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Kaskos
2010-04-30, 08:06 AM
Hiya Guys,

My other posts have generally been related to Druids but as i am still stuck in the old campaigns right now (we play 3 different games based on who cant turn up) and the one that is soon to be the main is where i was forced to play a rogue because i rolled the best stats (apparently)

I have stats as follows:
Str: 10 Con: 16
Dex: 18 Int: 17
Wis: 16 Cha: 9
(I will double check these but they are very close if not exact)

Were level 2 so far now and i am Rogue/Ranger. I am standard half-ling
I have a riding dog trained to attack and for the first couple of levels this was AWESOME and i was outfighting the Barbarian and the Fighter but alas, the DM is now trying to kill my dog more often than not and he doesnt advance - so he is good for a couple of levels and then GONE i am sure.

In this party makeup we have 1 Barbarian - 1 Rogue(me) - 1 Dex Fighter - 2 Clerics (one primarily healer and one more shield/buffs)

Basically the alst rogue i played i got bored of so i was wondering if anyone out there has any idea's on what would be a fun and interesting way to play this class - were looking at going into the 10-15 level at firt glances, dont hold me to that.
Books allowed are most of the 3.5 books, its in FR and most of the Complete '.........' books (although we dont have complete champion yet)

Any advice on stopping me becoming bored with this character?
All advice greatly received as always :smallsmile:

Optimystik
2010-04-30, 08:10 AM
Reroll to Factotum or Beguiler, and never be bored again.

You've definitely got the stats for it too.

Caliphbubba
2010-04-30, 08:12 AM
How do you feel about Beguiler? I think with a one level dip you can eventually get into Unseen Seer.

Most of the Glaivelock builds I've seen are heavily invested in rogue and/or scout. and look really fun to me.

Keld Denar
2010-04-30, 08:16 AM
Yea, swap Int and Dex and Wis and Cha, and you'll be golden for a Beguiler. They cover the "rogue" role of trapfinding, have buffing and battlefield control similar to a wizard, and some awesome spells to out-rogue a rogue.

Optimization-wise, a Beguiler is VERY straight forward. Either Beguiler20, or Beguiler5/Mindbender1/Beguiler+14 are 2 of the most simple and effective builds. You don't have to worry about picking spells, since you all of them on your list. The most complicated thing is picking your Advanced Learnings, but there are many great guides out there to help.

Kaskos
2010-04-30, 08:19 AM
Sounds intriguing but the only issue i see is having never played a Beguilaer - and making my DM allow a change as were already in his first instance.
It was You take the rogue for spell/trap purposes so whether he'd allow the switch or not i dont know.

So currently, main problem is i have never played one

Optimystik
2010-04-30, 08:22 AM
Sounds intriguing but the only issue i see is having never played a Beguilaer - and making my DM allow a change as were already in his first instance.
It was You take the rogue for spell/trap purposes so whether he'd allow the switch or not i dont know.

So currently, main problem is i have never played one

They're like rogues, but instead of sneak attack they can cast illusion and enchantment spells. Because they are Int-based you end up with a ton more skill points than a rogue usually.

You get a LOT more to do in combat - locking down the ogre or downright taking control of him, dropping those ghouls in a Solid Fog to keep them away from the squishies, charming and smooth-talking the entire party to go and see the king... and you still get to do your trapfinding and scouting duties.

They are in PHB2; do your best to get your DM to let you at them.

Eldan
2010-04-30, 08:23 AM
Well, assuming that your character is made up as he is, and that's not going to change, I see several options:


Ditch your dog and go sneaky TWF: as a start, get two-weapon fighting (from ranger levels) and weapon finesse. Get sneaky, stab enemies for massive and repeated sneak attack damage from having a lot of attacks. The basic two-weapon rogue build, I'm sure you can find extensive guides on that online.

The alternative is getting more ranger levels: ask your DM if you can make your dog into an animal companion, that should buff him a little. If you are a halfling, maybe look into the halfling outrider class, that's pretty good for a mounted character.

Caliphbubba
2010-04-30, 08:23 AM
I have the impression that they play like a rogue/wizard multiclass, but simpler and more focused out of the box.

