The OOTS without Belkar

[Mastikator]

Since Belkar may or may not die very soon, what's the order going to be like without Belkar? He's been the funniest character in the comic since the beginning, and although he pretty much deserves to die at this point it kind of seems like there is going to be a void in the comic without him around, since the only other funny character is Elan, but imo he's mostly more annoying than funny.

What are other people's thoughts? Is there going to be a void, or will the other characters grow to cover it up? Or maybe a replacement?

[Steward]

They might hire some sort of kobold to fill his spot. Alternatively, he might occasionally appear in ghost form (like Eugene Greenhilt) or those IFCC gods might decide that the best way to torture Vaarsuvius as payment for their assistance (and torment Belkar a bit) is to have Belkar's ghost work as the demon that inhabits his/her body.

[Shatteredtower]

Actually, Belkar's getting the series to himself soon. It's the rest of the group that should worry you.:smallwink:

[Deca]

Why do you assume Belkar's death would make him leave the comic? Roy's death sure as hell didn't.

[Dr.Epic]

That be like Garfield without Garfield. If the Giant would let people edit his art, I would so do OotS without Belkar (or maybe OotS without OotS).

[Kumo]

Why do you assume Belkar's death would make him leave the comic? Roy's death sure as hell didn't.

Shinjo's(well, debateable), Miko's, Yikyik(well, ok, also debateable) Pete's and Starmetal Dragons 1+2 have, so far =P

[Nimrod's Son]

Shinjo's(well, debateable), Miko's, Yikyik(well, ok, also debateable) Pete's and Starmetal Dragons 1+2 have, so far =P
And how many of those were ever members of The Order of the Stick, the eponymous heroes of the comic?

[Kumo]

And how many of those were ever members of The Order of the Stick, the eponymous heroes of the comic?

Why does it matter where they started? >.> the argument was that death wouldn't get a character out of the comic. That was true for the high priest of the twelve gods, Roy and Roy's family - and untrue for so many others that i just put the ones that were easily recognized.

My theory is that Belkar will legally change his name to something like Steve. Then he will develop a sudden allergy to cake and die right before he can cash in his IRA. That theory also proves i am an idiot.

[UndeadCleric]

And how many of those were ever members of The Order of the Stick, the eponymous heroes of the comic?

I dont know if I an count high enough for me to say that number. :smallwink:

[Deca]

Why does it matter where they started? >.> the argument was that death wouldn't get a character out of the comic. That was true for the high priest of the twelve gods, Roy and Roy's family - and untrue for so many others that i just put the ones that were easily recognized.

My theory is that Belkar will legally change his name to something like Steve. Then he will develop a sudden allergy to cake and die right before he can cash in his IRA. That theory also proves i am an idiot.

I'm sorry if you misunderstood me. My argument was that death would never get Belkar out of the comic. Even if nobody wants to raise him, we'd probably still see him in the afterlife, presumably hanging around in Pandemonium or the Abyss.

[Mastikator]

Why do you assume Belkar's death would make him leave the comic? Roy's death sure as hell didn't.

Roy wasn't gone forever, they all (except perhaps Belkar) wanted Roy rez'd.
Belkar? Not so much. When he's dead he's going to the abyss and nobody's going to try to get him back, or even miss him.

---


I'm sorry if you misunderstood me. My argument was that death would never get Belkar out of the comic. Even if nobody wants to raise him, we'd probably still see him in the afterlife, presumably hanging around in Pandemonium or the Abyss.

Eh, we haven't seen Miko spending time in Pandemonium or the Abyss. She isn't a part of the party? So what? Eugene isn't a part of the party but we've seen him hang out outside of Mount Celestia. Eugene is still relevant, Miko isn't. And soon, neither will Belkar be. He's not reliable nor is he committed to the quest or even remotely loyal to his teammates. He has absolutely nothing that ties him to the plot other than the fact that he's around. But that won't soon be true.

[RMcMurtry]

I suspect Belkar will be around until the final battle.

[Dr.Epic]

I suspect Belkar will be around until the final battle.

"in year comic" They have one Gate to get through before the assumed final showdown.

[derfenrirwolv]

Blackwing seems to be taking his place in the snark department

[Dr.Epic]

Blackwing seems to be taking his place in the snark department

But not the stab department.

[Kumo]

But not the stab department.
Maybe Vaarsuvius, metaphorically speaking?

[Binks]

Belkar? Not so much. When he's dead he's going to the abyss and nobody's going to try to get him back, or even miss him.
I don't know, with his 'character development' and general usefulness I could see him dying, then the rest of the team trying to go on without him and failing, then going to res him ('yeah he's a homicidal halfling with anger issues...but he's our homicidal halfling with anger issues!'). The good old 'we don't need that guy...oh wait we totally do!' thing (I'm sure there's a trope about it somewhere...)

[Deca]

Roy wasn't gone forever, they all (except perhaps Belkar) wanted Roy rez'd.
Belkar? Not so much. When he's dead he's going to the abyss and nobody's going to try to get him back, or even miss him.

---



Eh, we haven't seen Miko spending time in Pandemonium or the Abyss. She isn't a part of the party? So what? Eugene isn't a part of the party but we've seen him hang out outside of Mount Celestia. Eugene is still relevant, Miko isn't. And soon, neither will Belkar be. He's not reliable nor is he committed to the quest or even remotely loyal to his teammates. He has absolutely nothing that ties him to the plot other than the fact that he's around. But that won't soon be true.

