Good And Evil In The Playground

[ArlEammon]

I was thinking that you guys could maybe, come up with a list of the worst 5-20 villains in real life, and the top 5-20 people in life. (They must be dead already) Then, explain your reasoning.
Uh, IF you mention someone that might get the topic closed or in trouble, instead of elaborating why you think they are one of the worst guys around, just list them and don't explain why.

Obviously, mentioning someone controversial who is both liked and disliked by different sides might get the thread in trouble, as I mentioned, but we can agree to disagree, like we are doing in the Top 5 Philosophers Thread, hopefully.

[Mando Knight]

Other than He Whose Stache Was Stolen From Chaplin, is there anyone we can definitely agree was a villain?

[Ravens_cry]

I don't think this could be discussed within the boundaries of the Rules of the Playground, as fun as it is.
But if I have to throw in one ,I would have to say ,from what I know of him, Pol Pot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pol_Pot).

[Spiryt]

Other than He Whose Stache Was Stolen From Chaplin, is there anyone we can definitely agree was a villain?

Why shouldn't we?

Stalin, Pol Pot, Dzierżyński, Che, concentration camps officers, Lenin.

And those are only few politics from 20th century, on which I won't dwell because of those politics rules.

Then are mass murderers, cannibals and other freaks that tortured people, whose name I always forget.

From Zodiac to Vampire of Silesia.

Tons of "villains".

[druid91]

None of them tried to explode the earth into nothingness. As for me to avoid politics I will be going WAY far back.

Vlad the impaler
The Ottoman Empire
Pretty much every noble in the dark ages.

[Kaiser Omnik]

I think this will definitely go into Forbidden Topics territory. People will inevitably disagree and explain their positions with real world examples (even if we keep discussing only the "most good" people, just look at the Philosophers thread). Simply defining good and evil will probably result in heated arguments, as Alignement discussions in the Roleplaying forum show.

Sorry.


None of them tried to explode the earth into nothingness. As for me to avoid politics I will be going WAY far back.

Vlad the impaler
The Ottoman Empire
Pretty much every noble in the dark ages.

See this post? I disagree especially with the second one and I would find it hard to discuss the "evils" of an empire without discussing politics...yes, including actual politics.

[UnChosenOne]

I think that this thread will be locked in few hours. You know, political and too serious topic, that will turn to flamewar.

[Eddums]

Che

See, this right here is why this isn't going to fly. I disagree, let's just leave it at that. I'll give you the others though.


Pretty much every noble in the dark ages.
Nah. Not really. That's media and propaganda villianisation at it's finest.

[Kaiser Omnik]

Anyway, let's all agree that the best villains are the mustache-twirling kind, as another poster said! :smallbiggrin:

[Spiryt]

I guess I must agree about flamewar.

I kinda knew someone was going to argue about Che. :smallbiggrin: Not going to bite it either.


Only weird thing is this :

"Ottoman Empire" and "nobles".
So what, everyone of solid millions of people over at least 500 years "villains"? Really?
:smallconfused:

[Eddums]

I kinda knew someone was going to argue about Che. :smallbiggrin: Not going to bite it either.

:smalltongue:
Yeah, ditto. Wouldn't touch it with a standard issue 10ft pole. Not on here, in any event.

[Ravens_cry]

Anyway, let's all agree that the best villains are the mustache-twirling kind, as another poster said! :smallbiggrin:
Then this must be the evillest man in history. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AZlE7TiwSM)

[druid91]

Some nobles in the dark ages would "Collect taxes" by showing up at your door with a group of armored soldiers and Either killing you and taking what they want or you giving them what they want. Though I saw this on the history channel and am not sure so I could be wrong.

As for the Ottoman Empire, a nation I know only for its legendary torture dungeons is to be assumed evil, or at the very least cruel/ unpleasant. that said I could be wrong on this as well.
Edit: no I mean the administrators/ guys in charge, not the random citizens

Also yes the most evil are the mustache twirling kind.:smallbiggrin:

[Spiryt]

Some nobles in the dark ages would "Collect taxes" by showing up at your door with a group of armored soldiers and Either killing you and taking what they want or you giving them what they want. Though I saw this on the history channel and am not sure so I could be wrong.

As for the Ottoman Empire, a nation I know only for its legendary torture dungeons is to be assumed evil, or at the very least cruel/ unpleasant. that said I could be wrong on this as well.
Edit: no I mean the administrators/ guys in charge, not the random citizens

Also yes the most evil are the mustache twirling kind.:smallbiggrin:

Sir, as I said, you are talking about millions of people and many years.

Secondly, what's wrong about it?