If he doesn't let you retrain or swap things out, that doesn't stop you from taking Beguiler as later levels.

Amphetryon
2010-04-30, 08:27 AM
Rogue 3/Ranger 4/Wolf Lord 3/Beastmaster 10. :smallsmile:

Spend feats to improve flanking bonus - Vexing Flanker is good for this - and to get Assassin's Stance to increase SA.

Kaskos
2010-04-30, 08:31 AM
The last rogue i played i started moving towards Dancing Dervish but that proved not exciting enough in getting there.

I iwll definitely try to get my DM to change his mind as i cant think of anything worse than playing a game with a character you dont really enjoy - i could see him dying a most untimely death but again would hate to waste some of the stats he has.

Beguiler does sound pretty good to me and i am intrigued about the Beastmaster etc cos i have never looked at Wolf Lord before.

But so far, Beguiler seems to attract everyones attention as to keeping me interested - but i need to switch the stats about first, right?

Human Paragon 3
2010-04-30, 08:33 AM
This is sort of an interesting concept that I had fun with.

You have multiclass Rogue/Ranger which gives you TWF, sneak attack, better than average BAB and great movement skills.

Handle animal gives you a limitless supply of flanking buddies (just because your DM is trying to kill your dog doesn't mean you should dump this strategy. Grab a new pal when Fido bites it, preferably a bigger one like a nice dire Wolf or something with some oomf. Never worry about qualifying for sneak attack again!

Now, here's what makes your guy cool. Fight with a staff.

Yeah, I know long sword/short sword is better for TWF, but you're not going to be full attacking every single round. On those rounds where you charge, or move and attack, you can power attack with a two handed weapon. On rounds where you get to full attack, go nuts with your staff. The image alone is pretty priceless.

You should almost always have sneak attack thanks to your animals, so no worries there. Now get the feat Staggering Strike. Teamed with a solid attack bonus and good damage from power attack, you will be staggering your enemies almost every round you hit them, which is a death sentence for any enemy that relies on skirmishing tactics or big full attacks. i.e. most of them.

Outside of combat you get to sneak, climb and tumble around which is always fun. Pick up a little UMD for wands, and there will be no situation where you're not awesome.

Caliphbubba
2010-04-30, 08:36 AM
The last rogue i played i started moving towards Dancing Dervish but that proved not exciting enough in getting there.

I iwll definitely try to get my DM to change his mind as i cant think of anything worse than playing a game with a character you dont really enjoy - i could see him dying a most untimely death but again would hate to waste some of the stats he has.

Beguiler does sound pretty good to me and i am intrigued about the Beastmaster etc cos i have never looked at Wolf Lord before.

But so far, Beguiler seems to attract everyones attention as to keeping me interested - but i need to switch the stats about first, right?

Switching the stats would certainly help. But I think you could probably do it without the swap as the Beguiler's casting is Int based not Cha based.

Human Paragon 3
2010-04-30, 08:39 AM
I'm gonna go ahead and advise against beguiler. It's a great class, but it's not the character you have. I just think it's weird to totally abandon your character class mid game and grab a whole new concept.

You might as well tear up your character sheet and start over if that's what you want. Have your rogue walk off into the distance, or make him dragon food. Nothing wrong with that. I let my players do it all the time. And if you're really not having fun, that's what you should do.

But if you want to keep your current character, work with the existing framework. There are ways to have cool and interesting characters without being a caster.

Person_Man
2010-04-30, 08:42 AM
If you stay a Rogue, I would swap Str and Wis so that you don't have to waste a feat on Weapon Finesse. If you're bored you just buy wands and have fun with UMD (once you can afford them).

Master of Masks 1 is an easy way to add a lot of variety (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5266526) to any Skill Monkey build.

Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b), Beguiler, Factotum, Incarnate, and Binder are all more interesting Skill Monkeys. Incarnate and Binder in particular do well in multiclass builds, so you wouldn't have to change your Rogue level. And the Incarnate is a Con/Wis based class, which you have the attributes for.

BobVosh
2010-04-30, 08:50 AM
Just keep your two levels of rogue, and use the wildshape variant ranger. Lots of fun, imo. Take natural bond and your animal companion should keep up pretty well.

