the first thing coming up in my mind is the Neverending Story, I've read that book so many times as a kid.


... I now have a sudden desire to homebrew Ygramul. And re-read the book.

Optimystik
2010-04-30, 08:08 AM
So you heavily homebrew your dragons?

You pretty much have to, or else they're overgrown lizards filled with phat lewtz. :smalltongue:

I don't blame him for being in denial though.

Eldan
2010-04-30, 08:15 AM
Really? I don't think so. If you remove them from the concept of challenge rating and operate on the assumption that in any given world, most humanoids will be levels 1-5, dragons are outright terrifying even at low levels. They do have the intelligence and skills to be devious and cunning, the physical strength to annihilate armies if they want to and the charisma to make awe-inspiring leaders, should they want to.

Really, though: when dragons show up in my worlds, they come in two categories: those who care about lesser creatures and those who don't.

If they do, they are rulers. A given dragon of older age can pretty much effortlessly make himself god-emperor.

If they don't care about humans, they tend to be mysterious and reclusive, contemplating the secrets of the world like they are meant to.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-30, 08:28 AM
You pretty much have to, or else they're overgrown lizards filled with phat lewtz. :smalltongue:

I don't blame him for being in denial though.

You can optimize them to be formidable challenges without giving them the ability to bend any that gaze upon them to their will, and cleave the heavens in 'twain with their farts.

In short, one does not need homebrew to make dragons a credible threat.

Pronounceable
2010-04-30, 08:28 AM
{Scrubbed}
o rly? We'd better pack our bags then.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-30, 08:32 AM
o rly? We'd better pack our bags then.

Well, in fairness, it's not the most rational argument to talk about the writers and players of a game about Dungeons and Dragons, and criticize them for being fond of dragons...

It's kinda like a guy running into a NASCAR convention, yelling that stock car racing sucks, and that all the people who are fans of it irritate him.

balistafreak
2010-04-30, 08:45 AM
I think Shadowrun had it right with dragons. Their background fluff has a dragon becoming a President, and a big-shot at that, who fakes his own assassination to make his opponents overextend, so he has an excuse to completely wipe them out later. Somewhere in there there are a hojillion secret plots. Without the books right in front of me, I couldn't tell you what they were, because they're that freaking complex. However, the impression I got was pretty clear; don't ever cross a dragon.

In game terms, they're preposterous. Sure, due to Shadowrun's relatively lethal combat system, if you manage to put a rocket in its face it will die. (Usually. Some dragons might need a dozen, and some dragons might make hitting them with rockets a very difficult endeavour.) But within the very game rules is a system for dragons to literally not die when they should and come back to get you when you least expect, via burning of Edge. It's ridiculous, and makes you scared of them regardless of their stats. Because no matter how "completely" you defeated them, they will be back.

Yeah, don't mess with a dragon.

Mastikator
2010-04-30, 09:25 AM
I prefer E6 (or the equivalent thereof) games, so dragons are for all intent and purpose gods. Also they are extremely rare, I tend to homebrew that they age at 1/10th of normal rate, and change the color-coding concept, make it so there's tops 5 dragons around, and most of those are still pretty young (maybe 500 years or so).

Starbuck_II
2010-04-30, 09:33 AM
Because a Dragon is a great mind. It's cunning knows no bounds, it's will is unshakeable and kings and emperors bow in it's presence. It remembers times before other races even came to be, and the legends of it's kind go a hundredfold times further into history. A Dragon schemes webs with a thousand times a thousand threads and it's sworn enemies bow in obeisance upon speaking to it.

So yeah, in my opinion Dragons should be but a step removed from the Gods in the overall scheme of things. Movers and shakers, and even young dragons (rare as they are) being outstanding individuals. Some may take interest in mortal affairs, others may prefer to limit their planning to their own kind, other may look beyond that. In any case, anybody's reaction to meeting a Dragon should be 'oh crap', no matter the situation.

Wait, what about white dragons? The dumb ones.

Samb
2010-04-30, 09:42 AM
{Scrubbed}

In case people think I just cursed Morty with flesh eating bacteria, I simply said people should not come to a fan site and insult the material. The red "scrubbed" makes it look a lot worse IMO.

Kobold-Bard
2010-04-30, 09:43 AM
Wait, what about white dragons? The dumb ones.