If you refuse to pay taxes today, you're screwed too, but in more "civilised" way. That kinda sucks, but anarchy sucks even more.

Also, history channels usually are not very good idea.

Moreover, if you think that situation of peasant in medieval was bad, check times of absolute monarchies in Europe in later centuries (XVI - XVII).

Peasant was property then in France, for example.

In actual "Dark Ages", there were not so many people that could collect taxes, and such stuff. Because whole Europe was still fragmented and "barbaric". Laws of small societes (villages and all) were of course usually very harsh too, but when live's harsh, human is too.

In short, don't learn stuff from TV, generally.

[Raiki]

Hmm. What a fortuitous time for my modem to crash. I worked for about 30 minutes on a response that very likely would have caused far too much trouble.

After reading some of the things posted while I was typing, about the only one I still feel comfortable mentioning is Walt Disney. Quite possibly the most vile man to have ever lived.

Oh, and for the good side: Gandhi. Just sayin'.

~R~

[Spiryt]

I heard that Walt Disney was quite horrible guy (although I wont probably compare him to politicians and murderers), but my knowledge is abysmal.

Care to share any sources about him? I'm interested.

[druid91]

Hmm. What a fortuitous time for my modem to crash. I worked for about 30 minutes on a response that very likely would have caused far too much trouble.

After reading some of the things posted while I was typing, about the only one I still feel comfortable mentioning is Walt Disney. Quite possibly the most vile man to have ever lived.

Oh, and for the good side: Gandhi. Just sayin'.

~R~

What did Walt disney do? besides aid in the animation age ghetto?

[Kaiser Omnik]

The Ottoman Empire was known for many other things. And as horrible as it is, torture was very widespread in the world at that time (and not only at that time...but I cannot discuss this further as per the forum rules).

Let's start a new thread if there are viable historical topics mentionned here that we would like to discuss further.

[Zen Monkey]

There are so many wrong posts here already. Clearly, beard and moustache have very little to do with moral perspective. Santa Claus always has a pretty good beard and twirl-able moustache, and we can all agree that he's pretty amicable. Of course, Karl Marx often looks like a really angry mall Santa, so I'm sure some sort of odd theory could be spawned by that.

Of course, I have a shaved head and a goatee, so I'm clearly a cartoon villain. But then, maybe I'm a professional wrestler because I also work out a lot, and those come in both hero and villain varieties. Hmm, more to come on moustache morality, as this requires more study than I had planned.

(I'll be kind and not link the many tv tropes that came to mind)

[Raiki]

What did Walt disney do? besides aid in the animation age ghetto?

To be honest, that was kind of a bad joke on my part. There are a lot of rumors floating around about Disney being a horrible racist and anti-semite. Unfortunately, 60 years later, it's very hard to tell what was true, and what was just propaganda spread by the animators union (who Disney shanked pretty hard, so at the very least, he was a real jerk when it came to organized labor).

My favorite rumor came from an episode of either Family Guy or Futurama, I honestly forget which, that showed him as cryogenically frozen "until all the %&#$ jews are gone"*.

*Direct-ish quote from the TV show, I do not support anti-semitism or freezing yourself to avoid interacting with any other social group. :smallbiggrin:

~R~

[Spiryt]

As for Good guys, there are many nice choices, I guess.
Save Gandhi, and other mentioned, I guess I can for example throw in this guy (http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Jan_Bytnar).

Was opposing Nazi occupation in Poland, which occupation, as people know was some rather proverbially horrid stuff.

He was arrested by SS and trough 3 days exposed to such nice actions as testicles crushing. :smalleek:, but he didn't tell anything.

Heroic in quite classic way, IMHO.

[Mando Knight]

What did Walt disney do? besides aid in the animation age ghetto?

He was supposedly anti-Semitic, and people now tend to hate him for it. It was actually a somewhat popular opinion back then...

[mucat]

And those are only few politics from 20th century, on which I won't dwell because of those politics rules.
Then why mention them at all, unless your entire point was that this topic cannot be discussed within forum rules?

And to be fair, it really is a hard topic to discuss without crossing the line. If you name the people who have affected the world the most, for good or ill, you inevitably touch on real-world politics (and possibly on real-world religion.)

Of course, it's possible to just list the "Best/Worst people I can name without implying my real-world political viewpoint.".

In which case...

The Good:
Harriet Tubman (Total badass and hero of the Underground Railroad)
Jonas Salk (Inventor of the polio vaccine, and of the methods that would lead to countless other medical advances.)

Albert Einstein (Not only one of the best scientists ever, but an all-round admirable human being.)

