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PId6
2010-05-01, 07:03 AM
So, we're currently a mid-level party averaging ECL 13-14 in the middle of a factory-like tower that seems thematically aligned with iron and fire-based creatures. It's been a very long dungeon so far, and we've made slow progress over the last few sessions. Our party is generally extremely optimized (admittedly almost entirely my fault), and the DM has previously dealt with that by sending vastly higher CR monsters at us, leading sometimes to far too difficult encounters and other times having encounters as complete cakewalks when they shouldn't be. It's generally been okay so far though.

Well last session, the DM has informed me (out of and in character) that we're going to be facing a pit fiend in this dungeon. Now, one of the spellcasters we've already faced in this dungeon has given us a taste of the power of Blasphemy, and I have to say, I'm not looking forward to it again, especially not as an at-will SLA. Out of the entire party, only me and maybe another person are immune to the spell (Evil alignment), and since we're so much lower level than the encounter level, Blasphemy is pretty much guaranteed to paralyze half the party and daze-lock/weaken most of the rest.

Party:

Me, a level 14 Fiend of Possession/Ardent/Thrallherd acting through my Half-Minotaur Dungeoncrasher Fighter/Warblade thrall (though party thinks I'm the minotaur). The thrall has the Power Attack/Shock Trooper/Knockback combo, while my actual character has some useful powers in Astral Construct, Expansion, Major Creation, Psionic Dominate, and Metamorphosis (with Metamorphic Transfer) all at ML 10. Unfortunately, the DM has ruled that since we're in some kind of demiplane rather than the Prime Material, the Ethereal Plane does not exist here and thus I'd prefer not having to unpossess my thrall since I likely won't be able to get back in for quite a while.

A level 12 Wizard/Incantatrix focused entirely on blasting. He has metamagic'd Orbs up the wazoo, but is extremely fragile (he uses almost no buffs at all). The player isn't even with us half the time, making relying on his character a risky proposition at best.

A level 14 DMM Cleric/Entropomancer who buffs heavily. The Entropomancer is houseruled to only lose one caster level, and the DM promised him a Sphere at 17th level if he takes the class :smalltongue:. He can persist 3 spells a day (usually Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Mass Lesser Vigor, and something else), as well as use various hours-long buffs (Hero's Feast, Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestments, Superior Resistance). He has a Rod of Chaining.

A level 14 Druid/Planar Shepherd, whose class features are gutted so that he can't get any 10 rounds to 1 shenanigans. He's pretty satisfied with buffing up and smashing face. Chosen plane is Arborea, so probably nothing too abusable.

A ... rogue, I think, who's pretty content to stay invisible all the time and not do anything during combats. Has kept him alive so far, I guess. Indeterminate alignment, and probably won't matter much since he doesn't actually fight (has great out of combat skills though).

And that's probably it. The remaining two members are a Swift Hunter who dropped to a Symbol of Death last session, and a Frenzied Berserker that always tries to TPK the party, who fortunately died to said pit fiend last session and will soon be reincarnated as a Mind Flayer monk once we find his body (don't ask).

We will be getting a rest before we (probably) fight the pit fiend next session. We're not allowed to go shopping for magic items or scrolls, so we're pretty much left with what we have and the spells we can prepare, all sources open. The pit fiend's almost certainly going to have reinforcements, most likely more of the golems and steel predators we've seen throughout the tower, and potentially more creatures with class-levels as well. A Forbiddence effect hangs over the area, preventing teleportation over the area (so I can't even Psionic Teleport out if things turn south).

Any strategies for not getting slaughtered? Some protection or defense against Blasphemy would be awesome, but even then, the pit fiend's very dangerous by itself. And without Blasphemy-insurance, the wizard, if he's here, would be knocked out in a single hit while the Cleric and Druid would potentially be Str-damaged to insignificance. I doubt I can take on a CR 20 with this character alone, especially not if it has helpers (not to mention its 1/year Wish). Would really love some strategies or spell suggestions or whatever (especially cleric persist targets).

tl;dr: Pit fiend about to Blasphemy us to death. Advice?

Project_Mayhem
2010-05-01, 07:13 AM
What's your diplomacy like? You're evil - you could switch sides :smallbiggrin:

Runestar
2010-05-01, 07:13 AM
Heroes feast to tackle his fear aura and disease.

At your lv, greater spell immunity is not accessible. Your best bet seems to be silence (since blasphemy is a sonic spell) cast on your tanks, but bear in mind the pit fiend can still dispel this.

Alternatively, attempt to disrupt his attempts at using SLAs by having the casters ready actions to fire damage spells at him when he tries to activate a SLA. It does have a fairly high touch AC though. Sr can be an issue as well, and bear in mind its resistances and immunities.

Fluff-wise, a pit fiend has no business using its wish during combat, though your DM can easily ignore this. This is possible the biggest uncertainty, but I simply assume he will use wish as a "get out of jail free" card, rather than offensively (such as emulating an AMF and proceeding to devastate the party by grappling them+biting+poison).

Another problem is its insanely high AC and regeneration. How reliably can you hit AC44? There is also the issue of it summoning in 2 horned devils to help. Some means to combat this?

Maybe freedom of movement vs its grapple/constrict and mass hold monster SLA. Fire resistance against its fireball/meteor swarm.

Its full-attack routine isn't really all that scary. Assuming you have time to buff thoroughly, it is not an impossible fight.

These are just some general tips to deal with its expected tactics.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-01, 07:21 AM
Silence is an option, but is noticeable and dispellable.

I'd recommend actually using Deafness to counter blasphemy.

You can dispel it when you need to, and otherwise, it's a foolproof defense vs such effects.

nargbop
2010-05-01, 07:27 AM
I would suggest having at least two people on interrupt-the-SLA duty. Delay action until the PF's action, then damage him.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities
Check with with DM to ensure that SLAs can be interrupted by damaging the Pit Fiend and causing a Concentration check to finish the SLA. DMG page 289 does not say specifically that you can do this.