Kaskos
2010-04-30, 08:55 AM
Just keep your two levels of rogue, and use the wildshape variant ranger. Lots of fun, imo. Take natural bond and your animal companion should keep up pretty well.

Sounds like you are saying make him into a Druid?

Learnedguy
2010-04-30, 08:55 AM
This is sort of an interesting concept that I had fun with.

You have multiclass Rogue/Ranger which gives you TWF, sneak attack, better than average BAB and great movement skills.

Handle animal gives you a limitless supply of flanking buddies (just because your DM is trying to kill your dog doesn't mean you should dump this strategy. Grab a new pal when Fido bites it, preferably a bigger one like a nice dire Wolf or something with some oomf. Never worry about qualifying for sneak attack again!

Now, here's what makes your guy cool. Fight with a staff.

Yeah, I know long sword/short sword is better for TWF, but you're not going to be full attacking every single round. On those rounds where you charge, or move and attack, you can power attack with a two handed weapon. On rounds where you get to full attack, go nuts with your staff. The image alone is pretty priceless.

You should almost always have sneak attack thanks to your animals, so no worries there. Now get the feat Staggering Strike. Teamed with a solid attack bonus and good damage from power attack, you will be staggering your enemies almost every round you hit them, which is a death sentence for any enemy that relies on skirmishing tactics or big full attacks. i.e. most of them.

Outside of combat you get to sneak, climb and tumble around which is always fun. Pick up a little UMD for wands, and there will be no situation where you're not awesome.

My vote goes for this. It's solid and in lieu with the rest of your party's strength.

If your party is losing to a pet, there's no reason to go crazy with your build.

Kaskos
2010-04-30, 09:05 AM
My vote goes for this. It's solid and in lieu with the rest of your party's strength.

If your party is losing to a pet, there's no reason to go crazy with your build.

The Barbarian overtook last week but the Dex fighter lost 8 points of Dex and 4 points of Con due to poison - and the DM isnt holding back on ANYTHING.

But as for that build, it is definitely an option if the DM wont even look at Beguiler - they both interest me to be honest.
I just want to enjoy what i play - which is why i am looking forward to getting my Druid as it sounds like it could interest me and the 3rd game we play - my lvl 13 Frenzy Berserker is on the verge of ending.

But the Staggering Strike Feat - Ouch!!

Emmerask
2010-04-30, 09:06 AM
Hiya Guys,

My other posts have generally been related to Druids but as i am still stuck in the old campaigns right now (we play 3 different games based on who cant turn up) and the one that is soon to be the main is where i was forced to play a rogue because i rolled the best stats (apparently)

I have stats as follows:
Str: 10 Con: 16
Dex: 18 Int: 17
Wis: 16 Cha: 9
(I will double check these but they are very close if not exact)

Were level 2 so far now and i am Rogue/Ranger. I am standard half-ling
I have a riding dog trained to attack and for the first couple of levels this was AWESOME and i was outfighting the Barbarian and the Fighter but alas, the DM is now trying to kill my dog more often than not and he doesnt advance - so he is good for a couple of levels and then GONE i am sure.

In this party makeup we have 1 Barbarian - 1 Rogue(me) - 1 Dex Fighter - 2 Clerics (one primarily healer and one more shield/buffs)

Basically the alst rogue i played i got bored of so i was wondering if anyone out there has any idea's on what would be a fun and interesting way to play this class - were looking at going into the 10-15 level at firt glances, dont hold me to that.
Books allowed are most of the 3.5 books, its in FR and most of the Complete '.........' books (although we dont have complete champion yet)

Any advice on stopping me becoming bored with this character?
All advice greatly received as always :smallsmile:

Donīt see tob on the not allowed list so:

Swordsage is always nice especially with your stats and maneuvers donīt let you get bored during battles. Out of battles you are already the one who prop gets the most time anyway (scouting, gathering information, infiltrating searching for traps, stealing stuff etcetc pp):smallwink:

So Rogue/Ranger/Swordsage/ a tob prc ...done :smallsmile:

Eldariel
2010-04-30, 09:12 AM
Also, Use Magic Device should help with the "getting bored"-part; get a bunch of cheap Wands and profit. And have fun with your skills; go out of your way to make use for them.

