PDA

View Full Version : 4e and XP Question



Leon
2010-04-29, 11:51 PM
Is there some way of determining how much XP a creature gives for a encounter?

I have seen the stats that say what a monster is worth but I'm not sure how to allocate for a NPC that i have created.

have 2 separate encounters that have a lvl 3 NPC and some minions plus a encounter with 4 lvl 2 NPCs

erikun
2010-04-29, 11:54 PM
The table on DMG, p. 120 shows the experience rewards for all levels for standard creatures, minions, elites, and solos. It's also listed in every monster stat block, directly below their level (upper right).

[EDIT]
Er, the experience totals are added together for everything, then divided up between the party. That's pretty common, although it's easy to miss if it isn't pointed out. (I certainly didn't know that the first few times I DMed.)

TheOOB
2010-04-29, 11:55 PM
XP for enemies is based on their level, and their status as a minor, normal monster, elite monster, or solo monster. You are not supposed to actually make characters using PC rules as opponents, there are templates in the monster manual to make enemies who simulate PC abilities.

That said, if you did make a PC character and use them as an enemy, I would count them as an elite monster of their level. They definatly are not solo encounters, but they are a good deal more powerful than normal creatures.

Leon
2010-04-29, 11:58 PM
Ok, i'll have to see if i can borrow a DMG - don't own any of the books myself, just going off the cards that i have seen and the Free PC Gen.

Well two of the Encounters are a Boss with some henchmen

One is a Cleric and the other is a Ranger

Then there is a separate encounter that is a group of 3 Rogues and a Cleric

There is also a Ranger who could be a ally if the party let him survive past the the "Kick in the Door" stage

Excession
2010-04-30, 01:06 AM
In 4e, don't build monsters as PCs. PCs are built to fight monsters, and things get wonky if you do otherwise. Mostly in terms of potential DPR vs. number of hit points on both sides. The DMG will tell you how to build custom monsters. If you want a monster to be a Ranger, give it a bow or two weapons; nobody should care beyond that. Monsters with healing spells is a whole different problem, so be careful not to overdo that.

Leon
2010-04-30, 01:37 AM
In 4e, don't build monsters as PCs. PCs are built to fight monsters, and things get wonky if you do otherwise. Mostly in terms of potential DPR vs. number of hit points on both sides. The DMG will tell you how to build custom monsters. If you want a monster to be a Ranger, give it a bow or two weapons; nobody should care beyond that. Monsters with healing spells is a whole different problem, so be careful not to overdo that.

Given that I'm a 3.5 DM being shoehorned into a 4e DM PCs as monster can come along for the ride, also dont have a DMG here and by the time i see one tomorrow it will be a bit to late to be useful.

Ranger is just a bit more than a Bow/Sword... and from the looks ive taken of the book while in shops there is not much in the way of Non monster creatures (ie basic elves/dwarves etc. I recall the drow entries to all be quite high lvl).

All these NPC related encounters may not even be played - I'm running a random dungeon and they may not be drawn or they may all be.

2 of them are a NPC and some minions. 1 is 4 Low level PCs and the last is a Friendly NPC

The New Bruceski
2010-04-30, 04:34 AM
Class templates as of DMG2:
--A normal creature becomes Elite
--Pick one at-will, can pick two but do it sparingly
--Choose one level-appropriate encounter power
--Choose one level-appropriate daily power
--Choose one appropriate utility power
--Apply the stat changes and abilities from the class template (which I'm not comfortable sharing in its entirety so you'll need to get those somewhere else).

The idea is to simplify character creation for a foe (or possibly friend, NPC creation works the same) who doesn't need every ability/stat detailed out. The section on applying the templates even says to trim things further if it would add unnecessary cluttering abilities and you just need a utility power (for example) to get the right flavor.

As for making the base creature you can either use the guidelines in "Creating a Monster" in the DMG, or find one of the appropriate level in the Monster Manual. For example, just glancing at my copy of the MM2 I spy an Eladrin Arcane Archer, a level 5 artillery who could easily be given a couple of Ranger abilities.