The unholy aura is problematic, causing STR damage to melee attackers. You will either have to use a spell to grant immunity to ability damage ( Stone Body, Iron Body ) , use spells , or use ranged attacks.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-01, 08:53 AM
I would suggest having at least two people on interrupt-the-SLA duty. Delay action until the PF's action, then damage him.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities
Check with with DM to ensure that SLAs can be interrupted by damaging the Pit Fiend and causing a Concentration check to finish the SLA. DMG page 289 does not say specifically that you can do this.

The unholy aura is problematic, causing STR damage to melee attackers. You will either have to use a spell to grant immunity to ability damage ( Stone Body, Iron Body ) , use spells , or use ranged attacks.


Using a spell-like ability while threatened provokes attacks of opportunity.


You must make a Concentration check whenever you might potentially be distracted (by taking damage, by harsh weather, and so on) while engaged in some action that requires your full attention. Such actions include casting a spell, concentrating on an active spell, directing a spell, using a spell-like ability, or using a skill that would provoke an attack of opportunity. In general, if an action wouldn’t normally provoke an attack of opportunity, you need not make a Concentration check to avoid being distracted.

It's pretty clear.

Eldariel
2010-05-01, 10:55 AM
If you have some means to notice it's being used (Battlemagic Perception?), readied Silences in the area of the Pit Fiend would work just as well and efficiently negate his Blasphemies at the cost of one of your actions each round while the others kick the living outta him.

Keld Denar
2010-05-01, 11:40 AM
There is a feat in Lords of Madness called Swift Recovery. It allows you to make a save to negate a host of effects, among them Daze and Stun, as a move action on your own turn if you started your turn under the effects of one of them. The clincher is that it allows you to make a save even if the origional effect doesn't allow a save, and it gives you a formula to assign a save to the effect.

If you have a good will save, this is the best way to counter blasphemy. I'm guessing that your characters are already though, so I guess it doesn't help much.

PS: Hi PId6! You should restart your frozen waste game again!

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-01, 11:42 AM
If you have some means to notice it's being used (Battlemagic Perception?), readied Silences in the area of the Pit Fiend would work just as well and efficiently negate his Blasphemies at the cost of one of your actions each round while the others kick the living outta him.

Mass Hold Monster is one of the big powers to watch for. Expect 3 times where you're going to see a fireball along with actions.

Freedom of Movement is required reading for this.
Dimension Anchor, also (block the teleport)
True Seeing is ideal (Illusions)
Fire Resist 30 will protect you mostly from the Fireballs, as well as from Meteor Swarm.
Mind Blank if you can get it, to protect from Power Word Stun.
Hero's Feast, to protect from poison and fear.

Beating the thing's touch AC isn't so hard (17-21). Beating its actual AC is.
On the bright side, it doesn't have a whole lot of HP, only a couple hundred. The Regeneration will be a pain, though, as will SR 32.

Focus on high damage SR: No spells, or prepare to try to make decent rolls even with Assay Resistance.

Note: This thing can, if you don't have Fire resist, REALLY hurt.

Meteor Swarm - 4 touch attacks against a single person.
If all hit? 24d6 fire damage + 8d6 bludgeoning damage (No save)
Followed by Fireball (Quickened) 10d6 fire (reflex half).

Assuming you pass the save, that's an average of:
Swarm: 112 damage
Fireball: 17 damage
Or, about 130 damage.

Now, with Fire Resist 30, assume the save is FAILED.

6d6 fire (21) + 2d6 (7) bludgeon per orb = 7 damage per orb (fire resist 30)
4 orbs = 28 damage

Fireball = 10d6 fire (35) = 5 fire damage.
Or about 33 damage to the primary target. (5 damage to secondary protected targets in the blast - assuming all saves passed)

And that's a level 2 resist energy spell. So keep your resists up.

TheMadLinguist
2010-05-01, 01:29 PM
Silence is an option, but is noticeable and dispellable.

I'd recommend actually using Deafness to counter blasphemy.

You can dispel it when you need to, and otherwise, it's a foolproof defense vs such effects.

Sticking wax in your ears is probably a better idea, so you have less issue with enemy dispels.

Stompy
2010-05-01, 01:41 PM
Is running an option? (It seems like a viable good option.)

Pluto
2010-05-01, 01:51 PM
Sticking wax in your ears is probably a better idea, so you have less issue with enemy dispels.
...
:smallbiggrin:
Simple, elegant.
I love it.

Doppelganger
2010-05-01, 01:56 PM
Grease? It'll fail one check in four on average. Only one check in twenty badly enough to fall, but it's a start.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-01, 02:45 PM
Grease? It'll fail one check in four on average. Only one check in twenty badly enough to fall, but it's a start.

Fly/Teleport kinda make that less than fantastic.

herrhauptmann
2010-05-01, 02:58 PM
Sticking wax in your ears is probably a better idea, so you have less issue with enemy dispels.

That's very mythic of you. Odysseus did just taht, didn't he?

PId6
2010-05-01, 03:08 PM
What's your diplomacy like? You're evil - you could switch sides :smallbiggrin:
Lawful Evil my good sir. I'd sooner break someone's skull than break my word!


Silence is an option, but is noticeable and dispellable.

I'd recommend actually using Deafness to counter blasphemy.

You can dispel it when you need to, and otherwise, it's a foolproof defense vs such effects.
I forgot Blasphemy was a [sonic] spell. That makes things a lot easier. I can manifest Mindlink so communication should still be fine even if we're deaf. Does Deafness counter Blasphemy though? Being deaf doesn't give immunity to sonic, and nothing in the spell description says you have to actually hear it. The casters probably wouldn't like 20% spell failure too. Would Energy Immunity [Sonic] do the same thing?


Another problem is its insanely high AC and regeneration. How reliably can you hit AC44? There is also the issue of it summoning in 2 horned devils to help. Some means to combat this?
The summoning shouldn't be an issue; the DM has already told us that the Forbiddance stops all planar travel, so summonings should fail automatically.