Kaskos
2010-04-30, 09:24 AM
Thanks alot for all your help -
Sounds to me like its all wrapped up here.

I will ask about the Beguiler and when (i think) i get told No, not now i will go with the last idea given and take a Beguiler next time.

Which book is the Beguiler in?

Eldariel
2010-04-30, 09:29 AM
Thanks alot for all your help -
Sounds to me like its all wrapped up here.

I will ask about the Beguiler and when (i think) i get told No, not now i will go with the last idea given and take a Beguiler next time.

Which book is the Beguiler in?

Player's Handbook II.

Pluto
2010-04-30, 12:01 PM
Basically the alst rogue i played i got bored of so i was wondering if anyone out there has any idea's on what would be a fun and interesting way to play this class - were looking at going into the 10-15 level at firt glances, dont hold me to that.
Put max ranks in acrobatic skills, UMD, Sleight of Hand and Bluff.
If you can't make a fun an interesting character out of that, you aren't trying.
[applies to all rogue types]

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-30, 01:31 PM
Rogue 4/Swashbucker 10/Scarlet Corsair 6. You're a Pirate. Nuff said

Samb
2010-04-30, 02:29 PM
I'm sorry that you don't like rogue. But if it makes you feel any better I love rogues. They were the first class I picked up and you can play them anyway you want.

The problem I see isn't the rogue class but that you have a DM that forces you to do things. First he forced you to be the skill monkey, then when you a fun way to play (the attack dog was a sweet idea IMO) he wants to nerf that as well.

DnD shouldn't be played that way. The DM should be running the story based on the rules. If he cannot adapt to your playstyle then he should at least be content that you are having fun. I think you should play whatever you want but rogue really is a great class thanks to skills.

Jeff240sx
2010-04-30, 02:49 PM
Umm.. get your character killed off.

Take 10 on a trap you know has a higher DC than 10 + skillmod. To ensure failure, have a low, low number of ranks in Disarm Trap, but fully pumped Search to find the buggers.

Fight in melee before the other party shows up - stay 50' ahead, in the shadows, at all times, so that you will get pounded on for a round before backup arrives.

You can figure out how to dimwittedly die fairly easy. Then roll up a Beguiler.

I'll never play a straight rogue if I can help it. So many other skillmonkey trapfinders out there. Or, maybe dip rogue if needed, but I wouldn't play a rogue-based character.

Amphetryon
2010-04-30, 02:53 PM
Umm.. get your character killed off.

Take 10 on a trap you know has a higher DC than 10 + skillmod. To ensure failure, have a low, low number of ranks in Disarm Trap, but fully pumped Search to find the buggers.

Fight in melee before the other party shows up - stay 50' ahead, in the shadows, at all times, so that you will get pounded on for a round before backup arrives.

You can figure out how to dimwittedly die fairly easy. Then roll up a Beguiler.

I'll never play a straight rogue if I can help it. So many other skillmonkey trapfinders out there. Or, maybe dip rogue if needed, but I wouldn't play a rogue-based character.Please tell me this is sarcasm, or some other form of humor that thrives on the internet? :smalleek:

Human Paragon 3
2010-04-30, 03:00 PM
Oh, if you do decide to go with the build I laid out with the staff and staggering strike, I would stick with 3 levels of rogue to maximize your BAB, since power attack is a little better than sneak attack dice.

You can supplement with some martial study/stance feats from ToB to add a little more sneak attack, and the craven feat so you can add your level to sneak attacks. Oh yeah, DEFINITELY take craven.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-30, 03:01 PM
Please tell me this is sarcasm, or some other form of humor that thrives on the internet? :smalleek:

Well, the guy did complain about being a rogue in thread topic so he gave ideas for changing classes (dying).

Granted, he may not have read the thread itself.

Doc Roc
2010-04-30, 03:51 PM
What if I told you I could build you a rogue you would cherish forever?

ErrantX
2010-04-30, 03:54 PM
What if I told you I could build you a rogue you would cherish forever?

I'd believe him too, his Kung Fu is strong.