You wouldn't be scared by a White? They're feral and vicious. Most Dragons can be bribed, Whites will chase until you're eaten or they're dead.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-30, 09:45 AM
You wouldn't be scared by a White? They're feral and vicious. Most Dragons can be bribed, Whites will chase until you're eaten or they're dead.

I fear a white dragon same as a lion. I don't respect them as they don't show respect. Respect must be earned.

Kobold-Bard
2010-04-30, 09:48 AM
I fear a white dragon same as a lion. I don't respect them as they don't show respect. Respect must be earned.

Meh I can accept that. I don't like white's either (bugger ate the awesome Cleric in the second D&D film).

Thalnawr
2010-04-30, 10:01 AM
Here's what I think of!
http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/photos/uncategorized/2008/11/09/trogdor3.jpg
A thread about dragons, and we haven't seen a picture of Trogdor yet?

hamishspence
2010-04-30, 10:03 AM
I fear a white dragon same as a lion. I don't respect them as they don't show respect. Respect must be earned.

4E white dragons are a bit smarter than 3E ones. Even the youngest are about as bright as the average human.

Ossian
2010-04-30, 10:58 AM
Guys in swords Vs F-16s...

Well, in a nutshell in my campaigns high powered ranged magic is hard to come by, and if you go with a sharp iron rod to attack a T-Rex with the IQ of an old sage and the ferocity of all the berserkers that ever lived, it's not gonna end well. I would make an exception for jedi type of fighters, with insta-slicing swords and the ability to jump and tumble 15 meters in any direction (and even then the PC is really like a tennis ball serving itself to the the Dragon that was waiting to smash into the nearest wall)

The thus tend to be of scary dimensions (good luck hitting them anywhere above the ankle) and really really scary, with a tendency to stomp everything to dust. Spells are just icing on the cake.

Drakyn
2010-04-30, 10:59 AM
With D&D dragons at least, I think of some serious disconnects between their descriptions and how they end up being used. They live for absurd amounts of time, and most of them as adults are much smarter than humans (going to crazy heights for some of the powerful ones), but they:
(A) Are seldom the end-all-be-all big bads of any adventures they end up in, playing second fiddle or mega-goon to someone smaller and humanoider. I think you're a lot more likely to fight an undead, fiend, or humanoid as a final boss than a dragon most times. They're certainly iconic (what's that second D stand for again?), but that just means you're more likely to fight them as a special event in their own right (who doesn't love taking down a dragon?). Since it's unlikely that every damned quest you go on is going to have a dragon behind it, a decent wad of these fights are going to be disconnected from the plot, which slants them towards "big powerful lizards we go kill and loot for the gloryulz" and away from being significant independant forces.
(B) Usually don't act as cleverly as they should. Sure, vanity is a decent and understandable trait for anything that gets STRONGER as it moves into old age and takes a thousand+ years to do so, but you can only take it so far before you ask exactly why this thing has 18+ intelligence and wisdom.

Past that, I think there's some fun potential there. You can have a dragon that's helping run half the politics on a continent, openly or covertly, or a dragon that's spent the last two hundred years fortifying, delving, and excavating its lair into a mountain-hollowed ultimate dungeon without ever once seeing or wanting to see another sentient creature, and they both work completely fine. Subtle or bullheaded, nice or nasty, solitary or gregarious whatever. Just so long as they're forces in their own right, and they act like something with their breadth of experience and mental capabilities should.

TL;DR: If they must be random encounters, give them purposes beyond "sit in cave, amass treasure." Better yet, don't let them be.

Optimystik
2010-04-30, 12:02 PM
You can optimize them to be formidable challenges without giving them the ability to bend any that gaze upon them to their will, and cleave the heavens in 'twain with their farts.

In short, one does not need homebrew to make dragons a credible threat.

The trouble is that if both sides optimize (and are CR-appropriate for each other,) the dragon is still hampered by (a) poor spellcasting, (b) being bigger than the broad side of a barn, and (c) having types and subtypes that a savvy PC can easily screw with. (e.g. Hide From Dragons, Knowledge Devotion, various element boosters etc.) Human Wizardy Mcwizardington and his band of misfits don't have any of these weaknesses.

It seems to me that the best way for a dragon to mitigate these is to not be a dragon - that is, change into something else for the fight scene.