AC 44 is a problem. I can hit that easily on a charge, but will have trouble with it if I'm already in melee, especially if I want to Power Attack for good damage through its DR. The druid might have more trouble, but if he he buffs beforehand with Bite of the Werebear and get insanely high Str, he should be able to hit though. The animal companion will be useless, and the cleric likely won't be going into melee since her to-hit is much lower.


If you have some means to notice it's being used (Battlemagic Perception?), readied Silences in the area of the Pit Fiend would work just as well and efficiently negate his Blasphemies at the cost of one of your actions each round while the others kick the living outta him.
The cleric has low enough Spellcraft though that she would fail to recognize the spell half the time. Battlemagic Perception would still let her notice the SLA being used, but if she doesn't identify the spell, she might cast the readied action as soon as an enemy uses another random spell or another SLA like Quickened Fireball, and leave us defenseless to a Blasphemy. Only one is enough to screw the party over.


Grease? It'll fail one check in four on average. Only one check in twenty badly enough to fall, but it's a start.
It can fly though, so I don't think that'll be much hindrance.


Sticking wax in your ears is probably a better idea, so you have less issue with enemy dispels.
I don't think we actually have any wax, though I could potentially make some. Are there any types of wax-like substances that are considered plant or mineral matter?


Is running an option? (It seems like a viable good option.)
Already done that once. And probably not as a permanent solution, though I'm certainly going to if things go bad.


The unholy aura is problematic, causing STR damage to melee attackers. You will either have to use a spell to grant immunity to ability damage ( Stone Body, Iron Body ) , use spells , or use ranged attacks.
The druid and I are the only ones likely going into melee with it, and neither of us are Good so we don't have to worry about the Str damage. The cleric is, but she likely won't hit in melee anyway.


Freedom of Movement is required reading for this.
Dimension Anchor, also (block the teleport)
True Seeing is ideal (Illusions)
Fire Resist 30 will protect you mostly from the Fireballs, as well as from Meteor Swarm.
Mind Blank if you can get it, to protect from Power Word Stun.
Hero's Feast, to protect from poison and fear.
No Mind Blank, and Dimensional Anchor isn't necessary with the Forbiddance in effect. We all have Scout's Headbands so those deal with illusions nicely.

List of buffs to have so far:

Hero's Feast
Resist Fire on each party member
Freedom of Movement on each party member (yay clerics and druids!)
Energy Immunity [Sonic] on each non-evil party member (?)
Activate True Seeing

Anything else? Also, any offensive spells the cleric can use that can actually harm this thing?


If you have a good will save, this is the best way to counter blasphemy. I'm guessing that your characters are already though, so I guess it doesn't help much.
Yep, characters are set so can't change feats (didn't take Psychic Reformation unfortunately). We can't even buy items beforehand so no way to get Mind Blank.


PS: Hi PId6! You should restart your frozen waste game again!
Maybe in a few weeks. Exams are peering around the corner these days so I don't have as much time as I'd like. Would love to once classes are done for the semester though.

DragoonWraith
2010-05-01, 03:13 PM
Hey FFF! How's it going? I finally released NifScript NifSE v1.0 alpha!

I don't think we actually have any wax, though I could potentially make some. Are there any types of wax-like substances that are considered plant or mineral matter?
Carnauba wax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnauba) would work well, I think.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-01, 03:19 PM
That's very mythic of you. Odysseus did just taht, didn't he?

Odysseus had his crew do that... then had himself lashed to the mast so he could hear it and not interfere with the crew.

Fire Resistance really is the key. Keep the Orb-Wizard in reserve to only interrupt the Pit Fiend's casting. If the Wizard has a high enough initiative and you get a surprise round, he can get a surprise blast in... but he absolutely must have a better initiative than the Fiend or that first round he (and most of the party) will be taken out by the Blasphemy.

Interrupt every casting the Fiend does. Arcane Sight or some other way of knowing when a spell is being cast is important because SLA's don't require verbal, somatic, material, focus, or XP components. They do provoke attacks of opportunity, but don't rely on that since the Pit Fiend has enough Concentration to just cast defensively.

I say interrupt every casting because anything he does is bad for you... plus, if it's interrupted, it loses it's standard action for the round.

If there's enough room, keep your Wizard back far enough and get him a Ring of Evasion and/or things to pick his Reflex Save up as high as possible since he's going to be the target of those 3 quickened Fireballs it can cast.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-01, 03:21 PM
I forgot Blasphemy was a [sonic] spell. That makes things a lot easier. I can manifest Mindlink so communication should still be fine even if we're deaf. Does Deafness counter Blasphemy though? Being deaf doesn't give immunity to sonic, and nothing in the spell description says you have to actually hear it. The casters probably wouldn't like 20% spell failure too. Would Energy Immunity [Sonic] do the same thing?No. Energy Immunity only protects from Hit Point damage, nothing else.


Anything else? Also, any offensive spells the cleric can use that can actually harm this thing?
Cometfall would be good, if you can align the spell to have the [good] descriptor. It's SR: No, and will bypass the DR, but not the bludgeoning damage. Reflex for half, but there's a weakness in every plan.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-01, 03:24 PM
Interrupt every casting the Fiend does. Arcane Sight or some other way of knowing when a spell is being cast is important because SLA's don't require verbal, somatic, material, focus, or XP components. They do provoke attacks of opportunity, but don't rely on that since the Pit Fiend has enough Concentration to just cast defensively.

I say interrupt every casting because anything he does is bad for you... plus, if it's interrupted, it loses it's standard action for the round.

The Pit fiend can cast 2 SLA's a round. What if the one the orbizard counters is the fireball?

On a side note: Give the Pit fiend Negative levels. Drop that CL low enough and Blasphemy is useless.

Pluto
2010-05-01, 03:27 PM
Does Deafness counter Blasphemy though? Being deaf doesn't give immunity to sonic, and nothing in the spell description says you have to actually hear it. The casters probably wouldn't like 20% spell failure too.
Damn. You're right. I could have sworn that spell was Language-dependent.
That rules earplugs out too.


Would Energy Immunity [Sonic] do the same thing?
"...Energy immunity absorbs only hit point damage..."

Silence would still work, if you could find a way to cast through it.

