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View Full Version : Level 20 Cleric trapped - no tongue, no hands, solo...help?



AngellusMortus
2010-04-29, 09:13 PM
First of all, hello everyone. I've been a lurker around the giantitp forums for awhile, but never bothered to post. Now I regret that because my first thread is a desperate call for help! But I thought someone should be able to help me. :smallsmile:

Alright, here's my situation: My level 20 Cleric/Malconvoker/Thaumaturgist was resurrected in the Abyss itself, being tortured by a whole room of demons as punishment for his enslavement of them. Before I was resurrected, they lopped off my hands and tongue and bound me, so all of my stuff is gone and I can't do anything that requires a verbal or somatic component. No none has any idea where I am, and I'm unscryable (long story.) Other than a whoooole lot of prayer, is there anything at all I can do to get myself out of this one? I know some serious creativity might be required. (Honestly, this might actually be an unwinnable situation. But we'll see.)

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-29, 09:18 PM
First of all, hello everyone. I've been a lurker around the giantitp forums for awhile, but never bothered to post. Now I regret that because my first thread is a desperate call for help! But I thought someone should be able to help me. :smallsmile:

Alright, here's my situation: My level 20 Cleric/Malconvoker/Thaumaturgist was resurrected in the Abyss itself, being tortured by a whole room of demons as punishment for his enslavement of them. Before I was resurrected, they lopped off my hands and tongue and bound me, so all of my stuff is gone and I can't do anything that requires a verbal or somatic component. No none has any idea where I am, and I'm unscryable (long story.) Other than a whoooole lot of prayer, is there anything at all I can do to get myself out of this one? I know some serious creativity might be required. (Honestly, this might actually be an unwinnable situation. But we'll see.)I'm sure there are plenty of spells out there that have no V or S components, but you'd likely need a divine focus. Scrape your deity's symbol into the dirt and find a way to get a Stilled, Silent regenerate spell. Or, pray for a miracle. Literally. Spend the 5000 XP to cast it as Stilled and Silent. Maybe.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-29, 09:18 PM
First of all, hello everyone. I've been a lurker around the giantitp forums for awhile, but never bothered to post. Now I regret that because my first thread is a desperate call for help! But I thought someone should be able to help me. :smallsmile:

Alright, here's my situation: My level 20 Cleric/Malconvoker/Thaumaturgist was resurrected in the Abyss itself, being tortured by a whole room of demons as punishment for his enslavement of them. Before I was resurrected, they lopped off my hands and tongue and bound me, so all of my stuff is gone and I can't do anything that requires a verbal or somatic component. No none has any idea where I am, and I'm unscryable (long story.) Other than a whoooole lot of prayer, is there anything at all I can do to get myself out of this one? I know some serious creativity might be required. (Honestly, this might actually be an unwinnable situation. But we'll see.)

Eschew material feat bypasses needing materials.
Silent removes needing verbal.
Still removes somatic.

What feats do you have?
If you lack a holy symbol there is a cantrip (I think or 1st lv) spell that creates one.

Optimystik
2010-04-29, 09:26 PM
If you can't take feats to cast without components, then your DM is just trying to screw you. Throw the nearest book at him and reroll.

How did demons get a hold of you anyway? You have to be willing to return to be resurrected, and you always know who's trying to bring you back.

AngellusMortus
2010-04-29, 09:26 PM
Unfortunately, don't have Still, Eschew Material Components, or Silent...I have Rapid and Twin, and a slew of feats required for classes and one or two others.

That Orison for the Holy Symbol sounds useful, might try to use that! Of course, considering my other missing parts, its not quite saved yet...I have yet to come up with a spell that could help me that doesn't require some kind of V or S component. :smallannoyed:

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-04-29, 09:41 PM
How did demons get a hold of you anyway? You have to be willing to return to be resurrected, and you always know who's trying to bring you back.DM Fiat FTW!

crazedloon
2010-04-29, 09:42 PM
well my suggestion for a spell to cast (once you get around all the other problems of casting :smalltongue:) would be banishment. Just banish yourself home :smallbiggrin:

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-29, 09:45 PM
Look and see which offensive spells you've got that don't require the V, S, or D, then kill yourself. Refuse to come back unless it's someone friendly to you.

If you're brought back forcefully, you'll have your hands and tongue again, and you should be able to have your spells still prepped, so have a readied dismissal or banishment to send you home.

JeminiZero
2010-04-29, 09:45 PM
Maybe try and grab the summon elemental reserve feat. Lets you summon an elemental as a supernatural ability with no V/S/DF at will, provided you have a summoning spell ready (you don't actually have to be able to cast the spell, just have it memorized).

With a level 9 summoning spell, you can bring in any large elemental for 9 rounds. All you need is some means of telling the elemental you summon to get you out of the fix, and hope its strong enough to do so.

AngellusMortus
2010-04-29, 09:45 PM
Super evil manipulative guy charaded as a high priest and tricked an old guy who knows me into rezzing me. And yes, my DM might legitimately be trying to screw me on this one. I might take this as an "lol, re-roll."

