Prcs that would be viable with less than 10/10 casting?

[deuxhero]

I know the trinity would be fine, what else?


On the flip side. What lost caster levels are worth it anyways? I only know of Malconvoker.

[Runestar]

Basically any spellcasting prc which actually grants additional features. If XPH can do it, I don't see why arcane ones have to be so special as to grant full caster progression. Moderate ones should give 9/10, while more powerful ones 8/10. Only the most powerful abilities might warrant a 7/10 progression.

Elemental savant should probably give 9/10 progression, rather than just 8/10. It really is fairly weak.

What's the trinity?

[Touchy]

I've heard debate on Swiftblade being worth it.

[imperialspectre]

War Weaver is quite good with 4/5 casting as written.

[Private-Prinny]

I personally think that Dracolexi is worth it. Especially with all of the new Power Words that RotD gives you.

[deuxhero]

Oh right, Swiftblade is.



What's the trinity?

Inchantrix, Tainted Scholar and somethingkeeper. All very broken.

[Keld Denar]

Dweomerkeeper.

Ordained Champion is considered good with only 3/5 casting. Nightmare Spinner is another with 4/5 casting that is good. Fatespinner is debatable, although a 1/day IWIN button is kinda slick, especially if you use it on a truely epic battle.

[erikun]

Rainbow Servant is generally considered balanced at 8/10 casting. Slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) is generally considered quite good for psionics, with full BAB, easy prerequisites, and 9/10 manifesting.

Beyond that, what are you considering "viable"? If it is simply staying within the same tier, then most 9/10 or even 8/10 with easy entry requirements work just fine. Candle Caster or Master Alchemist are never going to compete with Incantrix, but they compare just fine against a straight Wizard or Sorcerer.

If you mean viable against tier 3, then that opens up just about anything that isn't outright terrible. Even the "awful" Wizard/Cleric/Mystic Theurge is still leagues ahead of a basic fighter or rogue.

[Runestar]

I feel that swiftblade is an anomaly of sorts because it transforms your character from a pure-caster to a gish of sorts. He can still be fairly strong (eg: polymorph into a 12-headed hydra for 24 attacks each round), but at least he isn't flinging 9th lv spells around. This is why he is not all that crippled by the loss of 4 caster lvs.

[Flickerdart]

The thing about Swiftblade is that it gets a lot for those 4 lost levels, and the only spell he needs is 3rd level anyway. A "Swiftblade" based around, say, Mind Blank or Iron Body, would feel the loss of those slots.

[Starbuck_II]

The thing about Swiftblade is that it gets a lot for those 4 lost levels, and the only spell he needs is 3rd level anyway. A "Swiftblade" based around, say, Mind Blank or Iron Body, would feel the loss of those slots.

What if it lowered the level of spell slot required to cast mind blank/Iron Body as a special ability?

[DragoonWraith]

My personal list is as follows:
Anima Mage (note: you do not have to lose spellcasting progression to qualify for Anima Mage, but that's heinous cheese and even as intended it's quite acceptable)
Jade Phoenix Mage
Malconvoker
Recaster
Rainbow Servant w/ 8/10 (full-list caster only)
Rainbow Servant w/ 9/10 (spellbook casters only)
Ruby Knight Vindicator
Sand Shaper (spontaneous caster only)
Swiftblade (gish only)
Ultimate Magus (using Practiced Spellcaster to maintain full Wizard progression)
War Weaver
In every case, they are a highly specialized PrC that offers extremely potent class features for their specialty, or they add such a considerable number of spells known to classes that are usually very limited in this regard that they are worthwhile.

The Malconvoker grants +4 levels of free Metamagic on every Summon Monster spell he casts, plus some other benefits besides. Recaster focuses on spell manipulation in interesting ways. Swiftblade makes you an excellent gish, as its class features are awesome. War Weaver allows you to become a buff master, unleashing multiple buffs to your entire party as a move action.

Rainbow Servant works with Beguilers or Warmages because it expands their spell list and they know every spell on their list by default; for anyone else, the option of choosing Cleric spells as Spells Known isn't really that hot, though since Wizards can learn 2/level pretty trivially and there aren't that many he actually wants it's potentially worth a spellcasting level). Sand Shaper's excellent for people with limited Spells Known, since it adds a ton of extra spells, but it is by no means an obvious choice, which is pretty well balanced.