If you can't find a creature of the appropriate race at the level you want, swap the defining powers and nobody's the wiser. For example if I wanted to turn the aforementioned Arcane Archer into an Elf, I would drop Fey Step and Eldritch Burst, give it Elven Accuracy and the ability to shift in difficult terrain, probably change the fire damage of Scorching Arrows to physical damage, and it's now an Elven Archer.

Yuki Akuma
2010-04-30, 04:52 AM
If you want to DM 4e... you'll need the DMG. Really.

Using the PC rules for monsters does not work in 4e. PCs have far less HP and massively inflated damage compared to monsters. Do you want them to one-shot your boss?

DragonBaneDM
2010-04-30, 09:26 AM
The XP for a monster is at the top right of it's stat block, under it's role and level.

Unless we're talking about something totally different.

Badgerish
2010-04-30, 09:51 AM
The XP for a monster is at the top right of it's stat block, under it's role and level.

Unless we're talking about something totally different.Yup, we are talking about why do you don't normally use NPCs created using the PC rules as antagonists in 4ed.

because:
their HP is really low, their NADS are rather low, they carry far too much magical treasure and they do far too much damage with dailies/encounters.

Oh, and they take much, much longer to write up.

edit: If you want what looks like 'monsters with PC levels' you generally take a pre-existing monster (an Elven Archer or Human Guard) and either:
swap one/two of it's powers for PC powers, possibly add another power if it looks weak
add a class template from the DMG, which comes with doubled HP, increased defences and extra powers (and increased XP value of course)

Divide by Zero
2010-04-30, 11:22 AM
I don't play 4E, so I don't know whether this would work for sure, but in my 3.5 games I just wing it as far as the XP and CR systems are concerned. Make a challenge that seems appropriate, and give the players as much XP as I think they deserve. YMMV, though.

valadil
2010-04-30, 11:34 AM
Class templates as of DMG2:


Out of curiosity, is there anything resembling a race template? So far I've been subbing out racial powers as needed, but I haven't adjusted any stats. I was wondering if there were any official guidelines on this.

Inyssius Tor
2010-04-30, 12:57 PM
Out of curiosity, is there anything resembling a race template? So far I've been subbing out racial powers as needed, but I haven't adjusted any stats. I was wondering if there were any official guidelines on this.


Add or substitute the appropriate racial powers as needed.

:smallwink:

Artanis
2010-04-30, 01:21 PM
I don't play 4E, so I don't know whether this would work for sure, but in my 3.5 games I just wing it as far as the XP and CR systems are concerned. Make a challenge that seems appropriate, and give the players as much XP as I think they deserve. YMMV, though.

Well, technically, you can just wing it in any RPG system if you really want to, and 4e is no exception. However, 4e's encounter design process was purpose-built to make it as easy and accurate as possible to create encounters "by the numbers", so to speak. So while winging it could work, it's still a really good idea to try to have the actual guidelines since it's just that big a boost.

valadil
2010-04-30, 02:13 PM
Add or substitute the appropriate racial powers as needed.


:smallwink:

This is why I love 4e. So many of the options and rulings just make sense. I know a lot of people complain that AD&D was better because it defined less and the GM could improvise more rulings, allowing the players to be more creative. But when 4e does give me the chance to make stuff up, I can do so in a concise and consistent way that makes sense and has a decent chance of actually being correct. Thanks, WotC!

Thajocoth
2010-04-30, 02:59 PM
Find another monster of the same level who is also a minion/standard/elite/solo. They should be worth the same amount of XP.

A PC is stronger than a standard, but not as strong as a solo. If you use the PC rules to make them, go with the XP for an elite.

Yakk
2010-04-30, 03:10 PM
The XP calculation for monsters is pretty easy.

100 at level 1. +25 per level up to level 5.

+4 levels doubles the XP value.

Elite doubles the XP value (with double double being 4x).

Solo x5 the XP value.

Minion /4 the XP value at heroic, /5 at paragon, /6 at epic.

The defences of a monster should be (as a base):
AC: 14+L
Fort: 12+L
Reflex: 12+L
Will: 12+L

Soldiers should have +2 AC, Brutes and Artillery -2 AC. Whichever NAD your monster "attacks" with should be +1 to +2 higher.

