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Project_Mayhem
2010-04-30, 09:01 AM
I'm thinking up concepts for an upcoming game of 3.5 at the moment. Something I thought might be fun to play is a human Barbarian/Warblade focusing on the Warblade side - the barb dip is mostly for the rage. The character would be a disciplined and tactical warrior who consciously made the decision to adapt a rage based fighting style.

So two questions: Firstly, can I use manoeuvres while I'm raging? I'm afb at the moment, and I'm not sure what the official ruling would be.

Secondly, does anybody have advice for making the build effective? The game should start at around lv. 6. Off the top of my head, I'd like to burn some feats on effectively improving rage, as I don;t see the character as having more than 1 or 2 levels in barb

Thanks in advance

Edit: I should add that I potentially have access to all splats. Probably not Dragon though

unre9istered
2010-04-30, 09:09 AM
You definitely wouldn't be able to use the concentration based maneuvers. Other than that...

Runestar
2010-04-30, 09:11 AM
You won't be able to use the concentration-based maneuvers, but the rest would be fair game.

Extra rage is a given, netting you 3 rages/day. I guess warblade1/barb2/warblade+3 as a base, letting you get a 3rd lv stance at 6th lv. You may want endurance and steadfast determination to boost your will saves, since moment of precise mind can no longer be relied on. You also get uncanny dodge, which is always welcome.

There is also mad foam rager (PHB2), sort of like a poor man's iron heart surge.

Caliphbubba
2010-04-30, 09:11 AM
So two questions: Firstly, can I use manoeuvres while I'm raging? I'm afb at the moment, and I'm not sure what the official ruling would be.

I don't think Raging stops you from using maneuvers, except ones that specifically say you need to make a skill check for a skill that is explicitly forbidden while Raging, like concentration and the diamond mind maneuvers.

Project_Mayhem
2010-04-30, 09:17 AM
OK, so I'm guessing Diamond Mind is out. I was thinking on focusing on Iron Heart and Tiger Claw in any case, so no serious problems there. I agree that Will is clearly going to be a weakness.

Incorrect
2010-04-30, 09:38 AM
A humble suggestion:
You could use Punishing Stance as a form of rage, +d6 damage -2 AC. Just roleplay this as raging and have another stance for your more deliberate fighting style. You wont get the barbarian bonuses, but your initiator level will be one higher, gaining new maneuvers a level earlier.

Otherwise focus on Iron Heart and Tiger Claw, they can be fluffed as both tactical and raging fighting styles.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-30, 09:39 AM
You could play a Horselord Barbarian variant: their rage improves Con and Dex instead of Con and Str, but they are allowed to use skills.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-04-30, 09:44 AM
Consider using Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) instead of the standard barbarian rage. That will get you an extra attack when you full attack, and it grants a bonus rather than a penalty to your AC. Use the Lion spiritual totem ACF from Complete Champion to trade Fast Movement for Pounce. The Wolf Totem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures ) variant will get you Improved Trip at Barbarian 2 in place of Uncanny Dodge, which allows you to take Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown).

Since you're starting at a decent level, say you visited the Otyugh Hole detailed in Complete Scoundrel to get Iron Will without spending a feat. It will cost you 3,000 gp, but it's definitely worth it.

Project_Mayhem
2010-04-30, 09:50 AM
I had thought of refluffing, but I'm happy to use the actual barbarian class. My group don't really know about optimising, so I don't need the highest possible manoeuvre levels to stay competitive.

And I looked at battle ecstasy, but I'm not sure that it's thematically what I'm looking for. I like the idea of this well trained sword-master who has decided that he's going to learn how to throw himself into an unstoppable frenzy, which is more of a rage thing I think. Also I'm not thinking the whole horse thing is relevant to the character.

Edit: Whereas Whirling Frenzy might well be what I'm looking for. Seems like a more elegant rage. Dunno about the pounce thing - I know it's strictly better than fast movement. I'll ask my DM. The Otyugh hole thing probably won't fly though. Custom world, with quite a bit of detail - hence the place probably won't exist

And why the heck is knock down a deity feat?

Eldariel
2010-04-30, 10:11 AM
Pounce from Barbarian is great! And I'd definitely look at the few non-Concentration Diamond Mind maneuvers; Bounding Assault is absolute king with Pounce, Emerald Razor is a nice Power Attack dump and Moment of Alacrity is like cheating in the right circumstances. And Stance of Alacrity is one of the best stances in the book and Quicksilver Motion & Time Stands Still rock.