I mean, I theoretically could've taken silent spell/still spell before, I just never did.

The Rabbler
2010-04-29, 09:45 PM
i'd try and miracle your hands and tongue back. silent, stilled regeneration seems like the best way to do that. and remember, as soon as you use that miracle to regenerate, you're able to go CoDzilla and get yourself home.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-29, 09:47 PM
i'd try and miracle your hands and tongue back. silent, stilled regeneration seems like the best way to do that. and remember, as soon as you use that miracle to regenerate, you're able to go CoDzilla and get yourself home.Just hope you can sub that 5000 XP for the V, S, and D.

Of course, it sounds like this DM is just wanting to torture you.

Literally.

Optimystik
2010-04-29, 09:48 PM
Super evil manipulative guy charaded as a high priest and tricked an old guy who knows me into rezzing me.

How did this old friend of yours end up in the Abyss without his alignment changing?


And yes, my DM might legitimately be trying to screw me on this one. I might take this as an "lol, re-roll."

To which I would reply "lol, Xbox" and very nicely tell him where he can store his dice for the next decade or so. Hint: not the bag.


I mean, I theoretically could've taken silent spell/still spell before, I just never did.

Are you allowed to retrain feats in the Abyss? Without Still and Silent there isn't a whole lot you can do.

The Rabbler
2010-04-29, 09:51 PM
BEST IDEA EVER:

miracle a psychic reformation. grab leadership. you now have a wizard cohort.

divination->planeshift->planeshift with you = gg.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-29, 09:51 PM
Go through the SRD and make a list of all the spells with no Verbal or Somatic components, and no Focus, Material, or Divine Focus components, and see which ones you can use to make your situation tenable.

I tried the spell filter in the SRD, but that's no help at all; you'll have to do it manually or find another utility to help.

holywhippet
2010-04-29, 09:52 PM
Do you have the scribe scroll feat? If you can find something to write on (clothes maybe?) you can scribe a scroll - I don't think you have to use paper. By RAW, to activate a scroll you just need to be able to read it - it doesn't say you have to read it out loud.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-29, 09:53 PM
BEST IDEA EVER:

miracle a psychic reformation. grab leadership. you now have a wizard cohort.

divination->planeshift->planeshift with you = gg.Again, take a look at the components for miracle.

Of course, you could just have 50% failure on attempted spellcasting, since you technically can wave your stumps and grunt.

Try it and see what happens.

Optimystik
2010-04-29, 09:54 PM
@ the Miracle people: Am I missing something? Miracle needs V and S.

"You state what you would like to have happen..." not very easy with no tongue, and apparently you have to gesticulate so your deity gets it, too. (Odd, considering that Wish only needs V.)

holywhippet
2010-04-29, 09:59 PM
Of course, all this assumes the character isn't being held in an anti-magic field since demons aren't actually idiots.

Ernir
2010-04-29, 10:01 PM
Wait for the DM's plot device to free you kicks in. :smallsigh:

AngellusMortus
2010-04-29, 10:03 PM
Again, take a look at the components for miracle.

Of course, you could just have 50% failure on attempted spellcasting, since you technically can wave your stumps and grunt.

Try it and see what happens.

Wait, where did that 50% thing come from? Is that just something you thought was an appropriate ruling, or can you actually try to cast spells missing components with a % for failure?

Siosilvar
2010-04-29, 10:06 PM
Wait for the DM's plot device to free you kicks in. :smallsigh:

This, or wait for the rest of the party to catch up. Or both. Make a new character as a temp (or permanent, depending...)

I cannot think of ANY spells that have literally no components.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-29, 10:06 PM
Wait, where did that 50% thing come from? Is that just something you thought was an appropriate ruling, or can you actually try to cast spells missing components with a % for failure?'Twas a guesstimate. After all, the worst that could happen if you try is that you fail.

...kinda like this whole scenario does, actually.

AngellusMortus
2010-04-29, 10:09 PM
How did this old friend of yours end up in the Abyss without his alignment changing?

Does going to the Abyss automatically change your alignment? The manipulative character I referred to before is ridiculously intelligent, I wouldn't be surprised if he were able to trick the old guy into thinking resurrecting me down there was the right thing to do. I mean, I am a specialist in controlling Demons, bringing me back in the Abyss for some divine reason isn't the most outlandish lie I've ever heard. Oh, and he killed the old guy afterwards.

holywhippet
2010-04-29, 10:14 PM
Wait, where did that 50% thing come from? Is that just something you thought was an appropriate ruling, or can you actually try to cast spells missing components with a % for failure?

Not according to the SRD.

Come to think of it, what domain spells do you have available.

Redrat2k6
2010-04-29, 10:16 PM
Well Somatic Components are not going to work at all because you need at least one hand free for a spell with somatic components (SRD).

And Verbal Component spells do not work because you need to be able to "Speak in a strong voice" (SRD)

So unless anyone knows of any spells that do not have any components at all, your out of luck.

+1 to wait for DM plot device.

Optimystik
2010-04-29, 10:17 PM
Does going to the Abyss automatically change your alignment?

No; I'm just asking how he got there.


The manipulative character I referred to before is ridiculously intelligent, I wouldn't be surprised if he were able to trick the old guy into thinking resurrecting me down there was the right thing to do. I mean, I am a specialist in controlling Demons, bringing me back in the Abyss for some divine reason isn't the most outlandish lie I've ever heard. Oh, and he killed the old guy afterwards.

No offense, but it sounds a bit like you're making excuses for your DM here. You would need a colossal Diplomacy check to convince someone that following you to the Abyss is a good idea and that reviving his friend, who has made a career out of tricking demons, while you're down there is also a good idea.

Unless he has a Wis of 2, in which case you've made your own bed by befriending him and coming when he calls. Though that begs the question of how he was wise enough to cast a 7th or 9th-level cleric spell.

AmberVael
2010-04-29, 10:27 PM
After having done a spell search in one of my favorite spell search engines... I can't find a single cleric spell that is without Verbal or Somatic components.

You're out of luck on that end (and therefore, out of luck entirely, unless I miss my guess).

Krazddndfreek
2010-04-29, 10:28 PM
Unless he has a Wis of 2, in which case you've made your own bed by befriending him and coming when he calls. Though that begs the question of how he was wise enough to cast a 7th or 9th-level cleric spell.

It also begs the question of how he got killed. :smallconfused:

Optimystik
2010-04-29, 10:29 PM
It also begs the question of how he got killed. :smallconfused:

Like everything else in this scenario, I'm sure fiat played a part.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-29, 10:32 PM
I suggest waiting until you die and praying that you're reincarnated as a psion.

AmberVael
2010-04-29, 10:39 PM
Incidentally, Shalist, that is the spell search I used.
The only Cleric spells it turned up without Verbal and Somatic components were just mistakes, as they both actually had them in the source material.

There are none that lack Verbal and Somatic. There are some that lack Verbal OR Somatic, but that's not really helpful here.

holywhippet
2010-04-29, 10:52 PM
Also, rather than try to Rambo this, why not focus on getting a message to your buddies, and let them rescue your sorry arse? Maybe kill yourself somehow, so that they can resurrect you somewhere nicer?


That has pretty much the same problem from what I can see - the character is in a completely different plane held by demons. How exactly is he going to get a message to his allies without magic. There are lots of spells that could help, but they requre V, S or V and S.

absolmorph
2010-04-29, 10:55 PM
That has pretty much the same problem from what I can see - the character is in a completely different plane held by demons. How exactly is he going to get a message to his allies without magic. There are lots of spells that could help, but they requre V, S or V and S.
Indeed.
Also, I'm curious how unscryable this character is.

AmberVael
2010-04-29, 10:56 PM
None of his prestige class features are useful without spells, unfortunately, perhaps with the exception of Contingent Conjuration... but presumably that option has already been exhausted.

We know that he has spent at minimum, four feats on things he cannot use (two metamagic, two requirement feats that work with spells).

So basically... unless he's got some alternate cleric features, feats, or skills that can get him somewhere, he's going to have to try for something else. Like dying. Yay dying.

Try and reincarnate into a different game.

absolmorph
2010-04-29, 11:02 PM
Mentally pray to the god of thoughts.
Offer to do one quest for the god in exchange for pulling your bacon out of the fire. Since a god is aware of all things related to their portfolio, the god of thoughts will hear your prayer.
Once you're away from the demons, go to a temple of your god and pray for forgiveness and to be allowed to complete whatever quest the god of thoughts gives you.

taltamir
2010-04-29, 11:04 PM
No offense, but it sounds a bit like you're making excuses for your DM here. You would need a colossal Diplomacy check to convince someone that following you to the Abyss is a good idea and that reviving his friend, who has made a career out of tricking demons, while you're down there is also a good idea.

Did the guy:
1. Not notice that the corpse to be revived was missing both hands and its tongue.
2. I am pretty sure that spells that return you to life would also restore your tongue / hands... they would have had to bind and gag your corpse and then mutilate it AFTER your resurrection.
3. It seems like the DM is trying for a heavy handed "see, casters aren't all powerful after all" lesson.


Alrighty, back to plan B--kill yourself, and let someone nicer resurrect you the second time around.
That is plan A.


Do you have enough charisma to seduce the succubi? Find some telepathic demon and promise to murder it's bosses right in the face if it helps you?
Ok, I lied... THIS is plan A... unless DM fiat comes into play yet again (would not surprise me)... you do not need to have good charisma, you just need to roll well... Start making offers to telepathic demons, wait until you roll that nat 20 on an untrained diplomacy check...

Optimystik
2010-04-29, 11:06 PM
3. It seems like the DM is trying for a heavy handed "see, casters aren't all powerful after all" lesson.