Saph
2010-04-30, 12:07 PM
It seems to me that the best way for a dragon to mitigate these is to not be a dragon - that is, change into something else for the fight scene.

That's pretty much the exact worst way to play a dragon. Effective dragons are super-gishes, using spells to augment their already formidable attack power. Changing into something else negates one of their main strengths.

I've DMed a lot of games, and quite consistently, one of the most common causes of PC deaths are dragon fights. I think in our Red Hand of Doom campaign somewhere around one-half of the PC fatalities were at the claws of dragons.

Optimystik
2010-04-30, 12:11 PM
Which is why I emphasized optimization on both sides - the PCs have more access to dragon-hate, than the dragon has access to "every-other-creature-type-and-class" hate.*

*Assuming all sources allowed of course.

Ozymandias9
2010-04-30, 12:19 PM
At the OP:
I see dragons as absurdly intellegent, absurdly powerful, absurdly old, and, most importantly, not social creatures.

These are solitary creatures and, as such, shouldn't be aiming for the same social goals that we ascribe to people or even wolves. Their interest in the running sentient societies should be limited to charitable acts or the equivalent of "Dance Monkeys! Dance!" depending on alignment.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-30, 12:21 PM
The trouble is that if both sides optimize (and are CR-appropriate for each other,) the dragon is still hampered by (a) poor spellcasting, (b) being bigger than the broad side of a barn, and (c) having types and subtypes that a savvy PC can easily screw with. (e.g. Hide From Dragons, Knowledge Devotion, various element boosters etc.) Human Wizardy Mcwizardington and his band of misfits don't have any of these weaknesses.

It seems to me that the best way for a dragon to mitigate these is to not be a dragon - that is, change into something else for the fight scene.

You say that, but dragons have an edge too. Really, the only disadvantage dragons get? Action economy. Dragons have home field advantage, can get insanely high skill checks, can make themselves quite hard to hit (big size vs scintillating scales).

Wizardy McWizardarton has his own disadvantages. Inferior saves, inferior AC, inferior HP. Lack of knowledge about the lair. I've tested this out. A well built dragon is at a disadvantage against well built PC's, yes. But it's not bad like that. Spellcasting with dragons isn't used the same way wizards use it. You use it closer to cleric. And dragons can be very dangerous.

Yes, I've heard this argument. I decided to test it. There's a link at the bottom for the test in progress. So far, it's fought a party of 5 to a standstill, and forced a PC retreat. It's made PC kills, though they were reversed, and I didn't build it to be disgustingly bad. Just optimized.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-30, 12:25 PM
Yes, I've heard this argument. I decided to test it. There's a link at the bottom for the test in progress. So far, it's fought a party of 5 to a standstill, and forced a PC retreat. It's made PC kills, though they were reversed, and I didn't build it to be disgustingly bad. Just optimized.

That depends on meaning of word optimized. How much houserules in plave as well.

Saph
2010-04-30, 12:27 PM
Yes, I've heard this argument. I decided to test it. There's a link at the bottom for the test in progress. So far, it's fought a party of 5 to a standstill, and forced a PC retreat. It's made PC kills, though they were reversed, and I didn't build it to be disgustingly bad. Just optimized.

*nods* Dragons are pretty much designed as the top end of the monster scale in D&D. There are individual under-CRed monsters that are more dangerous, but as a whole, dragons top the list.

In pretty much every campaign I've played in or run, the dragon encounters have been among the most deadly. In the campaign I'm playing in right now, I've run a couple of random encounters, and the one PC death was due to . . . dragons. :P

JGoldenberg
2010-04-30, 12:32 PM
What? No Wheel of Time References yet?

Rand al'Thor of course.

That and big ass magic flying lizards that are colour coded for our convenience.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-30, 12:32 PM
That depends on meaning of word optimized. How much houserules in plave as well.

The houserules that are in place in this particular one are available for viewing. The PC's are using Shapechange, Time Stop, Disjunction, Superior Invisibility, Summon Monster 9, and the like.

The dragon is using spells like Effulgent Epuration, Wraithstrike, Miracle, and Superior Invisibility, along with other nice effects, such as Guards and Wards, Control Weather, and more.

The PC's are solidly optimized, about as much as the dragon is. The dragon has a lair that is beneficial to good tactics for the creature.