Swooper
2010-04-30, 10:15 AM
And why the heck is knock down a deity feat?
It isn't, it's a general feat that for some reason got printed in Deities and Demigods. Probably because some designer thought of it and it got thrown into the next thing they printed. :smallsigh:

Project_Mayhem
2010-04-30, 10:20 AM
Oh sorry - I might have conveyed what I meant poorly. I know that pounce is awesome. I'm worried that it might end up being overpowered. I'm leaving it as a maybe for that reason.

Person_Man
2010-04-30, 10:21 AM
Fast Movement can be bought with boots. Pounce can be gained from maneuvers or faked with Standard Action Strikes. Rage is just +4 Str +4 Con +2 Will -2 AC unless you keep up with Barbarian or head into a Barbarian PrC, which would utterly nerf your blade magic progression. So I would say that you're a lot better off as a pure Warblade, and just roleplay being angry or feral or whatever.

Project_Mayhem
2010-04-30, 10:37 AM
As I said, I am aware that what I'm doing will be weaker than straight warblade. The barb levels are mainly because I stubbornly want them. :smallbiggrin:

Eldariel
2010-04-30, 10:38 AM
Oh sorry - I might have conveyed what I meant poorly. I know that pounce is awesome. I'm worried that it might end up being overpowered. I'm leaving it as a maybe for that reason.

Well, given that much of your power comes from Standard Action Strikes anyways, as long as you don't focus on Charging (skip Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, etc.), it shouldn't be a problem. Just one tool in your bag of tricks; doublemove and full attack!

Project_Mayhem
2010-04-30, 10:47 AM
Fair point. Just got a question about Whirling Frenzy - does it still have the -2 to AC (so +0 with the dodge bonus)? It seems like it shouldn't, but the wording implies that other than the bonuses everything else is the same as rage

Starbuck_II
2010-04-30, 10:59 AM
Fair point. Just got a question about Whirling Frenzy - does it still have the -2 to AC (so +0 with the dodge bonus)? It seems like it shouldn't, but the wording implies that other than the bonuses everything else is the same as rage

No, it implies the bonuses are different. That would be weird.


A barbarian with this variant form of rage doesn't gain the normal bonuses when he enters a rage. Instead, when a barbarian with whirling frenzy enters a rage, he temporarily gains a +4 bonus to Strength and a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class and on Reflex saves. While in a whirling frenzy, the barbarian may make one extra attack in a round at his highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the barbarian might make before his next action.

Whirling frenzy is otherwise identical to the standard barbarian rage in all other ways. At 11th level (when a standard barbarian gains greater rage), the Strength bonus increases to +6, and the dodge bonus to Armor Class and on Reflex saves increases to +3. At 20th level (when a standard barbarian gains mighty rage), the Strength bonus increases to +8, and the dodge bonus to Armor Class and on Reflex saves increases to +4.

A barbarian using this variant doesn't gain indomitable will at 14th level. Instead, he gains evasion, but only while in a whirling frenzy.

A character can't use whirling frenzy at the same time that he uses any other form of rage (or similar ability).

Project_Mayhem
2010-04-30, 12:58 PM
OK, so this is what I've got at the moment:

Human Warblade 1/ Barbarian 2/ Warblade 3

1: Power Attack, Adaptive Style
2: ACF: Whirling Frenzy, ACF: Lion Spiritual totem (pounce)
3: ACF: Wolf Totem (improved trip), Extra Rage
6: Knock Down

Stances: Hunter's Sense, Absolute Steel

Manoeuvres
1: Steel Wind, Wolf Fang Strike
2: Rabid Wolf Strike, Disarming Strike
3: Iron Heart Surge

Project_Mayhem
2010-04-30, 05:41 PM
... Bump for constructive criticism?

EvilJoe15
2010-04-30, 05:46 PM
You don't need Barbarian 2, a 1 level dip is enough. My advice would be to continue warblade until you reach +7 BAB, then take 1 level of bear warrior, then two levels of blood claw master. Then continue as you see fit.

Runestar
2010-04-30, 05:57 PM
You don't need Barbarian 2, a 1 level dip is enough. My advice would be to continue warblade until you reach +7 BAB, then take 1 level of bear warrior, then two levels of blood claw master. Then continue as you see fit.

Barb2 gives +1 IL, so there is no harm in taking it. Alternatively, you can consider replacing the 2nd lv of barb with a lv of dragon shaman (for the auras) or crusader (for more maneuvers).

I don't see the point of improved trip, though I am operating on the assumption it does not work with knockdown (since you trip as a free action, so improved trip gives nothing back).

I am not sure about pounce either. I suppose it is a great way to close in (as you now have 2 attacks), though it does not mesh well with your strikes.

Wolf fang strike? Are you dual-wielding? I don't see TWFing anywhere. You may want to take emerald razor instead (but qualifying for it...?), touch attacks mesh great with power attack. Maybe replace hunter's sense with punishing stance?

Pluto
2010-04-30, 06:34 PM
I don't see the point of improved trip
...
Wolf fang strike?

Check Prerequisites on Knockdown and Hunter's Sense.

edit: Actually, scratch that.

You're right about Wolf Fang Strike. Am I missing a reason I'm missing for that to that still be there? That probably should be the first maneuver to trade away.

For feedback, you look like you've got a pretty nice setup, but with Whirling Frenzy and Pounce, you might want to take some of the emphasis off your strikes and put a bit more into defenses. I'd replace Rabid Wolf Strike with Wall of Blades.

Memplejemple
2010-04-30, 08:12 PM
Oh sorry - I might have conveyed what I meant poorly. I know that pounce is awesome. I'm worried that it might end up being overpowered. I'm leaving it as a maybe for that reason.

Good instincts. Rage plus maneuvers is already a very potent combination.

Keld Denar
2010-04-30, 08:18 PM
Another option instead of Barb2 would be Barb1/Fighter1. This would lose you 1 HP and 2 SP on average, but would allow you to pick any one bonus feat instead of only the ones that totem barbarians can grant you.

And Knockdown was reprinted. Origionally in Sword and Fist, there was errata that stated that an attack that triggers a trip with Knockdown can't result in a follow up attack if that trip is successful. The feat essentially moves the trip attack to after the attack, instead of before. The errata wasn't copied into Dieties and Demigods, which is dumb, and no errata was released for the 3.5 version of it. Do note that your DM might freak out if every attack you make essentially triggers another attack, so you would probably be wisest to follow the S&F errata.

Project_Mayhem
2010-05-01, 04:57 AM
OK, in order:

@EvilJoe15 - Te problem with bloodclaw master would be that the last character I played with this DM was a shifter straight barb. While I do want to use the barbarian dip (I just like em is all), I'm trying to take the character in another direction

@ Runestar - similarly, I don't think Crusader or DS would fit with the character. W/ regards to improved trip, yes I need that if I want Knock down. And big whoops about Wolf fang strike. Thought I needed it for hunter stance.

@ Pluto - I might have missed the point, but If I ditch RWS then I have no damaging strikes. Is that workable? Do I need them to be effective. I suppose with Power attack/ Great Sword maybe not. I'll be attacking twice on a standard action with +19 dam from PA and Str in any case

@Keld Denar - So wait - I was assuming that the feats would allow me to Attack (using strike if I want), Do 10 damage (easy), trip, and Attack again. That was errated to not be the case?

In general I'm definitely going to swap out Wolf Fang Strike for Steely Strike (should help PA), and I'm looking at Hunters Stance to Punishing Stance. I just like Hunters Stance I guess.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-05-01, 05:34 AM
Indeed, Knock-Down just switches it around the other way. Try to trip, if successful you get an attack with Improved Trip, whereas with Knock-Down you attack, if successful you get to trip them. If you want to double-up on your attacks, use a Ritiik, an exotic weapon from Frostburn, along with Improved Trip. That would actually give you three hits per attack: The initial attack, the weapon gives you a trip attempt and Improved Trip gives you an attack roll to deal damage, and then when you pull the weapon out of them you deal automatic damage equal to the initial hit. The weapon specifies that it's a full round action to attempt to remove it without causing the additional damage. Simply yanking it out and intentionally causing further injury has no action type specified, though it could easily be considered part of the attack that put it there, just like withdrawing any other weapon after an attack. It may be a bit over the top, though.