Darkxarth
2010-05-01, 03:39 PM
Unfortunately, my skill at optimizing characters is low, and my knowledge of obscure spells and tactics is as well. However, I do have a suggestion. Do you have to fight the Pit Fiend? I mean, sure, it is worth tons of XP and it's evil, but do you have to actually fight it?

A Pit Fiend is a devil, which means almost certainly LE. Devils (unlike Demons) tend to be after only one thing when they are not at home: power. For most, that means collecting souls and/or puppets on the Material Plane. However, there are other means of acquiring power. Why not make a deal with this Devil? Sure, you are likely to have a hard time of whatever deal is made, but surely it can't be worse than suffering a TPK?

The only reason I can think that the Pit Fiend would not be willing to at least listen to the offer of a deal, would be if it were captured/controlled by an outside source. Which would mean that finding some way of releasing it would be key. Convince it to go after whoever/whatever bound it, and then let it go. You may have to deal with the consequences later, but, again, you avoid a TPK.

Wish I had some super-awesome spell or a cunning plan, but this is all I've got. Good luck, and be sure to let us know how it all turns out.

TheMadLinguist
2010-05-01, 03:52 PM
Isn't blasphemy just "as holy word, but causes harm to evil dudes"? I know holy word only works on people who hear it.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-01, 03:54 PM
Isn't blasphemy just "as holy word, but causes harm to evil dudes"? I know holy word only works on people who hear it.

"Any nongood creature within the area that hears the holy word suffers the following ill effects."

"Any nonevil creature within the area of a blasphemy spell suffers the following ill effects."

Nope.

TheMadLinguist
2010-05-01, 03:55 PM
Just one more example of evil getting all the good stuff...

Greenish
2010-05-01, 04:01 PM
An argument could be made for needing to hear the blasphemy to be affected:
Furthermore, if you are on your home plane when you cast this spell, nonevil extraplanar creatures within the area are instantly banished back to their home planes. Creatures so banished cannot return for at least 24 hours. This effect takes place regardless of whether the creatures hear the blasphemy. The banishment effect allows a Will save (at a -4 penalty) to negate.The wording implies that the other effects do not take place if the creature cannot hear it.

However, while Holy Word explicitly states that "Any nongood creature within the area that hears the holy word suffers the following ill effects" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holyword.htm), Blasphemy uses different wording: "Any nonevil creature within the area of a blasphemy spell suffers the following ill effects" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blasphemy.htm).

Assuming your characters know about the SLA, you can ask your DMs interpretation with know:arcana.

[Edit]: Yarr, bloody ninjas.

aivanther
2010-05-01, 05:05 PM
Blast it really really hard? I mean, I'd have to see the mechanics of your build, but theoretically a charger should be able to smack it pretty hard with its first hit, especially with enough pre-game buffs dropped on you. Follow that up with enough damage via the wizard (twin spelled 12d6 orbs perhaps should smack it for a good 80 points of damage). With a decent surprise round, this MIGHT actually get him down fast enough to save your hide (bad solution, I know, but still theoretically possible).

Or have the wizard hit it with a twin spell, split ray of dizziness. Force it into an action economy crisis to give yourself more time to beat on it.

Runestar
2010-05-01, 07:12 PM
If you have a good will save, this is the best way to counter blasphemy. I'm guessing that your characters are already though, so I guess it doesn't help much.

Blasphemy's primary effect does not offer a save.


Blast it really really hard? I mean, I'd have to see the mechanics of your build, but theoretically a charger should be able to smack it pretty hard with its first hit, especially with enough pre-game buffs dropped on you.

The key problem here is the pit fiend's regeneration, which can only be overcome by good effects. Damage spells are useful in disrupting its SLAs, but if you want it to go down permanently...:smallfrown:

aivanther
2010-05-01, 07:53 PM
The key problem here is the pit fiend's regeneration, which can only be overcome by good effects. Damage spells are useful in disrupting its SLAs, but if you want it to go down permanently...:smallfrown:

Hence the buffing bit. I admit I was assuming silvered weapons, but bless weapon is a 1st level divine spell, is it not?

Of course, damage spells are difficult, but a twin split ray orb of force (40d6) should do enough to do enough damage to wear it down real bad, especially since it only regenerate 5 hp/round?

My knowledge of spells is a little fuzzy, so correct any errors, but please be gentle.

Ernir
2010-05-01, 08:15 PM
You probably want to do something about its mobility. Blasphemy becomes a bit less scary if it can't fly into the center of your party. Can you pull of a Dimensional Anchor + Forcecage? Waves of Exhaustion might do the trick, too, you should be able to out-fly a thing that can only fly at 30' with average maneuverability.
But anything you do like that steals an action from counter-SLA-blasting, so be damned sure it's going to work.

And for the love of god, don't come into the fight unbuffed. Have Anticipate Teleportation up if you can.

Arc of Lightning is a pretty good blasting spell for the Druid if the Fiend decides to show up with some buddies. (Important thing here: SR no, targets an unresisted element.)


Are you willing to have the Minotaur thingy die? If it charges far ahead, the DM might be tempted to show off the Pit Fiend by having it start tearing that one to pieces. :smalltongue:

Runestar
2010-05-01, 08:51 PM
Are you willing to have the Minotaur thingy die? If it charges far ahead, the DM might be tempted to show off the Pit Fiend by having it start tearing that one to pieces.

Revivify is a 4th lv spell anyways. :smallamused:

Greenish
2010-05-01, 09:05 PM
Are you willing to have the Minotaur thingy die? If it charges far ahead, the DM might be tempted to show off the Pit Fiend by having it start tearing that one to pieces. :smalltongue:Oh yeah, the good ol' Worf effect (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWorfEffect). It's always a good reason to have a few tagalong NPCs.

Raiki
2010-05-01, 09:05 PM
You probably want to do something about its mobility. Blasphemy becomes a bit less scary if it can't fly into the center of your party. Can you pull of a Dimensional Anchor + Forcecage?

I could be wrong (I'm AFB), but isn't Forcecage an 8-9th level spell? Because nobody in this party has access to those levels yet.