The PC's have told me they constantly feel on death's door. Check the link, check the PC's. Anyone who'd like the dragon sheet is welcome to it, provided they don't share it with the players in the game.

Eldariel
2010-04-30, 12:48 PM
*nods* Dragons are pretty much designed as the top end of the monster scale in D&D. There are individual under-CRed monsters that are more dangerous, but as a whole, dragons top the list.

In pretty much every campaign I've played in or run, the dragon encounters have been among the most deadly. In the campaign I'm playing in right now, I've run a couple of random encounters, and the one PC death was due to . . . dragons. :P

Quite. I also noticed it when doing running tests of Core Party of 4 vs. CR+Lots monsters. A level 1 party optimized for it using proper tactics can beat just about any CR 5 encounter, but CR 5 Dragons they pretty much have no chance against (say Young Black). The Dragon has like three times the HP of most monsters of similar capabilities at the same CR (e.g. Adult Arrowhawk), no weak saves, the extremely powerful ability to Breath Strafe and quite respectable martial prowess too, though that doesn't even matter as the characters can't really fly and the Dragon has no reason to engage them in melee when it can just breath them crispy.

krossbow
2010-04-30, 12:56 PM
The trouble is that if both sides optimize (and are CR-appropriate for each other,) the dragon is still hampered by (a) poor spellcasting, (b) being bigger than the broad side of a barn, and (c) having types and subtypes that a savvy PC can easily screw with. (e.g. Hide From Dragons, Knowledge Devotion, various element boosters etc.) Human Wizardy Mcwizardington and his band of misfits don't have any of these weaknesses.

It seems to me that the best way for a dragon to mitigate these is to not be a dragon - that is, change into something else for the fight scene.

Well, to be fair, if there's not a tier one in the party, the dragon's threat level rises quite abit. If the group isn't able to just decide they're going to pick nothing but anti-dragon spells for the day and is limited to a chosen list of spells, its harder to exploit those achilles heels.

Aotrs Commander
2010-04-30, 02:33 PM
When I think of dragons, I think of 100'-long, winged behemoths, usually intelligent, with a breath weapon.

From a roleplaying/wargaming standpoint, my view of dragons is much more Rolemaster than D&D, in which they really will tear you a new one in short order. (Unless, like Bard at Esgaroth you roll open-ended high...1)

They are enormous. They are ancient. They are powerful. They do not have horns, or lots of spikey protusions, because that would ruin their sleek lines. They are not colour-coded by alignment. Their colouration varies by species, like any creature, but there is nothing to tell you whether a dragon is good or evil save it's actions. A dragon is a master of it's element, breathing a stream of elemental energy with enough power to melt, freeze, shred or simply blast apart stone and steel. A dragon may cast spells. It may shift it's form to better fool the mortals it deals with. It may just prefer to rip you open with a single bored swipe of it's talons.

They are Smarter Than You, regardless of how smart you foolishly think you are, yes even you, Batman Wizard. They are Stronger Than You, regardless of how strong you foolishly think you are, yes even you, Frenzied Berserker. They are Wiser Than You, CoDzilla and they are certainly have more Charisma than you, Diplomancer. (They are...not quicker than you, though.) And this is true because they are also more Arrogant than your entire party, including your players as well as your characters, squared. Because the Dragon does not believe, but knows, at it's heart and soul, it is superior because it is the Dragon, and you are just brief-lived mayflies, offering naught but diversion and irritation to be crushed underfoot. And it has the sheer force of personality to make you beleive it too...

They are patient, and long-lived. They may be deeply interested - for a time - in passing of the world, or they may sleep for a thousand years and let the world pass them by, only to wake and wreck devasation. They are perilous, even those who not outright evil and more benevolent. They are not to be taken lightly. They are not supplementary to the plot, they ARE the plot.

But the one thing, the most important thing of all, that Dragons are is not to be over-used.



In my twenty years of (weekly and bi-weekly) gaming, I have fought against or DM'd about a dozen dragons. And that includes straight-out fights, fights against things people think are dragons (once, a masterful illusion designed to test the calibure of the PCs), negociating with dragons and in at least one occasion, discovering the high-level recurring NPC was a dragon and running like buggery...

The fact that I can remember every occasion speaks for itself. Because they are so rarely encountered, they remain fresh and don't become commonplace. So, when a dragon appears, the PCs know they are in trouble. It's something memorable, and still carries the feeling of "oh crap! It's a freaking dragon!!!" And that, most of all, is the most important thing.