Project_Mayhem
2010-05-01, 05:49 AM
Yeah - One, I don't think my DM has ever heard of Frostburn, and Two, the character is fighting with a Miao dao (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miao_dao)

Thanks though

Greenish
2010-05-01, 05:56 AM
Yeah - One, I don't think my DM has ever heard of Frostburn, and Two, the character is fighting with a Miao dao (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miao_dao)Cool sword, how have you statted it? (I'm guessing falchion is a good fit.)

Project_Mayhem
2010-05-01, 05:59 AM
Hadn't thought of that; I was going greatsword originally. Hmmm - my plan was to fork out on a keen weapon. I reckon I might do better with a falchion then.

Cieyrin
2010-05-01, 03:37 PM
Hadn't thought of that; I was going greatsword originally. Hmmm - my plan was to fork out on a keen weapon. I reckon I might do better with a falchion then.

Why not go for the best of both worlds with a Great Falchion, though whether it's worth the feat to gain proficiency is another thing entirely. From Sandstorm, it's basically a Falchion that does Greataxe damage. Either that or the Jovar from the Planar Handbook, which is literally a Greatsword with Falchion crit range. I personally prefer the Great Falchion over the Jovar but I think quite a couple of the items in the Planar Handbook are cheaper knockoffs of better written items.

Project_Mayhem
2010-05-01, 04:00 PM
Is great falchion an exotic weapon prof? Cause thats a good buy for a warblade, what with the ability to switch weapon type isn't it?

Greenish
2010-05-01, 04:08 PM
Is great falchion an exotic weapon prof? Cause thats a good buy for a warblade, what with the ability to switch weapon type isn't it?It is, though slightly better base weapon damage probably isn't worth it (so you'd have it trained for something else).

And well, falchion is better than greatsword at higher levels when you got more damage to multiply*, but I was just going based on how the sword looks falchion-ey. :smallbiggrin:


*With warblade strikes, the point when falchion becomes flat out better might be much earlier.

lsfreak
2010-05-01, 04:44 PM
*With warblade strikes, the point when falchion becomes flat out better might be much earlier.

Only with a very few strikes. Most strikes are +xd6 damage, which aren't helped by crits at all. The Diamond Mind ones (Nightmare Blade chain and Insightful Strike) and Blood in the Water stance are about the only two that benefit more from higher crit chance than another strike.

Cieyrin
2010-05-01, 05:05 PM
It is, though slightly better base weapon damage probably isn't worth it (so you'd have it trained for something else).

IDK, i consider 2d4 to 1d12 better than most Exotic weapon damage increases, which are usually d8 to d10 or some such nonsense. 1.5 avg damage is slightly better than 1, neh? :smalltongue:

Greenish
2010-05-01, 05:14 PM
IDK, i consider 2d4 to 1d12 better than most Exotic weapon damage increases, which are usually d8 to d10 or some such nonsense. 1.5 avg damage is slightly better than 1, neh? :smalltongue:True enough, it's better than many exotic weapons. :smallcool:

Still strictly worse than Weapon Specialization, which nicely demonstrates how poor most exotic weapons are.

[Edit]: For edification of those interested, a list of handy exotic weapons can be found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633).

Cieyrin
2010-05-01, 05:18 PM
True enough, it's better than many exotic weapons. :smallcool:

Still strictly worse than Weapon Specialization, which nicely demonstrates how poor most exotic weapons are.

That is indeed quite humbling...

Ah well, Fullblades are at least cool enough to match up with Weapon Spec for average damage.

Eldariel
2010-05-01, 05:22 PM
That is indeed quite humbling...

Ah well, Fullblades are at least cool enough to match up with Weapon Spec for average damage.

Much more, actually. 'cause you don't use Fullblade if you can only wield Medium Weapons. What you really want is a Gargantuan Fullblade (Gold/Whatever Large Fullblade wielded with Strongarm Bracers under Enlarge Person) to start actually getting returns from the size increases. 6d8 is already a bit more than 6d6 from Greatsword. Well, whole 6 points. But still. Better than 2.

Cieyrin
2010-05-02, 03:33 PM
Much more, actually. 'cause you don't use Fullblade if you can only wield Medium Weapons. What you really want is a Gargantuan Fullblade (Gold/Whatever Large Fullblade wielded with Strongarm Bracers under Enlarge Person) to start actually getting returns from the size increases. 6d8 is already a bit more than 6d6 from Greatsword. Well, whole 6 points. But still. Better than 2.

That's a different beast, entirely, but very true. BFS is certainly better than Weapon Spec.

Escheton
2010-05-02, 03:47 PM
how do you wield that besides on open plains?

sure, the damage is great...but does it fit into the room?

Cieyrin
2010-05-02, 04:01 PM
how do you wield that besides on open plains?

sure, the damage is great...but does it fit into the room?

If we're that worried about it, you could drop the damage a size and make it out of adamantine to cut through any pesky walls. Sure, there'll be collateral damage but that's just good fun, neh? :smallbiggrin:

Escheton
2010-05-02, 04:23 PM
If we're that worried about it, you could drop the damage a size and make it out of adamantine to cut through any pesky walls. Sure, there'll be collateral damage but that's just good fun, neh? :smallbiggrin:

+1 to that

Zergrusheddie
2010-05-02, 04:25 PM
If you go with the Wolf Totem Variant, you get free Improved Trip at Barbarian level 2. It wouldn't slow down your initiator level but it would slow down when you get better bonuses.

Using a Spiked Chain wouldn't be horrible. Take the feat Knockdown and you can activate a maneuver, deal damage, get a free trip, and then get a free attack. Whirling Frenzy variant might be nice with some of the Tiger Claw maneuvers that grant you extra swings; with Haste you would get 3 attacks at your highest attack bonus -2.

After you get Iron Heart Surge, feel free to Rage every combat at the beginning without fear that you end up hurting yourself. If the combat last longer than anticipated, IHS away the fatigue and Rage again.

It's a decent combo, but I am not entirely sure if it would be better than just a straight Warblade. Maybe not as powerful because you get maneuvers slower but Fast Movement and Rage might be worth it.

Project_Mayhem
2010-05-02, 04:27 PM
Where's fullblade from?

Also, there's only so far you can go with sword size before you start to look ridiculous (coughFFVIIcough)

Edit: @ /\ Yeah, if you look at the build I posted, I took every single option you suggested :smallbiggrin:

Except the spiked chain. Partly because it has a rather cheesy rep. Mainly because it's so ridiculously stupid.

Eldariel
2010-05-02, 04:54 PM
Where's fullblade from?

Arms & Equipment Guide. Great book, even if originally 3.0. I use it in every damn one of my games, 'cause the PHB list is so short. That and Dragon are singlehandedly responsible for statting up half the mundane stuff I use.


Also, there's only so far you can go with sword size before you start to look ridiculous (coughFFVIIcough)

When you think about it, it's not that ridiculous. It's a Huge Fullblade (Gargantuan Bastard Sword wieldable without penalties, effectively) on a Large character dealing Gargantuan damage due to being heavy.

Project_Mayhem
2010-05-02, 04:56 PM
I missed the large bit - I'll let you off this time.:smallbiggrin:

Eldariel
2010-05-02, 05:00 PM
I missed the large bit - I'll let you off this time.:smallbiggrin:

Btw, technically 2d10 20/x2 weapon would be a an alright Exotic Weapon by the guidelines too (it's one increase on 2d8 losing one in crit range and thus has the same "weapon point buy" as other Exotic Weapons). That would be worth it (for anything less than over 6 Monk-levels) given it goes straight to 4d8 on first size increase for vast increases. Imagine 6d8 base weapon damage on level 1; you don't even need Str and all that takes is EWP: MythicalWeapon, EWP: Heavy Weapon and Enlarge Person. Finesse it for good measure and hilarity :smallbiggrin:

Cieyrin
2010-05-03, 05:46 PM
Btw, technically 2d10 20/x2 weapon would be a an alright Exotic Weapon by the guidelines too (it's one increase on 2d8 losing one in crit range and thus has the same "weapon point buy" as other Exotic Weapons). That would be worth it (for anything less than over 6 Monk-levels) given it goes straight to 4d8 on first size increase for vast increases. Imagine 6d8 base weapon damage on level 1; you don't even need Str and all that takes is EWP: MythicalWeapon, EWP: Heavy Weapon and Enlarge Person. Finesse it for good measure and hilarity :smallbiggrin:

2d10 weapon is like Diablo RPG, where there are in fact 2d10 weapons that are D&D 3rd compatible. :smallbiggrin: