Improving Caster Level Progression PrCs

[Angry Bob]

There are cool prestige classes, but less than half of them are "viable" as well as cool. Entropomancer? Pretty cool. Acolyte of Skin? Same. Master of the Unseen Hand? Master Transmogrifist? Awesome. Problem is, they trade away powerful abilities for mediocre but cool ones. Now, obviously for wizards, archivists, clerics and druids, losing a few caster levels here or there, unless you're pants-on-head retarded about it, just means you can end the world as a standard action instead of a free action. But sacrificing spell advancement and capacity for much narrower abilities is often just a bad idea in design and an unattractive option in play.

Often, the concept of the class is fine, but the high cost deters all but the strangest character concepts. What I want to do here is add caster levels to prestige classes until you think they're balanced. I did a thread like this before, but never got any definite numbers down.

tl;dr: This thread is for people to take a subpar casting/manifesting prestige class and give it more caster level progression, and see if it's balanced that way.

This thread isn't in homebrew, and therefore isn't the place to overhaul the class entirely, so if a class's problems extend beyond its stunted caster progression, take it elsewhere. I'm just trying to make the simplest changes right now.

What I've got so far:
Master of the Unseen Hand: Give 5/5 Casting.
Master Transmogrifist: Give 8/10 casting, skip at 4th and 8th.
Mindbender: Give 8/10, skip at 6th and 10th
Dirgesinger: Give 4/5, skip at 5th.

[SilverStar]

I give Psion Uncarnates and Metaminds extra ML; they only lose out at 4th level and 7th level.

I'm currently allowing a player in my PbP game to try PsiWarrior at full BAB. Hopefully that won't go over too badly.

[The Cat Goddess]

It has been stated that it was intended for some PrCs to be clearly more powerful than others and for some to be clearly weaker than others.

It has been stated that this is true for Feats, Spells... in fact, most aspects of AD&D 3.5.

The reasons why that were given are unsatisfying to me... I think the reason why was "sell more books". :smallfrown:

[BizzaroStormy]

You have to remember that there are some classes that make up for it like Mystic Theurge. With the proper build, you can have your first level in it at level 4 and have full divine and arcane progression for the next 10 levels.

[SilverStar]

When I see Mystic Theurge and Cerebremancer I want to barf.

When you have Ultimate Magus and Anima Mage... Yeah, ew.

[BizzaroStormy]

When I see Mystic Theurge and Cerebremancer I want to barf.

When you have Ultimate Magus and Anima Mage... Yeah, ew.

ok then, how about Geomancer? Same spell progression as Theurge but they get some awesome abilities as well.

[Godskook]

The reasons why that were given are unsatisfying to me... I think the reason why was "sell more books". :smallfrown:

The stated reason boiled down to "So that having a powerful character reflected on the player's skill".

[Starbuck_II]

ok then, how about Geomancer? Same spell progression as Theurge but they get some awesome abilities as well.

Geomancer is same progression?
But Geomancer is +1 Arcane or divine at each level (you have to choose).
Mystic is +1 to both every level.

[Pluto]

The first ones to come to mind:

I don't think 8/10 would be outrageous for Arcane Archer.

Witchborn Binder needs 10/10 to function as it was clearly intended.

Metamind's abilities cater naturally to the standard level 2-9 manifesting framework. And its actual abilities aren't out of line with most of those classes.

Seeker of the Song could use at least 6/10 casting progression to match the base Bard's abilities.


What I've got so far:
Master of the Unseen Hand: Give 5/5 Casting.
I really like the options this would give gish builds.

[SilverStar]

ok then, how about Geomancer? Same spell progression as Theurge but they get some awesome abilities as well.

Forgot that one. Some people pass because of drift; I think it's worth it, myself. That versatility ability is pretty nice.

Which is why MT/Cerebromancer suck.

[Doc Roc]

Actually, cerebremancer is a fantastically powerful class in my experience, and has been used in at least 5 tier 0.5 builds in the ToS, which I believe outranks almost everything else. It sees a lot of use with Ardent.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

When I see Mystic Theurge and Cerebremancer I want to barf.

When you have Ultimate Magus and Anima Mage... Yeah, ew.

Mystic Theurge and Cerebremancer are jank without early entry. With it, you're sacrificing one level of casting in one class for 11 levels of casting in another. For wizard/archivists and wizard/psions, this may be a fair trade, depending.