And yes, I homebrew my dragons in D&D2. I've never liked the D&D dragon rules in any edition. The fact they blantently ignore all the creature design rules in 3.5 for no good reason is one point and especially not the fact the are sort of expected to be fought at any CR. You don't fight Liches and demons and level 1, so why on earth would you want to waste a dragon encounter on a wyrmling?


As a final point, if one of the many things the Dragon is, is a ninja, you are Proper F...err...I mean, In A Great Deal Of Bother.

...

Doubly so now that I've seen Naruto...


1'Cos Middle-Earth is Rolemaster, and I've got the sourcebooks to prove it...!

2Though I also homebrew everything ELSE too, so this should hardly be suprising.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-30, 02:48 PM
The fact they blantently ignore all the creature design rules in 3.5 for no good reason is one point and especially not the fact the are sort of expected to be fought at any CR. You don't fight Liches and demons and level 1, so why on earth would you want to waste a dragon encounter on a wyrmling?

Because dragons aren't born 800 years old? The transition from weak creature to strong creature is one of the things about a dragon that ensure a dragon plays to win. It knows what it's like to be pressed. It knows what it's like to be in a dangerous situation.

Dragon young give players a chance to get plot hooks for older dragons (look at OotS and V, for example).

Aotrs Commander
2010-04-30, 03:07 PM
Because dragons aren't born 800 years old? The transition from weak creature to strong creature is one of the things about a dragon that ensure a dragon plays to win. It knows what it's like to be pressed. It knows what it's like to be in a dangerous situation.

Dragon young give players a chance to get plot hooks for older dragons (look at OotS and V, for example).

True, but dragons are the ONLY creatures in D&D to be singled out for that special treatment. (My on homebrew does in fact, have a dragon progression, which allows PCs to be dragons from level one. But at the same time, I have a progression for lots of other creatures - e.g. unicorns.) I don't at all disagree with the idea of a monster progression, but that dragons get special treatment; which encourages over-exposure - my dragon no-no number one. Mostly though, it's the fact they get included in the random encounter tables (like the sample ones in the DMG). In my opinion, you should never EVER have a random encounter with a dragon (or a Lich etc).

And there was still no good reason to violate their own construction rules for dragons and only dragon when there was no need. (Specifically talking about BAB and saves etc, which the MM cheerfully gives them at full progression in blatent disregard to their own Epic rules in the DMG. Because the epic rules are supposed to apply to monsters as well, though WotC seemed to forget their own rules in the MM several times...)

That said, I've generally found that it's usually a bad idea to use anything right out of any of the MMs in a splat-book heavy enviroment. (Which is why on my campaign world, I simply tossed aside the whole bestiary and started from scratch. That and the fact I prefer making my own mythos to D&D's. My start in roleplaying was Rolemaster and that's written as a much-more open-ended system. There isn't much reference to even their own 'official' campaign world in the rules, as you were expected to be making up your own...and the practise has not only stuck, but is preferrable to me!)

BizzaroStormy
2010-04-30, 03:44 PM
Big, intellient, fire-breathing winged lizard which come in red or green.

Runestar
2010-04-30, 05:45 PM
The trouble is that if both sides optimize (and are CR-appropriate for each other,) the dragon is still hampered by (a) poor spellcasting, (b) being bigger than the broad side of a barn, and (c) having types and subtypes that a savvy PC can easily screw with. (e.g. Hide From Dragons, Knowledge Devotion, various element boosters etc.) Human Wizardy Mcwizardington and his band of misfits don't have any of these weaknesses.

It seems to me that the best way for a dragon to mitigate these is to not be a dragon - that is, change into something else for the fight scene.

It kinda works both ways, IMO.

A dragon too can take knowledge devotion and benefit from it greatly (since it has a lot of HD, and consequently, obscenely high knowledge checks), so you are almost always looking at +5 to-hit/damage.

Size typically favours npcs. The dragon will now auto-succeed on any opposed check which incorporates size, such as grapple, disarm, sunder or even trip.

Elemental boosters can be mitigated via the suppress weakness feat, or spells/items granting resistances. Players invariably will prepare cold spells vs a red dragon, so I don't find it metagamey to assume the dragon will have prepared some protections against its more common weaknesses.