And we have a winner

holywhippet
2010-04-29, 11:07 PM
He stated he was ressurected, not raised. Ressurection rebuilds the entire body from even a single piece - you could ressurect someone from a single finger for example. As such, I assume they grabbed him and removed his hands and tongue as soon as he was ressurected.

taltamir
2010-04-29, 11:10 PM
He stated he was ressurected, not raised. Ressurection rebuilds the entire body from even a single piece - you could ressurect someone from a single finger for example. As such, I assume they grabbed him and removed his hands and tongue as soon as he was ressurected.


Before I was resurrected, they lopped off my hands and tongue and bound me

He explicitly stated that they lopped them off before the resurrection.
I was giving his DM the benefit of the doubt that maybe he used something like raise dead and not resurrection... but I was saying that even a raise dead SHOULD fix the body up somewhat, otherwise you die as soon as you are raised.
Although, I must correct myself... this isn't actually the case... while resurrection does fix the body, raise dead does not:


A raised creature has a number of hit points equal to its current Hit Dice. Any ability scores damaged to 0 are raised to 1. Normal poison and normal disease are cured in the process of raising the subject, but magical diseases and curses are not undone. While the spell closes mortal wounds and repairs lethal damage of most kinds, the body of the creature to be raised must be whole. Otherwise, missing parts are still missing when the creature is brought back to life. None of the dead creature’s equipment or possessions are affected in any way by this spell.

A problem with that is, if they used raise dead then he would:
1. Not be level 20 anymore (lose a level).
2. must have been dead for mere days. This means that the demons would be hard pressed to orchestrate the whole thing.

and interesting note:

Resurrection
*snip*
Upon completion of the spell, the creature is immediately restored to full hit points, vigor, and health, with no loss of prepared spells. However, the subject loses one level, or 2 points of Constitution if the subject was 1st level. (If this reduction would bring its Con to 0 or lower, it can’t be resurrected). This level loss or Constitution loss cannot be repaired by any means.

He should have come back with both his arms, his tongue, and all his spells prepared.

holywhippet
2010-04-29, 11:17 PM
He should have come back with both his arms, his tongue, and all his spells prepared.

Yeah, but with no holy symbol and no time to react before being jumped, having spells still memorised isn't going to help.

Telonius
2010-04-29, 11:17 PM
There are a very few Sanctified spells from BoED that you could cast. Luminous Armor, Greater Luminous Armor, Inquisition, and Divine Inspiration. Interestingly enough, Inquisition doesn't have a verbal component.

Godskook
2010-04-29, 11:18 PM
I have found some help!

Inquisition, a spell from BoED allows you to question any creature, but strangely, doesn't require *ANY* ability to speak by RAW.

Brilliant Emanation is another goody, blinding low-level demons, giving you a chance to isolate one for the above spell.

Greater Luminous Armor gives you some combat protection, if you get into a scrape.

Channel Greater Celestial requires a verbal component and divine focus, but can give you access to all the spell-likes of a Solar, and at which point, you've basically 'won', as you'll have a wish for plane shift and greater restoration as spell-likes, to name the most pressing.

So, if you can swing it, Brilliant Emanation + GLA to get a half-decent combat scenario against mook enemies. Follow that by isolating one, and asking him "what would it take for me to regain my speech?" You now have an in-game compulsion for your DM to give you any roleplay methods of regaining speech. From there, Channel Greater Celestial gets you the 'win'.

And remember, you can do all this spontaneously, so you're not likely to run out of spell slots in a single attempt, and don't need to prepare spells to do it either.

taltamir
2010-04-29, 11:23 PM
Yeah, but with no holy symbol and no time to react before being jumped, having spells still memorised isn't going to help.

being jumped is a grapple check, as a level 20 cleric he is fairly competent at that.
Casting in grapple requires a mere concentration check.

Besides, while they COULD have done that they didn't...
They could have placed him in an AMF... they could have bound him before a res... what they did was mutilate him then raise him.
Although to be fair, they mutilated AND bound him before the raise.

Tokiko Mima
2010-04-29, 11:27 PM
Interestingly, you don't need a tongue to be able to clearly enunciate 'Pazuzu' three times. It would be better if you were a Paladin, but you have to make do with what ya got.

The free boon you get will be a lighted Candle of Invocation, which you will expend all at once to Gate in an efreet which you will use to regenerate you. Remind the DM that two can play at this plot railroad game. From here on you can fill the abyss with NI army of Solars, or go the Pun-Pun route.

Honestly though.. you are better off reminding him that if your character is trapped and bound for any length of gametime, you don't need to be present. Have him give you a call when he gets to the part where you're rescued, or roll a temporary/permanent new character.

Telonius
2010-04-29, 11:31 PM
I have found some help!

Inquisition, a spell from BoED allows you to question any creature, but strangely, doesn't require *ANY* ability to speak by RAW.

Brilliant Emanation is another goody, blinding low-level demons, giving you a chance to isolate one for the above spell.

Greater Luminous Armor gives you some combat protection, if you get into a scrape.

Channel Greater Celestial requires a verbal component and divine focus, but can give you access to all the spell-likes of a Solar, and at which point, you've basically 'won', as you'll have a wish for plane shift and greater restoration as spell-likes, to name the most pressing.