Because Miko is not a main character. Besides, she's an NPC and nobody cares about what happens to them once they leave.
Belkar's a PC. This automatically makes him more important and gives him more screen time.

[Maximum Zersk]

The way I see it, Rich isn't one to go around making prophecies and then using some extremely convoluted measure to make sure it doesn't happen as expected. When you think about it, most of the prophecies have come true.

Now, I don't have anything against Belkar, but I also do NOT like ass pulls. When something like a character dying happens in a story, I usually don't think it's great writing to see them come back from the dead. (Roy's resurrection was an exception, since we knew that's what was going to happen, and there was an entire arc centered around that, and, for those of us who knew a lick about D 'n' D, was obvious and already within the rules of the universe.)

But anyway, to the question: now, I know there are two camps when it comes to Belkar, the "Why doesn't he die like I want him to?!" camp and the "He'll stay alive, because I have an extremely convoluted plan that will keep him alive" camp. I, myself, am in the middle. Anyway, going off track.

My idea is that they'll go on without him. Sure, there could be another character that could join, but unless that character is one we already know, preferably a villain, it may seem like a "They Changed it, Now it SUCKS!" scenario for some.

Oh, and the trope in question would be "We want our jerk back!", Binks.

[factotum]

I don't know, with his 'character development' and general usefulness I could see him dying, then the rest of the team trying to go on without him and failing, then going to res him ('yeah he's a homicidal halfling with anger issues...but he's our homicidal halfling with anger issues!').

Belkar will draw his last breath EVER. That's what the prophecy said, so anything that says "Oh, he'll get rezzed anyway" is pure wishful thinking, I'm afraid.

[RMcMurtry]

"in year comic" They have one Gate to get through before the assumed final showdown.

And? Especially if Girard is around and helping, they can cut the travel time enormously.

[Mastikator]

Blackwing seems to be taking his place in the snark department

Good point, someone is already starting to take over his role. But that would almost certainly mean that eventually the others would have to acknowledge Blackwing's existence.

[MartytheBioGuy]

Does no one else see this coming? There are certain parallels between the OoTS and the OoTScribble. And Bekar, much as I love him :smallfrown:, is the OoTS Kraagor, and as such is on a one-way train to having the Snarl rip him to shreds in a rift. There's no raising him from that. :smalleek:

Otherwise, I honestly believe that the OoTS would want their jerk back, and the "last breath... ever." comment would be false.

[Dr.Epic]

And? Especially if Girard is around and helping, they can cut the travel time enormously.

Seven weeks. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html)

And who knows who much time has passes since then.

They have the current teammates kidnapped arch, then finding and getting to Girard's Gate, then Girard's Gate, then getting to Kraagor's Gate, then Kraagor's Gate.

And that doesn't even count rapping things up with the Linear Guild.

[Arzoo]

This late in the game I seriously doubt Belkar will be replaced; if he dies the prophecy death (ie, permanent) then the Order will just be down a member. As mentioned, however, it's entirely possible (likely, even) that his afterlife will be visible to readers (he may even influence things from beyond the grave), unless he is killed in such a way that there is no afterlife...

[Dr.Epic]

This late in the game I seriously doubt Belkar will be replaced; if he dies the prophecy death (ie, permanent) then the Order will just be down a member. As mentioned, however, it's entirely possible (likely, even) that his afterlife will be visible to readers (he may even influence things from beyond the grave), unless he is killed in such a way that there is no afterlife...

true. Actually, Belkar offers little to the party as it is. He is the most expendable:

Tank: Roy
Caster: V
Healer: Durkon
Rouge: Haley
Backup whatever: Elan

All Belkar is is a weak frontlines man.

[Mordokai]

I know I am eagerly awaiting little runt's demise.

[Cizak]

He's been the funniest character in the comic since the beginning...

Quit talking like it's a fact. IMO Elan is by a long shot the funniest character.

[SmaugTheYounger]

He dies and is zombiefied by one of the EOB guys. Then he joins Team Evil. Or the Linear Guild.

[Kobold-Bard]

I believe when Belkar dies he will realise that eternity in the Abyss sucks ass (stuff down there doesn't scream when you stab it) and so will take Shojo's advice and begin a plot for faux redemption.

He'll become part of the IFCC comics rather than the OotS ones, and when the final battle comes he'll manage to save V and help in the victory of the rest of the Order. Considering this is basically the be-all end-all battle for this world his assistance followed by a grudging testimonial from V will be just enough to let him slide into one of the Neutral aligned Planes, maybe the Outlands or if he manages an Nat 20 on a Bluff check maybe even Ysgard (or the OotS equivalent).

So I have written, so it shall be :smallwink:

[Bongos]

Seven weeks. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html)

And who knows who much time has passes since then.


I estimate it has been about a week since then, so Belkar may only have 6 in comic weeks left. He seems to be taking it pretty well. Didn't the Oracle give him that one as a freebie? So Belkar himself knows right?

[Kish]

No. The Oracle gave it to the ghost of Roy as a freebie. Rich clarified in No Cure for the Paladin Blues that one of the big reasons why Rich put in the Memory Charm is so that Belkar himself has no idea about his prophesied demise.

[Morty]

I support the notion that when Belkar dies, the Order will be down one member and they'll go on as a team of five, unless they find a replacement. It's the only course of action that makes sense, really. The only reason Belkar is still in the party is that Roy figured there's no point in doing anything about him if he's going to die in 7 weeks.