Also, consider Swashbuckler and Daring Outlaw. Ambush feats are nice as well. Those are in Complete Scoundrel. Also consider seeing if you can trade the Rogue levels for Scout (CAdv), and use Swift Hunter (CSc)

-X

Kaskos
2010-05-01, 01:02 PM
What if I told you I could build you a rogue you would cherish forever?

If you reckon you could, i would be more than willing to have a look at that set up of which you speak :smallcool:

I checked last night when we ran (ran my Barbarian character in another game) but he is currently Rogue 1 / Ranger 2. Trying to distance myself from the Rogue a little i think.
But saying that, i am all for looking at different ways to play one - my only problem i see now is he is very unlikely to let us re-make them and as such would be stuck with the levels i already have and a 2 feats i think that are already set to help with mounted attacks - Mounted Combat and Ride By Attack

Doc Roc
2010-05-01, 03:53 PM
Yeouch, that's rough. It's gonna be a really hard base to run off of. I'll see what I can do.

Your feats of choice are:
Craven, from Champions of Ruin
Knowledge Devotion, from Complete Champions

Your skills of choice are:
UMD
Search
Spot
Listen
Disable Device

In that order.

Kaskos
2010-05-01, 04:42 PM
Yeouch, that's rough. It's gonna be a really hard base to run off of. I'll see what I can do.

Your feats of choice are:
Craven, from Champions of Ruin
Knowledge Devotion, from Complete Champions

Your skills of choice are:
UMD
Search
Spot
Listen
Disable Device

In that order.

I am gonna plead to make him let me go back to pure rogue (lose the Ranger bit which should make Multi-classing easier)
Not totally sure on what Knowledge Devotion does though?
And i believe Craven adds 1pt of dmg per level to my sneal attack right?

Doc Roc
2010-05-01, 04:48 PM
Yes, it does.
Knowledge devotion lets you roll knowledge skills to get combat bonuses, which is amazing because it includes to-hit bonuses if my memory serves me.

Curmudgeon
2010-05-01, 04:50 PM
Not totally sure on what Knowledge Devotion does though? It's a feat in Complete Champion which gives you bonuses to both attack and damage based on your Knowledge check for a particular group of creature types. Check out the skill and you'll see that there are 6 Knowledge skills related to creature types. Take the feat, put lots of ranks in these skills, and you'll have bonuses in combat.

And i believe Craven adds 1pt of dmg per level to my sneal attack right? Yes, it's 1 point per character level, which makes it especially useful for multiclass characters. Also, since only damage dice aren't multiplied on a critical hit, this is a great incentive to get a keen rapier: critical sneak attacks double up on your Craven damage.

Doc Roc
2010-05-01, 04:51 PM
So talk to me about party optimization level, and I'll walk you through some of the other items you'll eventually want.

Kaskos
2010-05-01, 04:52 PM
Yes, it does.
Knowledge devotion lets you roll knowledge skills to get combat bonuses, which is amazing because it includes to-hit bonuses if my memory serves me.

And standard rogue-ish stuff around that?
Use a dagger mostly, or get upgraded to a Keen Rapier when i can as suggested and jsut keep goig as rogue levels?

Critical
2010-05-01, 04:55 PM
And standard rogue-ish stuff around that?
Use a dagger mostly, or get upgraded to a Keen Rapier when i can as suggested and jsut keep goig as rogue levels?

Get Keen Kukri. Bam, same crit range and it's light.

EDIT: Wildshape Ranger's not bad at all... Go something like Rogue 1/Ranger 5/Master of Many Forms 10/Warshaper 4, perhaps trading some Warshaper levels for Rogue levels to get Evasion and more skills. Get Craven, Knowledge Devotion and Power Attack. Wild Shape into Hydra.

Doc Roc
2010-05-01, 04:57 PM
Why does it matter? It's not like he can TWF for a while yet.
Any time someone says Wildshape Ranger, I'm going to say Wildshape druid.

To clarify:
TWF is only effective from about 6 or 8 onward. You'll want an item called gloves of the balanced hand, eventually, if you do go the TWF route. It gives you TWF until you have it, and then ITWF once you do. Great item, not too expensive. Magic of Faerun, I believe.