So, if you can swing it, Brilliant Emanation + GLA to get a half-decent combat scenario against mook enemies. Follow that by isolating one, and asking him "what would it take for me to regain my speech?" You now have an in-game compulsion for your DM to give you any roleplay methods of regaining speech. From there, Channel Greater Celestial gets you the 'win'.

And remember, you can do all this spontaneously, so you're not likely to run out of spell slots in a single attempt, and don't need to prepare spells to do it either.

Ah, missed Brilliant Emanation. Yes, that would do it.

Also, depending on how saintly you are, you could try to argue that your torture device counts as a "Rack of the Tortured Saint." 1/day Guidance. (Probably won't work, given what we know about the DM).

taltamir
2010-04-29, 11:31 PM
Honestly though.. you are better off reminding him that if your character is trapped and bound for any length of gametime, you don't need to be present. Have him give you a call when he gets to the part where you're rescued, or roll a temporary/permanent new character.

Exactly... Just jump to "10 years later, something happens" part.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-29, 11:35 PM
Interestingly, you don't need a tongue to be able to clearly enunciate 'Pazuzu' three times.I dunno about you, but the best I can manage without using my tongue is 'Pavuvu'.

'Z' is very difficult to manage without a tongue.

Telonius
2010-04-29, 11:47 PM
Another option... the character is a Malconvoker. That likely means that he has Bluff maxed. Some demons (Babau, Dretch, Hezrou, Succubus) are telepathic and have very low Sense Motive checks. You could play them against each other. Not necessarily seduce the succubus. But something like ... I dunno ... "The others say that you're weaker than they are." Cause dissension. Offer to trade the Vital Pact truename to an underling if they help you escape.

taltamir
2010-04-29, 11:51 PM
I dunno about you, but the best I can manage without using my tongue is 'Pavuvu'.

'Z' is very difficult to manage without a tongue.

you have all the time in the world to practice though :)


Another option... the character is a Malconvoker. That likely means that he has Bluff maxed. Some demons (Babau, Dretch, Hezrou, Succubus) are telepathic and have very low Sense Motive checks. You could play them against each other. Not necessarily seduce the succubus. But something like ... I dunno ... "The others say that you're weaker than they are." Cause dissension. Offer to trade the Vital Pact truename to an underling if they help you escape.

is seduction a bluff or a diplomacy check?
Seduce the succubus and have her help you escape :P

Flickerdart
2010-04-29, 11:56 PM
being jumped is a grapple check, as a level 20 cleric he is fairly competent at that.
Casting in grapple requires a mere concentration check.

Besides, while they COULD have done that they didn't...
They could have placed him in an AMF... they could have bound him before a res... what they did was mutilate him then raise him.
Although to be fair, they mutilated AND bound him before the raise.
Grapple: V only spells are plentiful.
AMF: Can't resurrect inside one.
Bound him: Resurrection creates a whole new body.

So...no.

Optimystik
2010-04-30, 12:00 AM
Generally, bluffing/seducing/etc. requires speech.

And as alluring as "ARM ARM ARM" could potentially sound to a fiend, it probably isn't going be to very effective at getting him freed.

Godskook
2010-04-30, 12:06 AM
Generally, bluffing/seducing/etc. requires speech.

And as alluring as "ARM ARM ARM" could potentially sound to a fiend, it probably isn't going be to very effective at getting him freed.

He specifically referenced telepathic creatures.

Telonius
2010-04-30, 12:07 AM
Generally, bluffing/seducing/etc. requires speech.

And as alluring as "ARM ARM ARM" could potentially sound to a fiend, it probably isn't going be to very effective at getting him freed.

It doesn't require speech if the target is telepathic. Quite a few demons are.

Regarding seduction ... you've forced me to fish out my copy of "Nymphology." Thanks. :smalltongue: But the "Seducer" PrC there has a "caution to the wind" ability. The target gets a will save based on the PrC level plus the seducer's charisma. (Though I'd suspect a succubus would willingly fail that kind of save).

Optimystik
2010-04-30, 12:12 AM
He specifically referenced telepathic creatures.


It doesn't require speech if the target is telepathic. Quite a few demons are.

That allows them to communicate with you. How do you initiate the conversation?

Telonius
2010-04-30, 12:16 AM
That allows them to communicate with you. How do you initiate the conversation?

Bluff check, "Deliver a secret message." Or really, just stare at it intently.

holywhippet
2010-04-30, 12:16 AM
Grapple: V only spells are plentiful.
AMF: Can't resurrect inside one.
Bound him: Resurrection creates a whole new body.

So...no.

They just need to drop the AMF as soon as the ressurection spell takes effect.

Technically there are no rules for having your hands cut off and tongue removed that I know of which means the DM is house ruling a bit - so the DM could rule that the demons grab his arms and hold his mouth shut as soon as the ressurection works so no casting. Or they could just drop something like a power word spell to keep him insensible as soon as he is revived.

Godskook
2010-04-30, 12:19 AM
That allows them to communicate with you. How do you initiate the conversation?

Inquisition, an already mentioned spell, does the trick, I should think.