As for Ultimate Magus and Anima Mage, they're actually worth while do to freaking class abilities. With UM, you've got Practiced Spellcaster to cover the caster level loss on one said, which has been stated by WotC officials (customer service, I think it was) on multiple occasions to work, which may imply that that was the intent. RAW says it works either way, natch. With that, UM offers some interesting metamagic options, some nice boosts to caster level and potentially wider options for arcane casting, depending on entry.

For Anima Mage, you can net up to 6th level vestiges with only one level of casting lost fairly easily, gaining free metamagic in exchange, along with more spells and other options. At times, I almost view Anima Mage as an 11 level long PrC with one level of casting lost with a slew of class abilities found almost no where else, changeable with just 24 hours.

EDIT: Ninja'd by some pretty solid ancedotal evidence for support of Cerebremancer by Doc Roc.

[Akal Saris]

Complete Mage:
Make Holy Scourge 5/5 instead of 4/5. Nobody ever plays it.
Nightmare Spinner: Probably keep it 4/5, the class is actually quite good.
Ultimate Magus: Also fine at 7/10 and 10/10 advancement IMO.
Wild Soul: 10/10 instead of 9/10 would probably be all right. Strong class features but nothing broken here.

[PhoenixRivers]

Green Star Adept: 10/10 casting.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I only have one question:

If you do this, then what possible reason would you have to *NOT* PrC out? PrC's were supposed to be a specialty option, not a turbo-charged win-button.

[Zeful]

tl;dr: This thread is for people to take a subpar casting/manifesting prestige class and give it more caster level progression, and see if it's balanced that way.

Short Answer: No, they're not.

Long Answer: No they're not. Casters, by nature, are broken. Every rule that the game has, a caster can simply ignore through at least one spell. "Improving" casting PrCs further skews game balance and encounter design towards casters further, making pretty much all non-casting classes all but non-viable from a role-playing perspective. A better decision regarding caster PrCs would be to cap out PrC casting/manifesting progression at 1/2 and rounding down as appropriate.

[Kobold-Bard]

Personally I think most Caster PrCs are silly. PrCs are supposed to trade something for improvement in another area. They aren't supposed to be your base class, just better in every way.

The only thing that Wiz/Sor have to trade away is Caster Levels, and the only thing they have to gain is Class Features. Anything besides the Archmage (because it's literally the Big Daddy be-all end-all) that doesn't trade CL for features is overpowered and silly.

Now Master of the Unseen Hand should get 2 CL back because it's awesome, but not enough to lose 5 levels over.

[Angry Bob]

Long Answer: No they're not. Casters, by nature, are broken. Every rule that the game has, a caster can simply ignore through at least one spell. "Improving" casting PrCs further skews game balance and encounter design towards casters further, making pretty much all non-casting classes all but non-viable from a role-playing perspective. A better decision regarding caster PrCs would be to cap out PrC casting/manifesting progression at 1/2 and rounding down as appropriate.

Let me clarify: Casters, as written, are broken as hell, I recognize that. Even when they're played to not be broken, they're still inordinately powerful, and limiting yourself so the dude with the stick run by the first-timer with a tenuous grasp on optimizing can feel special is kind of a cop-out. If it's really that much of a problem in the games you actually play, just use a more stable system, like 4e.

This thread is to move caster PrCs that are not taken often to the level of PrCs that are by the simplest method possible, if it can be done that way for the class in question. It's not to push these PrCs over the edge(or at least, any more over the edge than casters already are), it's to make these PrCs an option an optimizer would honestly consider for the right build, not dismiss out of hand.


The only thing that Wiz/Sor have to trade away is Caster Levels, and the only thing they have to gain is Class Features. Anything besides the Archmage (because it's literally the Big Daddy be-all end-all) that doesn't trade CL for features is overpowered and silly.

At times, I think the profusion of caster Prestige classes is essentially to give class features to wizards and the like.

As I said, we're not giving full casting to every casting Prestige Class, just making certain classes not shoot the character in the foot(comparatively speaking).

[jiriku]

Incantatrix can live with 9/10 casting.

Acolyte of the Skin could go with 10/10 and the inability to cast spells with the [Good] descriptor (yes, I know there aren't many of them, but isn't it dorky to summon celestials after grafting a demon onto yourself?).

[The Cat Goddess]

Green Star Adept: 10/10 casting.

Green Star Adept is actually pretty nice for a Duskblade.

[Zeful]

This thread is to move caster PrCs that are not taken often to the level of PrCs that are by the simplest method possible, if it can be done that way for the class in question. It's not to push these PrCs over the edge(or at least, any more over the edge than casters already are), it's to make these PrCs an option an optimizer would honestly consider for the right build, not dismiss out of hand.
Increasing rather than decreasing PrC caster levels does two things. First: It furthers the concept that Casting classes don't actually need to give up anything in order to gain more specialized skills. This undermines the foundation of PrCs in general, which is trading skill at one thing for improved skill in another. All Casters lose is the abilities given by familiars at higher levels, if they have one to begin with.
Second: It undermines player choice with the following question: "If magic is so cheep, effective, and easy. Why are there other options at all?"


As I said, we're not giving full casting to every casting Prestige Class, just making certain classes not shoot the character in the foot(comparatively speaking).
So you're going to fixing the Monk, Fighter, Soulknife etc. You said this wasn't a homebrew thing.

[theos911]

My group's pallidan wanted to cast arcanely. We agreed on sorcerer and spellsword. I always thought the spellsword's 5/10 progression was bit low. Also I am the bane of "dippers", so i tried to eliminate the normal dip use of spellsword.

Normal is Full BAB High fort and will saves poor reflex saves and 5/10 progression.
As follows
1-ignore 10%
2-bonus feat
3-ignore 15%
4-Channel 3/day
5-ignore 20%
6-Channel 4/day
7-ignore 25%
8-channel 5/day
9-ignore 30%
10-multiple channel

My beefs with it- too much lost cl progression and two easy to take a 3 level dip to lose one cl and get a bonus feat and FULL BAB and 2 good saves and 15% ignore chance.I also think the % increase should be more streamlined and come a bit later.

My version- Full BAB still same saves 9/10 cl progression abilities come a bit later. Lvl 1 is lvl with no cl progression.

1-ignore 5%
2- ignore 10%
3-bonus feat
4-ignore 15%
5-channel 3/day
6-ignore 20%
7-channel 4/day
8-ignore 25%
9-channel 5/day]
10-ignore 30% and multiple channel

This is probably more than you expected. I understand it seems overpowered at first, but it now more effectively does it's job. It is better on casters and requires you take more lvls to get the same stuff a dipper would with standard version, but the overall effect is the same. Note-I raised the Knowledge arcana req from 6 ranks to 10 and the spell casting req from lvl 2 to lvl 3. This means you must be serious about taking the class but such seriousness and determination/study is better rewarded in my build. How do i justify this? Eldritch has FULL BAB with 9/10 caster lvl progression and a bonus feat. same as spellsword with same cl progression. Only thing is spellsword gets cool abilities. They have the same weapon proficiencies and same spell casting reqs needed. Difference is spellswords must be proficient with armor and have a bunch of know arcana. I believe this justifies the special abilities granted especially since they revolve around armor(hence the armor pro needed and wep pro needed for channeling) I'm open to input, but please no WHY WOULD GIVE SPELLSWORD BETTER CL PROGRESSION????, THEY ARE ALREADY TOO POWERFUL!!!! That doesn't really help me or anyone considering this altered class.

Basically it's more elite and requires more training but offers better abilities and casting for that said extra work.

[Kylarra]

In my opinion, more PrCs should've followed the model of the archmage and taken things away while still increasing casting.

[Pluto]

Increasing rather than decreasing PrC caster levels does two things. First: It furthers the concept that Casting classes don't actually need to give up anything in order to gain more specialized skills. This undermines the foundation of PrCs in general, which is trading skill at one thing for improved skill in another. All Casters lose is the abilities given by familiars at higher levels, if they have one to begin with.
Second: It undermines player choice with the following question: "If magic is so cheep, effective, and easy. Why are there other options at all?"

There's a sweet spot, though.

Classes like Mage of the Arcane Order, Loremaster, Radiant Servant, etc. should almost certainly lose CL (or have some other tradeoffs like the Alienist or Archmage) to be interesting decisions against straightclassing a build. I don't think anyone would argue with you there.

But classes like Master of the Unseen Hand, Hierophant and Mindspy just don't work without casting advancement. They aren't interesting options, except in specific instances which are probably too niche to deserve classes at all. (ie. Holy Word spamming Hierophants, Githyanki MotUHs.) The problem some PrC's have of being "no-brainers" applies here in the inverse: not taking levels in these classes is the clear superior choice.

The first category certainly could use some nerfs. The second category could use a boost of some sort.

[TheYoungKing]

The stated reason boiled down to "So that having a powerful character reflected on the player's skill".

By a peeved game designer shilling his own system.

Please.

[Angry Bob]

So you're going to fixing the Monk, Fighter, Soulknife etc. You said this wasn't a homebrew thing.

I did say it wasn't homebrew. When I said classes, I meant caster prestige classes. Monk, Fighter and Soulknife do need fixing of some sort, but this thread doesn't care about them.

[Lycanthromancer]

Make a comprehensive list of every casting PrC out there; determine which need boosting, which need nerfing, and which are fine. For accelerated casting PrCs (such as ur-priest and sublime chord), disallow their use with dual caster progression PrCs (although a 1-level dip may be permissible with a second caster progression PrC, at the DM's discretion).

Half-casting PrCs should probably be boosted slightly. Most full-casting PrCs should lose at least 1, probably 2, and possibly 3 CLs (and one should be at the very beginning to discourage dipping, though this may not be at PrC level 1, depending on if you give up CLs to get into the class or if the 1st level ability is...sub-par). Really powerful PrCs such as the swiftblade, obviously need to lose more than others. PrCs don't always need to lose a CL, but this is mostly if you have to sacrifice something important to get into the class (such as a class level), you sacrifice other things for class abilities (like spell slots), there are severe drawbacks to the class (such as, say, the alienist), or if the casting of the class is self-contained, with its own CL and spell list (such as the sublime chord).

Not perfect, but it might work.

[Akal Saris]

Look, here's the thing: there are already 5/5 or 10/10 prestige classes out there that give "something for nothing." Incantatrix being the most broken example, but I can't even count how many builds I've come up with that have levels in master specialist or abjurant champion (like, every gish build ever). For divine casters, you've got church inquisitor and contemplative as the basic "don't lose CLs but gain class features" PrCs.

So the situation right now is that most optimized players have a pool of 4-8 prestige classes that don't lose caster levels and give some nice class features. Meanwhile there's about a hundred PrCs that lose 1 or more CLs and are ignored or exist as a 1-4 level dip (Hellooo Mindbender and Fatespinner).

Will it break the game any more by giving Blood Magus full casting? Probably a little bit in a zero-sum view of the game, but in practice, probably not. Spells are what's really broken in PrCs, not class features. Except maybe niche cases like shadowcraft mage or dweomerkeeper, which are already full casting. Right now there are lots of PrCs out there that I would play, except that I hate losing CLs, because spell-casting is really worth too much to lose. Wild Soul, for example, is a well designed PrC, but I'll never play one in an optimized game.

Besides, what about PrCs for rangers, paladins, and bards that aren't full casting? Throw those guys a freaking bone at least! :smalltongue:

[Lycanthromancer]

Look, here's the thing: there are already 5/5 or 10/10 prestige classes out there that give "something for nothing." Incantatrix being the most broken example, but I can't even count how many builds I've come up with that have levels in master specialist or abjurant champion (like, every gish build ever). For divine casters, you've got church inquisitor and contemplative as the basic "don't lose CLs but gain class features" PrCs.

So the situation right now is that most optimized players have a pool of 4-8 prestige classes that don't lose caster levels and give some nice class features. Meanwhile there's about a hundred PrCs that lose 1 or more CLs and are ignored or exist as a 1-4 level dip (Hellooo Mindbender and Fatespinner).

Will it break the game any more by giving Blood Magus full casting? Probably a little bit in a zero-sum view of the game, but in practice, probably not. Spells are what's really broken in PrCs, not class features. Except maybe niche cases like shadowcraft mage or dweomerkeeper, which are already full casting. Right now there are lots of PrCs out there that I would play, except that I hate losing CLs, because spell-casting is really worth too much to lose. Wild Soul, for example, is a well designed PrC, but I'll never play one in an optimized game.

Besides, what about PrCs for rangers, paladins, and bards that aren't full casting? Throw those guys a freaking bone at least! :smalltongue:If all casting PrCs lost something for going into them (and I'm talking meaningful losses, not 'take a metamagic feat, 6 ranks in Concentration, and the ability to cast 3rd level spells,' which you'd take anyway), then it'd be an actual choice as to whether or not to PrC out (except for sorcerers, who gain nothing for staying as they are). It's like in psionics; all but like 2 PrCs force you to lose manifester levels, so going full-psion is an actually viable choice, rather than a non-choice.

Everything should be like that.