You can then add or subtract 1 or 2 points from the above to taste.

Attacks should be:
5+L for vs AC attacks
3+L for vs non-AC attacks (Fort, reflex and will)
as a base.

Brutes should have attacks 2 lower.
Soldiers should have attacks 2 higher.
Controllers get a +1 vs non-AC targets.
Area attacks get a -1 (unless you are a controller).

Damage output, per round, if "everything hits" (as average damage) should be between 4+L and 8+2*L. The lower value is used for soldiers, the higher value for brutes, with artillery in the middle. Lurkers are just wonkey.

Roughly:
Soldiers 4+1*L
Controller 5+1.4*L
Artillery 6+1.5*L
Skirmisher 7+1.7*L
Brute 8+2*L

Guess how many targets area attack powers will target. Multiply damage by 1 + 0.5 for every target beyond the first (so a power you guess will hit 3 targets is about as good as a power with twice the damage who hits 1 target).

Damage from a single attack on a single target should never pass an average of 12+3*L (that is enough to bloody an even-level defender in a single blow, or drop an almost-bloody defender). This means that solos (and solo brutes) need to have multi-target powers and lots of little powers to get the damage output they need to be a danger to a party.

Eyeball status effects. Controllers should have lots, and Soldiers should have a semi-annoying mark.

Multiply damage output by 1.5 for Elites, and 3.0 for Solos. Solos should do less than this damage (but still higher than elite) before they are bloodied, then ramp-up to higher damage post-bloodied.

...

The point of all of this? Building monsters that will push your players to the edge of defeat, and then they seemingly miraculously recover.

This is because you tune the damage output of monsters so that it is high enough to be a threat, but low enough that players pull ahead and tend to defeat them before the players run out of HP. Initial damage output needs to be high enough to feel threatening, and enough to overwealm the players ... if the players class powers where not on their side, which redefines the battle.

HP in 4e is a pacing mechanism. So you tune the monster damage output based on the pacing goal of "by the skin of their teeth", instead of by simulating the lifestyles and upbringing of a particular monster. :)

Reverse-wise, you could work out damage output then determine what level of threat the monster needs to be for that damage output.

A monster with lots of HP is a monster that gets to play around a bunch before going down. Monster HP tends to be higher than PC HP, monster defences are low enough that players can connect, and monster attacks are low enough that high-defence players get payoff from their high defence.

I hope that helps.

(Note: average damage per hit calculation above is not Canon DMG advice. The to-hit numbers etc are canon DMG advice).

Oh, and the HP by level and role of monsters... anyone remember what it was off the top of their head?

Leon
2010-04-30, 09:32 PM
Thankyou Yakk.



If you want to DM 4e... you'll need the DMG. Really.

Don't really want to DM 4e but we have a DM shortage and high demand for games so i kinda said yes to running a game this month and then left it to the last day or two get prepared

Yuki Akuma
2010-05-01, 02:47 AM
Still, you'll want to read a copy of the 4e DMG at some point. It's not one of those DMing advice manuals you can just skip over - it contains all the rules the DM needs.

The Monster Manual is just a bunch of pregenerated monsters using the rules in the DMG. You don't need the Monster Manual at all this edition, it has nothing but monsters in it.

ninja_penguin
2010-05-01, 07:54 AM
On the plus side, Leon, 4e DM'ing can be done in a few hours worth of prep time. It's one reason why I've ended up loving DMing for it, if the entire week goes to pot on me and I've only got three hours, I can still whip up everything I need for the week's session.

Yakk
2010-05-01, 10:40 AM
So, why do you want the DMG?

It contains:
Tricks to pacing the distribution of magic items so that players are at roughly the right level of gear.

Tricks to building encounters that allow you to create fights that are dangerous and thrilling, but that the players can (with reasonable tactics) win.

Tricks to building monsters so that the above holds true for your newly designed monsters.

Basically, in previous editions there was rule-of-thumb and CR. Both didn't work. In 4e, there are systems that help the DM build a dungeon where fights can spill over from one room to another, traps abound, and the entire fight is not hopeless (despite containing 10+ opponents), nor is it trivial if you manage to divide the opponents up and fight them in small groups.