And for the love of god, don't come into the fight unbuffed. Have Anticipate Teleportation up if you can.

Did you miss the part about the permanent ward against all teleportation spells?



Arc of Lightning is a pretty good blasting spell for the Druid if the Fiend decides to show up with some buddies. (Important thing here: SR no, targets an unresisted element.)


Are you willing to have the Minotaur thingy die? If it charges far ahead, the DM might be tempted to show off the Pit Fiend by having it start tearing that one to pieces. :smalltongue:

Actually, both of these are pretty good ideas. I'd avoid letting the Minotaur die if at all possible (maybe the absentee rogue could keep UMDing some scrolls of healing or some shenanigans?), but Arc of Lightning would be a good way to eliminate his friends (if any), and sacrificing the thrall sure is better than sacrificing a party member. Thralls always come back, you see...

~R~

Runestar
2010-05-01, 09:45 PM
SLAs have no verbal component, so a pit fiend can still use them in silence.

Forcecage could work (since it can't teleport), but you still have to contend with its formidable array of SLAs.

Sindri
2010-05-01, 10:51 PM
Fun fact: there's nothing in the Fiend of Possession description saying that the target creature can't be another fiend. It's a one-shot per day, but he'll have a -6 on the save (-2 for being evil, -4 for committing an evil act at the time), so you have a good chance of seriously upgrading your ride.

Also, see if you can hit him with a Mind Fog or something first. If successful, his Will to keep you out will almost certainly fail.

This would probably reveal to the rest of the party who you really are, tho. Better than getting killed!

Sindri
2010-05-01, 10:53 PM
SLAs have no verbal component, so a pit fiend can still use them in silence.


Blasphemy has the [Sonic] descriptor, so it doesn't work in a Silence even if it can be cast.

Runestar
2010-05-01, 11:53 PM
Blasphemy has the [Sonic] descriptor, so it doesn't work in a Silence even if it can be cast.

The area of blasphemy is larger than silence, so you still get a 40-ft spread with a 20-ft hole inside. :smallbiggrin:

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-01, 11:57 PM
The area of blasphemy is larger than silence, so you still get a 40-ft spread with a 20-ft hole inside. :smallbiggrin:

It's also subject to LoE, so Forcecage/Wall of X will stop it.

Runestar
2010-05-02, 12:12 AM
It's also subject to LoE, so Forcecage/Wall of X will stop it.

If you are using the cubed version of forcecage, then how are you damaging the pit fiend? It is just as protected from you are as you are from it.

Divide by Zero
2010-05-02, 12:52 AM
If you are using the cubed version of forcecage, then how are you damaging the pit fiend? It is just as protected from you are as you are from it.

Play a psion with Burrowing Power. Done.

Shalist
2010-05-02, 01:39 AM
1) Put it in the 10' cube to isolate it for the fight.

2) Polymorph someone into a rust monster to take care of the metal minions (just for fun. Large rust monster => dc24 reflex vs. death for the big, lumbering golems :P ).

3) Put a 20' force cage around the 10' cube, and ditch the cube (2 hours/CL, so this could wait for the next day *shrug*)

4) ???

5) profit.

(If you don't want to spring for the 1,500g of ruby dust, just zap the pit fiend with the magnetism spell, and sit back and laugh, nailing him with a few blessed silver coins now and again for kicks).

(Also, anything that blocks the LoE, like a tower shield, or various spells (dispelling screen, etc) could help here, too).

edit: Outsiders still need to breath...would this be a concern in the 10' windowless force cube?

Also, magnetism on the pit fiend + 'major creation' to create 15ish cubic feet (120 gallons) of mercury to drown him in :P

Sindri
2010-05-02, 01:53 AM
edit: Outsiders still need to breath...would this be a concern in the 10' windowless force cube?

It would take 1d6 nonlethal per 15 minutes after the first 3 hours, but it heals 5 nonlethal damage per round. It doesn't make sense from a science point of view, but neither does any other regenerating creature that can create new mass to replace missing body parts

Sindri
2010-05-02, 01:56 AM
Also, magnetism on the pit fiend + 'major creation' to create 15ish cubic feet (120 gallons) of mercury to drown him in :P

all the creation spells specify that it can't be inside a creature, mercury is not magnetic, and 15 cubic feet isn't nearly enough to drown them without these.

Sorry if it seems like I'm just shooting down everybody else's ideas, but it's better if I kill them here than if the GM kills them at the table, followed by your character, right?

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-02, 02:12 AM
Why don't you have psychic reformation? That's stock-standard for every psion I have high enough level to manifest it.

Do you have Overchannel or any CL-boosting items (such as beads of karma or an orange ioun stone)? If so, borrow them from the other party members if need be, and this will go far more easily.

Okay, first of all, figure out where this thing is (or will be when you encounter it, rather) through contact other plane or scry or what have you, then when you're getting close, manifest astral construct with as high of a level as you can, have the party casters buff the hell out of it to give it fire resistance, improved grapple checks, and several layered silence spells on it (and cast grease on it to improve its ability to resist grapple checks, if you can). See if you can't get a shield other spell on it, grant it temporary hit points, and give it +4 to its Strength score via the Muscle option. If you have buffs-inna-bottle (potions), use those on it too. Manifest a couple more constructs for good measure. However, don't let them expire (I love being a constructor for a reason).

Send it in to grapple as soon as you've spotted the pit fiend, have the casters debuff it as hard as they can (see: assay resistance, bestow curse, blindness/deafness, assay resistance, entangling ectoplasm, assay resistance, assay resistance, assay resistance, etc), ready damaging spells vs casting, and do what you can to help the construct out. Manifest a few more while you're at it, if only to keep the fiend busy while you're killing it, and have them join in with the grapple.

See if the casters can't cast a few summon spells to assist as well.

If you have a portable hole or enveloping pit, stuff the fiend and the construct in there. It can't 'port out, so it's stuck until you can prepare some really nasty traps for it.