Incantatrix, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, and Shadowcraft Mage ought to lose some spellcasting levels. Cancer Mage, Dweormerkeeper, Planar Shepherd, and Tainted Scholar basically aren't balanced, period.

[Runestar]

The thing about Swiftblade is that it gets a lot for those 4 lost levels, and the only spell he needs is 3rd level anyway. A "Swiftblade" based around, say, Mind Blank or Iron Body, would feel the loss of those slots.

A lot, which does not directly contribute towards his spellcasting prowess. You think a primary caster would care about full bab, spring attacking or haste?

Transitioning from a caster to a gish also seems awkward, since you need to get new gear and stuff.

[senrath]

I'll second the notion that Sand Shaper is a pretty good one for spontaneous casters. It's probably not the best to take all the way, but its capstone ability is pretty cool if you're in a desert campaign.

[BenTheJester]

A lot, which does not directly contribute towards his spellcasting prowess. You think a primary caster would care about full bab, spring attacking or haste?

Transitioning from a caster to a gish also seems awkward, since you need to get new gear and stuff.

Something like Duskblade 3/Wizard 4/Abjurant Champion 1/Swiftblade 10/Abjurant Champion 2

And is good pretty much all career long(wizard allows you to learn a bunch of good touch-range feat you normally wouldn't have access to.

Replacing wizard by Cleric with time domain is good too.


Fatespinner is debatable, although a 1/day IWIN button is kinda slick, especially if you use it on a truely epic battle.

Fatespinner is bad overall, although I guess its so easy to qualify for that you don't really lose anything for taking 4 levels.

The capstone would be good if it wasn't limited to HD

[DragoonWraith]

Something like Duskblade 3/Wizard 4/Abjurant Champion 1/Swiftblade 10/Abjurant Champion 2
Why on earth would you do that? Whose spellcasting are you advancing, the Wizard's or the Duskblade's? And why do you have two different spellcasting classes in there?

Duskblade X/Swiftblade 10 or Wizard X/Swiftblade 10 makes an awful lot more sense.

[BenTheJester]

Why on earth would you do that? Whose spellcasting are you advancing, the Wizard's or the Duskblade's? And why do you have two different spellcasting classes in there?

Duskblade X/Swiftblade 10 or Wizard X/Swiftblade 10 makes an awful lot more sense.

Duskblade can't qualify on their own, strangely, they don't have Haste

And why would I even consider advancing the Duskblade's spellcasting?

And why not just pure wizard? Because pure wizard is the easy answer to everything, and channeling spells like Bestow Curse or Night's Caress in hit-and-runs(thanks to 3.0 haste) is fun.
If your DM is kind enough to let you do a Channeling attack instead of a normal melee attack when you use Spring Attack, it gets even more awesome, if not just take Flyby.

[AslanCross]

I think Ruby Knight Vindicator, Ordained Champion, Silver Pyromancer are all worth it. So is Fatespinner.

[Godskook]

Basically any spellcasting prc which actually grants additional features. If XPH can do it, I don't see why arcane ones have to be so special as to grant full caster progression.

Then you fail to see the difference between psionics and vancian casting:
-A Psion with 4 lost ML still has '9th' level powers, from a vancian view, since 1st level powers have 9th level potency and scaling(See: Astral Construct). Thanks to Practiced Manifester. He gets his full allotment of bonus power points for his level, despite being shorted on 4 levels worth of power point class progression.
Versus
-A Wizard with 4 lost CL, who's best spells are still working on spell level 8 power and DCs, and while the CL adds only minor boosts to the spell's abilities(And not enough to break the 9ths barrier) He also gets no 9th level bonus spells for any purpose.

The difference is apples and oranges.

----------

@OP, let's see:

Archmage would still be viable with *A* lost caster level. The ability to spend a 5th and a 9th to get 2 9ths is worth it.

Arcane Hierophant could probably lose exactly 1 caster level on one side.

[DragoonWraith]

Archmage has extremely intensive feat pre-requisites (though admittedly less so thanks to Master Specialist, but barring that), and all of his features come with built-in penalties. No, I don't think he'd be worth it at 4/5.

Arcane Hierophant definitely wouldn't be, at least not if you entered with the intended 3/3. It's almost worth 3 lost levels on each side, almost, but even as is I don't really think it is. If you're using Precocious Apprentice to enter with only one level lost, yeah, losing another would be balanced, but that's hardly intended.