Poor spellcasting isn't necessarily an issue if you don't rely on it primarily, merely as buffs to augment their attacks. Caster lv can be improved by taking practiced spellcaster and ring of enduring renewal, making your buffs harder to dispel.

The party's key weaknesses is having less hp than a really buffed dragon can typically full-attack or breathe for (once you factor in metabreath spells). They win in the action economy though, which is something they must really learn to take advantage of if they are to have any hope of victory. :smallsmile:

krossbow
2010-04-30, 06:35 PM
of course, there is one thing that can stop a dragon:

Shivering touch.

Granted, i've never seen a sane DM who allowed that spell unchanged :smalltongue: Not to mention a dragon who's converted his natural armor to touch AC via magic will be a pretty hard target.

AslanCross
2010-04-30, 06:43 PM
of course, there is one thing that can stop a dragon:

Shivering touch.

Granted, i've never seen a sane DM who allowed that spell unchanged :smalltongue: Not to mention a dragon who's converted his natural armor to touch AC via magic will be a pretty hard target.

This is again assuming that a hasted wizard can keep up with a dragon's 150-foot fly speed.

Runestar
2010-04-30, 06:45 PM
of course, there is one thing that can stop a dragon:

Shivering touch.

White dragon then. Sure, they are the weakest of all the dragons, but cr-wise, they are certainly not statistically inferior to other dragons of that cr. Advance them to cr21+ (using the epic dragon advancement rules) and they are certainly on par with reds (well, save for their crummy breath weapon). :smallamused:

Best of all, they stay at gargantuan. :smallbiggrin:

Morth
2010-04-30, 06:51 PM
Anyone say Charizard yet?

Optimystik
2010-04-30, 08:29 PM
White dragon then.

Elemental Substitution. Now my electric touch works by disrupting the neural impulses the White's brain sends to its muscles, and the dexterity loss functions normally.

Though the spell is broken anyway.

Iamyourking
2010-04-30, 09:18 PM
Dragons should ultimetly be the top powers of the mortal world. It doesn't really matter whether they are the movers and shakers or just reclusive sages; but no mortal should be able to match them. I actually like the whole color coded thing, since it gives them a direct tie to the gods that created them. Even the youngest wyrmling knows exactly how many generations it is removed from Tiamat or Bahamut, and it is generally no more than seven or eight.

Note however that I specified mortal world. That CR 27 Great Wyrm Gold may as well be a god to the mortals that scurry around it, but the difference between it and a real planar power, whether it be gods, high angels, Lords of the Nine, or even their subordinates two or three tiers down, is just as big as the difference between a human and a Great Wyrm. What is five millenia to life to a being that has existed for ten billion, mastering a nation to commanding the destinies of entire planes, being venerated by thousands to being worshipped by hundreds of millions. A suitably powerful dragon might be able to serve its god directly or become a subordinate of a powerful outsider but in the long run they are very big fish in a small pond.

Runestar
2010-04-30, 09:29 PM
Elemental Substitution. Now my electric touch works by disrupting the neural impulses the White's brain sends to its muscles, and the dexterity loss functions normally.

Though the spell is broken anyway.

The spell explicitly states it does not work on creatures with the cold subtype. RAW-wise, this would not change even if you changed it to deal damage of another elemental type. You could make it a fire spell and it would still have no impact on a cold-subtype foe. :smallamused:

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-30, 11:20 PM
of course, there is one thing that can stop a dragon:

Shivering touch.

Granted, i've never seen a sane DM who allowed that spell unchanged :smalltongue: Not to mention a dragon who's converted his natural armor to touch AC via magic will be a pretty hard target.

Mobility, Scintillating Scales (Now a wizard with true strike needs a good roll to hit) Superior Invisibility + fog effects to reduce the detection range for the dragon to 5 feet, additional movement modes (burrow, swim, etc)... Spells which provide the cold subtype, spells which provide SR, spells which provide spell immunity... the list goes on.

There are so many ways for a dragon to stop that. Yes, shivering touch is bad, but for what it can do to most other creatures, not dragons.

hamishspence
2010-05-01, 02:28 AM
And there was still no good reason to violate their own construction rules for dragons and only dragon when there was no need. (Specifically talking about BAB and saves etc, which the MM cheerfully gives them at full progression in blatent disregard to their own Epic rules in the DMG. Because the epic rules are supposed to apply to monsters as well, though WotC seemed to forget their own rules in the MM several times...)