Marie Curie (because now my mind is on badass courageous scientists, so I keep thinking of more I have to add to the list. Did impressive humanitarian work as well during World War I.)

Isaac Asimov (great writer, great thinker, and again, an all-out mensch.)

Edmund Hilary (won his fame as a climber, used his fame to turn around the lives of the Sherpa communities that had made his triumph possible.)

Theodor Seuss Geisel: Doctor frikkin' Seuss. Enough said.


The Bad and the Ugly:
(Yes, we could fill this list with serial killers and criminals, but their evil is way too obvious to be worth listing. And we could each give our personal ****list of despised political figures, but not on the Giant's dime we can't. So here are some thoroughly despicable bastards who sadly never saw the inside of a prison, and can be roundly booed by folks anywhere on the political spectrum...)

Walter Freeman: American psychiatrist who pioneered the technique, and spearheaded the widespread use of, the prefrontal lobotomy.

Raymond Vonderlehr: As long as we're listing evil doctors, can't forget the guy who masterminded the Tuskeegee Syphilis Experiment. Honorable mention to Eunice Rivers, John Heller ("They were subjects, not patients"), and everyone else who helped run the study over the decades it went on.

Max Blanck and Isaac Harris, owners of the Triangle Shirtwaist Company.

Isaac Newton: I hate to say it, because damn was he smart...but this guy is the dark reflection of Einstein. Great scientist, absolutely petty and vindictive human being, who got way too much satisfaction out of sabotaging the reputations of his rivals.

Thomas Edison: "If you can't invent it, steal it, then trash the name of the guy you stole it from."

[Mystic Muse]

From what I can tell of them the Mongols were pretty dang evil.

There are a lot of good people too and I prefer to focus on them.

Also, what's the triangle shirtwaist company?

[TSGames]

EVIL
A ton of people, just to list a few:
Alister Crowley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley) who attained the moniker "the most evil man alive"...before he died, of course(he also inspired a lot of rock).
Rasputin
Stalin
Big H(you know who mean)

I need to stop there, because the next 3 people I'd list would certainly break forum rules....

GOOD
Jesus
Blessed Mother Teresa
Blessed Pope John Paul II

I should probably stop there....mostly because I can't really think of three(non-obscure) people who can stand up as pinnacles of good on par with any of those three.

[Mystic Muse]

EVIL

Rasputin


Wait, Why is this guy evil?

I don't really know a lot about the guy. That's why I'm asking. Also, the guy from the Anastasia animated movie doesn't count.:smalltongue:

[Riffington]

Raymond Vonderlehr: As long as we're listing evil doctors, can't forget the guy who masterminded the Tuskeegee Syphilis Experiment.

Vonderlehr quit when penicillin became available (and long before it was clear how well it worked on syphilis). Prior to the advent of penicillin, the treatments for syphilis were so toxic and ineffective that it was unclear whether they were better than no treatment. While he was involved, the experiment was sketchy; it was only after his departure that it became evil.




Also, what's the triangle shirtwaist company?

A factory that was built with insufficient fire exits, many of which were closed during the day. As a result it was unsafe (though the owners were present during the fire, and thus incurred the same risks as their workers; this makes their evil fairly mild)

Edit: they didn't lock any doors during the fire, just before. They were idiots and reckless, but no worse than the average drunk driver.

[druid91]

From what I can tell of them the Mongols were pretty dang evil.

There are a lot of good people too and I prefer to focus on them.

Also, what's the triangle shirtwaist company?

IT was a company that locked the doors so its employees couldn't steal the products, and Refused to put fire safety ladders on the side of the building, A fire happened, lots of people died, all because these idiots ran away and left the workers locked in, (I think, my memories of them from 10-th grade history are rather fuzzy)

And rasputin was awesome, he was curing a kid of a disease that would have made him bleed to death, then he was subjected to things that should have killed him multiple times and only died from drowning after they through the "body" in the river.

[Spiryt]

Then why mention them at all, unless your entire point was that this topic cannot be discussed within forum rules?

And to be fair, it really is a hard topic to discuss without crossing the line. If you name the people who have affected the world the most, for good or ill, you inevitably touch on real-world politics (and possibly on real-world religion.)

Of course, it's possible to just list the "Best/Worst people I can name without implying my real-world political viewpoint.".


:smallconfused:

Because they were evil? Ok, Che is disscusable, as Eddums and I briefly mentioned, but the rest was doing completely hideous things, without almost any "exuses"

And thus they're mentioned, without getting into politics.