[theos911]

Besides, what about PrCs for rangers, paladins, and bards that aren't full casting? Throw those guys a freaking bone at least! :smalltongue:

Good Classes

Paladin-Fist of Raziel 9/10 BEAST SMITING (Emphasis on BEAST)

Bard- Lyric Thaumaturge 10/10 Nice Music boosts A few Free feats as abilities extra known spells and spells per day kinda make it like 11/10 not to mention the nice sonic damage booster

Ranger- Never worked with or optimized a ranger srry (closest was dex fighter)

Ya, this pretty much has nothing to do with anything

[Keld Denar]

Really powerful PrCs such as the swiftblade,

Woah woah woah, git your grubby mits off my Swiftblade. That class is awesometastic AND well balanced. 6/10 casting, 3/4 BAB, and a couple of meh prereq feats MORE than make up for the fact that its class abilities are good. Its a VERY well balanced PrC, and more PrCs should be modeled after it. It should be emulated, not nerfed!

[Lycanthromancer]

Woah woah woah, git your grubby mits off my Swiftblade. That class is awesometastic AND well balanced. 6/10 casting, 3/4 BAB, and a couple of meh prereq feats MORE than make up for the fact that its class abilities are good. Its a VERY well balanced PrC, and more PrCs should be modeled after it. It should be emulated, not nerfed!What I meant is that it should remain a 6/10. Sorry if I phrased it incorrectly.

[Keld Denar]

Ah, alls forgiven then! Have a nice day!

Really, the main balance point on the Swiftblade is that 10th level. Its REALLY good, but there are no ways short of some janky early entry tricks or Sublime Chord use to get it and 9th level spells. Yea, 9th level spells are strong, but so is the 10th level of Swiftblade. Thats the kind of hard decision a player should have to make when picking PrCs, IMO.

[Lapak]

If all casting PrCs lost something for going into them (and I'm talking meaningful losses, not 'take a metamagic feat, 6 ranks in Concentration, and the ability to cast 3rd level spells,' which you'd take anyway), then it'd be an actual choice as to whether or not to PrC out (except for sorcerers, who gain nothing for staying as they are). It's like in psionics; all but like 2 PrCs force you to lose manifester levels, so going full-psion is an actually viable choice, rather than a non-choice.

Everything should be like that.I strongly agree with this. I'd go so far as to say that any PrC that adds class features should lose at least one caster level, and most should lose a caster level upon entry, or something equally valuable. Wizards and Sorcerers have 'spellcasting' as their class feature and almost nothing else; giving that in addition to anything else makes going into a PrC a non-choice. Making the 10/10 casting PrCs 9/10, with the entry level being the dropped level, would both make more PrCs equally attractive and make going into them at all a significant choice.

[Private-Prinny]

Having every casting PrC almost automatically lose a caster level makes diverse spellcasters almost a non-choice. And even then, it wouldn't fix the problem. Arcane caster levels are such a huge deal that classes like Acolyte of the Skin and Green Star Adept are downright unplayable.

Classes like the aforementioned Swiftblade do an amazing job of balancing class features vs. caster levels. There are others, including a short list of things like Malconvoker, Dracolexi, Jade Phoenix Mage, Nightmare Spinner, and (arguably) Ultimate Magus.

There are other classes like Shadowcraft Mage, Incantatrix, and IoSFV that would still be very, very worth it, even with a lost caster level or two.

But then there are the minor offenders. Classes like Blood Magus and Wayfarer Guide, that don't offer anything amazing, but still get slammed with lost caster levels. Blood Magus requires two useless feats and your own death, but it still gets a CL penalty. Classes like that should be first on the list of things to fix.

[Keld Denar]

Wayfarer Guide is kinda cool, especially if you have a big party. Unfortunately, like most other PrCs that lose a CL, its a bad class that makes a good 1 level dip.

That 1 level dip is essentially a +4 CL bonus when casting teleport spells. Thats nothing to skoff at.

[Private-Prinny]

Wayfarer Guide is kinda cool, especially if you have a big party. Unfortunately, like most other PrCs that lose a CL, its a bad class that makes a good 1 level dip.

That 1 level dip is essentially a +4 CL bonus when casting teleport spells. Thats nothing to skoff at.

Exactly. It becomes a 1 level dip because the other two levels aren't even remotely worth taking. Also, where are you getting +4? You can bring along one extra person, so that's like a +1, and the range increase scales, so you can't really pin a CL value on it.

[Lycanthromancer]

Having every casting PrC almost automatically lose a caster level makes diverse spellcasters almost a non-choice. And even then, it wouldn't fix the problem. Arcane caster levels are such a huge deal that classes like Acolyte of the Skin and Green Star Adept are downright unplayable.Half-caster progression does indeed castrate a caster, although that's not what I'm suggesting. Every PrC needs to give up SOMETHING compared to a stock-standard base casting class, or there's no reason NOT to take it.