[Bongos]

No. The Oracle gave it to the ghost of Roy as a freebie. Rich clarified in No Cure for the Paladin Blues that one of the big reasons why Rich put in the Memory Charm is so that Belkar himself has no idea about his prophesied demise.
Yeah thats right. Interesting moral decision Roy has made there, not telling Belkar.

[Wreckingrocc]

If Roy told him, Belkar wouldn't believe it anyways.

And Elan > Belkar. By a longshot. I, too, am eagerly awaiting the little bastard's death. Good riddance that prophecy came about. Hinjo's "You're One-Dimensional" had me laughing all too hard.

[Yendor]

If Roy told him, Belkar wouldn't believe it anyways.
And if Belkar did believe it, Roy would lose any pretense of control he had over him.

[Bongos]

If Roy told him, Belkar wouldn't believe it anyways.

You might be right there, but the fact that Roy still doesn't tell him, is the moral decision. Roy is hiding the information from Belkar. If Belkar won't believe Roy, then why not tell him. Why doesn't Roy tell the other party members besides Haley about it as well? They would believe him.

[LuisDantas]

Belkar is quite easy to replace, assuming he needs replacement at all. His heyday was left behind a few hundred strips ago, perhaps around the time he got the Greater Mark of Justice. I wish he were done with already, and have felt so for some time now. The plot reasons for keeping him around are paper-thin by this point.

The other OOtS members have their share of humor capability themselves, particularly Vaarsuvius and Blackwing. And of course, there are very good NPCs around as well.

[Kelvin360]

Oh god, it's so -simple-! Belkar finds a ring of water breathing and doesn't need to breath, and then they go to the other world where there is no cake!

EDIT: Oops, i think i'm in the wrong thread, someone point me to the one where we simulate theories about the oracle's prophecy's?

[ThePhantasm]

Does no one else see this coming? There are certain parallels between the OoTS and the OoTScribble. And Bekar, much as I love him :smallfrown:, is the OoTS Kraagor, and as such is on a one-way train to having the Snarl rip him to shreds in a rift. There's no raising him from that. :smalleek:

This... is actually quite a good observation. Well done.

I think Belkar is a key source of humor for this comic. Even though he is evil, he is generally a likable kinda guy (his snark and bad behavior add zest to what is otherwise a somewhat bland, often overly serious group... not counting Elan of course). Nonetheless, 99% chance is that he is going to die, and soon. I don't think he will be replaced. I hope we'll see him in some form in the comic. If not, I hope he gets a really good death scene that is memorable and suits his character.

[lio45]

A question for everyone with extensive D&D roleplaying experience...

When a player loses his character in a way that's extremely likely to be final, what normally happens, exactly?

Does he leave the game, or sit around and wait until there's a logical in-game opportunity to make his brand new character join the party, regardless of the time that takes, or quickly design a new character which is speedily added to the group in a more or less credible way thanks to a bit of story twisting by the DM?

If the third option is actually the most popular, knowing Rich's penchant for D&D parody in the comic, I wouldn't be surprised to see a new sixth PC pop up sometime after Belkar's irreversible death, with in-comic dialogue showing that everyone knows fully well why that "new" PC is here and accepting him without question in the Order...

[slayerx]

When a player loses his character in a way that's extremely likely to be final, what normally happens, exactly?

Does he leave the game, or sit around and wait until there's a logical in-game opportunity to make his brand new character join the party, regardless of the time that takes, or quickly design a new character which is speedily added to the group in a more or less credible way thanks to a bit of story twisting by the DM?

Usually the third option... the player probably won't be sitting out more than like one play session before he's back in the game with a new player

[Ron Miel]

And how many of those were ever members of The Order of the Stick, the eponymous heroes of the comic?

Only one, by my count.

[Mordokai]

This... is actually quite a good observation. Well done.

I think Belkar is a key source of humor for this comic. Even though he is evil, he is generally a likable kinda guy (his snark and bad behavior add zest to what is otherwise a somewhat bland, often overly serious group... not counting Elan of course). Nonetheless, 99% chance is that he is going to die, and soon. I don't think he will be replaced. I hope we'll see him in some form in the comic. If not, I hope he gets a really good death scene that is memorable and suits his character.

I respectfully disagree with you. His humor is very one way, bland and downright predictable. As for being likable... lets just say I liked Jar Jar Binks more. As far as I'm concerned, his absence wouldn't be felt at all. This is, of course, personal opinion and a lot of people are bound to disagree with me and that's ok. But I never really saw him as all that funny. To me, he is the guy that is trying too hard and failing more often than not.

[Shatteredtower]

His humor is very one way, bland and downright predictable.

Since the humour is in the phrasing and how he gets targeted, I doubt anyone has ever meaningfully demonstrated him to be predictable, especially in comparison to... well, any other character. Elan, for example, had best hope a certain empress isn't young, hot and humanoid, reptilian or no.

The humour has always been in the specifics, though there is a certain charm in how often he's gotten the better of smarter, bigger, more capable individuals, especially those of (supposedly) better character. It isn't just about the enjoyment of seeing his betters taken down a peg, though that's satisfying when they have it coming. It's also about the pleasure of knowing it always comes back around on him in the end, and can you think of a more deserving target?

[Maximum Zersk]

You know, this thread just proves the point I made a few posts ago. :smallwink:

[waterpenguin43]

He's been the funniest character in the comic since the beginning,

I dissagree. I think Elan was the funniest character until he became competent. Then Roy was the funniest.