Besides, roughly 60% of communication is body-language, so while a missing tongue ruins your ability to cast spells, it doesn't explicitly prevent you from starting a conversation.

Optimystik
2010-04-30, 12:21 AM
Bluff check, "Deliver a secret message." Or really, just stare at it intently.

"Secret message" refers to speaking in code. From the description: "Anyone listening to the exchange can make a Sense Motive check opposed by the Bluff check you made to transmit in order to intercept your message (see Sense Motive)."

Which implies that it's verbal, not visual - otherwise it would be "witnessing the exchange" rather than "listening."

I would guess that succubi are used to being stared at by mortals as well. Granted, one of the above may be what his DM is going for, but I personally wouldn't take the bait.

grummul
2010-04-30, 12:32 AM
Why not roleplay your way out of it? This is one of those scenarios I feel like DMs do to players when they want to take away rules options. You could bang your head against the wall just trying to figure it out.

My recommendation would be :

You spent your life sending demons back to hell. You should know then (with a knowledge planes roll) roughly what layer of the abyss you are held. I can only assume that if you are 20th level and have dedicated your life to the task of demons, that you speak abyssal.

The next thing you need to do is find one of the most common demons that inhabit the abyss. A Dretch...

...they have 100FT telepathy to Abyssal speaking targets (PF, no requisite in 3.5). I would reach out to a Dretch with an open invitation for a powerful soul in exchange for delivering a message.

Once you have a way to get a message out, have the dretch bring it to its greater demon master or perhaps your party or perhaps the lord of the ring that you are in with a challenge.

If you can try and challenge Asmodeous himself. Not only would it be "creative" but roleplayed instead of via a rule glitch that your DM could just as easily say "Nope can't do that".

Challenge Asmodeous to a game in which you take turns naming something that you could take away that would cause harm. One would start "The brakes on a car" the next "The stearing wheel" , "the road", "The earth itself", "The sun", "The universe with which the sun resides"....Then just when he has you beat say "Hope...because without the hope of one day overcoming the kingoms of the heavens, what would then happen to the minions of hell" Thank you very much Sandman Issue number 23!!!!

Optimystik
2010-04-30, 12:41 AM
If you can try and challenge Asmodeous himself. Not only would it be "creative" but roleplayed instead of via a rule glitch that your DM could just as easily say "Nope can't do that".

He'd be justified in this case; Asmodeus is nowhere near the Abyss.

taltamir
2010-04-30, 12:47 AM
Generally, bluffing/seducing/etc. requires speech.

And as alluring as "ARM ARM ARM" could potentially sound to a fiend, it probably isn't going be to very effective at getting him freed.

shows what you don't know...
non verbal communication is how its done.

besides, as mentioned before... telepathy.

BobVosh
2010-04-30, 12:47 AM
Desire: For it is not hope, but desire that we will conquer the heavens.

Alternatively: divine mandate, reason, strength

Hope is for the weak, of which Asmodeous sneers down at. People can live on without hope, but without desire they would starve, or otherwise perish.

That said I like the telepathically making a deal with a low level devil. Preferably a devil with plane shift at will, to deliver a message to someone

absolmorph
2010-04-30, 12:48 AM
Bluff check, "Deliver a secret message." Or really, just stare at it intently.
Morse code.
With your eyes.
(-blink-... -close eyes for a second-... -blink-..., etc.)

BobVosh
2010-04-30, 12:49 AM
Morse code.
With your eyes.
(-blink-... -close eyes for a second-... -blink-..., etc.)

Blink for long, wink for short.

taltamir
2010-04-30, 12:50 AM
start talking normally... the telepathic creature will see that you are obviously trying to say something. Sure they wouldn't understand your words, but they don't need to, they just need to start telepathic communcation.

absolmorph
2010-04-30, 12:52 AM
Blink for long, wink for short.
Ah, that's much simpler.

Optimystik
2010-04-30, 12:55 AM
besides, as mentioned before... telepathy.

Given this DM's current railroading attitude: if telepathy is meant to work the OP won't need to do anything to initiate it, and if it isn't meant to work the DM will come up with 1000 reasons why all the proposed winking, staring and babbling will fail anyway.

Either way, the proper answer is "so, now what?"

And yes, it does show what I know - I know that the best way to be treated like a fish is to bite the hook.

taltamir
2010-04-30, 12:59 AM
Given this DM's current railroading attitude: if telepathy is meant to work the OP won't need to do anything to initiate it, and if it isn't meant to work the DM will come up with 1000 reasons why all the proposed winking, staring and babbling will fail anyway.

Either way, the proper answer is "so, now what?"

And yes, it does show what I know - I know that the best way to be treated like a fish is to bite the hook.

well... its worth trying at least since for some reason the OP isn't taking the approach of "lol xbox".
But yea, most likely it will be fiated to not work.

TheMadLinguist
2010-04-30, 01:35 AM
Step 1: Kill yourself
Step 2: Come back as a ghost
Step 3: Wreak terrible vengeance upon those who harmed you.