Oh, and don't forget about magic circles against evil. Heightened, of course. Might fubar your fiend of possession abilities, though.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-02, 02:20 AM
If all else fails, throw some acid fogs and freezing fogs at it and hit it with AoE [death] spells until it dies. Put yourselves in a silence field, and it can't target you with dispels. It can't teleport, so it's pretty well screwed for several rounds. Fill the room with these fogs. Hit it with forcecage and lots and lots of damaging fog, and it'll pretty much be screwed.

Hmm. Greater dispel magic could be a problem. Hard to cast a V/S spell when you're grappled and silenced...

Shalist
2010-05-02, 02:22 AM
The magnetism isn't being cast inside the pit fiend, it's literally a ray spell. The attraction rather forcibly affects all metal, ferrous or nonferrous, within the 30' emanation.

In any event, metal minion motif + super magnet = situation full of win. I mean seriously, the mental imagery of the pit fiend tearing off a minion and throwing it away, just to have it slam right back in his face...being completely engulfed in and smothered by 120 gallons of liquid metal is just the icing on the pit fiend :P


Regeneration does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation.

The real hold up is the pit fiend's 1/year wish, since if nothing else, he could use that to disintegrate his way out of the cube.

edit: Hmm, can't remember where it says how much food/air/etc bigger creatures need.

PId6
2010-05-02, 04:53 AM
Fire Resistance really is the key. Keep the Orb-Wizard in reserve to only interrupt the Pit Fiend's casting. If the Wizard has a high enough initiative and you get a surprise round, he can get a surprise blast in... but he absolutely must have a better initiative than the Fiend or that first round he (and most of the party) will be taken out by the Blasphemy.

Interrupt every casting the Fiend does. Arcane Sight or some other way of knowing when a spell is being cast is important because SLA's don't require verbal, somatic, material, focus, or XP components. They do provoke attacks of opportunity, but don't rely on that since the Pit Fiend has enough Concentration to just cast defensively.

I say interrupt every casting because anything he does is bad for you... plus, if it's interrupted, it loses it's standard action for the round.

If there's enough room, keep your Wizard back far enough and get him a Ring of Evasion and/or things to pick his Reflex Save up as high as possible since he's going to be the target of those 3 quickened Fireballs it can cast.
It's hard to depend on the wizard, since there's at least 50% chance he wouldn't be there and he doesn't actually know Arcane Sight. My fighter thrall does have Mage Slayer, so I'm almost certain to make an AoO if the Pit Fiend "casts" while within my reach. If the wizard's there, he can frame his readied action on me making an AoO against the pit fiend, which would solve the problem of knowing when it is using an SLA. However, Quickened Fireball would "waste" the readied Orb, not to mention there's nothing stopping it from walking out of my reach and casting then (my trip check isn't quite high enough to actually lock it down, and I don't have Standstill).

By myself, I don't know if I can consistently interrupt its castings with AoOs alone. I can only do ~40 damage in one attack without Power Attacking, and my to-hit is shaky enough against AC 44 that I wouldn't actually try Power Attacking for any large amount. With DR, that means that its +29 Concentration will allow it to succeed casting the majority of the time.


On a side note: Give the Pit fiend Negative levels. Drop that CL low enough and Blasphemy is useless.
Forgot about that! Well if the wizard is at the session, he can prepare Maximized Enervation and make the Blasphemy a lot less deadly. Definitely going to do that if possible.


Unfortunately, my skill at optimizing characters is low, and my knowledge of obscure spells and tactics is as well. However, I do have a suggestion. Do you have to fight the Pit Fiend? I mean, sure, it is worth tons of XP and it's evil, but do you have to actually fight it?
Diplomacy would be an option, but it's been made clear to us that this is the pit fiend's tower and that it's reaaally angry at us for tresspassing and killing its minions. And we kind of need to destroy/steal (depending on whom you ask) an evil artifact it keeps in its tower. So that's probably not going to happen. (And I doubt it would be a TPK; the eternally-invisible rogue would probably be alive in any case. :smalltongue:)


Blast it really really hard? I mean, I'd have to see the mechanics of your build, but theoretically a charger should be able to smack it pretty hard with its first hit, especially with enough pre-game buffs dropped on you. Follow that up with enough damage via the wizard (twin spelled 12d6 orbs perhaps should smack it for a good 80 points of damage). With a decent surprise round, this MIGHT actually get him down fast enough to save your hide (bad solution, I know, but still theoretically possible).
I can probably deal ~60ish damage on a charge, which is modified by its DR. Additional damage comes from Bull Rushing, which isn't really dependable due to the Pit Fiend's colossal Str score. This isn't actually a pure charger build but rather meant to be a versatile-ish fighter-type who can charge/bull rush/trip/sunder and even disarm. He doesn't actually have Pounce yet, hence why his damage isn't much higher. I'm also not sure if I can get a nice path to charge through to it, or if the path would be blocked off by minions, so that's uncertain. The wizard can nova for amazing damage with his orbs, but his attack bonus is actually bad enough that AC 21 touch carries a large amount of uncertainty to his attacks. And again, the wizard might not even be there, so I'd prefer a backup plan which doesn't require his presence.


You probably want to do something about its mobility. Blasphemy becomes a bit less scary if it can't fly into the center of your party. Can you pull of a Dimensional Anchor + Forcecage? Waves of Exhaustion might do the trick, too, you should be able to out-fly a thing that can only fly at 30' with average maneuverability.
But anything you do like that steals an action from counter-SLA-blasting, so be damned sure it's going to work.

And for the love of god, don't come into the fight unbuffed. Have Anticipate Teleportation up if you can.

Arc of Lightning is a pretty good blasting spell for the Druid if the Fiend decides to show up with some buddies. (Important thing here: SR no, targets an unresisted element.)


Are you willing to have the Minotaur thingy die? If it charges far ahead, the DM might be tempted to show off the Pit Fiend by having it start tearing that one to pieces. :smalltongue:
Dimensional Anchor isn't necessary, and Forcecage is unavailable. Wizard can't cast it, we don't have the components, and cleric doesn't actually worship a deity so switching domains doesn't work. The dungeon we're in is fairly constricting, so there won't be much room for flying or running. Arc of Lightning is pretty useful though, so I'll be sure to suggest that to the druid. The steel predators we've seen were immune to electricity, but I'm sure there'll be a few enemies which it can actually hit.