I mean, really, would anyone want to go full wizard 20 when they give up virtually nothing for PrCing out? Most full-casting prestige classes designed for wizards grant additional metamagic feats, meaning that the only thing a wizard loses out on whatsoever is familiar progression (except for hit points and a few other minor bonuses), and familiars are widely considered more of a liability than a boon anyway.

Even if you don't have to give up caster levels, there needs to be something that the character gives up. Or at least there should be. Lose spell slots, lose sanity, lose a caster level for the purposes of level-dependent effects (9d6 fireballs at level 12), lose points of Con permanently, etc.

It won't balance magic with non-magic, but it'd at least turn a non-choice into something resembling a choice.

[Private-Prinny]

Even if you don't have to give up caster levels, there needs to be something that the character gives up. Or at least there should be. Lose spell slots, lose sanity, lose a caster level for the purposes of level-dependent effects (9d6 fireballs at level 12), lose points of Con permanently, etc.

This is along the lines of what I think. Some classes are well worth the lost level, but sometimes it's just too much. I particularly like the way Archmage handles it (at least until Master Specialist removed the bad part of the feat requirements). Minor class features should be mitigated by minor losses. Powerful class features, and very powerful ones at that, should be mitigated by lost caster progression.

[Keld Denar]

Exactly. It becomes a 1 level dip because the other two levels aren't even remotely worth taking. Also, where are you getting +4? You can bring along one extra person, so that's like a +1, and the range increase scales, so you can't really pin a CL value on it.

My bad, its +3 to your effective CL.

The most important function of teleporting is how many people you can take with you, which is limited to 1 per 3 cast levels. Sure, you don't get the increased range, but if you are teleporting, its generally either far enough, or a multi-port trip. If you have a 5 person party (yourself +4), you need to be CL12 in order to take everyone. A 1 level dip in WG at 9 or so would allow you to get everyone a couple levels earlier.

[Akal Saris]

Just for curiosity, why do you have to give up something to enter a PrC? 4E paragon and epic tier characters lose nothing by taking a paragon class, and in fact it's assumed that they will take one.

d20 Modern works the same way - the base classes are all quite bland, in the assumption that you will PrC out as soon as possible.

Given that PrCs outnumber base classes by about 50 to 1, the assumption in 3.5 seems to be that characters should PrC. Why make it suck for them, especially for classes that already suck (hello monk PrCs with Toughness and Endurance requirements!)? If good class design is based around getting something new each level, then you should expect the sorcerer or cleric to PrC just because the base class is so boring to advance. It's not just power here - it's entertainment as well.

Personally, I'd like to see more prestige classes that lose nothing but only gain a little, like Ruathar or Paragnostic Apostle. That way the PC gets some new class features every level, but without really breaking the character.

And as a sidenote, I agree that the swiftblade is a terrific PrC. Lots of unique abilities, tons of flavor, dozens of possible builds and entries, very good cap at the end.

[PhoenixRivers]

Green Star Adept is actually pretty nice for a Duskblade.

I spit my soda when I read this.

It's a gish PrC with:

Poor BAB
Poor spellcasting progression
Class features that make you LESS able to exist on the front line (loss of con modifier)

There are no situations where this is mechanically on par with what you give up. In every case you take it, you lose more than you get.

[BizzaroStormy]

Geomancer is same progression?
But Geomancer is +1 Arcane or divine at each level (you have to choose).
Mystic is +1 to both every level.

There's an awesome trick i used. i took a level in MT for the dual progression, than use MT as my class for each geomancer level.

[Godskook]

There's an awesome trick i used. i took a level in MT for the dual progression, than use MT as my class for each geomancer level.

That's not a 'trick', that's 'cheating' by accident. Seriously, you can't 'progress' Mystic Theurge with any other class with 2 exceptions, and they're both explicit exceptions to the rules.

[Keld Denar]

Not legal. +Spellcaster classes only work with classes that have their own spellcasting progressions. If you are a wizard/fatespinner/archmage, your archmage levels aren't progressing your fatespinner casting, they are both advancing your wizard casting. Similarly you can't advance geomancer with mystic theurge or vis versa.

[TheMadLinguist]

I spit my soda when I read this.

It's a gish PrC with:

Poor BAB
Poor spellcasting progression
Class features that make you LESS able to exist on the front line (loss of con modifier)

There are no situations where this is mechanically on par with what you give up. In every case you take it, you lose more than you get.