Don't the epic save and BAB rules only apply to monsters being played as characters?

The tarrasque- for example. 48 HD. Magical beast. BAB +48, which is what you'd expect.

Also, phaerimm (Faerun aberrations), like dragons, have an advancement table by age. So it's not just dragons.

TheMadLinguist
2010-05-01, 02:33 AM
Dragons are degenerated kobolds IMC.

Of course, kobolds are also greatly reduced from their original power as well. Because dragons are sucking the magic right out of their sorcerous blood.

So, yeah. The sleeping on piles of gold, breathing fire, and massive wingspans are most iconic.

Runestar
2010-05-01, 03:32 AM
Don't the epic save and BAB rules only apply to monsters being played as characters?

More specifically, it applies only to class lvs. Monster HD is clearly exempt from this rule, as can be seem from the all too many monsters with more than 20 HD.

The epic progression rules was designed to balance PCs against other PCs, not PCs against monsters or monsters against other monsters. :smallsmile:

hamishspence
2010-05-01, 03:39 AM
HD aren't completely exempt- in that a monster with a few racial hit dice, and a lot of class levels, starts gaining epic save and BAB once it's effective character level exceeds 20. So they do count toward determining what point epic BAB and saves kicks in.

But generally, when its racial hit dice alone, it doesn't gain them, but advances the normal way.

If you were playing a dragon PC with an ECL of 20, and started taking class levels, those levels would follow the epic rules.

But if you were statting out an "ordinary" dragon, it wouldn't.

Kobold-Bard
2010-05-01, 05:09 AM
Dragons are degenerated kobolds IMC.

Of course, kobolds are also greatly reduced from their original power as well. Because dragons are sucking the magic right out of their sorcerous blood.

So, yeah. The sleeping on piles of gold, breathing fire, and massive wingspans are most iconic.

So Dragons are actually the decendant race from Kobolds, not the other way round?

I like this idea. I may well use this in the game I just started running.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-01, 05:33 AM
So Dragons are actually the decendant race from Kobolds, not the other way round?

I like this idea. I may well use this in the game I just started running.

Note: This is generally the "dragons are dumb" version. Not that that's a bad thing, it just carries a less than reverent treatment of dragons, removes some of the mystical.

Kobold-Bard
2010-05-01, 05:43 AM
Note: This is generally the "dragons are dumb" version. Not that that's a bad thing, it just carries a less than reverent treatment of dragons, removes some of the mystical.

The party is a Succubus Battle Dancer, a Half-fiend Lillend, a construct that thinks its a vestige and a Hydra Bard who's head all have different personalities.

I'm ok with Dragons not being taken super seriously in this game :smallwink:

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-01, 05:58 AM
The party is a Succubus Battle Dancer, a Half-fiend Lillend, a construct that thinks its a vestige and a Hydra Bard who's head all have different personalities.

I'm ok with Dragons not being taken super seriously in this game :smallwink:

Fair nuff.

TheMadLinguist
2010-05-01, 06:21 AM
Note: This is generally the "dragons are dumb" version. Not that that's a bad thing, it just carries a less than reverent treatment of dragons, removes some of the mystical.

Well, they were originally kobold eggs modified to create guardian creatures, infused with the power of the creator's blood. The lust for treasure and other common attributes shared by most dragons are a consequence of the original design; the personality traits being color coded with breath weapons is an artifact of the first few dragonwrights color-coding their own specific variants.

It was just a teensie miscalculation that, once created, the dragons didn't stop growing and gathering more power. By the time the dragonwrights understood what was happening, they were unable to get rid of their creations. The dragons were, at that point, drawing enough magical power to start to hinder the kobold race as a whole and had gained enough intelligence to start taking over.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-01, 07:23 AM
Well, they were originally kobold eggs modified to create guardian creatures, infused with the power of the creator's blood. The lust for treasure and other common attributes shared by most dragons are a consequence of the original design; the personality traits being color coded with breath weapons is an artifact of the first few dragonwrights color-coding their own specific variants.