Lysander
2010-04-30, 07:37 PM
One option is to bribe one of the demons holding you with a really terrible deal for yourself, like you becoming a lich and serving them loyally for a hundred years in exchange for your freedom. The one caveat is that you cannot do anything that would strip away your divine powers. A level 20 cleric as a slave for a century? A damn good deal for the demon.

Also, killing yourself works. Bite your wrist and bleed to death, or bang your head against a rock wall so an ally can true rez you.

lsfreak
2010-04-30, 09:23 PM
@Pazazu:

You can make something like Pazazu by making a v-sound, but moving your lips a bit farther forwards and your teeth down, so that there's friction between the front of your upper teeth and the back of your lower lip. Sounds more like Pajaju with a French accent, though, than an actual z-sound.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-30, 09:35 PM
@Pazazu:

You can make something like Pazazu by making a v-sound, but moving your lips a bit farther forwards and your teeth down, so that there's friction between the front of your upper teeth and the back of your lower lip. Sounds more like Pajaju with a French accent, though, than an actual z-sound.Unless you're doing something I can't figure out, you're still using your tongue there. The best you can get without it is 'Pavuvu,' which I doubt will fly.

d13
2010-04-30, 09:37 PM
I would take the approach:

"Cool, just let me know when I'm back in the game, would you?"
Cue X-Box.


Seriously, if I agreed to play under your DMing, it's because I expect you to run a good game, not to arbitrarily screw me.

lsfreak
2010-04-30, 09:50 PM
Unless you're doing something I can't figure out, you're still using your tongue there. The best you can get without it is 'Pavuvu,' which I doubt will fly.

Make the little-kids-kissing face, with your lips ridiculously far forward. Then flatten/spread them a little; I can roughly see the top half of my upper teeth and lower part of my upper gums in the mirror when I do it, and my lips are roughly heart-shaped. I believe the friction is entirely between the teeth and lips, and is somewhere between /v/ and /ʒ/ in sound, sounding a bit more /ʒ/ to me. I'm not sure that's close enough to /z/ to work, though, anyways.

Really, though, your DM is arbitrarily ****ing you over, including blatantly ignoring game rules.

Hobs
2010-05-01, 12:51 AM
yeah, i like the telepathy idea. keep thinking at whatever might be around you, offering to make a deal.

or kill yourself, by holding your breath or chewing your face off. and get resurrected by someone friendly.

2xMachina
2010-05-01, 03:28 AM
Give yourself a heart attack!

MickJay
2010-05-01, 03:49 AM
Die of thirst/hunger. how much time passed since you declared you've eaten or drunk something? :smallwink:

stenver
2010-05-01, 03:49 AM
Succumb to the will of the demons and let them send you back to earth, disguised as previous demon hunter, only to be found out later by other members of the party that you ARE a demon now.

Nidogg
2010-05-01, 04:04 AM
Your a MALCONVOKER! ACT LIKE ONE! Bluff a demon into freeing you in order you dont summon a PIT FEIND on their asses! (Blood war FTW!)

Gaiyamato
2010-05-01, 04:17 AM
Well I went over the list of spells that you could use at all and had just this one spell left:

http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/spells.php?ID=5068

Without a focus, not being able to speak and having no workable limbs you are royally screwed.

TheMadLinguist
2010-05-01, 04:18 AM
Well I went over the list of spells that you could use at all and had just this one spell left:

http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/spells.php?ID=5068

Without a focus, not being able to speak and having no workable limbs you are royally screwed.
That's a typo. It has V and S components.

Gaiyamato
2010-05-01, 04:20 AM
Yeah I just looked it up in the book and realised that.

There is not cleric spell that does not require a focus and has no verbal or somatic component. They always have at least one of those three.

EDIT: Not getting anything that has a divine focus and noe verbal or somatic components. Seems like Clerics must always need to be able to wiggle their fingers or speak in order to cast spells.

Eddums
2010-05-01, 05:36 AM
Couldn't you still use spells with somatic components? I mean, you still have feet, right?

Yuki Akuma
2010-05-01, 05:39 AM
Couldn't you still use spells with somatic components? I mean, you still have feet, right?

That would only work if you were taught how to make somatic components with your feet rather than your hands.

So, only if you're from a species without hands, I suppose. :smalltongue:

BobVosh
2010-05-01, 05:48 AM
I question clerics having to wiggle fingers, they can do it holding a shield and weapon. Probably more of a He-man motion when he proclaims forth that he has the power.

Yuki Akuma
2010-05-01, 05:50 AM
No, Clerics can't perform somatic components while holding a heavy shield and carrying a weapon. They can perform them while holding a light shield, though.

And it doesn't take an action to drop your weapon.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-01, 09:01 AM
That would only work if you were taught how to make somatic components with your feet rather than your hands.

So, only if you're from a species without hands, I suppose. :smalltongue:This would appear to have relevance in this situation.

Also, skill checks. You has them.

2xMachina
2010-05-01, 11:28 AM
Skill check: Stay calm.

Wait till you crit fail it. You now have an heart attack and die.

Arctura42
2010-05-01, 01:02 PM
But if you kill yourself - won't the demons just res you again?