Well, what you do is start off as a warforged, get incarnat construct cast on you, level up as a renegade mastermaker, get incarnate construct cast on you, and level up as a green star adept, getting incarnate construct cast on you. Then take +6 LA of various templates like phrenic or half-fey or something so you can pretend to have class features.

You'll need to get level drained at some point, but honestly, you can spare three levels of RM, or any number of levels of GSA

[PhoenixRivers]

Well, what you do is start off as a warforged, get incarnat construct cast on you, level up as a renegade mastermaker, get incarnate construct cast on you

... Frankly? You'd be better off if you ended it here, and just took the 4 LA.

[TheMadLinguist]

... Frankly? You'd be better off if you ended it here, and just took the 4 LA.

Yeah, but it's funnier this way.

http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/angry/smiley.gif Dang wizards keep casting that spell on me! I just wanted to be a construct, but they keep making me a real boy!

It's far more efficient just to level up to 10 in renegade mastermaker, incarnate construct, level drain, level up, et cetera, but whatever.

[Kobold-Bard]

Just for curiosity, why do you have to give up something to enter a PrC? 4E paragon and epic tier characters lose nothing by taking a paragon class, and in fact it's assumed that they will take one.

d20 Modern works the same way - the base classes are all quite bland, in the assumption that you will PrC out as soon as possible.

Given that PrCs outnumber base classes by about 50 to 1, the assumption in 3.5 seems to be that characters should PrC. Why make it suck for them, especially for classes that already suck (hello monk PrCs with Toughness and Endurance requirements!)? If good class design is based around getting something new each level, then you should expect the sorcerer or cleric to PrC just because the base class is so boring to advance. It's not just power here - it's entertainment as well.

Personally, I'd like to see more prestige classes that lose nothing but only gain a little, like Ruathar or Paragnostic Apostle. That way the PC gets some new class features every level, but without really breaking the character.

And as a sidenote, I agree that the swiftblade is a terrific PrC. Lots of unique abilities, tons of flavor, dozens of possible builds and entries, very good cap at the end.

3.5 PrCs aren't supposed to be automatic grabs. They are supposed to show the character surrendering skill of one thing to gain mastery of another. They're supposed to be an option, not "the base class, just better". Sticking as a Wizard 20 is supposed to be a viable option compared with a Wizard who PrC'd out. Thing is the only things Arcane casters have to give up is Familiar progression (which is junk anyway), Wizards have a few Feats, and their Caster Levels. So in order to the gain unique abilities offered by PrCs the only thing they can really be seen to give up is Caster Levels.

I admit though I like Lycanthropomancer's idea (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8407977&postcount=38) of other things to give up, but for things like Incantatrix that gives free metamagic (major power boost), they have to give up something big to gain that power.

------------------


There's an awesome trick i used. i took a level in MT for the dual progression, than use MT as my class for each geomancer level.

Really, if this was legal do you not thing this would be the munchkin's favourite?

Wiz 3/Arch 3/Geomancer 2/Mystic Theurge 10/X 2
Geo 1 advances Wiz, Geo 2 advances Arch. Geo is both an Arcane & a Divine caster so MT advances it twice at every level. Gives casting of Wiz & Arch 24 at Level 18.

(I think)

[PhoenixRivers]

3.5 PrCs aren't supposed to be automatic grabs. They are supposed to show the character surrendering skill of one thing to gain mastery of another. They're supposed to be an option, not "the base class, just better". Sticking as a Wizard 20 is supposed to be a viable option compared with a Wizard who PrC'd out. Thing is the only things Arcane casters have to give up is Familiar progression (which is junk anyway), Wizards have a few Feats, and their Caster Levels. So in order to the gain unique abilities offered by PrCs the only thing they can really be seen to give up is Caster Levels.

I admit though I like Lycanthropomancer's idea (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8407977&postcount=38) of other things to give up, but for things like Incantatrix that gives free metamagic (major power boost), they have to give up something big to gain that power.

Versatility is an option as well. If a PrC requires a very specific path, then it can qualify, even without giving up much.

For example, if a PrC were to require 4 feats (one of which is metamagic) and a specific pair of skills at 8 ranks (using nontypical skills, such as knowledge etc)...

Well, a Human Wizard will have 4 feats by level 5, aside from scribe scroll. Thus, every human wizard that wants this will need to devote their feats and skills to get it... Granted, only 1/3 of skills for a 16 int wizard, but still. There is a versatility cost.

[Renchard]

I mean, really, would anyone want to go full wizard 20 when they give up virtually nothing for PrCing out? Most full-casting prestige classes designed for wizards grant additional metamagic feats, meaning that the only thing a wizard loses out on whatsoever is familiar progression (except for hit points and a few other minor bonuses), and familiars are widely considered more of a liability than a boon anyway.

Even if you don't have to give up caster levels, there needs to be something that the character gives up. Or at least there should be. Lose spell slots, lose sanity, lose a caster level for the purposes of level-dependent effects (9d6 fireballs at level 12), lose points of Con permanently, etc.

It won't balance magic with non-magic, but it'd at least turn a non-choice into something resembling a choice.

I think the whole problem is the '+1 to spellcasting' mechanic. Ideally, spellcasting for a class would be broken up into multiple features, each of which could be progressed at its own rate. Spells per day, spells known, caster level, and access to spells would all be controlled separately, and could be varied on a class by class basis.

[okpokalypse]

I'm currently allowing a player in my PbP game to try PsiWarrior at full BAB. Hopefully that won't go over too badly.

That might come back to bite you... Remember, Psychic Warriors have great buffs that aren't of standard types. I have a Psy Warr / Ardent that, to start every combat, freezes time for 3 Rounds (Temporal Accelleration) and Buffs. Yes, 3 Rounds - as a Swift Action. So I still get my full round action after that...

1st - Metamorphosis into War Troll (Lg Size, Base 31 Str, Base 29 Con, +14 Nat Armor, All Attacks Daze).
2nd - Expansion (Large --> Gargantuan Size w/ Augment)
3rd - Precognition, Defensive (+7 AC & Saves w/ Augment).

At this point I've got 15' Reach with my now Colossal Great Axe (8d6+35 / Hit). I've got an Attack Sequence of +42/+37/+32.

This is independent of other ppls' buffs in the party as well. When Righteous Wrath and others are persisted my line starts to look like: +48/+48/+43/+38 and adds Holy Damage to my Attacks as well. Adding in a full BAB to him gets really ugly - and this guy isn't really over-the-top optimized. He's well below Wealth per Level guidelines.

And his Armor Class is a 60 and his saves are +38 / +29 / +38. He also runs just over 400 HP.

Seriously, Psychic Warrior, in the right power-gamer hands, is still the best overall Melee class with Warblade a very close 2nd. Throwing a full BAB on top of it could make things get hairy for you. Not so much as a straight Psy Warrior necessarily - but in conjunction with other stuff. Remember that a Psy Warr 4, Ardent 16 w/ Practiced Manifester WILL get 4 Base Attacks @ L20 and have a full progression for all intents and purposes. It's a very tough combination to counter past about level 12.

[Myou]

Just for curiosity, why do you have to give up something to enter a PrC? 4E paragon and epic tier characters lose nothing by taking a paragon class, and in fact it's assumed that they will take one.

d20 Modern works the same way - the base classes are all quite bland, in the assumption that you will PrC out as soon as possible.

Given that PrCs outnumber base classes by about 50 to 1, the assumption in 3.5 seems to be that characters should PrC. Why make it suck for them, especially for classes that already suck (hello monk PrCs with Toughness and Endurance requirements!)? If good class design is based around getting something new each level, then you should expect the sorcerer or cleric to PrC just because the base class is so boring to advance. It's not just power here - it's entertainment as well.

Personally, I'd like to see more prestige classes that lose nothing but only gain a little, like Ruathar or Paragnostic Apostle. That way the PC gets some new class features every level, but without really breaking the character.

And as a sidenote, I agree that the swiftblade is a terrific PrC. Lots of unique abilities, tons of flavor, dozens of possible builds and entries, very good cap at the end.

I completely agree! :smallsmile:

[Zeful]

Just for curiosity, why do you have to give up something to enter a PrC? 4E paragon and epic tier characters lose nothing by taking a paragon class, and in fact it's assumed that they will take one.

The most important reason is that PrCs are not a core part of the game. They are a variant rule: the PrCs in the DMG aren't really supposed to be used in gameplay, they're examples of the kind of (damn inconsistent) power-level the DM should defer to when making their own.



d20 Modern works the same way - the base classes are all quite bland, in the assumption that you will PrC out as soon as possible.Ahh, but d20 modern's base classes are only ten levels and give out abilities that are very general (which seems to be a larger base for 4e than 3.5 but that's tangential to the point at hand) so they could be pretty much anything.

Again, in 3.5 PrCs are a variant rule, just like Epic advancement and Gestalt rules. If a PrC is "X class, only better" it places to much weight on a variant and invalidates the 20 level class it's better than. This is a bad thing, as it makes most classes useless for everything.