[3.5] ninth level blast spells

[Tyrrell]

After a tremendous number of sessions of play my elven generalist wizard/incantator/archmage is on the cusp of 17th level. I'd like to get at least one very nice boom spell for him. I know that boom spells are often thought of as poor choices but my party is caster heavy and when the sorcerer the mystic theurge and I all let loose with the damage spells at the same time we can often end encounter before any sort of control is necessary. SO yes I'm taking other stuff but I'd like to get the name of the very best boom spell available.

[Darkxarth]

Meteor Swarm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/meteorSwarm.htm) is about as "boom" as it gets.

That said, Power Word: Kill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/powerWordKill.htm) isn't terrible if you really need to kill something: now.

Wail of the Banshee (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wailOfTheBanshee.htm) is also nice for killing, although sans actual boom, again. Just make sure not to stand near your allies.

[Kylarra]

Meteor Swarm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/meteorSwarm.htm) is about as "boom" as it gets.

That said, Power Word: Kill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/powerWordKill.htm) isn't terrible if you really need to kill something: now.

Wail of the Banshee (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wailOfTheBanshee.htm) is also nice for killing, although sans actual boom, again. Just make sure not to stand near your allies.I'd just like to say that your sig quote is amusingly appropriate in this context.

[Myou]

Maw of Chaos. SpC.

[Hawk7915]

Sphere of Ultimate Destruction (Complete Arcane): Create a ball of Disintegrate. The ball deals 34d6 damage if you hit on a touch attack and it fails its fort save (so no evasion for 0 damage), and 5d6 even if they succeed. It lasts 17 rounds.

[Darkxarth]

I'd just like to say that your sig quote is amusingly appropriate in this context.
Ha! That did not even occur to me. Thanks for pointing it out. :smallwink::smallbiggrin:

[Prodan]

Either Shadily or Majorly Create some antimatter

[lsfreak]

+1 Maw of Chaos. Uncapped 1d6/lvl untyped damage a round. If they take damage, Will save or lose your turn.

[PhoenixRivers]

Maximized Chain Lightning. Get a Greater Rod of Empower, and you'll be throwin' some significant amount of hurt.

[Optimystik]

Meteor Swarm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/meteorSwarm.htm) is about as "boom" as it gets.

Apocalypse From The Sky says hi

[Deth Muncher]

Maximized Chain Lightning. Get a Greater Rod of Empower, and you'll be throwin' some significant amount of hurt.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2008/12/unlimited-power_opt.jpg

Anyway, I'll throw another +1 onto Maw of Chaos, as well as pointing out the feat in Dragonlance that removes caps for damage/level on spells, so you could use a lower level spell and amp it up.

[Greenish]

Either Shadily or Majorly Create some antimatterMaybe in the setting antimatter is actually marshmallow? You'll feel pretty silly with your large but tasty cube of sugary softness when the dragon's breath weapon is ready again.

[Zergrusheddie]

Locate City Bomb Heighten to level 9?

[Prodan]

Maybe in the setting antimatter is actually marshmallow? You'll feel pretty silly with your large but tasty cube of sugary softness when the dragon's breath weapon is ready again.

http://www.perezstart.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/ghostbustersscreen1.jpg

[hamishspence]

Apocalypse From The Sky says hi

That one does have a few drawbacks though- corruption costs, 1 day casting time, requires an artifact.

Do the ninth level spells have to be wizard ones- is there a way for wizards to gain access to cleric spells?

If so, Erupt (Serpent Kingdoms) has a shorter range, but less drawbacks. 100 ft radius per caster level, 10 pts of fire damage per caster level, Fort save for half damage. It has a 1 minute casting time.

[Broccoli21]

AVASCULAR MASS!
:smallfrown::smallbiggrin:

[Kobold-Bard]

Apocalypse From The Sky says hi

Not the easiest thing in the world to cast mind you.

+1 Sphere of Ultimate Dstruction. It's like Sphere of Annihilation-Lite.

Maybe Energy-Substitute Meteor Swarm to Sonic to give it a proper BOOM!! effect.

[aivanther]

My favorite boom is disjunction...cause the booming is the enemies' heart at realizing they lost a good chunk of their magic items.

The second boom is your head when your mates slug you for destroying the loot...

[Optimystik]

That one does have a few drawbacks though- corruption costs, 1 day casting time, requires an artifact.

Hey, he said "9th-level blasting spells" - he didn't specify they had to be easy to cast :smalltongue:

On aggregate, it's hard to beat the total damage meted out to every commoner, structure and animal in 10 miles.


Do the ninth level spells have to be wizard ones- is there a way for wizards to gain access to cleric spells?

Yes - Rainbow Servant.

[Dr Bwaa]

Maw of Chaos. SpC.

Yet another +1 for this. This spell is killer. AoE 1d6 untyped dmg/lvl (no cap) for 1 round/lvl. Anyone in the area has to make a will save or lose a turn--meaning they take the damage again and have to make a save again next turn...

Of course, there's always the option of pulling Enervate shenanigans. That works too.

[Optimystik]

Extended Maximized Streamers

[Kobold-Bard]

Get some way of getting free explosive spell and stick it on AftS? 10 mile/level of people blasted to the spell radius.

[Lycanthromancer]

Maybe Energy-Substitute Meteor Swarm to Sonic to give it a proper BOOM!! effect.Frankly, meteor swarm sucks. It deals very little damage, especially for a 9th level spell; heck, I'd hesitate in taking it as a 7th level spell, just because it's so bleh.

Metamagic the heck out of an orb of force/sonic/acid and Chain the thing. It'll make meteor swarm cry.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Extended Maximized Streamers

You are evil... I aprove

[hamishspence]

On aggregate, it's hard to beat the total damage meted out to every commoner, structure and animal in 10 miles.


True- you'd have to be very high level for Erupt to even approach that in range. It does do more damage to each thing, though.

[lsfreak]

Of course, there's always the option of pulling Enervate shenanigans. That works too.

One of my favorite (if situation-specific) 'blast' spells is Fell Draining Born of Three Thunders Freezing Fog. God forbid you don't have FoM or teleportation.

[Dvandemon]

Sphere of Ultimate Destruction (Complete Arcane): Create a ball of Disintegrate. The ball deals 34d6 damage if you hit on a touch attack and it fails its fort save (so no evasion for 0 damage), and 5d6 even if they succeed. It lasts 17 rounds.

On a similar note, there's Disintegrationg Burst, basically like Disintegrate with a longer range and 20 ft radius. Pale in comparison though

[Eldariel]

Maw of Chaos is indeed the best Boom spell on level 9. Sphere of Ultimate Annihilation is decent, but not quite as powerful as a level 9 ought to be. Maw though, is precisely what you want; Twin it with a Rod for...y'know, massive damage?

[Myou]

Extended Maximized Streamers

Hey, hey, let's not go nuts! :smalleek:

[Kobold-Bard]

What is Streamers and what does it do?

[Eldariel]

What is Streamers and what does it do?

It's a spell that deals damage. Level 6 from Shining South that puts a bunch of Streamers (attackable) to follow a target and whenever the target takes any action, they deal damage to him.

[AslanCross]

AVASCULAR MASS!
:smallfrown::smallbiggrin:

Avascular Mass is only Lv 8 though, and is more of a debuff than a blaster.

I typically prefer stacking metamagic at this level, especially if I'm playing a Silver Pyromancer (Resistances? Immunities? What're those?) Sacred Fire + Empowered + Maximized + Explosive Fireball is fun.

But yeah, Maw of Chaos and Sphere of Ultimate Destruction do indeed deal real Soviet damage.

[Kobold-Bard]

It's a spell that deals damage. Level 6 from Shining South that puts a bunch of Streamers (attackable) to follow a target and whenever the target takes any action, they deal damage to him.

So at best they lose a turn doing nothing to make the Streamers vanish, and at worst the take 15d6 damage if you use all three of your actions.

Actually, this spell would drive Factotums crazy, which is awesome :smallbiggrin:

[Eldariel]

So at best they lose a turn doing nothing to make the Streamers vanish, and at worst the take 15d6 damage if you use all three of your actions.

Actually, this spell would drive Factotums crazy, which is awesome :smallbiggrin:

Far, far worse than that. Any action that would destroy the Streamers generally triggers an attack by them and when there's 4 Streamers attacking you, they'll all hit you for 5d10 each. Oh, it's a level 5 spell; I remembered wrong. Get some extra Streamers out of the deal, increase the damage a bit and...yeah.

Basically, it starts off at 5d10 while disrupting actions (hope they don't require Concentration), grows to 20d10 and yeah. It's a rather nasty customer. They last round/level so opp has to spend next ~9-20 rounds not doing anything if he wants to avoid damage.

[Optimator]

I always found Detonate from PHBII fun.

[Lycanthromancer]

Silent image. Take levels in shadowcraft mage and you can cast apocalypse from the sky with no material component.

[Greenish]

Silent image. Take levels in shadowcraft mage and you can cast apocalypse from the sky with no material component.Do you even need a 9th level slot for that?

[Private-Prinny]

Do you even need a 9th level slot for that?