It was just a teensie miscalculation that, once created, the dragons didn't stop growing and gathering more power. By the time the dragonwrights understood what was happening, they were unable to get rid of their creations. The dragons were, at that point, drawing enough magical power to start to hinder the kobold race as a whole and had gained enough intelligence to start taking over.

So....

A wizard kobold did it?

Closak
2010-05-01, 08:10 AM
When i hear the word "Dragon" I think "Giant flying fire breathing lizard with immense strenght, endurance and spell-casting that also possesess superhuman intelligence and fights using a combination of all of it's assets, they also make great friends if you can get on their good side"


And for some reason every time i hear the words "Dragon" and "Main villain" in the same sentence i think of the whole damn planet exploding.

Scarey Nerd
2010-05-01, 10:26 AM
The word "Dragon" conjures up an image in my head that I'd like to share with you (That hopefully I will see in my group's adventures)...

A huge battlefield, blood running like rivers from the violence of the conflict, with two great armies attacking each other mercilessly. Then, a roar from behind each combatant can be heard, and diving majestically from behind a cloud on either side, a gold and a red dragon soar towards each other, before meeting in midair and beginning a violent battle fought with teeth and claws, fire and jaws.

Whilst I know that D&D dragons are mighty spellcasters, and arcane adepts, I see them as intelligent creatures but still, at heart, animals. I know this is a prejudiced view, and I know they are more civilised than many humanoids, but I can't help but see them as monsters. Fantastic, majestic, amazing monsters, but monsters nonetheless.

Gamerlord
2010-05-01, 12:30 PM
I think of a warrior standing over a dead dragon.


Yeah, I really hate dragons.

Kobold-Bard
2010-05-01, 12:32 PM
I think of a warrior standing over a dead dragon.


Yeah, I really hate dragons.

Do you hate them because they hate you? Or the other way round?

Gamerlord
2010-05-01, 12:35 PM
Do you hate them because they hate you? Or the other way round?

Other way around, I could go on an anti-dragon rant, but that would be off-topic.

lightningcat
2010-05-01, 02:24 PM
Simnueallaphintusi, and his Deck of Many Things.
(It was a NPC crystal dragon a friend of mine ran in his D&D game. Used for advice, but you had to draw from the deck before he would talk to you. He also collected adventures that drew the Imprisonment card.)

Dragons are the epitome of power and/or destruction, and even the "friendly" ones should worry you.

In my game there are three types of dragons.
1) normal D&D dragons. These guys are your normal problem, they may be involved with mortal politics, be meditative sages solving the mysteries of the universe or just have fun destroying things. They range the gauntlet in personality and goals, but stay out of the draconic political scene, except as minions.
2) Xorvintaal dragons. These are the guys that play with the draconic politics. They give up their innate magical capabilities so that they can harness the full power that is the Council of Wyrms. That's the theory anyways, in all actuality, they manipulate and backstab each other in such a scale that mortal nations never could consider. But woe to he who does invoke the wrath of the council.
Dragons combine the savagery of animals with an intellect greater then most people can understand, their politics are equally contradictory.
3) DragonLords. They are the grandmasters of xorvintaal and have grown in such power that they now command armies both mortal and draconic. They are preparing and taking side for the upcoming war. They are the movers and shakers of the world, and adept at manipulating event to their preference. The only threats that they have are each other, otherworldly powers, and possibly a up-and-coming DragonLord. Occasionally, a mortal nation will cause trouble for a DragonLord, but this is a rare occurrence if not provoked by one of their opponents.

As a side not, I believe that dragons should not color coded.

Eldan
2010-05-01, 03:26 PM
Well, they were originally kobold eggs modified to create guardian creatures, infused with the power of the creator's blood. The lust for treasure and other common attributes shared by most dragons are a consequence of the original design; the personality traits being color coded with breath weapons is an artifact of the first few dragonwrights color-coding their own specific variants.

It was just a teensie miscalculation that, once created, the dragons didn't stop growing and gathering more power. By the time the dragonwrights understood what was happening, they were unable to get rid of their creations. The dragons were, at that point, drawing enough magical power to start to hinder the kobold race as a whole and had gained enough intelligence to start taking over.

Of course! They are the earliest attempts at creating Pun-pun.

Xyk
2010-05-01, 04:29 PM
I think of them as practically demi-gods. To slay one is heroic. They can pretty much do what they want. I'm not gonna tell them they can't cast spells.