There are some excellent daggers that add to your sneak attack. Sofawall is fond of them, I'll try and hunt them down.

Greenish
2010-05-01, 05:00 PM
Why does it matter? It's not like he can TWF for a while yet.Kukri is cheaper and can be used for chopping wood. :smalltongue:

Doc Roc
2010-05-01, 05:05 PM
That factor is dwarfed by the overall cost of enchanting the buggers.
Gimme a little bit, please. Pulling together an optimal weapon.

Kaskos
2010-05-01, 05:06 PM
So talk to me about party optimization level, and I'll walk you through some of the other items you'll eventually want.

Well, were mostly experienced players but around the Basic books and most of the 'Complete ..........' books. Our main DM has most books dotted arond his house and in his book shelves but is hard to upgrade the stock he has now with them all being out of stock/ out of print.

We have a Dex based fighter (currently on 8 Dex and 8 Str after some bad events with poison)
We have me the Rogue with the best standalone stats.
2 x Clerics - Pretty much identical - one uses himself as a shield and one uses hmself as buffs/heal
and the main Fighter - The Barbarian.

They will all be very well made characters but they wont optimize them out of the world.

The DM however, is a little stingey as in he wont give away alot (3rd level and most we have a +1 Short Sword) and he isnt holding back any punches at all.

Doc Roc
2010-05-01, 05:14 PM
so super-low loot, in general? any free flowing gold or stuff? basically, I'm guessing that you aren't going to see correct wealth-per-level, neh?

Kaskos
2010-05-01, 05:20 PM
so super-low loot, in general? any free flowing gold or stuff? basically, I'm guessing that you aren't going to see correct wealth-per-level, neh?

I think it will be fair - not over and not too much under.
He did state that he hasnt given us anything yet when we seen him at the weekend so hopefully, a bit mroe stuff is gonna start rolling out way.

I would say treat it as fair - you can always tell me the best idea you had aswell if you already came up with an idea for that?

Curmudgeon
2010-05-01, 05:28 PM
If you're not going to be above WbL guidelines (and as a Rogue, you've got the skills so you should be consistently above), then you're going to have to rely on class features to give you an advantage.

My best recommendation: go for a 1-level dip into Shadowdancer at level 8. Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight, with maximum ranks in Hide, will give you the advantages of being visually undetectable (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#invisible) pretty much all the time. It's a steep investment, though. Try to buy Mobility as an armor enhancement (see Magic Item Compendium) which grants the feat, instead of using up one of your precious general feats. Then double up on the feat investment for Shadowdancer by taking Spring Attack as your next (9th level) feat.

Basically, against opponents with poor Spot: you stand right next to them and full attack while hiding (-20 penalty for doing so). Against foes with good Spot: you Spring Attack and Hide (no penalty for doing so while moving), attack, then Spring away and Hide again (also no penalty). It's slower, but you'll pretty much never get hit.

Doc Roc
2010-05-01, 05:29 PM
On the items front.

Life is going to be a little rough until your funds stabilize, because a tonne of the power of rogue derives from having UMD as a class skill. This means that until I know a bit more about your projected finances, I can't offer a lot of info.

Are your clerics any good? Like do they know to mostly heal outside of combat, and stuff?

sofawall
2010-05-01, 05:31 PM
It's slower, but you'll pretty much never get hit.

And that is exactly why monks are considered weak.

Doc Roc
2010-05-01, 05:34 PM
The item you will want is the gloves of the balanced hand, if you plan to be an attack-spammer.
They're incorrectly written so as to also give a spare attack.

Kaskos
2010-05-01, 05:34 PM
On the items front.

Life is going to be a little rough until your funds stabilize, because a tonne of the power of rogue derives from having UMD as a class skill. This means that until I know a bit more about your projected finances, I can't offer a lot of info.

Are your clerics any good? Like do they know to mostly heal outside of combat, and stuff?

Yeah the Clerics are mostly buffers actually. One of them relies on his big armour and takes a hit or two near the front (especially as our other fighter has taken such a bad hit) and the other cleric will heal from the back if need be. If its not needed, it'll be mopped up after the combat.