Yes, as well as the Heighten Spell and Earth Spell feats. Basically, you heighten the spell to 9th level, which Earth Spell then makes 10th level, with a caster level increase of +8/9, and you can then cast 9th level spells from that slot, with the save DCs of a 10th level spell.

[nargbop]

Crushing Fist of Spite from Book of Vile Darkness. OK, so it's not so much a blasting spell as a heathen-crushing punchjuggernaut , but it will do. It's technically Eeeeeeevil, so take that into account.

Permanent CFoS can guard your BBEG castle gates. Whee!

[Lycanthromancer]

Explosive runes.

No, really.

[Greenish]

Yes, as well as the Heighten Spell and Earth Spell feats. Basically, you heighten the spell to 9th level, which Earth Spell then makes 10th level, with a caster level increase of +8/9, and you can then cast 9th level spells from that slot, with the save DCs of a 10th level spell.Hmm, yeah, I'd forgotten how much higher level shadowcraft magi could get their spells (I thought they might've been able to cast AftS as 8th level spell). Oh well, with residual metamagic, they can cast the next one as a lvl 1 spell.

[Doc Roc]

Maw of Chaos (9th)
Streamers (Maximized)
Avuncular Mass (8th)
Orb of Force
Orb of Acid


Fail to have at least two of these, and you fail to be a blaster.

Feats I recommend:

Residual Magic
Echoing is probably worth it for an incantatrix.

[Drekk]

I always found Detonate from PHBII fun.

I recommend Detonate for pure style points...

"Glancing briefly at the ogre charging me, ________ utters a whispered word...A gesture follows. And the beast detonates in a roaring inferno, smoking gore painting the newly formed crater in shades of crimson. With that, my character turns back to the fight and weaves a quickened buff in preparation for a true threat..."

[Animefunkmaster]

Frankly, meteor swarm sucks.

I always liked it for my melee rogue. UMD for ranged touch sneak attack and the explosion to take out underlings. Granted when I fired them off I fired a few off with body outside of body scrolls.

[Doc Roc]

re: detonate
Shame it's not actually particularly great, given that it's a (fire) spell, that it caps at 20d6, and that it isn't a double threat.

[Prodan]

Feats I recommend:

Residual Magic
Echoing is probably worth it for an incantatrix.

But what about Reserves of Strength?

[Doc Roc]

But what about Reserves of Strength?
I don't recommend that. Not unless we want to nuke the site from orbit.
To clarify, it is ridiculously, agonizingly, head-breakingly good. It's way too good.

[Prodan]

I don't recommend that. That's like recommending cocaine.

Cocaine is used in surgery as a topical anesthetic for eye operations.

[Lycanthromancer]

I always liked it for my melee rogue. UMD for ranged touch sneak attack and the explosion to take out underlings. Granted when I fired them off I fired a few off with body outside of body scrolls.Hardly a standard issue use, but for the cost of a scroll of meteor swarm you could get a wand of Twinned, Split Ray'd, Repeating orb of X (Now With Metamagic Reducers!).

[Doc Roc]

Cocaine is used in surgery as a topical anesthetic for eye operations.

It's true! They also used to use glass knives.
What I'm getting at is that there's no reason to haul out the specialized hardware for this one. We can get by with just the run of the mill.

[Darkxarth]

Apocalypse From The Sky says hi

Thus, the qualifier "about." I knew others would show up with better 9th-level spells.

Also, isn't that technically an Epic spell?

[Icewraith]

Iceberg (Spell Compendium or Frostburn, not sure which)

No-save area damage and it buries its targets. Strictly superior to Obedient Avalanche (One is from SpC, on is FB).

[Divide by Zero]

Also, isn't that technically an Epic spell?

No, you prepare and cast it in a 9th-level slot. It just requires an artifact as a material component. However, if you do take it epic, and grab Ignore Material Components, then it becomes quite a bit easier to cast.

[Doc Roc]

Iceberg (Spell Compendium or Frostburn, not sure which)

No-save area damage and it buries its targets. Strictly superior to Obedient Avalanche (One is from SpC, on is FB).

There's also Ice Ship in frostburn, which combined with a decanter of endless water gave rise to the legendary wizarding sport, Thunk! which is played by flying thousands of feet up, scrying the ground below you for an unsuspecting fighter and then activating the decanter to provide a stream so as to satisfy the conjuration requirement of a suitable environment.

Next, you cast Ice Ship into the stream, and ride it down, opting to stop falling about 20 feet up.

THUNK!

Bonus points are awarded for confirmed kills, and playing a guitar on the way down. Recently, complaints have arisen regarding the lack of a truly coherent scoring mechanism.

[Runestar]

That one does have a few drawbacks though- corruption costs, 1 day casting time, requires an artifact.


Which is why no one actually casts the spell. When they do, it is by replicating it via shadowcraft mage, reducing the casting time to just 1 standard action and eschewing the need for an artifact as the component. :smallbiggrin:

[Redshirt Army]

I've always liked Iceberg from Frostburn - a fair chunk of automatic damage in an area,and they have to make saves or suffocate from being buried. Not to mention the hilarity of you DROPPING AN ICEBERG ON THEM. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: CURSE YOU NINJAS!

[Ravens_cry]

Major Creation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/majorcreation.htm): Uranium 235. 52 kilograms or more (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_mass).
Hey, the laws of physics are the same as our world unless otherwise stated, and no source book I know of says Uranium 235 isn't fissionable. And it's far easier to get your hands on a chip of the stuff then antimatter. If you plan on surviving, have your Simulacrum do it (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm).
I have become Death, Destroyer of Campaigns.

[Greenish]

Major Creation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/majorcreation.htm): Uranium 235. 52 kilograms or more (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_mass).
Hey, the laws of physics are the same as our world unless otherwise stated, and no source book I know of says Uranium 235 isn't fissionable. And it's far easier to get your hands on a chip of the stuff then antimatter. If you plan on surviving, have your Simulacrum do it (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm).
I have become Death, Destroyer of Campaigns.Props for the reference. :smallamused:

[ghashxx]

Iceberg (Spell Compendium or Frostburn, not sure which)

No-save area damage and it buries its targets. Strictly superior to Obedient Avalanche (One is from SpC, on is FB).

This, this, and more of this. It's a 20d6 and you're buried w/in a 20' radius with no save, then from 20-40' it's a save that will let you either take 1/2 damage or not be buried (don't remember which one), and then from 40'-60' it's a save for both 1/2 damage and no buried.

It's a "Snow falls, everyone dies" kind of spell. Even when they survive the straight fall damage, they've still got to dig their way out while trying to not suffocate. So much good times with that.

[Doc Roc]

I don't think this works as well as you want. It takes a considerable amount of knowledge about nuclear physics to engineer the atomic bomb in such a way as to actually insure a run-away fission. Further, purity is a concern, and may mean that you die instantly on summoning the material, or that you get uselessly impure ore.

Worse, if there's a knowledge base regarding it, no matter how esoteric, it becomes a hugely valuable substance, making it wildly harder to conjure. Finally, there's strong in-verse evidence that radiation manifests as a sort of magic, meaning that probably you can't actually use the * Creation series for this.

As for antimatter, you'd need to know about it, which would be extraordinarily hard in any real campaign. Further, you have no guarantee that it won't pull in Watchers or inevitables. I'm sure there's an inevitable for rendering a world uninhabitable.

[Ravens_cry]

I don't think this works as well as you want. It takes a considerable amount of knowledge about nuclear physics to engineer the atomic bomb in such a way as to actually insure a run-away fission. Further, purity is a concern, and may mean that you die instantly on summoning the material, or that you get uselessly impure ore.
It's dead simple.
You want to summon, or rather you want your Snow Clone to summon, the pure isotope. Ever heard of a gun-type nuclear device? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-type_fission_weapon) It's just shooting one piece of nuclear material at another. This is even simpler, merely conjuring a supercritical amount.


Worse, if there's a knowledge base regarding it, no matter how esoteric, it becomes a hugely valuable substance, making it wildly harder to conjure.
Rare metals are conjured for 1 round/level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/majorcreation.htm). A nuclear weapon critical reaction takes a fraction of a second.

Finally, there's strong in-verse evidence that radiation manifests as a sort of magic, meaning that probably you can't actually use the * Creation series for this.

D&D doesn't have a verse. It has a default setting, but not a 'verse per say.



As for antimatter, you'd need to know about it, which would be extraordinarily hard in any real campaign. Further, you have no guarantee that it won't pull in Watchers or inevitables. I'm sure there's an inevitable for rendering a world uninhabitable.
Antimatter wouldn't work anyway as you need a small chip of it as a material component. Your not going to be in danger from holding a chip of Uranium for the short period of time it takes to conjure it.

[Doc Roc]

So this doesn't address the consideration of How Do You Know About Atoms, much less critical mass, much less which isotope of uranium is fissionable.

Supra-critical amounts depend on the actual physical configuration of the mass, as well as a couple of ambient conditions such as rate of neutron absorption and reflection in the surrounding area, etc. The problem is that you want a certain exponential rate of runaway in your fissioning mass, which means a particular arrangement for even the simple gun-types. Worse, how the bloody heck do you know what critical mass is? Are you going to summon what appear to be useless lumps of rare metal over and over at random and at a progression of weights until you get something that goes boom without killing you? Basically, in short, No.

[Lycanthromancer]

Antimatter wouldn't work anyway as you need a small chip of it as a material component. Your not going to be in danger from holding a chip of Uranium for the short period of time it takes to conjure it.The psionic version creates it from ectoplasm, and thus needs no material components. :smallamused:


So this doesn't address the consideration of How Do You Know About Atoms, much less critical mass, much less which isotope of uranium is fissionable.Mid-level wizards are some of the most intelligent and knowledgeable creatures in any and all universes, including gods (by the rules, considerably moreso than gods).

If these things exist, wizards can make Knowledge checks to know about them.

After all, the brightest minds in all of real-world history are likely no more than 22 Int, maybe 25 for idiot savants (like Dustin Hoffman in Rain Man). Wizards can regularly get into the high 40s fairly easily, and have Knowledge checks that would make omnipotent gods jealous.

[Doc Roc]

No, they're the smartest by the standards of their times, and worse, that metric of estimation for intelligence is a fluff thing only, not a pure mechanic. We have no solid mechanism of correlation. All we know is that they're smart and they live in a fantasy world. If this really WAS set in the Dying Earth, not just loosely based on it, then we'd be in trouble. The fact of the matter, though, is that without the mechanism to begin investigate, even the greatest of minds is wasted. In most settings, there's not even the scientific method. How do you propose you learned where to start?


Worse, there exists no knowledge(atomic physics) without GM consent. No knowledge(physics) even. The closest you'll get is a profession(engineering). You can't just say "I'm smart because I have a high int." Sure, that's true, but it's mechanically meaningless. There are no levers by which you can easily explore this option without letting your GM know what you are doing. And him simply shutting you down.

[Ravens_cry]

So this doesn't address the consideration of How Do You Know About Atoms, much less critical mass, much less which isotope of uranium is fissionable.

Supra-critical amounts depend on the actual physical configuration of the mass, as well as a couple of ambient conditions such as rate of neutron absorption and reflection in the surrounding area, etc. The problem is that you want a certain exponential rate of runaway in your fissioning mass, which means a particular arrangement for even the simple gun-types. Worse, how the bloody heck do you know what critical mass is? Are you going to summon what appear to be useless lumps of rare metal over and over at random until you get something that goes boom? Basically, in short, No.
That's the fluff part, and if scientists can do research to find out how to make metal that goes boom, why can't a wizard, the scientist of fantasy? If anything it could be fun adventure hook. You could have a message, from an apprentice, fearful of the repercussions or maybe from a nuke blasted future, telling you of a great danger, and you have to race to stop a wizard undertaking this research. And of you fail, well. . .
Boom (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16heorrfsgY&feature=related).

[Doc Roc]

Sure, but then it's not a campaign killer, it's a campaign starter. You know, up until T-0.

My issue, basically, is that it's not fluff if you want to build things there are no good mechanics for. If you want that fluff, then that's between you and the GM.

[Ravens_cry]

Sure, but then it's not a campaign killer, it's a campaign starter. You know, up until T-0.

My issue, basically, is that it's not fluff if you want to build things there are no good mechanics for. If you want that fluff, then that's between you and the GM.

The only lack of mechanics is what it actually does specifically, or how you would know this information. Maybe your a physicist from a world like ours that came through in a portal opened from a world with magic,and you were intrigued by it, using your skills in research and study to learn the rules of new universe. Maybe you are a mad wizard who wishes to make things go boom.
Really though, suggesting things like this is just me getting my inner munchkin out, letting off steam to stop them from taking over my psyche.

[absolmorph]

Not the easiest thing in the world to cast mind you.

+1 Sphere of Ultimate Dstruction. It's like Sphere of Annihilation-Lite.

Maybe Energy-Substitute Meteor Swarm to Sonic to give it a proper BOOM!! effect.
Energy-Admixture (Sonic) Meteor Swarm would be cooler (http://images.uulyrics.com/cover/d/dragonforce/album-sonic-firestorm.jpg), but a bit tougher.

[Doc Roc]

The only lack of mechanics is what it actually does specifically, or how you would know this information. Maybe your a physicist from a world like ours that came through in a portal opened from a world with magic,and you were intrigued by it, using your skills in research and study to learn the rules of new universe. Maybe you are a mad wizard who wishes to make things go boom.
Really though, suggesting things like this is just me getting my inner munchkin out, letting off steam to stop them from taking over my psyche.

Speaking as a munchkin, if you brought this to the club house, I think we'd all look at you funny. ;)
We're pretty much about Lollies, Pop, and Guilds.


Energy-Admixture (Sonic) Meteor Swarm would be cooler (http://images.uulyrics.com/cover/d/dragonforce/album-sonic-firestorm.jpg), but a bit tougher.

Cooler, but not as good as some of the other options at lower levels.

[Flickerdart]

That's the fluff part, and if scientists can do research to find out how to make metal that goes boom, why can't a wizard, the scientist of fantasy? If anything it could be fun adventure hook. You could have a message, from an apprentice, fearful of the repercussions or maybe from a nuke blasted future, telling you of a great danger, and you have to race to stop a wizard undertaking this research. And of you fail, well. . .
Boom (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16heorrfsgY&feature=related).
It took us millenia to go from "I hit you with sword and you fall down" to "I hit you with thermonuclear device and you evaporate". Even the ultimate intellect simply doesn't have the knowledge base or the time to make an advance that far, inventing not one but several fields of science in the process. They might get as far as proto-muskets. With a generous DM.

[Greenish]

It took us millenia to go from "I hit you with sword and you fall down" to "I hit you with thermonuclear device and you evaporate". Even the ultimate intellect simply doesn't have the knowledge base or the time to make an advance that far, inventing not one but several fields of science in the process. They might get as far as proto-muskets. With a generous DM.Well, it only took a few centuries to go from "I hit you with a steel sword" to "I hit you with a H-bomb".

And of course, on geological timescale, we've gone from stones and sharp sticks to intercontinental doomsday bombs in a blink of an eye.

[Ravens_cry]

It took us millenia to go from "I hit you with sword and you fall down" to "I hit you with thermonuclear device and you evaporate". Even the ultimate intellect simply doesn't have the knowledge base or the time to make an advance that far, inventing not one but several fields of science in the process. They might get as far as proto-muskets. With a generous DM.
Muskets are in the DMG. They can easily be part of the world the DM decides upon. As for lack of time, what about lich, elan, or warforged? With an immortal being, what are a few millennia?
Besides, there are magical means of gathering information that would provide leaps of knowledge that are not available to mundane researchers.
And, as already mentioned, you could come to this world already possessing the knowledge with the right back story.

[Doc Roc]

So basically, you need an immortal player character who is an extremely powerful wizard with an immense amount of time on his hands, and no better way to wreak torrential havoc than a nuke, as well as a permissive GM. We call this a can-opener-inside-a-can.

I can't, by the way, think of any good actual 9th level blast spells other than the already-mentioned Maw of Chaos.

[Ravens_cry]

So basically, you need an immortal player character who is an extremely powerful wizard with an immense amount of time on his hands, and no better way to wreak torrential havoc than a nuke, as well as a permissive GM. We call this a can-opener-inside-a-can.
You can be immortal from level 1. You can be an extremely powerful wizard in a remarkably short period if you're an adventurer. The rest is a matter of time and effort.

[Doc Roc]

You can be immortal from level 1. You can be an extremely powerful wizard in a remarkably short period if you're an adventurer. The rest is a matter of time and effort.

And GM permission. So I just don't think it's really relevant to a real game.

[Ravens_cry]

And GM permission.
Isn't everything? Rule Zero can change any rule.

[Doc Roc]

Isn't everything? Rule Zero can change any rule.

No, most things rely on a relatively sane GM, not someone willing to let you casually nuke their town based on some deeply questionable approaches to meta-knowledge.
I don't want to come across as a STOP_HAVING_FUN_GUYS guy but basically, mcdude rolls up in here with a request for help re: actual spells in an actual game.

[Ravens_cry]

No, most things rely on a relatively sane GM, not someone willing to let you casually nuke their town based on some deeply questionable approaches to meta-knowledge.
Oh I would never do it, and no sane DM would ever allow it. But then, no sane DM would allow Pun-Pun, and this is hardly Pun-Pun.

[Doc Roc]

Oh I would never do it, and no sane DM would ever allow it. But then, no sane DM would allow Pun-Pun, and this is hardly Pun-Pun.

Pun-Pun has the distinct advantage of being a cleverly told legend, used to end a deep and ongoing line of inquiry into What Is The Limit, and to also found a really interesting niche-within-a-niche-within-a-niche about how do we kill Pun-Pun?

Related to OP:
I feel like I'm forgetting a couple REALLY good spells.

So far we've got:
Iceberg
Maw Of Chaos
Avuncular Mass
the Orb series
Streamers

[Prodan]

Melf's Unicorn Arrows is a fun spell.

[Private-Prinny]

What about a Metamagic'd Wings of Flurry?

[Doc Roc]

Good catch!

[Lycanthromancer]

Metamagic added on to scorching ray, so long as you have Searing Spell.

Also, metamagicked telekinesis? I'm sure there are some fun ones out there that will let you deal absolutely crazygonuts damage using shrink item and some Colossal-sized objects.

[PhoenixRivers]

Speaking as a munchkin, if you brought this to the club house, I think we'd all look at you funny. ;)
We're pretty much about Lollies, Pop, and Guilds.

I'd give the rationale to an Omnificer. That's probably about it.

[Akal Saris]

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2008/12/unlimited-power_opt.jpg

Anyway, I'll throw another +1 onto Maw of Chaos, as well as pointing out the feat in Dragonlance that removes caps for damage/level on spells, so you could use a lower level spell and amp it up.

I just saw this movie again today. It hurts to remember it :(

[Thespianus]

Anyway, I'll throw another +1 onto Maw of Chaos, as well as pointing out the feat in Dragonlance that removes caps for damage/level on spells
ohh.. Could you please point it out a little more precisely? :)

Where can I find this? :smalltongue:

EDIT: My bad. Didn't know / google that there was an actual Dragonlance setting for D20/3.5. Now I know better. Sorry.

[TheMadLinguist]

IMC, all matter is infinitely divisible. No such thing as atoms.

This also means, technically speaking, magic never is in violation of conservation laws.

[Deth Muncher]

ohh.. Could you please point it out a little more precisely? :)

Where can I find this? :smalltongue:

EDIT: My bad. Didn't know / google that there was an actual Dragonlance setting for D20/3.5. Now I know better. Sorry.

Yeah, it's cool. People already named it but didn't connect it with this post (maybe) - that's the Reserves of Strength thing that was brought up earlier.

[Thespianus]

And of course, on geological timescale, we've gone from stones and sharp sticks to intercontinental doomsday bombs in a blink of an eye.

Then again, in the geological perspective, our "doomsday bombs" doesn't change anything at all:

- "Oh, mammals? Uhm..no, it doesn't ring a bell." ;)

[Myou]

I don't think this works as well as you want. It takes a considerable amount of knowledge about nuclear physics to engineer the atomic bomb in such a way as to actually insure a run-away fission. Further, purity is a concern, and may mean that you die instantly on summoning the material, or that you get uselessly impure ore.

Worse, if there's a knowledge base regarding it, no matter how esoteric, it becomes a hugely valuable substance, making it wildly harder to conjure. Finally, there's strong in-verse evidence that radiation manifests as a sort of magic, meaning that probably you can't actually use the * Creation series for this.

As for antimatter, you'd need to know about it, which would be extraordinarily hard in any real campaign. Further, you have no guarantee that it won't pull in Watchers or inevitables. I'm sure there's an inevitable for rendering a world uninhabitable.

You can't actually make antimatter at all, since it's not matter. xD

[hamishspence]

No, you prepare and cast it in a 9th-level slot. It just requires an artifact as a material component. However, if you do take it epic, and grab Ignore Material Components, then it becomes quite a bit easier to cast.

The BoVD errata clarifies that it's a Focus, not a Material Component.

This may provide no-component shenanigans.

[dobu]

Erupt.

A spell from Serpent Kingdom (*shudder*)
Cleric 9. 1min casting time, 10damage per casterlevel, fort halves (in your face, evasion!), 100ft./lvl burst and other goodies (catching on fire, heat metal effect).

basically you open up a vulcano.

[Doc Roc]

Then again, in the geological perspective, our "doomsday bombs" doesn't change anything at all:

- "Oh, mammals? Uhm..no, it doesn't ring a bell." ;)

See, that's the thing. IF you let in real physics, and allow people to really know about them in a non-metagame way, it's pretty trivial to build singularity bombs in D&D.

Repeat after me:
In D&D, There Is Only Newton, And Atoms Are A Lie.
And Sometimes, Newton Sleeps.

[Boci]

The BoVD errata clarifies that it's a Focus, not a Material Component.

This may provide no-component shenanigans.

Where is this errata you speak of? I cannot find it here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a

I always understood there was no official errata for the book, just a fanmade one.

[2xMachina]

RE: Streamers.

Any action: Free action included.

Stay real still, and real quiet. You don't want the streamers to know you're here.

[SilverStar]

Twinned Maximized Silent Magic Missile = Finger Gatling Gun.

Okay. so maybe it's not the best thing in the world, but it's funny.

[PhoenixRivers]

RE: Streamers.

Any action: Free action included.

Stay real still, and real quiet. You don't want the streamers to know you're here.

There are a few actions that will not result in taking damage, but yes.


Twinned Maximized Silent Magic Missile = Finger Gatling Gun.

Okay. so maybe it's not the best thing in the world, but it's funny.

If you're doing that, you're better off with:

Twinned Maximized Magic Missile (With Empower Via Rod)
and
Quickened Twinned Maximized Magic Missile (With Empower Via Rod) - Residual Metamagic to get the Maximize for free

[Choco]

I have always been a fan of Frostfell (from Frostburn).

Everything in 1 20ft cube per caster level saves against being flat out turned to ice, and if they pass they take 1d6 per caster level FROSTBURN damage. And it makes equipment icy. And drops the temperature quite a bit...

[SilverStar]

I forgot about using rods. AND about Residual Metamagic.

Residual Metamagic is... kinda sick. I like that kind of sick.

THAT'S the Gatling Gun. Mine looks like a peashooter next to that.

[hamishspence]

Where is this errata you speak of? I cannot find it here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a

I always understood there was no official errata for the book, just a fanmade one.

Sorry- must have been thinking of the FAQ:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a


The discussion of corrupt spells on page 78 in the Book
of Vile Darkness says corrupt spells have no material
components. However, the apocalypse from the sky and
evil weather spells are corrupt spells with material
components (an artifact and amethysts, respectively). Are
they supposed to be focuses?
A focus is a material component (just not a material
component that is consumed in the casting of the spell). The
two spell descriptions are correct, page 78 is wrong; however,
the artifact needed for the apocalypse from the sky spell is a
focus and is not consumed when the spell is cast.

FAQs are still referred to as "Official" on the site.

[Lycanthromancer]

Sorry- must have been thinking of the FAQ:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a



FAQs are still referred to as "Official" on the site.So is CustServe and the Sage, meaning that if they're to be followed as well, D&D 3.5 is literally unplayable.

[hamishspence]

Tricky part is where you draw the line- still, FAQs were (as far as I know) created to resolve these kind of oddities.

When it says in BoVD "corrupt spells don't have material components" then lists some with them, this dichonomy has to be resolved.

FAQ resolved it by calling those particular components, focuses.

[Tyrrell]

I got 102 replies!?!? wow!

Streamers and avuncular mass I don't have the books for (someone in my group probably has a pirated copy but I'm not going to go looking for it at the moment.

As for lower level spells meta-magiced up, I've been playing the character for two years and he has 10 levels of incantatrix I've pretty much got this covered (I've had success both using twined empowered explosive cascade and chain disintegrate against creatures that didn't have high scores in the appropriate saving throws. Those are both eighth level if you have improved metamagic).

Orb of destruction is nice and neat I'll certainly choose it eventually but I've already got ways to take down single critters without giving them a save (maze or Otto's irresistible dance + arcane reach from Archmage).

So at this point I think I'm torn between Iceberg and Maw of chaos, I'd love to hear arguments in favor of one or the other. I'm going to take master of shaping next level so I'll have to worry much less about friendly fire with either spell.

[PhoenixRivers]

I got 102 replies!?!? wow!

Streamers and avuncular mass I don't have the books for (someone in my group probably has a pirated copy but I'm not going to go looking for it at the moment.

As for lower level spells meta-magiced up, I've been playing the character for two years and he has 10 levels of incantatrix I've pretty much got this covered (I've had success both using twined empowered explosive cascade and chain disintegrate against creatures that didn't have high scores in the appropriate saving throws. Those are both eighth level if you have improved metamagic).

Orb of destruction is nice and neat I'll certainly choose it eventually but I've already got ways to take down single critters without giving them a save (maze or Otto's irresistible dance + arcane reach from Archmage).

So at this point I think I'm torn between Iceberg and Maw of chaos, I'd love to hear arguments in favor of one or the other. I'm going to take master of shaping next level so I'll have to worry much less about friendly fire with either spell.

Maw of Chaos - Provides a secondary stun effect. Great for setting up a 1-2 combo, such as following with Wall of Stone + Lyre of building.


I forgot about using rods. AND about Residual Metamagic.

Residual Metamagic is... kinda sick. I like that kind of sick.

THAT'S the Gatling Gun. Mine looks like a peashooter next to that.

You should see when I turn magic missiles into this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxnC6jkJyEM), heh.

[Tyrrell]

Upon reflection, I think that I'll go with iceberg


Iceberg does more damage at 17th level. Maw of chaos has better damage down the line but I've got three free spells coming at 18th 19th and 20th levels as well.

Iceberg has a larger area effect (60' versus 15'radius) even the area of effect where no save is allowed for iceberg is bigger than the area of maw of chaos.

While being dazed is probably a better secondary effect than being buried in snow Iceberg doesn't allow a saving throw vs being buried while maw of chaos does allow a save versus being dazed.

To quote "elephant sized blocks of ice scatter in all directions" now that's fun. That's even more fun than "the air cracks and splits opening into a yawning area of roiling blue-green energy"(the area is yawning?)


I'm very much looking forward to drawing a 20'radius circle on the battle mat then a 40'radus then a 60'radius, and playing up a sort of absurd "plop" sound effect.

Thank you all for your help and suggestions (except the folks who suggested making a nuke, that wasn't remotely helpful, and it didn't appeal to my sense of humor either).

[hamishspence]

Plus, if you cast it into water (since it shatters on a solid surface) you could swamp ships with the waves created.

Or cast it on the Plane of Air- and you have a skyberg- which could be used as a base.

[PhoenixRivers]

Maw of chaos has another benefit:

No save vs the damage.

If you're an Incantatrix, then Empower and Maximize shouldn't be hard to do...

and at level 17, that's...

132 average damage per round.

Note, also: There is very, very few creatures that are immune or resistant to maw of chaos.

Note also: Buried creatures can't be further targeted, and they can teleport. The snow blocks Line of Effect for most spells, also.

[Eldariel]

Maw of chaos has another benefit:

No save vs the damage.

If you're an Incantatrix, then Empower and Maximize shouldn't be hard to do...

and at level 17, that's...

132 average damage per round.

Note, also: There is very, very few creatures that are immune or resistant to maw of chaos.

Note also: Buried creatures can't be further targeted, and they can teleport. The snow blocks Line of Effect for most spells, also.

Empower and Maximize is kinda waste due to the diminishing returns, but e.g. Maximize and Twin would be scary (though take a bit more effort due to Twin requiring one more meta reducer due to being +4). And yeah, the save is very frightening too.

One big thing going on for the Orbs is that it's the perfect opportunity to yell "HADOUKEN!" or "MADOUHA!" or similar (suit to taste) each time you cast the spell, particularly supermeta'd Orb of Force.

[Bob the Urgh]

I always liked black blade of disaster, too easy to dispel though.

[Tyrrell]

Maw of chaos has another benefit:

No save vs the damage.

No save on iceberg either (at least in the center 20'radius


If you're an Incantatrix, then Empower and Maximize shouldn't be hard to do....
The errata for players guide to faerun restricts the use of instant metamagic to spell levels that I can cast. Even empower will take me a level 10 slot. I could use metamagic effect and add empower or maximize on a subsequent round, but that won't frequently be the best use of my time. Maw of chaos is on the list of spells to get (just like orb of destruction) I'm just going to take iceberg instead of the others as one of my 3 spells for achieving 17th level.



Note, also: There are very, very few creatures that are immune or resistant to maw of chaos. fair point


Note also: Buried creatures can't be further targeted, and they can teleport. The snow blocks Line of Effect for most spells, also. Another good point, but I have confidence in my fellow party members to deal with these issues and I really am looking forward to the plop of Armageddon.

[Doc Roc]

Actually, it's Avascular mass, my apologies. Page 19, spell compendium.

Make bloody sure you have limited wish, if the XPH is allowed, because then you can limited wish for psychic reformation, to swap your spell list.

[Tyrrell]

Actually, it's Avascular mass, my apologies. Page 19, spell compendium.

Make bloody sure you have limited wish, if the XPH is allowed, because then you can limited wish for psychic reformation, to swap your spell list.

flip flip... an evil spell, I'm not fond of that particular aspect. Nice choice for other characters though.

[Doc Roc]

It's true. It's worth keeping a couple scrolls around though, since it solves some unique problems, such as "Where did your five thousand HP go?"

[Prodan]

flip flip... an evil spell, I'm not fond of that particular aspect.
Suggest you ignore the six characters designating it as [Evil].

[Prodan]

How does that work?

[Myou]

Suggest you ignore the six characters designating it as [Evil].

Pffft, it's about as evil as spells get. And totally disgusting. :smallyuk:

[Koury]

Pffft, it's about as evil as spells get. And totally awesome!

Fixed that for you. :smallamused:

[ghashxx]

While Iceberg may ruin line of site to your victim, it goes the other way around. It's all about tactical advantage. With no save, they're always going to be buried. And even if they do teleport out, that's an entire turn of theirs completely wasted just getting out of a nasty predicament. So you get a free turn to do whatever you want...like cast it again.

Even if they do teleport, that's going to require a high level spell slot to do that. Dimension door doesn't work without line of sight, and even the dimensional stride boots will be useless too. So that's a turn wasted on their behalf, a spell wasted, and then they may fumble the spell since they're buried, thereby minimizing their somatic abilities. And even if they can get out, if they're still in the area then they're in snow which equals really slow movement speed.

And if they burrow out, then that's a few rounds where you get to cast buff spells. For all those reasons, I find Iceberg to be one of the best 9th level damage spell in the books.

[PhoenixRivers]

While Iceberg may ruin line of site to your victim, it goes the other way around. It's all about tactical advantage. With no save, they're always going to be buried. And even if they do teleport out, that's an entire turn of theirs completely wasted just getting out of a nasty predicament. So you get a free turn to do whatever you want...like cast it again.

Even if they do teleport, that's going to require a high level spell slot to do that. Dimension door doesn't work without line of sight, and even the dimensional stride boots will be useless too. So that's a turn wasted on their behalf, a spell wasted, and then they may fumble the spell since they're buried, thereby minimizing their somatic abilities. And even if they can get out, if they're still in the area then they're in snow which equals really slow movement speed.

And if they burrow out, then that's a few rounds where you get to cast buff spells. For all those reasons, I find Iceberg to be one of the best 9th level damage spell in the books.

Dimension door doesn't need LOS (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionDoor.htm). It's also Verbal only.

Being underneath the ice also gives many casters the option to chill out and buff in peace.

No, losing sight of an enemy is almost never a good thing. It's even worse if the creature has a burrow speed. Because then it can burrow out at 30-60 a round, while buffing, and it chooses when to come out.

You're going to lecture me on tactical advantage? Information Denial is the most powerful tactical disadvantage you can get, short of inability to act. And you suggest blinding yourself as a viable tactical option.

Yeah, it's a massive effect... What happens in close quarters?

Maw of Chaos is Widely regarded as top shelf, one of the best non-broken 9th level spells in the game. It's versatile, effective, has good damage AND versatile Battlefield Control options, and deals great damage round after round. If you're going to compare that to some snow and cold damage? LOL.

[tyckspoon]

Avuncular Mass (8th)


Conjuration
As you complete the gestures of your spell, a gaggle of friendly older gentlemen appear around the target. They ply him with beer and good advice, leading him to reconsider his life goals...

A Middle Aged human male appears in each space around your target. They attempt a Diplomacy check against the target as a standard action. This check has a bonus equal to your caster level+2 for each human conjured.


(Ok, so you noticed it by now, but this was too entertaining an error to pass up.)

[Myou]

Broke that for you. :smallamused:

Fixed. :smalltongue:

[Volthawk]

Fixed. :smalltongue:

It is true, though. Evil gets the cool stuff. Like using people's hearts and brains to make magic more powerful. And they get drugs:smallbiggrin:.

[Myou]

It is true, though. Evil gets the cool stuff. Like using people's hearts and brains to make magic more powerful. And they get drugs:smallbiggrin:.

Yeah, but evil also gets a sword through the face before the campaign ends, so there are downsides. :smallsmile:

[Doc Roc]

Conjuration
As you complete the gestures of your spell, a gaggle of friendly older gentlemen appear around the target. They ply him with beer and good advice, leading him to reconsider his life goals...

A Middle Aged human male appears in each space around your target. They attempt a Diplomacy check against the target as a standard action. This check has a bonus equal to your caster level+2 for each human conjured.


(Ok, so you noticed it by now, but this was too entertaining an error to pass up.)

God bless you. I'd cast that, too.

[Volthawk]

Yeah, but evil also gets a sword through the face before the campaign ends, so there are downsides. :smallsmile:

Not if you're smart. Not to mention evil can get wishes with a DC 50 knowledge check. Or Greater Planar Ally for a DC 35. And these checks get modified in so many different ways. For example, sacrificing a 6th level gnome cleric of Garl Glittergold to Kurtumalak already gives you a +6 extra, and that's if you're alone, the cleric is 'unpure', he's completely unwilling, and you just do it in a place with no altar or desecrate/unhallow effects involved, and it's quick (under an hour). Basically, it's pretty easy to get huge bonuses on the check. Even just a DC 15 check gives you +4 to a stat for 24 hours!

[Doc Roc]

Not if you're smart. Not to mention evil can get wishes with a DC 50 knowledge check. Or Greater Planar Ally for a DC 35. And these checks get modified in so many different ways. For example, sacrificing a 6th level gnome cleric of Garl Glittergold to Kurtumalak already gives you a +6 extra, and that's if you're alone, the cleric is 'unpure', he's completely unwilling, and you just do it in a place with no altar or desecrate/unhallow effects involved, and it's quick (under an hour). Basically, it's pretty easy to get huge bonuses on the check. Even just a DC 15 check gives you +4 to a stat for 24 hours!

Good aligned characters get more wishes from Pazuzu.

[Volthawk]

Good aligned characters get more wishes from Pazuzu.

What exactly is Pazuzu? All I know is it's prt of Pun-Pun, and you say the name three times or something.

[Eldariel]

What exactly is Pazuzu? All I know is it's prt of Pun-Pun, and you say the name three times or something.

Demon Lord who likes corrupting people with Wishes. Fiendish Codex I.

[Volthawk]

Demon Lord who likes corrupting people with Wishes. Fiendish Codex I.

So Good people benefit more....how?

[Doc Roc]

So Good people benefit more....how?

They get more wishes.

[Eldariel]

So Good people benefit more....how?

Let me answer you with a question: What good is there to corrupting corrupt people?

[Volthawk]

They get more wishes.

Interesting...

But still, that is a 1/day thing, right? And anyway, even LG people can do it 5 times. But still, that is kinda cool.


Let me answer you with a question: What good is there to corrupting corrupt people?

Yeah, now I've read the entry, it all makes sense.

[Doc Roc]

Let me answer you with a question: What good is there to corrupting corrupt people?

+1 cookie
+3 depravity
+1024 XP
+7 Gold Pieces (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB_l4AdtJds)

[tyckspoon]

Interesting...

But still, that is a 1/day thing, right? And anyway, even LG people can do it 5 times. But still, that is kinda cool.



Yeah, now I've read the entry, it all makes sense.

If you're being sufficiently cheesy it only takes 1 Wish to set off an infinite Wish loop, which makes it fairly pointless how often you can use the original method; the determining factor in who does it better becomes how quickly and safely you can access that first Wish. And so far that's a Paladin calling on Pazuzu, because Pazuzu specifically doesn't screw with their Wishes in order to make himself seem a better option for future calling.

[Icewraith]

Just don't poke too many holes in Maw of Chaos when you get it. The premiere tactic for a sufficiently strong opponent (or wizard with TK) who makes his save vs daze is bull rush your buddy out of his 5' safe zone and occupy it.

Other Pro Tip with Iceberg: Use on low flying opponents for extra damage, also use it to block corridors. Incidentally I'm not sure what happens to the Iceberg's buried effect after you open Maw of Chaos up in the same area, but it seems like either

a) the spell effects both persist, and your opponents who can't teleport are screwed.

b) the Maw of Chaos melts the ice after a GM-determined number of rounds. However, if he's going to go that route, argue that any non-fire immune creatures should be taking significant damage from steam burns if they're in the area or flying above it. We're talking about elephant-sized chunks of ice after all.

[PhoenixRivers]

Neither. Maw of chaos only damages creatures, not objects the size of them.

Ice would block LoE, and you'd be out 2 spells.

Whereas, if you put a maw of chaos on a maw of chaos?

120 damage a round and 2 saves vs daze (a lot more if you maximize)

[Ramza00]

Streamers are far more awesome when they are made invisible with the invisible spell feat. The enemy doesn't know he is about to die, until he drops dead for he took too many actions.

Combine with reserves of strength (note via doing so you are mixing Dragonlance and Forgotten realms material), and circle magic (the spell is in the same book as one of the good circle magic classes). And the enemy drops dead when you say boo.

------------------------------------------

Iceberg also gets better when you combine it with invisible spell.

[tyckspoon]

Iceberg Everything also gets better when you combine it with invisible spell.

If you've got a feat spare, just make all your spells invisible. Just to screw with people.

[Ramza00]

If you've got a feat spare, just make all your spells invisible. Just to screw with people.
Well in this case you don't deny the line of sight yet you are still screwed with movement.

[ghashxx]

Dimension door doesn't need LOS (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionDoor.htm). It's also Verbal only.

Being underneath the ice also gives many casters the option to chill out and buff in peace.

No, losing sight of an enemy is almost never a good thing. It's even worse if the creature has a burrow speed. Because then it can burrow out at 30-60 a round, while buffing, and it chooses when to come out.

You're going to lecture me on tactical advantage? Information Denial is the most powerful tactical disadvantage you can get, short of inability to act. And you suggest blinding yourself as a viable tactical option.

Yeah, it's a massive effect... What happens in close quarters?

Maw of Chaos is Widely regarded as top shelf, one of the best non-broken 9th level spells in the game. It's versatile, effective, has good damage AND versatile Battlefield Control options, and deals great damage round after round. If you're going to compare that to some snow and cold damage? LOL.

Wait, how is maw of chaos such a great spell? It's only good effect is against wizards, while everything else really couldn't care less in any way shape or form seeing as how it's only a 15' spread at medium range. And even then, it's only affecting non-chaotic characters. How is only non-chaotic spell casters being affected a good thing? That actually sounds like a really useless spell.

That's really useless compared to a long range, with lots of damage, and possibly suffocating. And burrowing? Who the heck has burrowing except in only the rarest occasions. I'll gladly take iceberg rather than maw of chaos. Actually able to affect more than a few people at a time and without a save.

And while yes, a wizard can buff themselves inside, that's only for as so long as they don't suffocate. And people play more than just wizards too.

[Eldariel]

Wait, how is maw of chaos such a great spell? It's only good effect is against wizards, while everything else really couldn't care less in any way shape or form seeing as how it's only a 15' spread at medium range. And even then, it's only affecting non-chaotic characters. How is only non-chaotic spell casters being affected a good thing? That actually sounds like a really useless spell.

What the heck? It affects all non-chaotic creatures. Where are you getting the "only spellcasters"-part from? The awesome part is specifically that it's unstoppable, uncapped damage followed by an area SoS.

[Bob the Urgh]

Having the invisible spell feat seems to defeat the purpose of having a flashy 9-th level blast spell.

[The Glyphstone]

Vs. Melee
-Iceberg = trapped.
-Maw of Chaos = can walk out of it if they pass the daze save.

Vs. Casters
-Iceberg = can Dimension Door out of it.
-Maw of Chaos = can walk or Dimension Door out of it if they pass the daze save.


Personally, I'd take Iceberg despite it being less optimal, it's more fun. Spells that tear shrieking holes in the fabric of reality are a dime a dozen, but dropping a house-sized chunk of snow and ice on someone's head never gets old. Bonus points if you cast it and then point up above them first, so they look to see what you're pointing at.

[Eldariel]

Personally, I'd take Iceberg despite it being less optimal, it's more fun. Spells that tear shrieking holes in the fabric of reality are a dime a dozen, but dropping a house-sized chunk of snow and ice on someone's head never gets old. Bonus points if you cast it and then point up above them first, so they look to see what you're pointing at.

Actually, ripping holes in reality is pretty damn hard. Which is why Maw of Chaos is so awesome. Icebergs are really mundane and you've been doing that since you got Telekinesis anyways.

[Divide by Zero]

Personally, I'd take Iceberg despite it being less optimal, it's more fun. Spells that tear shrieking holes in the fabric of reality are a dime a dozen, but dropping a house-sized chunk of snow and ice on someone's head never gets old. Bonus points if you cast it and then point up above them first, so they look to see what you're pointing at.

More bonus points if you make the iceberg actually house-shaped, and your opponent is a witch. And then a choreographed song by a bunch of TO characters.

[tyckspoon]

Wait, how is maw of chaos such a great spell? It's only good effect is against wizards, while everything else really couldn't care less in any way shape or form seeing as how it's only a 15' spread at medium range. And even then, it's only affecting non-chaotic characters. How is only non-chaotic spell casters being affected a good thing? That actually sounds like a really useless spell.


..well, there's your problem. You need to read the spell more carefully. The first two paragraphs are separate functions: everybody takes 1d6 damage/caster level, no save, and then must make a Will save (non-Mind Affecting, note) or be dazed for a round. So it's good because it's an ongoing damage spell, with no upper damage cap, that also includes a battlefield control component to help keep people in it.
The second paragraph is basically a side effect compared to the first; if somebody is doing something that needs concentrating, the Maw makes it hard to do that in the area.
The last sentence does not say it only affects non-chaotic characters. It says it doesn't affect creatures with the Chaotic subtype, which is a much different thing- it basically means you can't zap Slaadi and Demons with it.

Range and area are more a matter of preference. Maw offers Medium range, which is enough to cover pretty much every practical D&D battlespace; the system is built around small-unit fights in relatively small areas, not sniping with spells and bows across the Great Plains. Maw also has a total 30-foot zone, which is plenty large for a small-group fight while still being small enough to place with relative precision and separation of targets. Iceberg's 60-foot danger area is more likely to risk your own teammates, and the buried-in-snow area has strong potential to hamper your group's fighting efforts as much as those of the enemy.

[lsfreak]

Maw of Chaos has ongoing damage going for it. With Iceberg, you have 20d6 damage, never any more (unless someone starts suffocating, I suppose, if the DM rules as such). With Maw of Chaos, drop it on someone with a lower Will save, and they may well take 2-4 times your caster level in d6's.

[Eldariel]

Maw of Chaos has ongoing damage going for it. With Iceberg, you have 20d6 damage, never any more (unless someone starts suffocating, I suppose, if the DM rules as such). With Maw of Chaos, drop it on someone with a lower Will save, and they may well take 2-4 times your caster level in d6's.

And it's no trick to have Caster Level 30 on level 20.

[icefractal]

I'll vote for Frostfell, actually. The "20' cube per level" area is a lot better to work with than a radius (admittedly not as important with Master of Shaping), and the effects are pretty nice:
1) Area SoD
2) 20d6 damage, no save, that requires a CL-check to heal and can't heal naturally (not that a 25 is hard to hit at this level, but it screws with potions and fast healing).
3) Lasting area obstruction: Snowstorm, icy ground, weapons become slippery, freezing cold. If the area was previously no hotter than average, all metal is affected by Chill Metal.

On the other hand, Iceberg + Quickened Blood Snow is a very nasty combination. Anyone in contact with the blood snow (20' square / level, so quite a bit of it) must save each round or take Constitution drain. Once they fail one save, they're nauseated for the rest of the duration. Let's see people get unburied with no standard actions!

This also works with Frostfell (assuming the ambient temperature wasn't above Hot), but since they aren't buried, they can move out of it more easily.

[PhoenixRivers]

Wait, how is maw of chaos such a great spell? It's only good effect is against wizards, while everything else really couldn't care less in any way shape or form seeing as how it's only a 15' spread at medium range. And even then, it's only affecting non-chaotic characters. How is only non-chaotic spell casters being affected a good thing? That actually sounds like a really useless spell.
Chaotic subtype does not equal Chaotic alignment.

Demons are immune. Chaotic Clyde the Chaotic Commoner is not.

Anyone gets to make a will save or be dazed, which makes it REALLY good against big, dumb, ugly creatures.


That's really useless compared to a long range, with lots of damage, and possibly suffocating. And burrowing? Who the heck has burrowing except in only the rarest occasions. I'll gladly take iceberg rather than maw of chaos. Actually able to affect more than a few people at a time and without a save.
If you need to affect more than a few people at a time? Then chances are, they're not worth a 9th level spell slot. As for burrowing? At this level? Anything with Shapechange, polymorph, wild shape, about half the dragons, and anything that has access to mid level spells.


And while yes, a wizard can buff themselves inside, that's only for as so long as they don't suffocate. And people play more than just wizards too.
Yep, people do.

However, they're usually fairly vulnerable to the will save.

Now, let's look at buffing in a Maw. Concentration check around 40-50 to maintain the spell, on top of the daze effect.

In other words? You don't know how Maw works. You need a rare creature subtype to escape from it.

As for suffocation? Necklace of Adaptation is a very sought after item, for its protection vs Cloudkill. I'd not like my entire plan hosed because the creature either didn't breathe due to creature type, or a 9000gp item.

On top of that? 20d6, one time, vs...
17d6 every round.

How are you thinking this spell is useless again?

[Ormur]

My question would be why Maw of Chaos is an abjuration but I suppose that just makes it better as it's a rarely banned school.

[Doc Roc]

One really good reason:
Abjuration effects cross to the ethereal, just like force effects.

[Icewraith]

How does dropping an iceberg on an area block a follow-up maw of chaos the next round? O wait it's a spread.

Maw of Chaos, then Iceberg if things haven't gotten out of the radius. Since the spread will already have spread, you won't lose out on the damage and anything that is dazed for a round will probably also suffocate. I don't think you can make the check to hold your breath if you're dazed.

Come to think of it, does the spread "re-spread" itself from the initial targeted junction every round, or do you calculate the spread once and then deal area damage in it for the following rounds? Otherwise a wall of force or similar spread-blocking effect can halve or quarter the damage area.

[Greenish]

How does dropping an iceberg on an area block a follow-up maw of chaos the next round? O wait it's a spread.

Maw of Chaos, then Iceberg if things haven't gotten out of the radius. Since the spread will already have spread, you won't lose out on the damage and anything that is dazed for a round will probably also suffocate. I don't think you can make the check to hold your breath if you're dazed.Using two 9th level spells is a bit excessive, don't you think?

[Doc Roc]

Using two 9th level spells is a bit excessive, don't you think?

"There is no overkill, only open fire, and I need to reload."

[FatR]

After a tremendous number of sessions of play my elven generalist wizard/incantator/archmage is on the cusp of 17th level. I'd like to get at least one very nice boom spell for him. I know that boom spells are often thought of as poor choices but my party is caster heavy and when the sorcerer the mystic theurge and I all let loose with the damage spells at the same time we can often end encounter before any sort of control is necessary. SO yes I'm taking other stuff but I'd like to get the name of the very best boom spell available.
There is no good "boom" spells on 9th level in the core. In fact, "boom" spells are generally underwhelming, but 9th level makes this particularly apparent. I literally cannot conceive a situation when anyone might want to cast a Meteor Swarm as-written, when on average it deals only slightly more than 110 damage on a direct hit - assuming the target has no resistances or immunities, at levels where almost everyone does. And its "boom" is not that impressive as well. I expect more widespread destruction from the pinnacle explosion spell. By comparison, the version from my houserules:


Meteor Swarm
Evocation [Fire]
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: Four 100-ft.-radius spreads; see text
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None or Reflex half; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes

Meteor swarm is a very powerful and spectacular spell that is said to be the ultimate evocation. When you cast it, four 2-feet-radius white-hot spheres spring from your outstretched hands and streak in straight lines to the spots you select, faster than the eye can see, and leaving behind trails of flame and smoke, similar to that of real meteors.

Each sphere can target a creature, an object or simply be aimed at a 5-feet square where you want it to explode. No more than one sphere can be aimed at each single creature (unless the space taken by this creature is 15 feet or more, in which case all spheres can be aimed at it) or a 5-feet square. Hitting a creature requires a successful ranged touch attack to strike the target with the meteor. Any creature or object struck by one of these spheres takes 2 points of bludgeoning damage per caster level (no save, treat meteors as magic weapons for the purpose of penetrating damage reduction) and receives no saving throw against the sphere’s fire damage (see below). If a sphere aimed at a creature misses its target, it simply explodes at the target’s space.

Once a sphere reaches its destination, it explodes in a 100-foot-radius spread, dealing 5d10+10 points of fire damage to each creature in the area. If a creature is within the area of more than one sphere, it must save separately against each. (Fire resistance applies to each sphere’s damage individually.)


As about non-core spells, there are a few damaging spells that are decent at killing stuff, like Maw of Chaos - thanks, like Maw of Chaos to having effects besides direct damage - but the only 3.X spell I can remember that actually makes a seriously huge boom is Apocalypse from the Sky in BoVD (which of course, is good only for making a seriously huge boom, but not for actually fighting anything level-appropriate). Authors apparently think that wiping out extras en masse and leveling cities with a single spell is overpowered for DnD. Why, I don't know - if characters can do this already, why don't allow them to do this in a cool way?

[FatR]

My question would be why Maw of Chaos is an abjuration
Because evocation is officially not allowed to have good stuff.

[Divide by Zero]

Using two 9th level spells is a bit excessive, don't you think?

Real blasters all follow the "More Dakka" school of philosophy.

[Runestar]

Because evocation is officially not allowed to have good stuff.

Evocation does have some good stuff, only ironic thing is that they tend not to do damage...:smallannoyed:

[Aharon]

Are there any non-costly ways to get the chaotic subtype? It gets cited very often as a potent attack spell, so it might be prudent to have a defense against it.

[Volthawk]

Are there any non-costly ways to get the chaotic subtype? It gets cited very often as a potent attack spell, so it might be prudent to have a defense against it.

Well, cheap I can't think of, but for 56,000 gold and 2240 XP, you can do the ritual of alignment to give you the subtype. It even works if you're lawful, too!

[dobu]

hm. meteor swarm has its uses. Paired with an Unseen Seer build, who uses Hunter's Eye and Sniper's Shot, it's a nasty (long range!) sniper spell. Not really subtle, but still mean (combine it with invisible spell for maximum surprise - they never see it coming :smallamused: ).

[PhoenixRivers]

hm. meteor swarm has its uses. Paired with an Unseen Seer build, who uses Hunter's Eye and Sniper's Shot, it's a nasty (long range!) sniper spell. Not really subtle, but still mean (combine it with invisible spell for maximum surprise :) ).

You can do just as much with Scorching Ray.

Let's see, a single orb from meteor swarm is 8d6 damage. (28 avg)

Scorching ray is 4d6. (14 avg)
Maximized Twinned Scorching Ray is 24 per ray.

So, assuming 6d6 sneak attack, for example:

Meteor Swarm:

8d6 x 4 + 6d6 (133 average)

Scorching Ray
(48) x3 + 12d6 (186 average)

Both are level 9 slots.

[dobu]

ye, but meteor swarm is long range. so at cl20 scorching ray has 75ft. range, meteor swarm has 1200ft. and does area damage as well...

sure, it's not the spell which does most damage, but still a reasonable amount (if you are able to sneakattack)

[PhoenixRivers]

ye, but meteor swarm is long range. so at cl20 scorching ray has 75ft. range, meteor swarm has 1200ft. and does area damage as well...

sure, it's not the spell which does most damage, but still a reasonable amount (if you are able to sneakattack)

At 1200 feet, you're suffering a -120 to spot. If something's in the open, yeah, you've got a shot at it. Otherwise... Well, it's 4 football fields, end to end.

In other words? Not likely a massive, massive issue.

[Volthawk]

ye, but meteor swarm is long range. so at cl20 scorching ray has 75ft. range, meteor swarm has 1200ft. and does area damage as well...

sure, it's not the spell which does most damage, but still a reasonable amount (if you are able to sneakattack)

Also, you can get that that range even further.

1)Arcane Thesis Meteor Swarm (and I suppose Metamagic school focus, if Thesis doesn't individually reduce each feat, and just works off the total)

2)Extend+Corrupt. Now it has double distance, half damage is untyped, and has the [evil] descriptor.

3) Grab a Humanoid Heart. Now, it has a 50% chance of being doubled again.

So, yeah. Artillery time!

For a Wizard 20, I get a range of 3840 feet, if the humanoid heart works. If not, it's still 2560 feet.

[PhoenixRivers]

Also, you can get that that range even further.

1)Arcane Thesis Meteor Swarm (and I suppose Metamagic school focus, if Thesis doesn't individually reduce each feat, and just works off the total)

2)Extend+Corrupt. Now it has double distance, half damage is untyped, and has the [evil] descriptor.

3) Grab a Humanoid Heart. Now, it has a 50% chance of being doubled again.

So, yeah. Artillery time!

For a Wizard 20, I get a range of 3840 feet, if the humanoid heart works. If not, it's still 2560 feet.

Again, the issue is seeing what you're aiming at. Get a person, have him run down a straight road 3/4 of a mile. He'll look smaller than an ant.

Get him 3/4 mile away in natural terrain. No sight.

4000 foot spells don't matter much in 90 foot long corridors.

[Volthawk]

Again, the issue is seeing what you're aiming at. Get a person, have him run down a straight road 3/4 of a mile. He'll look smaller than an ant.

Get him 3/4 mile away in natural terrain. No sight.

4000 foot spells don't matter much in 90 foot long corridors.

Yeah...

Would Divinations help?

[lsfreak]

Yeah...

Would Divinations help?

What are you divining for, someone you don't know is there? If you're aiming to kill a specific person and you know where they're going to be but are outside of site range, sure. But that's a lot more 'assassination' than most encounters turn out to be.

Such long-range spells have very little use outside of A) gigantic monsters (who, at the size to see them that far away, are likely near-epic and will shrug off or heal the damage before you can actually close the distance) and B) military campaigns with huge numbers on each side, and for some stupid reason one side has no magic.

[Volthawk]

What are you divining for, someone you don't know is there? If you're aiming to kill a specific person and you know where they're going to be but are outside of site range, sure. But that's a lot more 'assassination' than most encounters turn out to be.

Such long-range spells have very little use outside of A) gigantic monsters (who, at the size to see them that far away, are likely near-epic and will shrug off or heal the damage before you can actually close the distance) and B) military campaigns with huge numbers on each side, and for some stupid reason one side has no magic.

I'd be trying to find where exactly the targets are, so I can hit them with my meteor artillery.

[ghashxx]

Maw of chaos is definitely nice, but I just don't think it's the end all be all, and Iceberg isn't either. But what I personally like about iceberg is the fact that the enemy actually has to actively do something to get out of the area, rather than just walk out. Burning up a teleport? How many of those things does a person have prepped each day? Or dimension door for that matter?

For me, the ability to get a save to avoid being dazed is the real killer here, though I did read it wrong w/ the chaotic subtype and not chaotic alignment, so my bad there. But then again I'm also used to needing something against really powerful dudes, so I look for spells that don't allow a save to avoid what I'm throwing at them. So from where I often find myself, iceberg has usually been a really good choice with uses against both lots of targets, and a single really powerful target. Tsunami goes right along with that too.

And using maw of chaos, then iceberg to hold them inside? Now that's hilarious

[lsfreak]

I'd be trying to find where exactly the targets are, so I can hit them with my meteor artillery.

What target? How do you know it's not just an open meadow with a treeline beyond? You have to make your Spot checks before you even know an enemy's there, at which point you don't need Divinations. Unless you have good evidence ahead of time as to where your targets are going to be, which, as I said, is a lot more assassination than most encounters.



And using maw of chaos, then iceberg to hold them inside? Now that's hilarious
In this case, I'd say the Iceberg breaks LoE to anyone trapped within the ice, unless they are actually trapped in one of the squares Maw of Chaos was targeted to (in which case, everyone NOT in those squares has no LoE and isn't under the effect).

[Volthawk]

What target? How do you know it's not just an open meadow with a treeline beyond? You have to make your Spot checks before you even know an enemy's there, at which point you don't need Divinations. Unless you have good evidence ahead of time as to where your targets are going to be, which, as I said, is a lot more assassination than most encounters.


I was thinking more like artillery. You know, I get told where they are, then either fire straight away or use divination to be more accurate.

[Lycanthromancer]

Are there any non-costly ways to get the chaotic subtype? It gets cited very often as a potent attack spell, so it might be prudent to have a defense against it.Hope I haven't been ninja'd (haven't read past this post), but polymorph, polymorph any object, shapechange, and metamorphosis grant you the type and subtype of whatever it is you're turning into, meaning yes, you can get alignment subtypes.

Also, maw of chaos + acid fog.

[Greenish]

I was thinking more like artillery. You know, I get told where they are, then either fire straight away or use divination to be more accurate.Indirect fire is only useful when the battery and the spotters can communicate and have shared coordinates to use. Even then, Meteor Swarm requires line of effect, so it is hardly useful as long-range artillery.

[Volthawk]

Indirect fire is only useful when the battery and the spotters can communicate and have shared coordinates to use. Even then, Meteor Swarm requires line of effect, so it is hardly useful as long-range artillery.

A) For communication, Telepathic Bond.

B) Ah, now that is a problem. What if it was Iceberg instead?

[PhoenixRivers]

Maw of chaos is definitely nice, but I just don't think it's the end all be all, and Iceberg isn't either. But what I personally like about iceberg is the fact that the enemy actually has to actively do something to get out of the area, rather than just walk out. Burning up a teleport? How many of those things does a person have prepped each day? Or dimension door for that matter?

For me, the ability to get a save to avoid being dazed is the real killer here, though I did read it wrong w/ the chaotic subtype and not chaotic alignment, so my bad there. But then again I'm also used to needing something against really powerful dudes, so I look for spells that don't allow a save to avoid what I'm throwing at them. So from where I often find myself, iceberg has usually been a really good choice with uses against both lots of targets, and a single really powerful target. Tsunami goes right along with that too.

And using maw of chaos, then iceberg to hold them inside? Now that's hilarious
Except for the fact that the iceberg will block LoE for the Maw.

Some of the worst spells in the game allow a save. For example:

Let's take a Wizard, level 20. 38 int (18 base, +2 Racial, +5 levels, +5 inherent, +2 Age, +6 Enhancement). Spell Focus and greater spell focus (Abjuration).

Now, let's look at 2 spells.
1) Maw of Chaos: 20d6 damage starting, then Will DC 35 for the Daze.
2) Disjunction: All the buffs gone, then Will DC 35 for items.

The big thing is that Maw of chaos is going to daze most things. And damage more than once. The recurring damage is what really lights this up, along with a mechanic to provide a reasonable chance of multiple damage.

[Greenish]

A) For communication, Telepathic Bond.Does it allow you to pinpoint something the other recipient is viewing?

[hamishspence]

Hope I haven't been ninja'd (haven't read past this post), but polymorph, polymorph any object, shapechange, and metamorphosis grant you the type and subtype of whatever it is you're turning into, meaning yes, you can get alignment subtypes.

The rituals in Savage Species also allow a character to gain an alignment subtype.

[Volthawk]

Does it allow you to pinpoint something the other recipient is viewing?

I don't think so, but I suppose that guy could tell you (you could have your own unit, and he could use something to work it out, I suppose). I dunno, I didn't first say it with all this in mind. It was firstly just a case of "let's see what range I can get". But anyway, this is interesting, and now I want to know if it'll work properly, as having magic artillery is kinda cool.


The rituals in Savage Species also allow a character to gain an alignment subtype.

Which I already said :smallamused:

[hamishspence]

True- but the post didn't cite Savage Species as the source.


Well, cheap I can't think of, but for 56,000 gold and 2240 XP, you can do the ritual of alignment to give you the subtype. It even works if you're lawful, too!

Either way- it can be done.

[Lycanthromancer]

The rituals in Savage Species also allow a character to gain an alignment subtype.The ritual is extremely expensive; anyone with access to spells would be able to defend themselves successfully.

Also, for 30,000 gp more (or a lot less if you can craft it yourself) you could get a psychoactive skin of proteus, which can let you do this at will (and many other things, to boot).

However, you'll like as not need to be an outsider to begin with, unless there're some non-outsider critters with the [chaotic] subtype? Someone? Anyone?

Also, magic jar, (true) mind switch, and anything else that lets you swap bodies.

[Avyctes]

How about Ring of Fire in Exemplars of Evil? That spell is not only high level, large area, but it is very visually appealing to know that the remains of your enemies are stuck in igneous rock after it hardens. A very appropriate evil-dude-aesthetic, if you ask me. :smallwink:

[The Glyphstone]

Great Modthulhu: Thread necromancy.