Now normally, I wouldn't be opposed to a thrall dying, but in this case there's a bit more on the line. Since the DM ruled that there's no Ethereal Plane on this demiplane, my Fiend of Possession would be shunted right out into the middle of battle if the thrall dies. Due to some bad rolling on my part, Con was a dump stat for my FoP, so I'd prefer that not to happen. I also wouldn't be able to possess anything else while we're on this demiplane, so I'd be fragile and useless for the next few sessions. Not the ideal situation. This also kills any plans that involve possessing the pit fiend, which I'm more than a little disappointed about. :smallfrown:


If your cleric has access to the force domain, he can get force cage as a 7th level spell. Also, there's a level 2 spell in the Complete Champ (pg 128) that lets someone completely substitute one domain for another that their deity offers for days/CL.

-'Nether trail' (BoVD) is a level 1 spell that creates a 20'/CL trail of 'bread crumbs' that outsiders _must_ follow (though obvious danger would give them a second will save).

'Earthbind' (SC pg 76) is a 2nd level spell that eliminates any flight speed a creature might have, grounding him, and keeping him there.

'Lower spell resistance' (drag 114) is a 4th level spell that pretty much guarantees 15 SR off the top, in case that is an issue.

edit:

Impede, (CC 122). A 1st level spelll that keeps the subject from moving from the square. It saves every round, but even when it succeeds, it still has -10 movement.

edit 2:

'Subvert Planar Essence' (CD pg 183) Level 5 spell that creates a 20' bubble where outsiders lose 10 DR and SR (fort save), so the pitfiend would only have DR 5/ .

'Vulnerability' (Drac pg 115) level 5 spell that reduces a target's DR to 5 (will save).

('Heighten' metamagic would, of course, be useful for some of these).

(Ah, can't remember why I was thinking SLA's still used verbal components).

edit 3:

'greater ironguard' (lvl 7, SC) would make you immune to metal golems :P

'Ghorus Toth's Magnetism,' (FR, Unapproachable East pg 49, lvl 6) which makes an object/person so strongly magnetic that every metal creature (or person wearing or holding metal objects) that comes within 30' has to make an opposed strength check (vs. CL +10 strength) or be stuck to them. To say nothing stray metal objects...

'Polymorph' could turn your useless rogue into a giant rust monster. If he's still useless after that, cast the magnet spell on him :P

I suppose the most obvious route is to bury the pit fiend beneath a dogpile of metal minions. It'd be completely stuck, forced to grapple his way to freedom (unlikely) until the spell wears off :P
Cleric doesn't worship a deity and we don't have the spell components for Forcecage, so we can't do that. Most of the spells that allow SR/save are unlikely to work, and it's enough work reducing its SR that we're probably better off sticking to SR: No spells that can still do something on a successful save, or just not targetting it with spells at all. Spells with costly material components and foci also likely aren't available since we'd need to have it on hand. Likewise wizard spells that he doesn't already know aren't available.

Ghorus Toth's Magnetism is hilarious though. I'm definitely casting that on some future character. Unfortunately, the wizard doesn't know the spell so it's not usable now.


Polymorph someone into a rust monster to take care of the metal minions (just for fun. Large rust monster => dc24 reflex vs. death for the big, lumbering golems :P ).
Well... now I know what 4th level spell the druid's casting on my Astral Construct.


Why don't you have psychic reformation? That's stock-standard for every psion I have high enough level to manifest it.
Very limited power/feat slots and bad judgment? I didn't think it would be that useful so I took Sense Danger instead for Expanded Knowledge at 12th level, and I'm definitely regretting that decision. I'm taking it for EK next level and PsyRefing my 12th level EK: Sense Danger into PsyRef and my 15th level EK: PsyRef into Anticipatory Strike.


Do you have Overchannel or any CL-boosting items (such as beads of karma or an orange ioun stone)? If so, borrow them from the other party members if need be, and this will go far more easily.

Okay, first of all, figure out where this thing is (or will be when you encounter it, rather) through contact other plane or scry or what have you, then when you're getting close, manifest astral construct with as high of a level as you can, have the party casters buff the hell out of it to give it fire resistance, improved grapple checks, and several layered silence spells on it (and cast grease on it to improve its ability to resist grapple checks, if you can). See if you can't get a shield other spell on it, grant it temporary hit points, and give it +4 to its Strength score via the Muscle option. If you have buffs-inna-bottle (potions), use those on it too. Manifest a couple more constructs for good measure. However, don't let them expire (I love being a constructor for a reason).

Send it in to grapple as soon as you've spotted the pit fiend, have the casters debuff it as hard as they can (see: assay resistance, bestow curse, blindness/deafness, assay resistance, entangling ectoplasm, assay resistance, assay resistance, assay resistance, etc), ready damaging spells vs casting, and do what you can to help the construct out. Manifest a few more while you're at it, if only to keep the fiend busy while you're killing it, and have them join in with the grapple.

See if the casters can't cast a few summon spells to assist as well.

If you have a portable hole or enveloping pit, stuff the fiend and the construct in there. It can't 'port out, so it's stuck until you can prepare some really nasty traps for it.

Oh, and don't forget about magic circles against evil. Heightened, of course. Might fubar your fiend of possession abilities, though.
That's a very interesting strategy. I don't think we have enough CL boosters between us to get a 7th level AC, but I'll ask around. Didn't take Overchannel because of way not enough feats and because the FoP is meant to just support the thrall, rather than be an offensive caster in its own right. That, and with the number of hp my character has, 5d8 damage can literally kill him on a bad roll (I have Vigor, but that's still an annoyance). With Polymorph though, that might still work with just my current level 5 AC. It's certainly worth trying if that's what it takes to stop Blasphemy. No Portable Hole, but I'm sure we can find something to do against a chain-grappled pit fiend.