[Mystic Muse]

And rasputin was awesome, he was curing a kid of a disease that would have made him bleed to death, then he was subjected to things that should have killed him multiple times and only died from drowning after they through the "body" in the river.

going out with a bang (or you know, freezing and drowning to death) doesn't preclude you from being evil.:smalltongue:

I don't know if he actually is evil though. Don't know a lot about him. Other than how he died. (which is pretty awesome.)

There was a cracked.com article on that actually.

[Kaiser Omnik]

From what I can tell of them the Mongols were pretty dang evil.

There are a lot of good people too and I prefer to focus on them.

Also, what's the triangle shirtwaist company?

Oh, I'm sure Mongolians would be happy to know that you think all their ancestors were evil!

[Eddums]

I need to stop there, because the next 3 people I'd list would certainly break forum rules....




GOOD
Jesus
Blessed Mother Teresa
Blessed Pope John Paul II

I should probably stop there....mostly because I can't really think of three(non-obscure) people who can stand up as pinnacles of good on par with any of those three.

Wait.....what? :smalltongue: I'm fairly sure those three break forum rules just fine. The whole religion thing, you know.

[Spiryt]

I actually wonder how Kumis tastes like if we're talking about Mongols.

Anyone tried it?

[Riffington]

Oh, I'm sure Mongolians would be happy to know that you think all their ancestors were evil!

Unless you are from a small island, they're your ancestors too.

[Spiryt]

Unless you are from a small island, they're your ancestors too.

Hehe. :smallamused:

Brutal but true.

But that can be said about pretty much everyone in Europe in general, which was of course one of the reasons why whole Nazi ideology was completely silly.

[Kaiser Omnik]

Unless you are from a small island, they're your ancestors too.

I don't think everyone on Earth has mongolian ancestors. :smallconfused:

And Indo-Europeans =/ Mongolians, if that's what you mean. I'm pretty sure Kyuubi was referring to the Mongol Empire.

EDIT: And no, I don't think that having ancient mongolian ancestors would be a bad thing. I don't see how that would be "brutal". I am well aware that we all have "barbarians" in our family trees. :smallwink:

[druid91]

going out with a bang (or you know, freezing and drowning to death) doesn't preclude you from being evil.:smalltongue:

I don't know if he actually is evil though. Don't know a lot about him. Other than how he died. (which is pretty awesome.)

There was a cracked.com article on that actually.

Well I think the only reason he was killed was a mixture of the nobles fearing for their positions, and the belief that the czaress?/ queen figure was two-timing the king with him.

He made some creepy predictions though. But otherwise all I know that he did was treat the prince's sickness.

[Mystic Muse]

Oh, I'm sure Mongolians would be happy to know that you think all their ancestors were evil!

I don't know. Erasing Baghdad seems pretty evil to me. Didn't they also weaponize the black plague?

[Spiryt]

I don't think everyone on Earth has mongolian ancestors. :smallconfused:



It can be quite possible, at least in somehow symbolic margin.

Mongols were pretty much everywhere in East/South Europe and Asia, and then people who made contact with them made contact with other people in Africa, Asia, Americas, and so on.

I'm no expert though...

EDIT: And "brutal" was comment to the rape/slavery part, because well, Mongols were conquerors and pillagers. Maybe I'm a bad man, if that was my first connotation :smallfrown:

[Kaiser Omnik]

I don't know. Erasing Baghdad seems pretty evil to me. Didn't they also weaponize the black plague?

If you think that wars make a people evil, then maybe, yes. Again, this discussion is impossible because there is too much cultural bias.

And come on, they didn't invent biological warfare. And their own soldiers were infected with it. It's not like they produced a plague to kill their enemies. :smallsigh:

EDIT: Ok, I should really stop posting in this thread, too many risks of going against the forum rules.

[Riffington]

I don't think everyone on Earth has mongolian ancestors. :smallconfused:

And Indo-Europeans =/ Mongolians, if that's what you mean.

EDIT: And no, I don't see why having mongolian ancestors would be a bad thing.

There are people on Iceland, some Pacific Islanders, small pockets in rainforests, etc for whom this does not apply, but for anyone else:
Humans interbreed. A lot. If you go back far enough (say, 1000 CE), for any given person: that person is either the ancestor of everyone on Earth*, or nobody on Earth. Genghis may be a little past that date, but he was... shall we say... prolific. Add in other Mongol warriors, the fact that all Emperors of China were descended from Mongols, the number of Russians who were... let's just say you are probably descended both from Genghis Khan AND from another Mongol who wasn't him.

*except those tiny pockets here and there.

[Spiryt]

My surname is undoubtedly Czech one, even though my family were polish peasants as long ago as I can track.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: This thread is inherently political and rule-breaking. Also, let's not get into starting a bunch of Top 5 X threads.