The Clerics are both played by the same player and he along with the Barbarian are easily the most experienced players we have

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-01, 05:34 PM
A one-level dip in Cloistered Cleric. You get the Knowledge domain free. Pick up the Knowledge Devotion feat (since Knowledge domain gives you all Knowledge skills as class skills so you don't have to play with shenanigans to get your skill mods up to insane levels), then pick up some Nightsticks to power Knowledge Devotion with.

The other domain should be Travel, which you should trade in for Travel Devotion to get move actions all over the place.

Your third domain should be something useful, such as the Luck domain to get a free re-roll once per day, or the domain that lets you reroll all natural 1's.

sofawall
2010-05-01, 05:37 PM
The domain that lets you reroll all natural 1's.

It's either all 1s on saves, or limited times per day, unless my memory fails me.

Doc Roc
2010-05-01, 05:39 PM
I find it hard to justify a CC 1-dip right now, since he's already having some trouble hitting things probably. We should focus on increasing viability of smack.

Greenish
2010-05-01, 05:40 PM
A one-level dip in Cloistered Cleric. You get the Knowledge domain free. Pick up the Knowledge Devotion feat (since Knowledge domain gives you all Knowledge skills as class skills so you don't have to play with shenanigans to get your skill mods up to insane levels), then pick up some Nightsticks to power Knowledge Devotion with.I have been under the impression that Knowledge Devotion doesn't have to be fed with turning attempts.

To use Nightsticks, you need Extra Turning feat, and if you're taking that, Law and Animal Devotion can both give you nifty options.

[Edit]: If he can retrain his ranger levels to rogue, he can start taking swashbuckler levels with Daring Outlaw for full BAB.

Doc Roc
2010-05-01, 05:41 PM
It does not need turn attempts, you are correct. It just wants high knowledge skills.

Kaskos
2010-05-01, 05:45 PM
Unfortunately i am about to hea doff.
GMT time zone and wor on a weekend kinda sucks.

But if you have any idea's you think will help keep my interest with a rogue please please do keep giving them.
Even if i dont use them all this time, i know i will end up using most of them in the future.

And a big thankyou to everyone helping so far - i will check up on this thread when i get home frmo work tomorrow.

Thanks again everyone :smallsmile:

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-01, 05:48 PM
I have been under the impression that Knowledge Devotion doesn't have to be fed with turning attempts.

To use Nightsticks, you need Extra Turning feat, and if you're taking that, Law and Animal Devotion can both give you nifty options.

[Edit]: If he can retrain his ranger levels to rogue, he can start taking swashbuckler levels with Daring Outlaw for full BAB.

I was under the impression that to use it more than once per day, you need to fuel it with turn attempts. I know the Travel Devotion does, and getting pounce for a precision-based TWF damage dealer is all kinds of spiffy.

Eldariel
2010-05-01, 05:50 PM
I was under the impression that to use it more than once per day, you need to fuel it with turn attempts. I know the Travel Devotion does, and getting pounce for a precision-based TWF damage dealer is all kinds of spiffy.

Knowledge Devotion is completely independent of Turning and Ex to boot. It's quite unique among the Devotion-feats (War-devotion is kinda similar tho). It never needs to be activated and it works automatically constantly. Closest analogy is Favored Enemy, except skill-based instead of class-based.

sofawall
2010-05-01, 05:52 PM
Partial BAB?

Greenish
2010-05-01, 05:53 PM
I was under the impression that to use it more than once per day, you need to fuel it with turn attempts. I know the Travel Devotion does, and getting pounce for a precision-based TWF damage dealer is all kinds of spiffy.It seems to be an exception to the devotion feats, and yeah, Travel Devotion is a must, I merely suggested Law and Animal Devotions as options for the third domain. Travel Devotion will last for the whole encounter, so it doesn't eat much of one's turning attempts, so with Extra Turning (not to mention Nightsticks) the attack/AC bonus from Law Devotion or Strength bonus/flight from animal devotion are viable options.

Curmudgeon
2010-05-01, 06:45 PM
And that is exactly why monks are considered weak.
Yes, but Monks don't have a choice; they're always in the same boat. This is a situational choice for a Rogue with Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight plus Spring Attack. You only need to go the Spring Attack route when you come up against the rare enemy with excellent Spot skills. The rest of the time you pound on them with full attacks while hiding, and deal out sneak attack damage all the while.

Doc Roc
2010-05-01, 06:52 PM
Any build that needs spring attack probably needs work, in my experience. I've never hit a situation where I didn't eventually regret using it.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-01, 06:58 PM
Any build that needs spring attack probably needs work, in my experience. I've never hit a situation where I didn't eventually regret using it.Flyby Attack, Ride-by Attack, and even Shot on the Run pwn it in every possible way.

Math_Mage
2010-05-01, 07:02 PM
The simplest rebuild would be to swap Rogue for Scout and go Swift Hunter. Very little changes.

Doc Roc
2010-05-01, 07:05 PM
And that would be very solid build, potentially, but you'd need trapfinding. Remind me, do scouts get trap-finding?

I know they lack UMD as a class skill, which is a blow.

Eldariel
2010-05-01, 07:09 PM
And that would be very solid build, potentially, but you'd need trapfinding. Remind me, do scouts get trap-finding?

Yes they do. Rangers can too with an ACF, but it comes with the default Scout chassis.

Math_Mage
2010-05-01, 07:14 PM
Also, Swift Hunters can UMD off the ranger spell list with or without the skill, so it doesn't matter as much. I mean, they'd get cooler stuff with the skill, but hey.

Greenish
2010-05-01, 07:19 PM
Also, Swift Hunters can UMD off the ranger spell list with or without the skill, so it doesn't matter as much. I mean, they'd get cooler stuff with the skill, but hey.Mystic Ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order can use a huge variety of wands without UMD.

Doc Roc
2010-05-01, 07:33 PM
Mystic Ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order can use a huge variety of wands without UMD.

A lot of good points, all, I think. I will ruminate on this.

Kaskos, do you think you could get me at least the build of the barbarian, and ideally of one of the clerics? That would help me a lot, because otherwise, things are going to progress to the point where you'll be playing a different game from them.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-02, 12:10 AM
A one level dip in Cloistered Cleric would also give instant access to a very wide range of useful toys you wouldn't need to UMD, including Divine Power, Heal, and other fun toys. With the right setup, a single level is all you really need to be able to be a backup healbot or Mr Fix-it, in case something focus-fires down one of the Clerics.

Getting Divine Power, in addition to Travel Devotion and Knowledge Devotion, would significantly increase your damage output, by giving additional iterative attacks, plus the str boost which is always a bonus.

And don't forget, you can always sneak attack with weapon-like spells... like the Inflict Wounds series... in case an opponent has too much AC to crack.

Doc Roc
2010-05-02, 12:15 AM
Divine power is a pretty compelling option, but wands of it are rather expensive. That said, it is something that is difficult to get cast on you by a pal, and it can make a huge difference in your net fighting potential.

Can someone run the numbers on price for a minor schema of divine power?

Curmudgeon
2010-05-02, 12:16 AM
Any build that needs spring attack probably needs work, in my experience. I've never hit a situation where I didn't eventually regret using it.
I don't think it's needed so much as just too cheap to pass up if you've already paid both the Dodge and Mobility prerequisites (to enter into Shadowdancer). As I said, it's just a safety option if you come up against a foe with an unexpectedly good Spot skill.

Claudius Maximus
2010-05-02, 12:17 AM
Can someone run the numbers on price for a minor schema of divine power?

11,200 gp.

Doc Roc
2010-05-02, 12:19 AM
I'd much rather go into crinti shadow marauder or teflammar shadowlord.

Curmudgeon
2010-05-02, 10:12 AM
I'd much rather go into crinti shadow marauder or teflammar shadowlord.
These strike me as odd and expensive choices for a Rogue character. The Crinti Shadow Marauder is a mounted combat prestige class, and that's an unusual combo for a base class that doesn't have Ride as a skill. The Teflammar Shadowlord requires the +1 LA Shadow-Walker template, plus it's strictly a regional PrC in Forgotten Realms.

Charlie Kemek
2010-05-02, 10:39 AM
I agree with Math_Mage. what about being a swift hunter? (take scout instead of rouge, and take swift hunter which allows your skirmish to stack with ranger levels, so you can do both)