If all else fails, throw some acid fogs and freezing fogs at it and hit it with AoE [death] spells until it dies. Put yourselves in a silence field, and it can't target you with dispels. It can't teleport, so it's pretty well screwed for several rounds. Fill the room with these fogs. Hit it with forcecage and lots and lots of damaging fog, and it'll pretty much be screwed.

Hmm. Greater dispel magic could be a problem. Hard to cast a V/S spell when you're grappled and silenced...
Unfortunately, fog spells are almost exclusively sor/wiz, and our wizard is a bit light on non-blasty spells. He does have plain old Solid Fog though, so if there are some good druid/cleric fog spells, this strategy could work.


Currently, the game plan is to drain the pit fiend's levels, interrupt its actions, cluster-grapple it in uncomfortable places, rust-monster the golems, and then apply lethal spiked chain to forehead, maybe with a few steps in between. I'm going to ask my DM if Blasphemy acts like Holy Word and be useless against deafened enemies. If so, we won't even need Silence. If not, things are harder but hopefully still doable.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-02, 02:26 PM
If Deafness prevents Blasphemy, for easy Deafness... Have the Cleric Curse someone with it. He can later Remove Curse. Just choose to fail the save.

Keld Denar
2010-05-02, 04:35 PM
Blasphemy's primary effect does not offer a save.

It does if you have Quick Recovery, which I mentioned in my post. Quick Recovery allows you to make a save to recover from various daze and stun and nausiate effects, even if those effects don't normally allow saves. The save to break free is calculated normally (10 + spell level + ability or 10 + 1/2 HD + ability if its not a spell).

Its a GREAT feat for any high level character with a decent will save who feels threatened by Blasphemy.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-02, 04:42 PM
If Deafness prevents Blasphemy, for easy Deafness... Have the Cleric Curse someone with it. He can later Remove Curse. Just choose to fail the save.

Or cast blindness/deafness.

Then the cleric can drop a single area dispel to get rid of all of them, when no longer needed.

Zergrusheddie
2010-05-02, 05:03 PM
I think you are in for a world of hurt with that party. Blasphemy is going to hurt but even then he is still a Pit Fiend. He can summon in a friends. If he brings in a Bone Devil, they could wall you up with Ice. If he brings in a Horned Devil, that's a CR16 creature that might be a challenge without Mr. Pit Fiend still.

A problem is going to be Power Word: Stun. Your Shocktrooper Minotaur might have 151 HP, but everyone else gets to contend with 1d4 or 2d4 rounds of being stunned no save, just SR. The Wizard is going to be out of the fight completely round 1. Of course, Mass Hold Monster and summoning in a Horned Devil to CDG the party is also a huge problem. Catching Meteor Swarm in the face (8d6 + 24d6 no save) would probably be enough to tip someone over the edge.

I would almost call shenanigans on the DM but maybe you guys have a chance.

Best of luck.
-Eddie

PId6
2010-05-08, 04:39 PM
Well, we had the session last night, and it was... interesting.

Pre-game, I had searched through SRD and Spell Compendium for every possible cleric/druid buff that could potentially be useful and made a list. Since we knew exactly what room the pit fiend was in, we waited before going in and cast every one of those buffs on the three of us (as predicted, the wizard didn't show up).

The DM ruled that you do need to hear Blasphemy to be subjected to its effects, so our cleric also cast Deafness on herself and the druid and I manifested Mindlink on everyone so we could communicate. Since we were all buffed with nearly 20 different spells and Blasphemy was assured not to work, we thought we should take a direct approach to kill the thing and jumped right into the breach (literally; we broke through the wall).

Inside, we saw two spellcasters, two Steel Predators, and two more Steel Predators that were obviously illusory to our True Seeing due to the Scout's Headbands we activated beforehand. The pit fiend was behind all of them, and invisible, which would have been a lot more frightening if we couldn't actually see him. Cue initiative.

The pit fiend won initiative, and proceeded to "call in reinforcements," which caused four more Steel Predators to jump down into the room. Since it didn't know that we had True Seeing, we weren't fooled at all by the illusion. On my turn, I charged. I had polymorphed into a hydra beforehand and now I rushed at it with twelve heads salivating for its blood, Leap Attacking right before reaching it, full Power Attacking in a Heedless Charge. Twelve attacks, a few lucky rolls, a critical hit, and a Bull Rush later, the pit fiend was on the ground unconscious and well into negatives.

Funny enough, right after downing the pit fiend, the DM told me to roll a Will save. Being Resolute, I was confident that my +26 to Will saves would be enough. Natural 1. I was quite terrified for a moment at what that could possibly be and whether I would be turning around and charging into the party, until I was told that I now have -2 to my rolls for the rest of the encounter.

Using all our buffs, CoDzilla and I easily cleaned up the rest of the encounter and we subsequently coup de grace'd the pit fiend. With all the preparation we did, it was almost disappointing how easily it went down. Incidentally, Polymorph is now banned in our campaign. :smalltongue:

Flickerdart
2010-05-08, 04:48 PM
Impressive! Use the XP you gained wisely.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-08, 04:53 PM
Using all our buffs, CoDzilla and I easily cleaned up the rest of the encounter and we subsequently coup de grace'd the pit fiend. With all the preparation we did, it was almost disappointing how easily it went down. Incidentally, Polymorph is now banned in our campaign. :smalltongue:

Friends don't let friends polymorph into Hydras.:smallbiggrin:

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-08, 11:33 PM
Friends don't let friends polymorph into Hydras.:smallbiggrin:No, fiends don't let friends polymorph into hydras.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-08, 11:35 PM
No, fiends don't let friends polymorph into hydras.

http://www.instantrimshot.com/

Divide by Zero
2010-05-09, 12:34 AM
No, fiends don't let friends polymorph into hydras.

Not as good as the "fiends in low places" pun I made last night.

Milskidasith
2010-05-09, 12:38 AM
Not as good as the "fiends in low places" pun I made last night.

These are all fiendishly clever, my fiends, but I am afraid that the overuse of lame fiend puns amonst fiends causes massive amounts of groaning and annoyance at the fiend initiating the puns.

With fiends like me, who needs enemies?