In this manner, you would keep losing level after level each time you do this, until you hit level 1 and start losing all your constitution points, at which point you will finally have escaped, but you have lost absolutely everything and cannot come back to life by any means. Also, the experience will no doubt be ridiculously painful and tragic. On a different note - you can perhaps suffer a much better fate by simply waiting until you hit your maximum age and die. Unless you were greedy and now you CAN'T do that (I've unfortunately suffered from such a situation once before). In any case, if you die normally, they'll res you again and the cycle begins all over, but if you die in a more permanent fashion, the game may as well end unless this is what the DM wanted to happen and now you will begin "death" in some form or other in the afterlife on your new adventure. Unless somehow you go to the Abyss when you die. That would really suck.

I wish you the best of luck - the DM really sounds like he doesn't want you to come out of this one. This is what it's like to have literally the whole universe against you. That being said you are a 20th (well, should be 19th now) level Cleric. Your deity must value you somewhat. I hope.

There is another path however. While having spells with somatic components work by waving your feet is not very easy, you could simply state that you have a lot of time on your hands in order to practice this, until it finally works. Hell, you may as well say that gaining feats merely would require a lot of time in order to figure out how to accomplish them, not some weird "experience" mechanic that is really vague to the character himself.

That being said, you are being tortured. If you have no time to do anything of your own free will (ie - the torture is sort of the constant "you're within an inch of death and we will neither let you die nor give you the opportunity to take your own life" sort of thing), then you have little choice in the matter.

What you could do (and this is rather iffy) is have some character go on an epic quest to plow through the Abyss itself. Make a character capable of doing this, and just go on a rampage. Eventually, he may even run into you, rescue you, and then voila! You are now freed by mere chance and enjoyed destroying half of the Abyss in the process. Of course, the argument against that is that the Abyss is infinite, so they probably can't do that either.

If that is the case, then you are beyond all hope. You have reached the point where the forces of the universe have directly cooperated to destroy you. Should you come out of this one, your name would go down in history as one of the mightiest beings imaginable. On that note, think of a plan, Your Awesomeness.

Optimystik
2010-05-01, 01:06 PM
But if you kill yourself - won't the demons just res you again?

You have to be willing to come back. They apparently fooled him this way once (due to his being friends with what had to be the dumbest cleric on the planet) but it would be amazing if they were able to do so a second time.

aivanther
2010-05-01, 05:26 PM
or kill yourself, by holding your breath or chewing your face off. and get resurrected by someone friendly.

You can't kill yourself by holding your breath...you drop unconscious and then start breathing again. Best bet would be slitting your wrist or something.

I would, ooc of course, ask the DM if there's a point of whether this is vindictive. If he's just dropping you in the crapper because he's mad, I'd try to reconcile with him. If he's got a point, you might have a fun adventure ahead of you.

goken04
2010-05-01, 06:04 PM
It seems like the DM is trying for a heavy handed "see, casters aren't all powerful after all" lesson.

More like NO-handed.

amirite?

2xMachina
2010-05-02, 07:18 AM
I would, ooc of course, ask the DM if there's a point of whether this is vindictive. If he's just dropping you in the crapper because he's mad, I'd try to reconcile with him. If he's got a point, you might have a fun adventure ahead of you.

^ This. If there is a point, go with it. If there isn't, either go with the: lol, xbox or just declare you die.

Last Laugh
2010-05-02, 08:43 AM
That would only work if you were taught how to make somatic components with your feet rather than your hands.

So, only if you're from a species without hands, I suppose. :smalltongue:

Hadozee from stormwrack.

is OP a monkey?

druid91
2010-05-02, 08:50 AM
Stand up and walk away, they didn't cut off your feet did they? though the suggestion to be best friends with a succubus or other telepathic demon should work, Or you could say that you are a follower of Pelor the burning hate.

Kirgoth
2010-05-02, 07:44 PM
Create greater undead has no V,S,M or DF requirements. Cast this as you die, become a shadow (ie no body so no worries about missing limbs on your old body carrying over) then you can cast V,S, DF (create one with spell). Return to your home plane with all those nice immunities and immortality and have some sweet revenge.

Arctura42
2010-05-02, 08:01 PM
Create greater undead has no V,S,M or DF requirements. Cast this as you die, become a shadow (ie no body so no worries about missing limbs on your old body carrying over) then you can cast V,S, DF (create one with spell). Return to your home plane with all those nice immunities and immortality and have some sweet revenge.

There is one problem with this, and that is that Create Greater Undead does have V, S, and M components. Here are my sources:

Create Greater Undead:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/creategreaterundead.htm

The requirements/descriptions for it are everything from Create Undead (see below):

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createUndead.htm

In that description, it says that there are V, S, and M components very clearly.

Then there's the problem of WHEN to cast it . . . I'd say it'd require a Delayed Spell. And then you'd need to KNOW when you're dying, otherwise it wouldn't work. Hm . . . but this could have applications now that I think about it . . . (goes and makes NPC do this in campaign) . . .