[amuletts]

"last breath... ever"
Yes I see some sort of undaed possibility!
Of course, Belkar dying and then a totally different player-character turning up with "PC" stamped on his head who the party immediately trust even though he's an ass (same player and plays all his characters the same) would be pretty funny.

[MartytheBioGuy]

This... is actually quite a good observation. Well done.


Well, thanks.:smallbiggrin: And that was my first post on the forums!

[Shatteredtower]

That be like Garfield without Garfield. If the Giant would let people edit his art, I would so do OotS without Belkar (or maybe OotS without OotS).

Taking Belkar out would require a lot of skipped strips and panels. This causes a few points of awkward narration, as bandits inexplicably capture V and Haley without #157 and we'd be hard pressed to explain strip #285 if Miko hadn't left to pursue Belkar 20 strips earlier.

Garfield removal only works because he's never plot essential. The guy that saved Haley in #613 (and # 520, though you could get around that by skipping from 519 to 523) is.

[ChowGuy]

They might hire some sort of kobold to fill his spot.

A very funny kobold named Yuk Yuk perhaps? Nah, would never work.


On the other claw, I could totally see dead Belkar getting recruited as a willing pawn of the IFCC, and end up saving the world in the end by screwing up their plans.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Once Belkar is dead he will take over hell, hijack and astral skiff, sail to the material plain, and rejoin the group. :belkar:

So there's really nothing to worry about.

[Kumo]

You might be right there, but the fact that Roy still doesn't tell him, is the moral decision. Roy is hiding the information from Belkar. If Belkar won't believe Roy, then why not tell him. Why doesn't Roy tell the other party members besides Haley about it as well? They would believe him.

Ace in the hole? Belkar knowing about the Oracle's prediction would cause him to try and change it - and who knows what he'd do then? The main reason Belkar's acting like a nice guy is so people don't try to kill him but since he's going to die soon anyway there's not a real point.

Also: Those of you that say his reasons for being in the party are paper thin: they were pretty much like that to begin with. Hell, gimme one reason he was kept in the party at all at any point that didn't involve him having to stay one mile from Roy's body at most and/or being the only help Haley could find.

I like belkar, don't get me wrong. but he's not there to drive plot, he's there to stab stuff.
Oh god, it's so -simple-! Belkar finds a ring of water breathing and doesn't need to breath, and then they go to the other world where there is no cake!

EDIT: Oops, i think i'm in the wrong thread, someone point me to the one where we simulate theories about the oracle's prophecy's?

You forgot the IRA comment =P

[Dr.Epic]

Taking Belkar out would require a lot of skipped strips and panels. This causes a few points of awkward narration, as bandits inexplicably capture V and Haley without #157 and we'd be hard pressed to explain strip #285 if Miko hadn't left to pursue Belkar 20 strips earlier.

Garfield removal only works because he's never plot essential. The guy that saved Haley in #613 (and # 520, though you could get around that by skipping from 519 to 523) is.

I'd like to see comic 439 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html) that way just out of shear curiosity.

[Shatteredtower]

I'd like to see comic 439 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html) that way just out of shear curiosity.

Okay, that would be pretty odd. The whole series would start to feel like a whim of the Elder Gods.

[denthor]

In the book No Cure for the Paladin blues just before comic 260 Rich says


qu
ote the Giant in the playground

Well, just so there's no misunderstanding Belkar is a protagonist of OOTS, regardless of his alignment. The strip will continue to follow him even if he leaves the OOTS. Heck, if Miko had killed Belkar, we probably would have had a few strips showing Belkar in the Afterlife before he was brought back. (Aw,man, that would have been great...sigh...another opportunity missed.)

[Mystic Muse]

Once Belkar is dead he will take over hell, hijack and astral skiff, sail to the material plain, and rejoin the group. :belkar:

So there's really nothing to worry about.

one, hell is only for Lawful evil people. Belkar is very plainly Chaotic.

Two, Belkar isn't strong enough to deal with Demons in hell and he'd pretty much lack the drive at that point. I doubt demons scream a lot which gives him very little reason to kill them.

Heck, if any of the demon lords were even remotely scared of him they'd probably just erase his soul from existence.

Belkar isn't going to rejoin the group like that. It'd be entirely pointless and a complete cop-out.

[Wreckingrocc]

I hope we'll see him in some form in the comic. If not, I hope he gets a really good death scene that is memorable and suits his character.So, you want him to be randomly stabbed by some random hobgoblin without any dialogue leading up to it and the fact that the action was committed will just be shrugged off immediately afterward?

[Yendor]

So, you want him to be randomly stabbed by some random hobgoblin without any dialogue leading up to it and the fact that the action was committed will just be shrugged off immediately afterward?

Works for me.

[LuisDantas]

For me too.

[Maximum Zersk]

So, you want him to be randomly stabbed by some random hobgoblin without any dialogue leading up to it and the fact that the action was committed will just be shrugged off immediately afterward?

Come on, something as awesome as the "I am a sexy shoeless god of war!" scene.

[LuisDantas]

Maybe I'm the only one, but I found the "sexy shoeless god of war" scene a bit unsettling, puzzling even.

I'd much rather see the random stabbing scene proposed. It would be funny and satisfying, if nothing else.

[Shatteredtower]

I'd much rather see the random stabbing scene proposed. It would be funny and satisfying, if nothing else.

How could something so trivial be funny? Seeing Belkar get smacked down HARD, as he was by the Oracle, was very satisfying and hilarious. A random, anonymous stabbing in the lonely dark would just be petty and pathetic.

It may be no better than he deserves as a person, but the story does deserve something better. Something actually funny, rather than, "I hate him so much that seeing him killed would automatically get a laugh from me," would be a bonus.

[John Cribati]

Randomly killing off a main character is bad for any narrative. What if Roy were prophesied to die (forever) and it was some random one-off person? That would suck, wouldn't it?

[ThePhantasm]

I fail to see how it would be funny at all to randomly kill off Belkar in some inconsequential way. Plus, after all this anticipation for his death, it would be a dramatic letdown as well.

[LuisDantas]

A random, inconsequential death fits Belkar just fine, for it makes an elegant contrast with his usual pretense.

I would much prefer it to some extended scene with emphasis on Belkar.

[Garwain]

I like Belkar. So I'm glad Rich told us he'll be a part of the story. However, being dead, it won't be part of the OotS.

So what storyline could be interesting for Belkar without breathing?

Belkarmaid, Terror of the Seas, will defeat the final Kraagor monster (the Kraken obviously).
Belkar marches in the armies of the Dark One. That afterlife battle is bound to happen.
Belkar the Undead, must be Tsukiko's favourite.

[Kish]

So what storyline could be interesting for Belkar without breathing?

...or being in the world?

[-Sentinel-]

Why is everyone expecting Belkar to die soon? The Oracle said he would die within one in-comic year, but I doubt it will take more than a few in-comic months to wrap up the plot. He could very well die in the final confrontation, in a few hundred strips, without leaving a gap in the party (at least, not for too long). In fact I'll be rather surprised if a member of the Order dies long before the climax, although it remains a possibility.


And I'm very skeptical about all this nitpicky search of loopholes in the prophecy. To me, it sounds like some Belkar fans are desperately grasping to straws. But maybe I'm myself biased by the fact that I dislike Belkar and certainly will not mourn his passing.

[Kish]

Why is everyone expecting Belkar to die soon? The Oracle said he would die within one in-comic year,

And Roy said at the end of Don't Split the Party that there was only seven weeks left in the time the prophecy gave Belkar.

And I'm very skeptical about all this nitpicky search of loopholes in the prophecy. To me, it sounds like some Belkar fans are desperately grasping to straws.

I agree.

[Scarlet Knight]

I suspect Belkar will be around until the final battle.

The story will end, and so will the comic. :smallfrown:

[The Pilgrim]

And Roy said at the end of Don't Split the Party that there was only seven weeks left in the time the prophecy gave Belkar.

And Redcloack back in #702 said that the first anniversary of their conquest of Azure City would be in six weeks.

I bet, BTW that:
- Either Belkar dies doing something so stupid/evil/both that the rest of the party decides to not ressurect him.

or

- Either Belkar attemps to "save" some member of the OOTS, in accordance to his new "look like a team-player" ploy, thinking he'll be safe himself, but screws over, ends killed in a gruesome way and can't be ressurected.

The second theory is fun because the rest of the OOTS would think he had really changed.

[pinwiz]

I think we'll follow belkar to the afterlife and maybe use that to get some more development with the IFCC. I like belkar in the comic, simply because of his outragous behavior.

My other theory is that he'll suddenly ascend to be the god of war, but i'm probably grasping at straws here :smallwink:

[-Sentinel-]

And Roy said at the end of Don't Split the Party that there was only seven weeks left in the time the prophecy gave Belkar.
...Oh wait, just went back to strip 572 and realized that the oracle actually said "before the end of the year", not "within a year". I was wondering if I had somehow missed a huge time-skip. Silly me... :smalltongue:

[Kumo]

And Roy said at the end of Don't Split the Party that there was only seven weeks left in the time the prophecy gave Belkar.

Why do you assume that refers to the prophecy? :smallconfused: i always assumed it meant Roy had some big overarching strategy that would end with Xykon destroyed in 7 weeks.

[Mystic Muse]

Why do you assume that refers to the prophecy? :smallconfused: i always assumed it meant Roy had some big overarching strategy that would end with Xykon destroyed in 7 weeks.

Nope. Key words are "run out the clock" and the reference to a guy in a black cloak with a big scythe which is a common representation of the angel of death/the grim reaper. He's hoping they can beat Xykon in seven weeks but he's definitely referring to Belkar's death.

[Shatteredtower]

A random, inconsequential death fits Belkar just fine, for it makes an elegant contrast with his usual pretense.

If by pretense, you mean the story and humour purposes to which he's contributed, elegant is not the word. Yes, you hate him, but it doesn't change what he's brought to the table for the writer and a lot of readers.

Much as I'd miss contributions, I'd be fine if he died tomorrow, so long as it's not done half-assed, as with a random, panel-by knifing.

Can't we compromise here? Finished too quickly to utter more than, "Crap," beaten effortlessly and painfully, and abandoned without remorse or lament by his companions? Seems lacking to me, but thin broth is better than a bowl of warm water trying to pass as soup.

[SPoD]

All of the strips from #260 to #484 took less than two weeks of in-universe time, and that was before the Order had access to travel magic like Wind Walk. There's no reason to think that the entire rest of the comic (or close to it) could not fit within seven weeks and that Belkar will make it to the Final Battle with Xykon.

Example: The current subplot leads the OOTS to Girard after a week of misunderstandings with the Empire of Blood. They Wind Walk directly there, but just as they meet Girard, Xykon and Co. teleport in. Big battle that lasts dozens of strips but only takes an hour or two of time. Gate is destroyed somehow. Xykon teleports away, the OOTS Wind Walk to the dwarven lands. Durkon-related subplot for a few days, then enter Kraagor's dungeon. Dungeon exploring for a few days. Final showdown with Xykon. Belkar dies. Xykon dies. OOTS ends with weeks to spare.

So, I don't think there will be any need to imagine the OOTS without Belkar, because I think Belkar's death will be at or around the climax of the entire series.

[Mastikator]

Randomly killing off a main character is bad for any narrative. What if Roy were prophesied to die (forever) and it was some random one-off person? That would suck, wouldn't it?

You know what would suck even more? Foreshadowing Belkar's death on multiple occations for hundreds of strips into the past over and over and then letting him live. It would be terrible writing of Rich to let him live. And serious weaksauce if he used some convoluted plan to let him continue as an undead.
I have too much respect for Rich as a writer to believe that Belkar won't die, if he wasn't planning on killing Belkar, then he wouldn't had foreshadowed it.

[SPoD]

It seems as if there are four basic possibilities with Belkar:

1.) Belkar not dying, but leaving the strip soon (because they left him on the Snarl World as a vampire, for example)

2.) Belkar dying soon, but not leaving the strip at all (continuing on as a Roy-style ghost, or the narrative following him to the Abyss, or having his spirit possess Mr. Scruffy or something).

3.) Belkar dying and leaving the strip, but it not happening until the last 25 or so strips of the entire series.

4.) Belkar dying and leaving the strip, soon.

It seems to me that the people who are most gleeful at the thought of Belkar's demise will only be satisfied with #4. And I think that is a really unrealistic expectation given that Rich has explicitly stated that if Miko had killed Belkar we would have followed Belkar to the Abyss. Is it possible that he's changed his mind since then? Sure. But it seems a poor thing to stake your entire opinion of Rich as a writer on.

[LuisDantas]

If by pretense, you mean the story and humour purposes to which he's contributed, elegant is not the word. Yes, you hate him, but it doesn't change what he's brought to the table for the writer and a lot of readers.

That's certainly true. And truth be told, Belkar is close to his finest as of the latest strips. His humor is at an all-time peak, his ways are far less ascerbic than usual.

Still, Belkar is the one who makes speeches of being a SSGoW, who fancies himself a hero during the fight against the Thieves' Guild, who kills gnomes out of whims. Heck, he even makes a point of not bothering to remember the name of the rogue he mated with in Graysky City.

So yes, a random, unnoticed death suits him quite elegantly.


Much as I'd miss contributions, I'd be fine if he died tomorrow, so long as it's not done half-assed, as with a random, panel-by knifing.

Can't we compromise here? Finished too quickly to utter more than, "Crap," beaten effortlessly and painfully, and abandoned without remorse or lament by his companions? Seems lacking to me, but thin broth is better than a bowl of warm water trying to pass as soup.

Belkar is not a character well-suited to compromises, far as I can tell.

[Kumo]

Belkar is not a character well-suited to compromises, far as I can tell.

Good thing you're not Belkar, then.

[Shatteredtower]

Belkar is not a character well-suited to compromises, far as I can tell.

He isn't the one I asked to meet me half way.

And again, what would be just for the character wouldn't be just for the tale. As for the gnome, that was brilliant work on the author's part, with meaning beyond "Belkar is despicable."

[Qubanz]

Well, I think readership wise killing Belkar off would not be a terribly great idea, considering it WILL cause some people to stop reading.

But me, I think ultimately the comic could probably remain interesting without Belkar. He is funny though, and he's a fan favourite. Even if he's not necessarily a personal favourite for me, I still think he's funny too. And there aren't many characters that outright funny as he is.

However if they killed of Xykon (which will probably happen eventually too.) And V as well. (I don't think they'll kill him any time soon, but it could happen.) Then I think it would also be time to wrap up the storyline. Because I don't think I'd personally find it to interesting any more without either of those characters around. (Xykon because I think he's hand's down the funniest character in the comic (And actually kind of underused!) And I find V the most interesting character.)


Actually though far as I'm concerned I'd like it if the comic would just stick to the party vs. Xykon. I'm not a huge fan so far of the latest sideplot with these lizards, and so far I'm not thinking that it's going to win me over.

I think ultimately I'm definitly in the 'less plot, more funny' group as well as the 'less sidestories, more mainstory' group.

[LuisDantas]

He isn't the one I asked to meet me half way.

And again, what would be just for the character wouldn't be just for the tale. As for the gnome, that was brilliant work on the author's part, with meaning beyond "Belkar is despicable."

Wouldn't such a compromise disappoint both of us? Sorry, I don't see the point in watering Belkar down so that his final strips are unsatisfying to both his fans and his detractors. Maybe I misundertood what you are proposing.

[RecklessFable]

I think we'll follow belkar to the afterlife and maybe use that to get some more development with the IFCC. I like belkar in the comic, simply because of his outragous behavior.

My other theory is that he'll suddenly ascend to be the god of war, but i'm probably grasping at straws here :smallwink:

Ohhhh duuuuuude. What if the plan of the IFCC is that Belkar ascends to become their defense against the Dark One! ROFL!

[Kobold-Bard]

Ohhhh duuuuuude. What if the plan of the IFCC is that Belkar ascends to become their defense against the Dark One! ROFL!

Nah I reckon he'll become part of the IFCC comics and can save enslaved V at the last second.

[John Cribati]

You know what would suck even more? Foreshadowing Belkar's death on multiple occations for hundreds of strips into the past over and over and then letting him live.

I have no problem with Belkar dying. I don't like him much either. I like some of his jokes, sure, but that's about all I can put up with concerning him. In fact, it's because of all that foreshadowing that a nameless random NPC killing him off would be a bad move, on a purely narrative standpoint. I'd be alright if he goes down fighting Nale or someone like that.

[Mastikator]

Ok, so it may or not be a random NPC that kills Belkar. And it may or may not be the case that we'll get to see him in his after life (though if we do, there's no reason to assume he'd affect the story in any real way as a ghost, Roy didn't while he was a ghost, Eugene didn't after Roy's sword was shattered, the part where he was summoned doesn't count). If we do get to see Belkar, I suspect it would only be fillers.

But none of that is relevant to the fact that Belkar is gonna die.

[Shatteredtower]

Wouldn't such a compromise disappoint both of us? Sorry, I don't see the point in watering Belkar down so that his final strips are unsatisfying to both his fans and his detractors. Maybe I misundertood what you are proposing.

Maybe. I accept that he's going to die and can accept the prospect of seeing him die in a hopeless position if it's sufficiently shocking (for example, seemingly betrayed by Roy, though we both know the most likely candidate, voluntary or otherwise, is someone else) or humourous. As much as I like some of his lines, I tend to laugh harder when he's the butt of someone else's joke.

Admittedly, neither of us gets to write him (I'd do a terrible job of it) and there's certainly no pleasing all of us, but I'm going to miss the halfling. Part of me sees the underdog in him and cheers that. Part of me recognizes the bully and is glad whenever he gets his comeuppance. He's got attitude I find amusing in art, though I'd as soon hit him in the nose with the clawed end of a hammer than have to deal with him in my every day life.

It's kind of like the difference between watching a disaster movie and living through a disaster. The performances and writing tend to be more amusing in the former case.

[KeybladePalidin]

I personally don't care that much for him. he doesn't do much for the plot. But him joining thwe IFCC sounds promising as his Heroic Sociopathy is he'd likely be a better antagonist. But what om Team Cleric Durkon? What if both of them died at the same time? Durkon's Death would grant him hapiiness but 'hid absence would cripple the team and make conflict more dramatic.

[John Cribati]

I personally don't care that much for him. he doesn't do much for the plot. But him joining thwe IFCC sounds promising as his Heroic Sociopathy is he'd likely be a better antagonist. But what om Team Cleric Durkon? What if both of them died at the same time? Durkon's Death would grant him hapiiness but 'hid absence would cripple the team and make conflict more dramatic.

I actually think Durkon's going to enter Dwarven lands before he dies- based on the use of the word "finally" in his prophecy question- and then have his body returned after he dies.

[riccaru]

Has anyone else thought of the alternative to death? the other cliche cop-out? Maybe the CHARACTER of Belkar dies, not actually Belkar. What I mean is that he may truly become a different person, giving up his given name in the process as it reminds him too much of his sordid past. Therefore, Belkar would take his last breath, while not actually dying as a character. It would probably be dissappointing to everyone involved (except you goody two-shoes types that wanna see the little guy get off scott free, but I don't think anyone actually wants that).

[Mystic Muse]

Has anyone else thought of the alternative to death? the other cliche cop-out? Maybe the CHARACTER of Belkar dies, not actually Belkar. What I mean is that he may truly become a different person, giving up his given name in the process as it reminds him too much of his sordid past. Therefore, Belkar would take his last breath, while not actually dying as a character. It would probably be dissappointing to everyone involved (except you goody two-shoes types that wanna see the little guy get off scott free, but I don't think anyone actually wants that).

Been brought up and shot down

[Kish]

Technically, I don't think we can disprove that. What we can do, is look at the character in the comic and say, "Belkar? Change so drastically that he counts as a completely different person? That will happen a week after Haley multiclasses to paladin and gives all her money away to charity, and two weeks after Miko rises from the dead and becomes an exemplar of Chaotic Good."

[Kumo]

Technically, I don't think we can disprove that. What we can do, is look at the character in the comic and say, "Belkar? Change so drastically that he counts as a completely different person? That will happen a week after Haley multiclasses to paladin and gives all her money away to charity, and two weeks after Miko rises from the dead and becomes an exemplar of Chaotic Good."

The difference being that Belkar is performing actions that are directly opposed to his previous character. He doesn't sincerely mean them in most cases (he does like mr.scruffy) but he's still DOING them and in at least one case getting positively rewarded for it.

In fact, assuming he doesn't live via cop out, i have a feeling Mr.Scruffy is going to be the reason he dies.

[Mind Fillet]

The difference being that Belkar is performing actions that are directly opposed to his previous character. He doesn't sincerely mean them in most cases (he does like mr.scruffy) but he's still DOING them and in at least one case getting positively rewarded for it.

In fact, assuming he doesn't live via cop out, i have a feeling Mr.Scruffy is going to be the reason he dies.


I could see that, totally. But Belkar sacrificing himself for anything...

[Herald Alberich]

I'd consider that more likely if the Oracle didn't hate Belkar and act as though his death would be literal ("I saw no reason not to have my fun where I could").

[Hendel]

He dies and is zombiefied by one of the EOB guys. Then he joins Team Evil. Or the Linear Guild.

This was my thought too. "Draws his last breath" and dies are not exactly the same thing. Couldn't he be killed and then raised as an undead by Tsukiko to work for Xykon?

The other option, and I am not sure if the Giant has ever commented on this, but he could simply end the series once he gets to a final story arc. That is, if he is satisfied with his body of work as it is at that time.

[Kirgoth]

Undead Belkar would also fit the prophecy.

[Kish]

Undead Belkar would also fit the prophecy as long as he wasn't in the world.

[Castamir]

Could we get rid of Elan instead?

Belkar: a kick-ass funny character who's a novel concept story-wise.
Elan: a worthless annoying absolutely unfunny Jar Jar/Scrappy - alike. And an idiot. I hate idiots.

If he has to end up happy... drop him into Elysium stupor or anything. Anything to get the bugger out of our sight.

[Kish]

Could we get rid of Elan instead?

Get used to disappointment.

[Castamir]

Get used to disappointment.
Yeah, I know :smallannoyed:
But one can at least wish him a Ring of Bliss (http://oglaf.com/bliss/) (mostly SFW except for some swearing, in stark contrast with the rest of Oglaf).

[Red XIV]

Undead Belkar would also fit the prophecy as long as he wasn't in the world.
Except that being raised as a zombie doesn't actually restore Belkar. It just reanimates his corpse. Belkar's soul would still be down in the Abyss.

[Herald Alberich]

Except that being raised as a zombie doesn't actually restore Belkar. It just reanimates his corpse. Belkar's soul would still be down in the Abyss.

That would defeat the story purpose of an undead Belkar, though: to keep him in the story. We'd need a more intelligent undead like a vampire for that, and then he'd still be in the world.

[Ted The Bug]

I actually think that he's less of an impediment than is generally seen. Face is, he's a pretty powerful warrior, and even though he's a horrible little nightmare of a person, the Order may actually wish they had his fighting prowess.
Although my guess is that he dies doing something bad/stupid enough to turn the Order against him.

[hamishspence]

Some undead aren't native to the world- but are extraplanar. Maybe he could become one of those?

[Swordpriest]

Well, I have absolutely no idea what's going to happen. All I know is that Rich is planning it, so it's going to be something totally unexpected. :smallcool:

Especially since Roy is expecting the prophecy to pan out in the most direct, obvious way. That means it probably won't. :smallwink:

[RowanE]

I'm not sure if it makes him powerful under d&d rules, but comic 611, and 439, make him a badass. Don't think the other characters have had such badass moment, so i'd say belkar is my favourite character. So i hope he gets a really badass death too. Can't see any way he'll avoid the prophecy though, so i guess he'll stay dead.

[Big Hungry Joe]

OoTS without Belkar will be a pretty dry, humorless place. You'll have an increasingly awkward romance between Haley and Elan, Durkon's one-note tree jokes, Roy as straight man foil and incompetent strategist, and V as a humbled divorcee. Belkar may be an unlikable personality, but he's clearly a catalyst for a lot of adventures and hijinks. He actually lights Miko on fire for pete's sake, and even tried to trigger her fall before she got around to it herself. To be honest, a Belkar/O-Chul spin off buddy picture may be our only option.

And I'm still unconvinced the "prophecy" is as air-tight as generally assumed. The oracle's cryptic, plausible-in-hindsight predictions are downloaded from Tiamat, not some objective source. If anything, the memory charm might be around to help OoTS forget they're basically getting marching orders from a chaotic evil deity. In any event, even if Belkar really does draw his last breath and leave the world, didn't we see a whole other world inside the Rift?

[Svella]

There are quite a few ways to circumvent the prophecy about Belkar. Let's see :

- he will become a golem : golems don't breathe, prophecy fulfilled ... nah, Roy has been there, done that. I doubt this will be a recurring theme.

- he will become an undead : undeads don't breath, prophecy fulfilled. I think that fate is reserved for Durkon. Who will return to his homelands after he dies and will bring death and destruction to his people. "An undead Durkon who takes Xykon's place and leads the goblins to victory over the dwarves" fits those two prophecies just too well :)

- a simple way for Belkar to fulfill his prophecy by himself : pretending character growth and assuming a new identity. BAM, Belkar got erased and there's a new halfling in town. Or he might become posessed / mind wiped or something like that. (dominated - I'm sure he's into THAT stuff)

- or some tree loving druid foolishly decides to reincarnate Belkar and come next morning, Belkar the Treant lord shows up .. want would Durkon do ? :)

I think it's way too early to say our goodbyes to Belkar.

[Kobold-Bard]

Alternatively he dies and stays on in the Fiends storylines. He's dead so not breathing, but still remains a part of the comic (and then there's my personal opinion that he'll get a big thing in the "V working for the Fiends" thing, possibly saving her, or doing just enough to get out of the Abyss).

Unless Rich has really turned against Belkar as a character I can't see him just erasing one of the main characters.

[Kish]

There are quite a few ways to circumvent the prophecy about Belkar. Let's see :
Now come up with one that doesn't ignore the "not long for the world" part of the prophecy. (Other than the frankly silly "he's going to change his name, which the Oracle of Xykon Is In His Throne Room somehow decided would do for Belkar, a.k.a. The Halfling, a.k.a. Your Friend, drawing his last breath ever and not being long for the world.")

[Kranden]

Roy wont tell Belkar because if he does then whatever Belkar would do differently would end up getting him killed and Roy would somehow be the cause of the death because you cant change a prophecy.