I think Ruby Knight Vindicator, Ordained Champion, Silver Pyromancer are all worth it. So is Fatespinner.
RKV I mentioned, Ordained Champion and Silver Pyromancer I'm not very familiar with (I know next to nothing about Divine spellcasting), but you're very right about Fatespinner, forgot about that one. That one is some excellent balancing; it's not easy to convince someone to take the final level of a PrC when it loses a spellcasting level, but Fatespinner can do it.

[Godskook]

Archmage has extremely intensive feat pre-requisites (though admittedly less so thanks to Master Specialist, but barring that), and all of his features come with built-in penalties. No, I don't think he'd be worth it at 4/5.

1 non-great, but still useful, feat for entry(Spell Focus(Other school) for a master specialist entry. Not bad for additional 9th level spells.

[sonofzeal]

1 non-great, but still useful, feat for entry(Spell Focus(Other school) for a master specialist entry. Not bad for additional 9th level spells.
A lost caster level is a lost 9th level spell, and possibly more. At that point, you're trading TWO 9th level spells and a 5th level spell for a pair of 9th level, and that hardly seems reasonable now does it?

[Draz74]

What's the trinity?

I think the one being referred to was Incantatrix, Dweomerkeeper, and Planar Shepherd. Not Tainted Scholar, which is in the even-nastier "trinity" with Beholder Mage and Illithid Savant.

[Godskook]

A lost caster level is a lost 9th level spell, and possibly more. At that point, you're trading TWO 9th level spells and a 5th level spell for a pair of 9th level, and that hardly seems reasonable now does it?

Assuming you lose the caster level at 1st, you get 3 levels worth of trading 5th+9th for 2 9ths, so you gain 3 'bonus' spells over the course of the levels, for a net of 2 compared to not losing the caster level with straight wizard.

You also gain 2 other abilities, which can be things like Mastery of Shaping(well named!), Arcane Reach, Mastery of Elements(All spells are now sonic!), or Spell Power.

And note: The guides actually list the bonus spells as one of the sub-par options for the class.

So yeah, at 4/5, I'm sticking to it still being quite viable.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

A few notes on Swiftblade:

- The last level of casting lost is at 10th, so it is entirely skippable, leaving you with something like Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5, which is pretty sweet for a gish, even if you never bother with the Spring Attack line of feats. The real joy of Swiftblade is (Ex) 50% miss chances. That said, getting a pseudo-time stop affect at ECL 16 may be worth it for some.
-Kobolds can cheese it even harder, going to Swiftblade 10 and still get access to 9th level spells.
-If you're into even more Gouda, you can shuffle off the spring attack line of bonus feats for great justice.

Depending on interpretation, I'd offer up Legacy Champion as something that's not terrible when used with other PrCs (namely War Weaver). In the same manner, Arcane Trickster is may also do you well. The extra skill tricks are nice, too.

[Godskook]

Depending on interpretation, I'd offer up Legacy Champion as something that's not terrible when used with other PrCs (namely War Weaver). In the same manner, Arcane Trickster is may also do you well. The extra skill tricks are nice, too.

You mean Uncanny Trickster.

Arcane Trickster is a different class, one that's great with splats, but sucks without them, and ironically, has 10/10 internal caster progression, despite costing 3 caster levels to enter. With splats, you can save yourself a caster level or two, just by entering via another rogue/wizard prestige class, so Arcane Trickster makes a great finisher to a splat build.

[Shiva asori]

I think he means magical trickster maybe.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

You mean Uncanny Trickster.

Arcane Trickster is a different class, one that's great with splats, but sucks without them, and ironically, has 10/10 internal caster progression, despite costing 3 caster levels to enter. With splats, you can save yourself a caster level or two, just by entering via another rogue/wizard prestige class, so Arcane Trickster makes a great finisher to a splat build.


I think he means magical trickster maybe.

Yeah, it's the magical, skill based one in Complete Scoundrel. I knew Arcane Trickster wasn't it. Arcane Trickster definitely would be a hard sell if it itself lost caster levels.

[TheMadLinguist]

Ur-priest.

It would still be viable if it, say, only progressed casting half as fast.

[Lycanthromancer]

Ur-priest.

It would still be viable if it, say, only progressed casting half as fast.A 15 level PrC that granted 8th level spells? I could see that.

[Godskook]

Ur-priest.

It would still be viable if it, say, only progressed casting half as fast.

Nah, that's weak. Try a cleric instead.

OOooooooooh the irony. It BURNS!!!!!!!!!

[TheMadLinguist]

Yeah, I guess the class features it gets like stealing wishes from efreeti totally pale in comparison to some other class's. I mean, the adept gets a familiar, for crying out loud.

[sonofzeal]

Ur-priest.

It would still be viable if it, say, only progressed casting half as fast.
Er, except the spells-per-day kind of stink, so it'd be thoroughly overshadowed by most full casters.

[Runestar]

Yeah, I guess the class features it gets like stealing wishes from efreeti totally pale in comparison to some other class's. I mean, the adept gets a familiar, for crying out loud.

I don't see a prc which forces you to suck for 9 lvs just so you rock at 10th lv as balanced.

Just keep ur-priest as an npc class and it is pretty much balanced, since a cleric15 is weaker than cr15 anyways.

[TheMadLinguist]

Getting fewer spells per day than the cleric from the same list is hardly sucky.

Siphon spell power can easily be abused to break the spell level cap, anyway (why look, I can DMM heighten to ninth level. Oh, and freebase earth spell and sanctum spell to turn it up to eleven.)

It's just badly designed.

[Runestar]

Getting fewer spells per day than the cleric from the same list is hardly sucky.

But why bother playing one over a straight cleric15 then? I suppose you could argue that it is still stronger than other non-caster classes, but the point is that a superior alternative exists, so there is no reason to use it. :smallconfused:

[TheMadLinguist]

Well, if you're evil, or worshiping a dead god, or just hate the gods and want some spell resistance that doesn't screw with the party wizard.
I'm not saying it would be a first choice, but it's certainly a viable option.

The other way to deal with it would be to limit the spell list to something really small, like the divine crusader's.

[DragoonWraith]

I worked with a DM once on an alternate Ur-Priest-type that was 15 levels long, and basically had the Ur-Priest progression until it "caught up" with a Sorcerer, and then proceeded at the Sorcerer rate (for spell levels accessed, not with spells per day). That way it got somewhat more spells per day, but also did not get early 9th's. It seemed reasonably balanced.

Mostly, I like Ur-Priest because it makes dual-progression PrCs not suck. Hell, even Tenebrous Apostate's not awful with one (plus the flavor matches up perfectly).

[Kalaska'Agathas]

...Just keep ur-priest as an npc class and it is pretty much balanced, since a cleric15 is weaker than cr15 anyways.*

Are you sure?

*Emphasis this author's

[Optimystik]

The lack of Planar Shepherd in this thread is highly disturbing

[sonofzeal]

The lack of Planar Shepherd in this thread is highly disturbing
Ssssshhh! We should not talk about The PrC That Dare Not Speak Its Name!

[Mordokai]

The lack of Planar Shepherd in this thread is highly disturbing

I noticed this one to be said to be broken probably more often than IotsfV.

What does the damn thing do anyway? I know (think) it's a druid PrC and it has roots somewhere in Eberron, but beyond that, I know nothing.

[sonofzeal]

I noticed this one to be said to be broken probably more often than IotsfV.

What does the damn thing do anyway? I know (think) it's a druid PrC and it has roots somewhere in Eberron, but beyond that, I know nothing.
Imagine you had all the power of a full Druid - 100% of the spellcasting, of the Wildshaping, of the Animal Companion. Now imagine that you could trade your other mediocre class features for far more powerful ones. Now imagine that, on top of that, your Wildshape became several times stronger by letting you turn into far more exotic and powerful Magical Beasts and Outsiders. Now imagine that, on top of that, you could take five, ten, a hundred turns for every single turn other people take.

Yeah.

That's The PrC That Dare Not Speak Its Name.

[Keld Denar]

Don't forget the fact that you get all the SLAs of the stuff you turn into with Planar Shepherd. Turn into a Pit Fiend....yea....or an Efreet, or a Solar, or a number of other things. Depending on what plane you choose, you can get rediculous real ultimate power limited only by a VERY large table and your own imagination.

[Pluto]

The lack of Planar Shepherd in this thread is highly disturbing

I'm pretty sure that's because it's usually grouped with Dweomer Keeper and Incantatrix in the "Big Three" mentioned in the first post.

For classes with lost CL that are still worthwhile, Sandshaper's not bad for spontaneous casters.
And Practiced Spellcaster-entry Ultimate Magus works very nicely.
And most of the 8/10 psionic PrC's (Thrallherd, pretty much everything on the Mind's Eye and Hyperconscious), even without Practiced Manifester to take the bite off.
Even less of a casting thing, but Ironsoul Forgemaster and Totem Rager are generally worthwhile.

[DragoonWraith]

The lack of Planar Shepherd in this thread is highly disturbing

Cancer Mage, Dweormerkeeper, Planar Shepherd, and Tainted Scholar basically aren't balanced, period.
Emphasis mine....

[Mordokai]

Thanks for the explanation people :smallsmile:

[Eldariel]

The lack of Planar Shepherd in this thread is highly disturbing

Planar Shepherd is, I think, the only caster class I'd be taking all the way with 0/10 casting progression. It's that good. It gives you crazy Wildshape abilities, crazy spell-likes (including every damn creature on your chosen plane through Wildshape!) and yeah, you had that handy dandy Fighter substitute too. Tainted Scholar is just a 2-level dip anyways so it doesn't really matter what casting it gives you, and yeah.

[Optimystik]

Emphasis mine....

*Checks post edit time*
*Compares to time on his post*

Uh-huh :smalltongue:

(I did search before posting that, you know.)


I'm pretty sure that's because it's usually grouped with Dweomer Keeper and Incantatrix in the "Big Three" mentioned in the first post.

No, his third one there was Tainted Scholar. Which means we need to expand the "big three."

[DragoonWraith]

*Checks post edit time*
*Compares to time on his post*

Uh-huh :smalltongue:

(I did search before posting that, you know.)
Not particularly well, then, because Planar Shepherd was on that list when I first posted it. The most recent edit was to add, IIRC, Ultimate Magus. Previous edits added Anima Mage, Jade Phoenix Mage, Ruby Knight Vindicator, and Cancer Mage. But Planar Shepherd was a part of the original post.

[Optimystik]

Not particularly well, then, because Planar Shepherd was on that list when I first posted it. The most recent edit was to add, IIRC, Ultimate Magus. Previous edits added Anima Mage, Jade Phoenix Mage, Ruby Knight Vindicator, and Cancer Mage. But Planar Shepherd was a part of the original post.

Sure thing, buddy :smallwink:

Not that it matters - one mention of Planar Shepherd still isn't enough for this thread. It is Planar Shepherd

[Eldariel]

No, his third one there was Tainted Scholar. Which means we need to expand the "big three."

No, we don't. Big Three is the best three PrCs that basically turn into Super Wizard, Super Cleric and Super Druid. That's a bunch of insanity incarnates that could theoretically exist in a real game and are merely just turbocharged versions of Tier 1 classes (though of course, especially Dweomerkeeper can do very ugly things to the gameworld [*cough*Supernatural Spell*cough*], and Planar Shepherd can kinda bone reality in the rear too [*cough*WishSLAs*cough*] - Incantatrix can do that too, but mostly thanks to having Wizard casting with the class abilities just making him stronger in Wizard-casting).

Then we get to the unspeakable territory that includes the likes of Beholder Mage, Illithid Savant, Tainted Scholar, Cancer Mage, which aren't logical continuations of any class but inherent insanity so deep their very existence breaks everything and that really remove the need for base classes altogether. And Ur-Priest falls somewhere in there. It's kinda obscure.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Tainted Scholar, which is in the even-nastier "trinity" with Beholder Mage and Illithid Savant.Mmmmm, now I'm listening :smallcool:


Cancer Mage [isn't] balanced, period.It only needs a two word fix.

Honestly if you want more viable worse casting progression casting, just ask the DM to curb-stomp nerf casters. :smallwink:

[AslanCross]

RKV I mentioned, Ordained Champion and Silver Pyromancer I'm not very familiar with (I know next to nothing about Divine spellcasting), but you're very right about Fatespinner, forgot about that one. That one is some excellent balancing; it's not easy to convince someone to take the final level of a PrC when it loses a spellcasting level, but Fatespinner can do it.

Silver Pyromancer is from the Eberron book Five Nations. It requires Arcane Casting and Turn undead and only has 3/5 arcane caster progression, so you're likely to lose at least three caster levels. However, it gives the following:

1. Sacred Flame: The ability to ignore fire resistance, and later, immunities. Given how common those are, it's quite helpful.
2. Caster level for fire spells is equal to HD.
3. Turn undead deals damage in addition to the regular turning mechanic. Okay, nobody really uses Turn Undead, but I've found that useful.
4. Arcane caster levels count towards turning undead.
5. You can choose Paladin spells when you choose your level up spells. I dunno about you, but being able to cast Holy Sword at a much earlier level is pretty awesome. Probably not optimal, but the Paladin spell list is pretty good.
6. Smiting Spell: Fire spell deals extra sacred damage vs evil creatures, though this can't be used with the Sacred Flame class feature.
7. Pants:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/5n_gallery/90026.jpg

Bonus: Bow proficiencies, since that's the Silver Flame's favored weapon.

Probably not the most overwhelming PrC for all casters, but it makes blasters and the much-maligned fire spells useful again.

As for Ordained Champ, it basically turns the cleric into a Divine Duskblade. It's great for melee clerics.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Silver Pyromancer is from the Eberron book Five Nations. It requires Arcane Casting and Turn undead and only has 3/5 arcane caster progression, so you're likely to lose at least three caster levels. However, it gives the following:

<snip>

You can actually get turn undead with a dip into sacred exorcist which it fits thematically.

[AslanCross]

Ah, true. It's possible, though it would require the wizard to take Silver Pyro at level 10. Wizards don't get Dismissal until Lv 9. A cleric dip+5 Wizard levels is sufficient, and gives tasty Domain powers as well.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Ah, true. It's possible, though it would require the wizard to take Silver Pyro at level 10. Wizards don't get Dismissal until Lv 9. A cleric dip+5 Wizard levels is sufficient, and gives tasty Domain powers as well.



Hmm a Cloistered Cleric 1(Inquisition, Undeath domains and trading knowledge for the devotion)/wiz 5/SP 5/ Incantrix 9 can make some nasty metamagiked orbs of fire (or other orbs with energy subs)

....Dam you AslanCross, you made me want to play a silver pyromancer (my eberron character tend to HATE the silver flame) but the prospect of a heavy metamagied orb of fire is REALLY tempting..

[AslanCross]

Hmm a Cloistered Cleric 1(Inquisition, Undeath domains and trading knowledge for the devotion)/wiz 5/SP 5/ Incantrix 9 can make some nasty metamagiked orbs of fire (or other orbs with energy subs)

....Dam you AslanCross, you made me want to play a silver pyromancer (my eberron character tend to HATE the silver flame) but the prospect of a heavy metamagied orb of fire is REALLY tempting..

Hahaha. :smallbiggrin: I actually like the Silver Flame and can run both the oppressive and the noble aspects in my campaigns. Anyway, I looked at my book again---apparently, Silver Pyro is 4/5 casting. Only the first level doesn't get a caster level increase.

[DragoonWraith]

Wow, I'm tempted to take it with a character who's already going into Sacred Exorcist - just for the ability to have all arcane caster levels count for Turn Undead. That turns the almost-meaningless bonus from Sacred Exorcist into something useful. Unfortunately, he's also a Malconvoker, which means he's already lost a caster level. Hmm, hmm. He's also more demon-oriented than undead, hmm.

[AslanCross]

Sorry, I made a mistake.

The Silver Pyro gains Purge Undead, which uses Turn Undead uses to deal 1d6/cleric level damage to all undead within 30 feet. Arcane caster levels count as cleric levels for this purpose, but unfortunately, not for the regular Turn Undead use.

It might not be so suitable for your purposes, DragoonWraith.

[Runestar]

Are you sure?

*Emphasis this author's

The general trend of monsters with spellcasting is that they tend to cast 1 lv higher than their cr. For example, a planetar is cr16 and casts as a cleric17. A ghaele is cr13 and casts as a cleric14. A mindflayer (cr8) casts as a 9th lv psion while an ethergaunt (cr16) casts as a wiz17.

This is in addition to their superior stat mods and other abilities. Not to mention that class lvs automatically add the elite stat array for free, so they are no inferior to humanoid npcs in this aspect.

Alternatively, using the non-associated class rule, we can easily get cleric spellcaster lv = cr, and racial HD + superior racial stat mods to boot.

For instance, a gnoll cleric2 is cr2 (cr1, +1cr for 2 lvs of cleric being non-associated), and statistically superior to a human cleric2 for most part. A storm giant sorc20 (cr24) with practiced spellcaster is cr24 and has caster lv24, same as a human sorc24, but triple the hp (amongst other goodies).

Simply put, from a stats viewpoint, there is little reason or incentive to use pure-classed npcs when you get much more bang for your buck by combining monsters+class lvs. :smalleek: